Knockouts Better Off Without Love?

[Pedro08]

It's not just Lacey. It's the other one as well – Madison Rayne. I can't ever remember her name because she's fucking awful – equally as bad as Lacey Von Erich.

Rayne reminds me of Mickey James. Just so god damn boring, and has the personality of a fuckin' dial tone.

Hell, Velvet Sky ain't no Bret Hart in the ring herself, either. That whole squad hit their spots like a feather punches the air.

So in a nutshell, yeah, they're doomed. It's time to end the charade, because without Love, there is no Beautiful People. Love carried them in the ring, and without an in-ring presence, they're nothing more than glorified bull horns.

While I agree that Rayne may be lacking in the charisma department, to say that she is equally as bad as Lacy is nuts. Madison has a solid background on the Indy circuit and is decent in the ring.

However, without Angelina Love, it only a matter of time before TBP are done. They have lost 3 straight PPV matches to Sarita/Wilde cleanly, so how could they be taken seriously as threats to win the tag titles. However, due to the lack of another tag team to challenge for the titles, TBP may get continue to get title shots.

I've read that Angelina is starting to make appearences for some Indy promotions. If this means that her visa issues are all cleared up, then TNA should re-sign her ASAP. If Dixie is serious about challenging the WWE, the she should have the strongest possible roster and reforming TBP with Angelina Love does that.

 

[wrestling fan 666]

I personally thought that Christy Hemme would have been the best fit to replace Love. She really fits the same persona when it comes to mic skills and hotness. What the beautiful people need is a leader. When they lost love, they lost their leader. Lacy is the WWE eye candy type but she is no leader. The group needs direction. So far Reign nor Velvet have done that.

You took the words right out of my mouth. BP need a leader, not a bunch of followers. Lacey just sucks-which is too bad considering her heritage. She doesn't have the drive or heart to want to be a wrestler. Her main problem is she's careless-one of these days she's going to seriously hurt someone because her lack of professionalism. Madison Rayne is so meant to wrestle in high schools. She has potential, but is too green yet to be thrust into the lead heel role...and I agree that TNA would've dropped her ass if Love never got into trouble.

I am and will always be a fan of Velvet. She can wrestle, she established a great character; but she doesn't have what it takes to lead the BP. I feel bad for her because she and Angelina worked hard to perfect that gimmick and suddenly she was thrust into this "by the way, you're now working with Madison and Lacey" who by just watching TNA, can tell they have absolutely no chemistry.

Who should've been picked instead of Madison and Lacey? Christie is at the top of the list in the Madison role (prior to Love leaving) and Sarita as the new leader. She has the looks and skills to pull it off.

If they continue with the current line-up, they are done. Too bad too.

 

[Travaje]

They have been irrelevant for several months now, just like most of the "knockouts". If Velvet Sky is a good worker, they should have her work, but my guess is without TBP the bookers wouldn't be able to come up with a program or a spot for her. If she were a face, she'd be another Taylor Wilde...somewhat pretty, and totally forgettable.

They should just drop the whole ladies division altogether. They really do take spots away from guys who can actually perform. TNA cannot market their women wrestlers like the WWE can, so it's pointless. In the WWE, they wrestle so they can market them as swimsuit models. They don't have them be swimsuit models so they can wrestle. TNA can do neither. And Awesome Kong going to WWE would not work either.

IMO, the only person that could get TBP over was Lauren. And she don't wrestle!

 

[NSL]

We just went an entire show without the Beautiful People stepping foot in the Impact Zone, and Kong and Tara (after a solid PPV match) were also nowhere to be seen.

You know what happened? Business went on as usual. Sarita v. Alissa and Hamada v. Taylor still got loud pops and a few minutes each to go, and they both delivered. We even got a Traci appearance, and somehow, she got a rise from the crowd.

The more time that goes by, the more and more the KOs are realizing they don't need Angelina Love. Oh..The ODB segment? Let's just pretend that didn't happen. I have no explanation for that.

 

[Awesomekong]

The idea is pretty simple here: Do you think the KOs are better without Angelina Love around? She was getting a lot of TV time, and let's face it, she was average in the ring, and was easy on the eyes. Her promo segments were good, but I'd reach and say Velvet was the better of the two there.

