Knockouts Better Off Without Love?

[CaptainZaltan]

Regardless of AL's abilities compared to the rest of the KO division, the fact is, Love was the best in-ring worker of the BP. And the BP were/are the best heel stable in the knockouts division. There really aren't any heels even comparable to the BP in the division (Kong is sort of a tweener, btw). Hotness aside, the group is a great idea, have a great presence and appeal, and they cut good promos. Angelina could back that up in the ring to a greater degree than her partners. I don't think its even debatable that the best case scenario in wrestling is to utilize people who can work both in story and in the ring. Angelina allowed the BP to do that. Therefore, losing her really hurt the BP, and the Knockouts division as a whole.

Lacey is hot, but she can't work a match or the mic like Angelina could. Velvet Sky was already providing sufficient eye-candy for the faction.....I think having a decent worker in the faction is more beneficial than a second person filling the same role.

 

[NSL]

Raise your hands, and be honest, if you would PAY to see a Taylor Wild for Lacey match. Anybody? Didn't think so. Now what about a Lita vs Kong fued? Nothing? Cool. What about Trish Stratus vs ODB?Maybe?

Taylor Wilde v. Lacey is absurd as an option, and you know this. Taylor is committed to tag wrestling, and Lacey is committed to choreographed entrances.

Lita v Kong would probably be the best feud ever, and I can't believe you overlooked that. Lita was loved, even as Edge's valet, and people now still wish they could see her in the ring. Pitting her as a face against a monster Kong would be epic.

Trish v. ODB would be great. Trish as the prissy petite blonde, and ODB...Not. The matches would work, and they'd have a great base to work off of.

In other words...Thank you for proving my point.

There really aren't any heels even comparable to the BP in the division (Kong is sort of a tweener, btw).

Tweener? Did you even watch Impact? She attacked anyone and everyone, regardless of "alignment". She's a monster heel, and everyone is in her path. Her compared to the KO division is like Kane was before he went soft, or even Undertaker during the stable era of WWE. She can dominate anyone at any time, in any match, and people will pay to see it.

 

[Dexter]

Raise your hands, and be honest, if you would PAY to see a Taylor Wild for Lacey match. Anybody? Didn't think so. Now what about a Lita vs Kong fued? Nothing? Cool. What about Trish Stratus vs ODB?Maybe?

Now, what about Trish Stratus vs Beautiful People with Love. Bingo. Money. That would be a GREAT feud, fantastic mic work, excellent in ring performances by Trish and that's what wrestling is all about. Making the fans happy while making money. Making it, and keeping it. You make it through stars, ratings, and sponsors. Love made TNA money. Her segments were the highest, cause she was entertaining. Nobody gives a crap about Wild, Lacey, or ODB even though I lover her so much, or Victoria. People loved to see Angelina. But because she couldn't be a good female wrestler like Victoria, or Wild she is no longer needed? You need MORE of Angelina Love than those two put together. And until TNA figures out pure wrestling won't get you anywhere without great characters, they will forever be behind ECW, Smackdown and Raw

This is full of so many false assumptions and errors I don't even know where to start.

Yeah, I'd pay to see Lita vs Kong if they set it up right. Not sure what the hell that even has to do with anything as Lita isn't even around anymore, but whatever. False assumption #1.

I very seriously doubt you have ANY notion of what makes TNA money. Love may or may not have made them a dime. I don't know, neither do you. False assumption #2.

I very much give a crap about Wilde, ODB and Victoria. Lacey, no, but we've been over that at length in this thread. False assumption #3.

Also, it's totally false that TNA will never be as big as ECW. They're bigger. ECW did a 1.0 this week. TNA did a 1.3. Moral of the story? A TNA show beat a WWE show. Granted it's the C show but you have to start somewhere and I'm anxious to see where it goes from here.

 

[CaptainZaltan]

Tweener? Did you even watch Impact?

