KB Answers Wrestling Questions

[Remix]

In fairness, how many of those those victories were clean?

 

[klunderbunker]

In fairness, how many of those those victories were clean?

Summerslam 2012 was.

Also, Punk is a heel. Clean or dirty makes no difference.

 

[Remix]

Summerslam 2012 was.

Yes it was, except that Show was the guy who finished off Cena. That's kosher in a triple threat match, but it's hardly Punk proving he's better than Cena once and for all.

Also, Punk is a heel. Clean or dirty makes no difference.

To him, no. To the story of Punk vs Cena it's very important.

 

[klunderbunker]

Yes it was, except that Show was the guy who finished off Cena. That's kosher in a triple threat match, but it's hardly Punk proving he's better than Cena once and for all.

Means nothing at all. Punk won and didn't break any rules.

To him, no. To the story of Punk vs Cena it's very important.

Not really, because it's not going to validate Punk at all if he beats Cena in the Cell. Punk has already beaten him multiple times, but that's still not good enough for some reason.

 

[SD619]

Should Cena tweak his entrance theme? "Your time is up, my time is now" hardly seems appropriate for someone that has been the face of the company for almost a decade.

 

[Remix]

Means nothing at all. Punk won and didn't break any rules.

He won, he pinned Cena. However, he didn't beat Cena. Show beat him, Punk just picked the bones. Saying Punk beat Cena clean in that match is like crediting a pack of Hyenas with killing an antelope after a hunter shot it.

They get the meat, which matters but they didn't exactly kill it either.

Not really, because it's not going to validate Punk at all if he beats Cena in the Cell. Punk has already beaten him multiple times, but that's still not good enough for some reason.

It kind of would. Let me explain. Throughout Punk's reign, he's never been shown as being better than Cena. At NoC, he won because of the interferance by Vince and Johnny, at SS '11 Cena's foot was under the rope (also, Nash happened). After that they went into separate feuds, Punk's only victories being tainted.

As a face, Punk continually played second fiddle to Cena, despite being the reigning WWE champ and "Best in the World". This led to his heel turn. However, at no point in the process has he proven himself to be better than Cena. That's what the entire angle's about. He's only beaten Cena when there was a bad call (SS '11) or someone else was involved (pretty much every other time, within the rules or not). Essentially, unless Punk can beat Cena without an asterisk (i.e. HiaC) he can't really call himself the best in the world (because he hasn't proven himself > Cena) and he's a paper champion (because Cena's still the top guy, regardless of what the belt says).

Make sense?

 

[klunderbunker]

Should Cena tweak his entrance theme? "Your time is up, my time is now" hardly seems appropriate for someone that has been the face of the company for almost a decade.

Nah that theme is iconic with him by now. It would be like changing Sexy Boy.

He won, he pinned Cena. However, he didn't beat Cena. Show beat him, Punk just picked the bones. Saying Punk beat Cena clean in that match is like crediting a pack of Hyenas with killing an antelope after a hunter shot it.

They get the meat, which matters but they didn't exactly kill it either.



It kind of would. Let me explain. Throughout Punk's reign, he's never been shown as being better than Cena. At NoC, he won because of the interferance by Vince and Johnny, at SS '11 Cena's foot was under the rope (also, Nash happened). After that they went into separate feuds, Punk's only victories being tainted.

As a face, Punk continually played second fiddle to Cena, despite being the reigning WWE champ and "Best in the World". This led to his heel turn. However, at no point in the process has he proven himself to be better than Cena. That's what the entire angle's about. He's only beaten Cena when there was a bad call (SS '11) or someone else was involved (pretty much every other time, within the rules or not). Essentially, unless Punk can beat Cena without an asterisk (i.e. HiaC) he can't really call himself the best in the world (because he hasn't proven himself > Cena) and he's a paper champion (because Cena's still the top guy, regardless of what the belt says).

Make sense?

In theory yes, in practicality no.