Without Angelina around, KOs like Kong, Tara, Alissa, Hamada, and ODB have had time to appear on TV, show their skills, and get a following. The match between Alissa and Hamada a few weeks ago was better than anythign she ever did, and Tara, ODB, and Kong have all worked to making the KO belt important again.

You thoughts...?

I don't believe that Angelina being around would have affected Tara and Awesome Kong etc. much... it seems The Beautiful People were destined to rule the tag team division, with Angelina gone, The beautiful people are unable to carry the division. I truly believe the team of Angelina & Velvet, along with Sarita & Taylor were scripted to birth the division.

The feuds would have pretty much been what we are currently seeing, with TBP the current tag title holders.

 

[Kenny Powers]

I don't think The Knockouts lost anything when Love left, but they certainly didn't gain anything with Lacey. Rayne doesn't bother me, and I love TBP's entrance. Lacey just annoys me to hell with her acting and dancing. After their match at Turning Point, she literally put ODB"s hair in her crotch and started dancing around. She is clueless.

TNA has so much talent in the Knockouts that one or two leaving doesn't really matter. The Knockouts Division took a blow when Gail Kim left, but soon after TNA signed Wilde, Sarita, Hamada, and Flash. I don't think TBP is better without Love, but the rest of The Knockouts can take or leave her.

 

[maar130]

The whole idea is that the less we get the BP in the ring, the more time the other KOs get to showcase themselves. Instead of 3 BP segments, and maybe a KO match per week, we're getting 1 BP segment, and 2 or 3 matches involving KOs each week. If Angelina were still there, there would be no Hamada, Alissa would not get TV time, and that means Raisha is still with Kong, who wouldn't be running over the division, and ODB would certainly not be champ, and she's really come on lately.

It's a big snowball effect...Angelina at the top just isn't right for the division.

Well that is not really something true to a whole extend because Alissa was already in before she was gone, same with Hamada.

The effect would be less crap matches in the KOs division and more meaningful ones.

Angelina was bringging a different kind of heel that Kong portraits and that was a good thing, not only would you had the Monster heel but also the one that is sneaky and needs help to win from her stable.

Also, she played well when she was squashed by the likes of Kong or Tara.

She brough credbility as contender for the Tag titles along with Velvet Sky, after she was gone, there is no tag team there for the champions to fight since the new BP can't make any kind of combination that can portrait a credible contender for that.

Daffney is involved in another kind of angle and she was hurt, even when Angelina was there, she had a rivalry with Wilde so they were ok.

Thing was that since Angelina was the best of the BP, she was starting to look stale there, she needed them to help her character out but they were also holding her back.

I thing the Division nows lacks of a big heel character because Kong being the only credible heel just does not cut it, she is great but she can't do it all.

Unless Flash starts winning matches, she would be the "very physical, but no more than a jobber girl", which is crap because Cheer Leader Melissa deserves way better than that.

Also the BP does not even deserves one Segment per show now, They did when Angelina was around. Madison is good in the ring but has not develop a reason to really care about her, Velvet has charisma but is average in the ring (Sorry but Angelina is way better eventhough she is no Alissa Flash) and Lacey is hot but sucks the life out that ring when she is in there. Like everyone has pointed out, That chokeslam was awful and it was mostly because of Lacey.

So all in all, Angelina was good for the KOs division in my view, only time will tell if Lacey can improve and make herself worth anything for the division, just don't get your hopes up for that.

 

[maar130]

I personally thought that Christy Hemme would have been the best fit to replace Love. She really fits the same persona when it comes to mic skills and hotness. What the beautiful people need is a leader. When they lost love, they lost their leader. Lacy is the WWE eye candy type but she is no leader. The group needs direction. So far Reign nor Velvet have done that.

I agree with you to some extend since Christy is good on the Mick but I thing the result would be pretty much the same, a crappy BP.

Also, not take it on TNA but you mentioned that Lacey was the WWE eye candy kind of girl and well, they fired her, so that tells you how much of a liability she was.

I know they got rid of Love and Wilde as well but at least they keep them for a long time allowing them to be on DSW ( they got 3 prospects there, Love, Wilde and Krissy Vaine, the choose Vaine but she later quit because she coul not handle the schedual) while Lacey was on Developmental only 4 moths not doing much.

 

[NSL]

This part of the post was off-topic, so I took my reply here...