No, I'm on vacation. Still, Austin used to kick the crap out of heel and face alike. I don't think being booked as a wrecking machine makes you either heel or face by default.

 

[Dexter]

No, I'm on vacation. Still, Austin used to kick the crap out of heel and face alike. I don't think being booked as a wrecking machine makes you either heel or face by default.

I'm gonna actually back you up on this and disagree with NSL. She could easily be considered a tweener. It really doesn't matter though. The point is she's fucking interesting. When her music hits, I wake the hell up and pay attention because I know something is about to happen that I'm going to want to see.

 

[NSL]

No, I'm on vacation. Still, Austin used to kick the crap out of heel and face alike. I don't think being booked as a wrecking machine makes you either heel or face by default.

It's not by default, but it definitely aligns you. Austin broke down the walls between face and heel, allowing the Attitude Era to blossom. He was loved by the fans, and because he kicked his boss's ass, he was a face. If he never feuded with Vince, but still dominated the division, he'd have been a heel.

Kong on the other hand, is a heel, and we all know this. She wants to injure and maim. She doesn't care who you are, she wants to cause you great bodily harm. There's nothing she could do to make her seem like a face, except maybe take out Lacey, and stop her from dragging down a segment every week.

I apologize for jumping on you for not watching...It was a great show for Kong though.

 

[X]

So aslong as Lacey and the watered down BP get TV time, promo time, ring time, I say the division isn't better not having Angelina. They suck and are bringing the division down. Having Lacey & Velvet stumble around, and botch, and look like they have no idea what's going on makes the Knockout division look like the Diva's division.

I don't understand all of the hate I'm reading for Velvet Sky. She's really not that bad in the ring at all, much, much better than Lacey, and Madison Rayne is a very good worker. The only thing that's missing now that Angelina is gone is a dynamic leader with great mic skills, but if given enough time Velvet could take over that role pretty easily, she's not bad on the mic herself either.

I miss Angelina Love, but the division is still good. I'd rather be seeing Angelina than ODB or Kong though, that's for sure.

 

[CaptainZaltan]

Agreed on Kong. I love her. But I still think having a 100% solidified heel helps any division, and I really don't see a suitable replacement for Angelina in that role. Regardless of what Kong does in the ring, she is always going to have a sizeable fanbase based on her dominance in the KO division. And she's been booked like a tweener lately....losing her heel manager, refusing to cheat in a match, yet beating up the faces, etc (mind you i didnt watch impact). I'm not saying that theres nobody in the KO division that could step up to fill Angelina's shoes...just that noone has done so yet. I would be all for TNA booking Daphne or a heel Tara in this position. Still, I think Angelina had a nice mix of hot/bitch/talented that worked very well for the division, and will be hard to replicate.

 

[NSL]

I don't understand all of the hate I'm reading for Velvet Sky. She's really not that bad in the ring at all, much, much better than Lacey, and Madison Rayne is a very good worker. The only thing that's missing now that Angelina is gone is a dynamic leader with great mic skills, but if given enough time Velvet could take over that role pretty easily, she's not bad on the mic herself either.

i'm n ot putting any major heat on Velvet. I love her promos, and her offense has always been solid. It's her selling that throws off some of her matches, as you can see her set up a spot a mile away, even quicker than you see it in the X Division. I used to blame this on inferior opponents, but it got bad for a while. I'll admit she did damn good in the match against Hamada and ODB though. Maybe it really was just an issue of not hving talent to work with.

I wouldn't go as far as saying Madison is "very good", but she's certainly not horrible. She's watchable at best for me, simply because she's not up to par with most of the other talent in the division. It's not really her fault, she's just a weak link. I liked the idea of her going face, but then Angelina fucked up, and that's that...

 

[Dexter]

But I still think having a 100% solidified heel helps any division, and I really don't see a suitable replacement for Angelina in that role.