Punk's whole argument is that the title should mean he's the best in the world. In his mind, as long as he has the title, he's the best in the world. No matter how long he holds it, he's not going to be the best in the world because Cena is flat out better than he is. Punk doesn't need to beat Cena clean to convince himself. However, if the story keeps saying that he needs to validate his reign somehow make it look like Punk is right and that there's no respect for his accomplishments at all. The last thing you want to do is validate what a heel is saying. A heel is usually a heel because he's completely wrong yet believes he's right. If he's proven right, people might start sympathizing with him and that defeats the purpose of being a heel at all.

 

[Remix]

In theory yes, in practicality no.

Punk's whole argument is that the title should mean he's the best in the world. In his mind, as long as he has the title, he's the best in the world. No matter how long he holds it, he's not going to be the best in the world because Cena is flat out better than he is. Punk doesn't need to beat Cena clean to convince himself. However, if the story keeps saying that he needs to validate his reign somehow make it look like Punk is right and that there's no respect for his accomplishments at all. The last thing you want to do is validate what a heel is saying. A heel is usually a heel because he's completely wrong yet believes he's right. If he's proven right, people might start sympathizing with him and that defeats the purpose of being a heel at all.

Ah, thing is, I wouldn't book Punk to win at HiaC. This is my booking of the WWE title up to 'Mania.

• Cena beats Punk clean at HiaC
• Punk gets rematch at SurSer (as mandated by the complete hack's guide to booking).
• Rematch is a triple threat. Another heel, I'd use Barrett is the third man. You'll see why later.
• The finish of the match is Cena AAing Punk, with Barrett hitting Souvenir on Cena and dragging the KOed Punk over Cena*.
• Punk refuses to grant Cena a rematch*. Faces someone else at TLC and wins.
• Barrett is revealed to have been paid off by Punk*. He gets killed by Cena at TLC (again). He may or may not get in trouble for helping Punk. Depends on the plot.
• Punk loses the title to Rock at the Rumble. Rumble winner chooses to fight Sheamus. RAW EC is to pick who fights Rock at 'Mania. Cena wins, finally getting a chance to murderise Punk... and maybe Barrett again.
• Cena beats Rock at 'Mania for the WWE title.

In this Remixy World, Barrett gets inserted into the triple threat because he starts working for AJ next week. He gets the job in a conversation that goes something like this.

AJ: Wade, you're the only person I've spoken to who's always been honest to me. I'd like you to work for me to make sure that I do better.
Wade: Fine.
AJ: There's one condition though. You don't ever speak to me again like you did last week.
Wade: I'll speak to you however I like. Just because you're dressed up like the head teacher's doesn't mean I'm going to treat you like one.
AJ: Perfect! You're hired.

(End Segment)

He abuses the hell out of that power to get himself into the title match and keep Cena away from his title rematch (Punk's paying him handsomely). He avoids official sanctions because he told AJ that he'd accepted the payoff off-screen. Punk gets no rematch vs Rock as payback for Punk ducking Cena.

*This is a shameless rehashing of an FCW storyline/match that worked well. Barrett got paid off by Alex Riley in exactly the same manner. Riley being a typical cocky heel ducked Gabriel for a few months before getting put over damn strongly and moving on.

 

[klunderbunker]

Ah, thing is, I wouldn't book Punk to win at HiaC. This is my booking of the WWE title up to 'Mania.

• Cena beats Punk clean at HiaC
• Punk gets rematch at SurSer (as mandated by the complete hack's guide to booking).
• Rematch is a triple threat. Another heel, I'd use Barrett is the third man. You'll see why later.
• The finish of the match is Cena AAing Punk, with Barrett hitting Souvenir on Cena and dragging the KOed Punk over Cena*.
• Punk refuses to grant Cena a rematch*. Faces someone else at TLC and wins.
• Barrett is revealed to have been paid off by Punk*. He gets killed by Cena at TLC (again). He may or may not get in trouble for helping Punk. Depends on the plot.
• Punk loses the title to Rock at the Rumble. Rumble winner chooses to fight Sheamus. RAW EC is to pick who fights Rock at 'Mania. Cena wins, finally getting a chance to murderise Punk... and maybe Barrett again.
• Cena beats Rock at 'Mania for the WWE title.