TBP aren't nearly as effective of a trio without Angelina Love, and that hurts them tremendously. Lacey's future as a singles competitor would be about as successful as attempting to fit a square peg in a round hole, IMO. She's far and away the worst in-ring worker TNA has under employment right now, and beauty can only take you so far.

I happen to like them as a trio without Angelina. She was alright, but she was essentially Triple H of the Knockouts division. It was never said by her or TNA, but that's how it was booked. She needed to be at the top. It's as if they thought the company would tank without her getting 10 minutes of TV time a week.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

This part of the post was off-topic, so I took my reply here...

I happen to like them as a trio without Angelina. She was alright, but she was essentially Triple H of the Knockouts division. It was never said by her or TNA, but that's how it was booked. She needed to be at the top. It's as if they thought the company would tank without her getting 10 minutes of TV time a week.

And rightfully so, IMO. She was the most marketable face, and the only real wrestling talent in the squad, so why not push her like they did? She put on incredible wrestling matches. Isn't that what we watch for? Wrestling? Yeah, the tits and ass eye candy thing is nice from time-to-time, but when it boils down to it, male or female, you have to be able to wrestle with some level of competence, and Lacey can't. Angelina could.

 

[NSL]

And rightfully so, IMO. She was the most marketable face, and the only real wrestling talent in the squad, so why not push her like they did? She put on incredible wrestling matches. Isn't that what we watch for? Wrestling? Yeah, the tits and ass eye candy thing is nice from time-to-time, but when it boils down to it, male or female, you have to be able to wrestle with some level of competence, and Lacey can't. Angelina could.

Angelina was clearly the best in the Beautiful People, but she was in a group at the top of what TNA had, and looking at the current roster, she'd be average.

Sarita, Alissa, Hamada, and Kong all make her look bad by comparison. Taylor, Tara, ODB, Velvet, and Daffney would all be in the 2nd tier with Angelina. I'm not saying she'd be in the middle of that pack, but that's where she'd be. Madison, Christy, Traci, and Lacey would be the bottom few. Madison doesn't deserve to be ranked that low, but with a stacked roster, it's hard to come up with a reason for putting her in sensible feuds with the ladies in the middle.

When she left, I could understand being worried about the status of the division, but by no means was the sky falling.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I don't see the value in Madison Rayne at all. She's moderately better than Traci Brooks in the ring, IMO, with a personality and look that falls somewhere between Traci's breast implants and Hemme's temperament. To be quite honest, when TNA started booking her as a face against TBP a few months ago, I started fast-forwarding through all her segments. I just don't care. She's as vanilla as vanilla gets to me.

Love may have been on top with the top stable, and perhaps only because she was with the top stable, but IMO, even without Sky, she'd still seed in the Tier 1 of the Knockouts division were she still in TNA.

Tier 1 ODB, Alissa, Kong, Tara, Love
Tier 2 Sarita, Taylor Wilde, Hamada, Daffney, Hemme
Tier 3 Velvet Sky, Traci Brooks, Madison Rayne
Tier 4 Lacey Von Erich

 

[younghov]

i honestly mean this when i say that angelina love was the reason i used to watch tna since shes been gone it hasent been as good and since hogan joined its been pretty s**t apart from bfg

 

[Super Crazy]

To be honest, I've totally forgotten about Angelina Love. She was the best of what they had going when she was around, and she was the best member of the Beautiful People. Looking at the current Knockout roster, she's by far not the best. I agree with everyone and their " Tiers" although I would put Hemme in Tier 3 with her FFG or whatever the move is called. Either way, the Knockout division has been great lately, and they make me actually have an interest in women's wrestling. Alissa Flash for 2010 Breakout star in the Knockout Division!!!

 

[Viola Moonlight]

Are the KO's better off without Love? Quite frankly it doesn't matter either way. Angelina Love was nothing special without the Beautiful People and probably would not have made it solo in TNA as she needs a tag team partner to make her feel relevant. Sure, she has some skills in the ring and good promo work... but again, all that was done inside of the BP alongside Velvet Sky who always held up her side of the promo's (sometimes outdoing Love in the process).