Is a real heel needed eventually? Absolutely. Right now? Maybe not. Stay tuned. I'm liking what they're doing so far with the Tara/Kong/ODB triangle around the KO title. There's no real heel there, but it's still been damned fun to watch thus far with Tara and Kong just beating the shit out of each other at every opportunity and ODB kinda watching and staying out of it for the most part, but you know full well she's next.

When they eventually get around to making a solidified heel though... damn, there's a ton of possibilities. My #1 nomination for that would be Alissa Flash. She's not been of much importance thus far but it wouldn't take much to put her on a hot streak and make her relevant, and she's already entertaining.

 

[Dexter]

I wouldn't go as far as saying Madison is "very good", but she's certainly not horrible. She's watchable at best for me, simply because she's not up to par with most of the other talent in the division. It's not really her fault, she's just a weak link. I liked the idea of her going face, but then Angelina fucked up, and that's that...

This. True of her AND Velvet. In a vacuum, they're decent. Compared to most of the WWE locker room, they're the fucking second coming of Bret Hart. But compared to the rest of the KO division, like NSL said, they're the weak link.

There's nothing necessarily wrong with that. Someone has to be. But for being the weak links, they sure as hell get a lot of TV time.

 

[NSL]

Is a real heel needed eventually? Absolutely. Right now? Maybe not. Stay tuned. I'm liking what they're doing so far with the Tara/Kong/ODB triangle around the KO title. There's no real heel there, but it's still been damned fun to watch thus far with Tara and Kong just beating the shit out of each other at every opportunity and ODB kinda watching and staying out of it for the most part, but you know full well she's next.

As far as having a #1 heel, you're both right. It's not needed right now, but once this triangle is done, one needs to emerge. They can't all come out of it smelling like roses, or nothing will be accomplished. Of the 3, Kong is that heel. Tara is well loved, and ODB is working too good as a face to just turn on a whim.

When they eventually get around to making a solidified heel though... damn, there's a ton of possibilities. My #1 nomination for that would be Alissa Flash. She's not been of much importance thus far but it wouldn't take much to put her on a hot streak and make her relevant, and she's already entertaining.

I agree, and you know my love for Alissa knows no bounds, but I don't know if she can be "the" #1 heel. She's a great character, and works some amazing matches, but her losing streak is preventing her from going too far. If they turn it around, and have her just straight-up out-wrestle the competition, then it's a good move. Until then, I like her in the role she's playing.

 

[NSL]

This. True of her AND Velvet. In a vacuum, they're decent. Compared to most of the WWE locker room, they're the fucking second coming of Bret Hart. But compared to the rest of the KO division, like NSL said, they're the weak link.

2nd Coming of Bret Hart? Really? That's a bit of a reach...Although I do agree that Velvet could walk in and whip on just about everyone but Beth, Nattie, and Melina. Once upon a time Mickie would wipe the floor with her, but she's gone downhill.

They're both solid, and made a name for themselves in the indy circuits, which is hard to do as a female...

There's nothing necessarily wrong with that. Someone has to be. But for being the weak links, they sure as hell get a lot of TV time.

This. (Just returning the acknowledgment). But seriously, it's true. They're basically mid-carders, getting main event time. They can work a feud, which keeps them on TV, but when it comes to in-ring work, they simply can't keep up with the likes of the titleholders.

 

[CaptainZaltan]

Allissa could be very interesting if they reveal that she has been Raisha all along. This would automatically set up a hot feud with Kong while ODB/Tara could feud for the title. After this, she would be in a great position to contend for the KO title.

Ill agree that the KO division still has plenty of options for turning out great heels. I personally don't feel that the BP can cut the mustard without Angelina right now, though. And given the strength of the faction as an idea and on the mic, I would hate to see them moved backwards. It kind of reminds me of LAX after they lost Konnan...they kind of took a step backwards and it took a while for them to regain there footing. Obviously noone is really to blame for the Angelina situation, but given the topic of discussion, I personally feel the KO division is left weaker (at least currently) for her departure.