As of right now, the current incarnation of the Beautiful People (assuming Lacey von Erich is nothing more than eye candy and a valet, although I know she has been portrayed being more than that) is just as effective as the old one. Madison Rayne is as good as a wrestler than Love, has the better appearance by far and suits being in a stable with the word Beautiful in it. Velvet Sky has got the talents to lead the BP and is becoming quite the wrestler in the ring. The only thing wrong with the BP right now is how they have been booked to lose every match, but I guess that's what heels and consistent TV time/promo's should do to you in the business (see Alissa Flash).

Could not care less whether Love came back or not, but there is apart of me that misses the Love/Sky combination. Love's place in TNA is with the BP. Since the now BP cut a promo saying they didn't like Love and bashed her name, there is little chance she will come back to that stable.

 

[Tenta]

I don't understand the concept of taking away talent making the promotion better. Whether or not people realize it, Love and The Beautiful People were easily identifiable TNA products to the mass media. The Beautiful People attracted people to TNA. I know that was the case for me. I don't understand how taking away talent that brings in an audience can make your product better. Now, granted, the Beautiful People are still around, but it's not nearly the same. Now when people think of TBP, they think of hotness, and LAcey Von Erich's botchtastic abilities. TBP are being pushed further down the TNA KO's card, and that's never a good thing. At one point, TBP were the hottest (no pun intended) thing going in TNA. Now, that's been reversed on itself, and it's no longer the case. Now, they merely job out to other KO's, and aren't even close to the draw they used to be.

Also, while more KO"s get more TV time, what's lost is a heel to draw heat off of, which makes the faces more effective. Can you sit here and tell me you still find TBP as entertaining in this incarnation? Because I know that Angelina made TBP far more entertaining, just be her presence. Now, I just don't care as much for Velvet and Co. as much as I used to, and that's never a good thing for TNA's product.

Bottom line, all of TNA suffers from Angelina's absence

 

[NSL]

Also, while more KO"s get more TV time, what's lost is a heel to draw heat off of, which makes the faces more effective.

All the Knockouts need to feed off of is Awesome Kong as the heel. It's been done before, and it worked. Add in that Alissa and Traci are both firmly in tweener category, and Hamada is working out a turn, and you have a decently stacked card.

Velvet and Madison are starting to show their true ring skills, and if they start getting more ring time, you have 2 more big heels to throw into the mix. So, yes...Taking Angelina away, and letting the rest of the card shine, is a good thing.

The Beautiful People are not as good, and that's fine. They were never really more than they are now anyway. They're a constant "segment". Even their matches, and Angelina's title reign, were nothing but segment after segment. Their matches were bad, even if Angelina could work with anyone. It was the same thing over and over again, and it was getting stale.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

Whether or not people realize it, Love and The Beautiful People were easily identifiable TNA products to the mass media. The Beautiful People attracted people to TNA.

Sure it did, TBP was one of the reasons I became a TNA lover and many people liked the fact that women were getting a proper gimmick as well as a formidable stable that had men as their valets or pieces of eye candy (not the other way around). Sure, TBP were considered to be the hottest things going around and did so much to the KO's division. But, it is purely not Love being forced to leave TNA that has done this Tentz, its the booking team.

When BP first started off coming to the ring being introduced as the BP, it was fresh, interesting and creative (as should always be when creating a new stable) wanted to push them hard. Love and Sky got the job done, becoming a big commodity for the division to the point where they trusted Love with the KO's title. When Love left, it seemed everything about the BP fizzled out and now just use them like they do with most heels... allow them to make promos and seem dominant, only to have the good guys win.

You can't honestly sit there and say whole-heartedly that the reason for the sinking ship of the BP is due to Angelina? As I stated before, she is not special at all apart from her mic work. TNA management did a good way of covering for the Love loss early on by assigning Madison Rayne to take over as she can wrestle as good as Love, whilst still fitting into her persona. Sure, she might not be as good on the stick as Love but Sky has got that covered. What happened after that? Creative pulled the plug on allowing the BP to get the victory to win the Tag Team Championships. Ever since, they just made them lower on the card despite Velvet and Madison vastly improving themselves ring-wise.

The BP can attract people to TNA and be the mass media sensation it once was if creative allowed them a much better start to the second incarnation. Lacey could have been used as a valet only and used her last name to endorse them, with Velvet/Rayne doing the in-ring work and having the mic time. Sky is an excellent heel worker, with Rayne not too far from the ball neither. It's creative's fault the BP suck right now... Love was just coincidentally there to go along with the ride whilst the group was hot.

 

[Tenta]

You can't honestly sit there and say whole-heartedly that the reason for the sinking ship of the BP is due to Angelina?

Well, let's look back at your post, only two sentences earlier

When Love left, it seemed everything about the BP fizzled out and now just use them like they do with most heels... allow them to make promos and seem dominant, only to have the good guys win.

And that isn't any reason to believe that the BP aren't getting the push, because Angelina left?

As I stated before, she is not special at all apart from her mic work. TNA management did a good way of covering for the Love loss early on by assigning Madison Rayne to take over as she can wrestle as good as Love, whilst still fitting into her persona.

And within all that, Madison just can't get the heat Angelina and Velvet had. You really mean to tell me that the BP are getting half the reaction they used to? Bullshit.

Anyway, Madison is decent in the ring, but the issue is chemistry. Her and Velvet just don't have any chemistry together. Velvet and Angelina, meanwhile, worked so well together. They were so in synch with one another, that the audience picked up on it, and loved it. Now, you have Sky and Rayne, who just aren't meshing as well, and now you've added Lacey, who's watered down the BP even more.

Sure, she might not be as good on the stick as Love but Sky has got that covered. What happened after that? Creative pulled the plug on allowing the BP to get the victory to win the Tag Team Championships. Ever since, they just made them lower on the card despite Velvet and Madison vastly improving themselves ring-wise.

So let me get this straight.... They added a solid ring worker, who was arguably the fourth best worker of the KO's (that's saying something), and you add the botchtastic Lacey, and they get better in the ring?

Where is the logic, again?

The BP can attract people to TNA and be the mass media sensation it once was if creative allowed them a much better start to the second incarnation. Lacey could have been used as a valet only and used her last name to endorse them, with Velvet/Rayne doing the in-ring work and having the mic time. Sky is an excellent heel worker, with Rayne not too far from the ball neither. It's creative's fault the BP suck right now... Love was just coincidentally there to go along with the ride whilst the group was hot.

Hmm... A fundamentalist theory. Just as easily, I could counter with an intentionalist argument:

TNA realizes that this incarnation of the BP just isn't as good, and thus, the BP are being relegated to lower in the card.

Doesn't that make much more sense?

 

[Tenta]

All the Knockouts need to feed off of is Awesome Kong as the heel. It's been done before, and it worked. Add in that Alissa and Traci are both firmly in tweener category, and Hamada is working out a turn, and you have a decently stacked card.

Velvet and Madison are starting to show their true ring skills, and if they start getting more ring time, you have 2 more big heels to throw into the mix. So, yes...Taking Angelina away, and letting the rest of the card shine, is a good thing.

The Beautiful People are not as good, and that's fine. They were never really more than they are now anyway. They're a constant "segment". Even their matches, and Angelina's title reign, were nothing but segment after segment. Their matches were bad, even if Angelina could work with anyone. It was the same thing over and over again, and it was getting stale.

If that's your argument, NSL, I'd change the name of this thread. This thread insinuates that Love's departure has made the Knockouts better, which isn't the case. Again, you can't lose talent, and become better. Now, what would make a better argument is that TNA has brought in Tara, allowed Raisha Saaed to be more than Kong's bag carrier, let Traci back into the ring, and signed on Hamada. I'd be much more accepting to say these reasons are why TNA's knockouts are better.

Not because one of their better talent's has left.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

Me, contradicting myself? Or, just you not understanding? You do realise that I was speaking in terms of the company using the BP in how they want to puppetise them, instead of them having free range at having the chance to suck themselves?

And within all that, Madison just can't get the heat Angelina and Velvet had. You really mean to tell me that the BP are getting half the reaction they used to? Bullshit.

Did I say reactions? Putting words in my mouth to try and convey your argument? Never heard of that one before...

Anyway, Madison is decent in the ring, but the issue is chemistry. Her and Velvet just don't have any chemistry together. Velvet and Angelina, meanwhile, worked so well together. They were so in synch with one another, that the audience picked up on it, and loved it. Now, you have Sky and Rayne, who just aren't meshing as well, and now you've added Lacey, who's watered down the BP even more.

Yeah, that's why TNA had to implement so many new characters to the scene of the old school BP time and time again to refresh the stable. I mean, they had Kip James, Moose Knuckles, Madison Rayne, Awesome Kong & Raisha Saeed, & Kevin Nash...