 

[X]

I wouldn't go as far as saying Madison is "very good", but she's certainly not horrible. She's watchable at best for me, simply because she's not up to par with most of the other talent in the division. It's not really her fault, she's just a weak link. I liked the idea of her going face, but then Angelina fucked up, and that's that...

If you look up her work before joining TNA in Shimmer, you'd see that Ashley Lane (Madison Rayne) is actually a very good wrestler. She hasn't had any chance to showcase those skills yet in TNA.

 

[NSL]

Allissa could be very interesting if they reveal that she has been Raisha all along. This would automatically set up a hot feud with Kong while ODB/Tara could feud for the title. After this, she would be in a great position to contend for the KO title.

Revealing she was Raisha all along was what I was hoping for, causing Kong to snap and go to exactly where she is now. They used a shortcut, which is fine, because Alissa is still getting TV time while Kong goes on her tear. Pitting them in a feud would be great, especially since Alissa and her have both worked together in the indies, and know each other better than any other 2 KOs do.

Putting her in line for the title would be brilliant, but I think we're not going to get that until Tara has the belt. Kong will move on to feuding with ODB, or whoever else, and Tara will be at the top with the belt. Alissa and her match up well, and it would be entertaining TV if their match Thursday was any indication.

I personally feel the KO division is left weaker (at least currently) for her departure.

You've made good points backing this, so let me pose this question: When Angelina left, did you think the KOs would be this strong 2 months later? Did you really see the champs set the way they are, with the rest of the division going strong?

Or, did you see them falling on their faces, like myself, and a lot of other people did?

 

[CaptainZaltan]

Just to add to that last post (and considering what you guys have been saying a little more), I don't think by any stretch that the KO division will implode without Angelina. The ODB/Kong/Tara feud is plenty entertaining to keep the division going for the time being. I just lament the loss of any good heel that can bring something special to a given division. Still, I think that we will see Angelina return sooner or later. And the KO division may very well end up stronger for her absence if TNA can build new heels in the division without having to push Angelina aside. A feud between a returning Angelina and the new dominant heel like Flash could be sweet.

 

[NSL]

If you look up her work before joining TNA in Shimmer, you'd see that Ashley Lane (Madison Rayne) is actually a very good wrestler. She hasn't had any chance to showcase those skills yet in TNA.

I didn't say it in the post you quoted, but somewhere I gave her props for what she did in the indies. I've seen a lot of matches from her prior to her arrival. Forget who you're talking to?

She worked a lot of matches with some real top notch talent, and those matches were solid...For the indies. TNA isn't exactly knocking on #1's door, but they are a national company, and "great for the indies" doesn't automatically equal "amazing for the big time". I was liking where her face turn was going, and wish she would have had time to work a full angle.

 

[NSL]

Just to add to that last post (and considering what you guys have been saying a little more), I don't think by any stretch that the KO division will implode without Angelina. The ODB/Kong/Tara feud is plenty entertaining to keep the division going for the time being. I just lament the loss of any good heel that can bring something special to a given division. Still, I think that we will see Angelina return sooner or later. And the KO division may very well end up stronger for her absence if TNA can build new heels in the division without having to push Angelina aside. A feud between a returning Angelina and the new dominant heel like Flash could be sweet.

If/when she does return, I'd like to see her feud with someone like Alissa or Kong without the BP backing her up. It'd show what she really has on her own, and set her up for the rest of her tenure in TNA.

I'd also like to see her feud with the BP. If/when she comes back, she'd probably assume her place is safe, but the BP could play it off that they don't need her. This sets her up as a face, and she can dominate them before going on to feuding with top heels in the company.

This is all a big "what if", but her time away has done a lot of good for the division, and if she can slide right in without crumbling it down, it'll be for the better.

 

[NSL]

I have to give this question a resounding "yes", yet again.

The Knockouts got a ton of TV time tonight, and every one that appeared had a chance to shine, without Angelina taking any of the spotlight. The Beautiful People had a chance to team with Kong, and Madison and Velvet started to show signs of why they were so highly touted coming out of the indys. Lacey still sucks, but at least she was limited.