Madison for her age is an exceptionally great wrestler and has a lot more to off in the ring than Velvet. If you check both girls sheets, Madison understands what chemistry means as she was the first ever SHIMMER Tag Champions under the monika Ashley Lane for a very long time. She is still in a tag team there and knows how to work. Proven by Velvet's success, she is also a well-versed tag team wrestler. It does take time to get into sync with each other as a tag team, not happening overnight Tentz. As of right now, there are becoming a great team again and understanding how to work together. Come back in a few months time when they have had the proper time to become a tag team and we'll discuss whether they have chemistry or not.

As for Lacey, TNA has no idea how to use her and in turn, is not doing anything herself with what TNA is feeding her. They should place Lacey into the valeting position and be used to interfere in matches only, not ever stepping into the ring. Then, you'll see what she is truly capable of.

So let me get this straight.... They added a solid ring worker, who was arguably the fourth best worker of the KO's (that's saying something), and you add the botchtastic Lacey, and they get better in the ring?

Where is the logic, again?

Madison Rayne is on par, maybe even better than Angelina Love in the ring. Velvet Sky then was relatively hit & miss at times. Now she is the leader, she has vastly improved. So... yes, they have gotten better in the ring. Do you see Velvet botching as much as she used to?

Again, Lacey is a topic that we could go back and forth on. All Lacey basically is... is a piece of eye candy that has valeting experience (indy work) and a last name. With the addition of the ugly stick, why not just put her there and keep her away from the ring? Sounds more logically and she will have a huge effect on the BP, allowing Rayne/Sky to do the in-ring stuff, and the promo's.

Hmm... A fundamentalist theory. Just as easily, I could counter with an intentionalist argument:

TNA realizes that this incarnation of the BP just isn't as good, and thus, the BP are being relegated to lower in the card.

Doesn't that make much more sense?

This makes as much sense as putting Daffney as a valet and Flash as a heel jobber. Sure, it gives them time on the TV and allows them to develop their characters, but all of them deserve to be competing in the ring at a higher position on the cards and given the opportunities could give the KO's division a revitalisation. Daffney is a veteran of the business, Flash has been hailed as one of the woman of this generation of wrestlers (in reference to her as Melissa Anderson) and the BP are a legit female stable that has proven successful, something most other female stables can't do. With the MR & VS proving themselves, they could easily be featured more prominently than they are currently.

 

[NSL]

TNA realizes that this incarnation of the BP just isn't as good, and thus, the BP are being relegated to lower in the card.

This is, as IC would put it, "smoke and mirrors". They're not as good. But, that's not to say the original was either. The original incarnation was "bought" by the masses because there was plenty of tits and ass to go around. Not because they were legit in-ring workers tearing up the scene.

If that's your argument, NSL, I'd change the name of this thread. This thread insinuates that Love's departure has made the Knockouts better, which isn't the case. Again, you can't lose talent, and become better. Now, what would make a better argument is that TNA has brought in Tara, allowed Raisha Saaed to be more than Kong's bag carrier, let Traci back into the ring, and signed on Hamada. I'd be much more accepting to say these reasons are why TNA's knockouts are better.

Not because one of their better talent's has left.

You didn't read the OP, did you? I said that Angelina being gone and out of the way has allowed the division to grow. Sure, they could have brought in the new talent anyway (Hamada, Alissa, and Sarita being the only new talent), but would they have been used the same, or been as successful?

Hamada is known for her stiff work, and her ability to take bumps. Do you really think Angelina or Velvet would have been laid out on that table for Hamada to hit the picture perfect moonsault? She would have been hairsprayed, laid out, and then gotten a paper bag over her head.

Alissa would never have been "created", because there would be no need for Raisha to leave Kong. This takes Kong out of the Knockout title picture, and takes away one of the best in the division.

Sarita would have still arrived, and been relegated to the "mid-card". She wuld not have won the tag titles, and after a feud over the belts, would have had nothing to do.

Angelina leaving was a domino effect. It let the seeds that were there blossom, and allowed new ones to be planted. If she comes back, like she says, then she'll fit into the Beautiful People, and be in a much different division. One that doesn't revolve around her. Then we'll see how it works out.

 

[Tenta]

Me, contradicting myself? Or, just you not understanding? You do realise that I was speaking in terms of the company using the BP in how they want to puppetise them, instead of them having free range at having the chance to suck themselves?

Yes, I realize exactly what you're saying. You were stating bullshit along the lines that TNA was dropping the ball on TBP.

Did it ever occur to you that they did that for a reason? There's a reason people get pushed; because their getting over. And this crop of the BP just isn't getting over.

Which, again, is bad for business.

Did I say reactions? Putting words in my mouth to try and convey your argument? Never heard of that one before...

Way to skirt the issue. Like, really, you just sidestepped the whole argument by a country mile. So since I've called you out on it, riddle me this... Where has that pop for the BP people gone?

Yeah, that's why TNA had to implement so many new characters to the scene of the old school BP time and time again to refresh the stable. I mean, they had Kip James, Moose Knuckles, Madison Rayne, Awesome Kong & Raisha Saeed, & Kevin Nash...

I'm sorry, but I think you're confusing "members" with "angles". All of those, exceot for Madison Rayne, were fucking angles, Mames. How hard is that to understand?

Madison for her age is an exceptionally great wrestler and has a lot more to off in the ring than Velvet. If you check both girls sheets, Madison understands what chemistry means as she was the first ever SHIMMER Tag Champions under the monika Ashley Lane for a very long time.

That's very different from working a big time promotion with what used to be the hottest gimmick in the promotion. You can't base past tag teams of this team's success. This is a whole different subject.

She is still in a tag team there and knows how to work. Proven by Velvet's success, she is also a well-versed tag team wrestler. It does take time to get into sync with each other as a tag team, not happening overnight Tentz. As of right now, there are becoming a great team again and understanding how to work together. Come back in a few months time when they have had the proper time to become a tag team and we'll discuss whether they have chemistry or not.

Well, all well and dandy, but we're talking about the hear and now, Mames. Seriously, we can't care about months from now. The point is, right now, the BP are not entertaining. And you can attribute that to the departure of Angelina.

As for Lacey, TNA has no idea how to use her and in turn, is not doing anything herself with what TNA is feeding her. They should place Lacey into the valeting position and be used to interfere in matches only, not ever stepping into the ring. Then, you'll see what she is truly capable of.

Oh... you're serious...

Again, so you've just admitted Lacey doesn't know how to work. Which leaves an average Madison and an average Velvet Sky, who have no chemistry, and aren't getting over.

What point are you trying to make again?

Madison Rayne is on par, maybe even better than Angelina Love in the ring. Velvet Sky then was relatively hit & miss at times. Now she is the leader, she has vastly improved. So... yes, they have gotten better in the ring. Do you see Velvet botching as much as she used to?

Hit or miss? When's the last time you saw Velvet do anything that wasn't a punch, kick, rest hold, or take a poor bump? Really?

Again, Lacey is a topic that we could go back and forth on. All Lacey basically is... is a piece of eye candy that has valeting experience (indy work) and a last name. With the addition of the ugly stick, why not just put her there and keep her away from the ring? Sounds more logically and she will have a huge effect on the BP, allowing Rayne/Sky to do the in-ring stuff, and the promo's.

So again, you're left with average workers, and one decent promo cutters. Look, there's a reason they threw Lacey in there... Because once again, Madison and Velvet were not getting over. Get it through your skull.

And besides that, none of this explains why the knockouts are better. all it says is that The Beautifule People are worse. And since they are TNA's draw, you can only assume that a poorly drawing BP is bad for business.

This makes as much sense as putting Daffney as a valet and Flash as a heel jobber. Sure, it gives them time on the TV and allows them to develop their characters, but all of them deserve to be competing in the ring at a higher position on the cards and given the opportunities could give the KO's division a revitalisation. Daffney is a veteran of the business, Flash has been hailed as one of the woman of this generation of wrestlers (in reference to her as Melissa Anderson) and the BP are a legit female stable that has proven successful, something most other female stables can't do. With the MR & VS proving themselves, they could easily be featured more prominently than they are currently.

Yet they aren't.

Why? Because Creative realizes they're worse, and has decided to bump them down the card.

Simple.

 

[Tenta]

This is, as IC would put it, "smoke and mirrors". They're not as good. But, that's not to say the original was either. The original incarnation was "bought" by the masses because there was plenty of tits and ass to go around. Not because they were legit in-ring workers tearing up the scene.