Every other KO had her time to shine, grasped it, and didn't let go. With 2 big matches at Turning Point, I expect that trend to continue.

 

[pattycat22]

I actually started watching TNA because of TBP (also followed Love during her Mid-South days) and I truly miss her. She had such charisma. TBP seem lacking now-even though Velvet is still good and Madison's doing her best. Lacey is extremely beautiful, but just has no presence-in the ring or or out of it. She's like a blank space. I cringe every time she wrestles. I also hate to see TBP relegated to skits and promos-I suspect, mainly because of Lacey. I think they certainly miss Love's talent. And even though Velvet's got a great butt; no one quite rivaled Love in that department either. The KO division is definetly more boring to me now-I usually forward matches that do not feature either the TBP or one of my other faves-like Sarita or Flash...

 

[Mitch Henessey]

I was reading the results last night for Turning Point, and I noticed there was an anti-Lacey Von Erich sentiment from the crowd during the the TNA Knockouts championship and Tag Titles match. I read that there were loud "you can't wrestle" chants directed towards Lacey, and anti-Lacey signs also.

Lacey is pretty bad in the ring, but I don't think that's the only problem. Velvet and Angelina had that whole BFF thing going on, and at the same time they were in the process of hazing or kicking Madison out of the group. All of that was very interesting to watch. Even before Lacey came into the picture Madison and Velvet just didn't seem as exciting to watch anymore.

What I'm wondering is that if Lacey doesn't work out, and TNA decides to replace her, then will the BFP be doomed? Think about it, they've already lost their star member, and if they start randomly trying to replace her, then the BFP won't have that same mystique or edge they use to have. And with the anti-Lacey movement seemingly in full swing, how long do you think it will be before it becomes a PROBLEM? So what I'm trying to say is, Are the BFP on the path of a break-up?

 

[It's Damn Real!]

It's not just Lacey. It's the other one as well – Madison Rayne. I can't ever remember her name because she's fucking awful – equally as bad as Lacey Von Erich.

Rayne reminds me of Mickey James. Just so god damn boring, and has the personality of a fuckin' dial tone.

Hell, Velvet Sky ain't no Bret Hart in the ring herself, either. That whole squad hit their spots like a feather punches the air.

So in a nutshell, yeah, they're doomed. It's time to end the charade, because without Love, there is no Beautiful People. Love carried them in the ring, and without an in-ring presence, they're nothing more than glorified bull horns.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

In the end, I'd probably have to say yes if Angelina Love doesn't return to TNA sometime in the near future. She and Velvet Sky had a kind of natural charisma with each other. I very much could buy into the idea that they were a couple of hot, mean girl bitches that were best friends. They both have characters that fed off of the other and just made the whole thing work.

Madison Raine and Lacey Von Erich do not bring that dynamic to the group. They stuck Raine back with the BP because they didn't have shit all else to do with her and Lacey was brought in simply because she's drop dead gorgeous and the hope that she could help fill the void.

 

[Randy Jesus]

In the end, I'd probably have to say yes if Angelina Love doesn't return to TNA sometime in the near future. She and Velvet Sky had a kind of natural charisma with each other. I very much could buy into the idea that they were a couple of hot, mean girl bitches that were best friends. They both have characters that fed off of the other and just made the whole thing work.

Madison Raine and Lacey Von Erich do not bring that dynamic to the group. They stuck Raine back with the BP because they didn't have shit all else to do with her and Lacey was brought in simply because she's drop dead gorgeous and the hope that she could help fill the void.

I personally thought that Christy Hemme would have been the best fit to replace Love. She really fits the same persona when it comes to mic skills and hotness. What the beautiful people need is a leader. When they lost love, they lost their leader. Lacy is the WWE eye candy type but she is no leader. The group needs direction. So far Reign nor Velvet have done that.