Again, as IC will also say (See, I can pull IC quotes, too ) all that matters is getting over. And week in and week out, that's what TBP did, probably better than anyone else in TNA.

You didn't read the OP, did you?

Actually, I did. Still don't agree.

I said that Angelina being gone and out of the way has allowed the division to grow. Sure, they could have brought in the new talent anyway (Hamada, Alissa, and Sarita being the only new talent), but would they have been used the same, or been as successful?

If given the chance to work with an over heel, who can draw heat, yes, they could have been more successful.

And again, that over heel was Angelina Love and Velvet Sky. Alas, with Angelina gone, Velvet is nowhere near as effective. Thus, everyone loses out.

Hamada is known for her stiff work, and her ability to take bumps. Do you really think Angelina or Velvet would have been laid out on that table for Hamada to hit the picture perfect moonsault? She would have been hairsprayed, laid out, and then gotten a paper bag over her head.

You seem to be missing Wrestling Psychology 101, NSL:

The Face is always going to get the upper hand. Period. Sure, TBP would have gotten heat, but yes, Hamada would have eventually gotten over on the BP. Because that's what faces do; they give the cocky heel their comeuppance.

Alissa would never have been "created", because there would be no need for Raisha to leave Kong. This takes Kong out of the Knockout title picture, and takes away one of the best in the division.

I fail to see exactly how The BP fits into this. This seems more a Raisha/Kong issue.

Sarita would have still arrived, and been relegated to the "mid-card". She wuld not have won the tag titles, and after a feud over the belts, would have had nothing to do.

And again, you know who her first angle would have been with, I guarantee.

Ta-Da! The Beautiful People. And if not her first angle, certainly another angle soon.


And eventually, due to what we know of Wrestling Psychology 101, she would have eventually gone over the cocky heels.

Angelina leaving was a domino effect. It let the seeds that were there blossom, and allowed new ones to be planted. If she comes back, like she says, then she'll fit into the Beautiful People, and be in a much different division. One that doesn't revolve around her. Then we'll see how it works out.

So now we have a division of workers, but no one getting mad over, by getting the BP rub? Again, I don't think the BP succeeded, kayfabe wise, as much as you're letting on. As a matter of fact, The BP always took their comeuppance. And with how white hot they were, that can only be good for any knockout that works with them.

 

[NSL]

The Face is always going to get the upper hand. Period. Sure, TBP would have gotten heat, but yes, Hamada would have eventually gotten over on the BP. Because that's what faces do; they give the cocky heel their comeuppance.

Sure, Hamada would have eventually gotten over, but do you think it would have been with a moonsault through a table on the outside? No. There's no way Angelina takes that bump. In fact, there's no way any Knockout not named Alissa, Kong, or Daffney takes that bump.

Hamada is where she is now, because she kicked Alissa Flash's ass. There's no denying that.

I fail to see exactly how The BP fits into this. This seems more a Raisha/Kong issue.

Awesome Kong needed to be the monster heel again, because there was no other top heel in the division. It was a roster of faces against Madison and Velvet. Kong couldn't be the monster heel with Raisha holding the reins, so they worked out a new character for her, and slowly phased her out of the picture with Kong.

And again, you know who her first angle would have been with, I guarantee.

Ta-Da! The Beautiful People. And if not her first angle, certainly another angle soon.


And eventually, due to what we know of Wrestling Psychology 101, she would have eventually gone over the cocky heels.

I know her first feud would have been with the Beautiful People. i'm not ******ed.

Do you really think her and Taylor would have still won the gold, or held the belts for 2+ months like they are now? Those belts were made for the Beautiful People, and because Angelina wasn't there, Sarita and Taylor got their chance to run with it.

So now we have a division of workers, but no one getting mad over, by getting the BP rub? Again, I don't think the BP succeeded, kayfabe wise, as much as you're letting on. As a matter of fact, The BP always took their comeuppance. And with how white hot they were, that can only be good for any knockout that works with them.

Hamada got "mad over" by taking out Alissa. Tara got "mad over" by leaping off a cage. Kong got "mad over" by tossing Raisha off the stage. Daffney got "mad over" by taking a chokeslam through barbwire.

All without Angelina...