In this Remixy World, Barrett gets inserted into the triple threat because he starts working for AJ next week. He gets the job in a conversation that goes something like this.

AJ: Wade, you're the only person I've spoken to who's always been honest to me. I'd like you to work for me to make sure that I do better.
Wade: Fine.
AJ: There's one condition though. You don't ever speak to me again like you did last week.
Wade: I'll speak to you however I like. Just because you're dressed up like the head teacher's doesn't mean I'm going to treat you like one.
AJ: Perfect! You're hired.

(End Segment)

He abuses the hell out of that power to get himself into the title match and keep Cena away from his title rematch (Punk's paying him handsomely). He avoids official sanctions because he told AJ that he'd accepted the payoff off-screen. Punk gets no rematch vs Rock as payback for Punk ducking Cena.

*This is a shameless rehashing of an FCW storyline/match that worked well. Barrett got paid off by Alex Riley in exactly the same manner. Riley being a typical cocky heel ducked Gabriel for a few months before getting put over damn strongly and moving on.

Few issues with that.

1. It validates Punk's point about having been champion for nearly a year and he still isn't in the main event of Wrestlemania.

2. It stops Barrett's push cold at TLC.

3. It devalues the title by having someone have the title right in front of them, which is what Barrett spent months trying to get one way or another, and then handing it over to Punk. That's the logic behind the Fingerpoke of Doom and that didn't go too well.

4. I can't stand triple threats.

5. Automatic rematch clauses need to die.

 

[Remix]

Few issues with that.

1. It validates Punk's point about having been champion for nearly a year and he still isn't in the main event of Wrestlemania.

It validates it by making it look like he was never in the ME of 'Mania because he was never good enough?

2. It stops Barrett's push cold at TLC.

It could be salvaged. Either by protecting him via the ending (i.e. table match + gravity), or quickly moving him onto a different programme so he doesn't lose too much momentum.

3. It devalues the title by having someone have the title right in front of them, which is what Barrett spent months trying to get one way or another, and then handing it over to Punk. That's the logic behind the Fingerpoke of Doom and that didn't go too well.

The Riley title reign worked pretty damn well though. If the angle's thought through and is done for a reason (beyond Hogan's creative control) it can work. It's consistent with Punk and Barrett's characters, screws over Cena in the most over the top fashion possible and as I say, it can work well.

4. I can't stand triple threats.

Tell me how Punk could cheat to win against Cena in a more blatant way without getting caught?

5. Automatic rematch clauses need to die.

But they won't. Like I say, it's in the complete hack's guide to booking.

 

[klunderbunker]

It validates it by making it look like he was never in the ME of 'Mania because he was never good enough?

Thereby making the last year and a half worthless. I know I'm not wild on triple threats but if there's ever been a setup for one, it's Punk vs. Rock vs. Cena at Mania 29. I'm not saying I'd go with it, but it's a possibility.

It could be salvaged. Either by protecting him via the ending (i.e. table match + gravity), or quickly moving him onto a different programme so he doesn't lose too much momentum.

Yeah it could be, but Barrett has never won anything major in all the time he's been in WWE. Winning NXT and an IC Title for like two months doesn't really mean anything and he needs a title reign of his own to validate being near the top for so long.

The Riley title reign worked pretty damn well though. If the angle's thought through and is done for a reason (beyond Hogan's creative control) it can work. It's consistent with Punk and Barrett's characters, screws over Cena in the most over the top fashion possible and as I say, it can work well.

It can, but I'm not sure it would. Also, Riley's reign isn't exactly the same as a guy having one of the longest WWE Championship reigns ever. You can get away with wackier storylines in smaller companies, but on the big stage it doesn't exactly work the same.

Tell me how Punk could cheat to win against Cena in a more blatant way without getting caught?

Inside the Cell? He could pay Barrett off and not lose the title in the first place. Having Barrett involved is fine, but not in the championship match and not having the title change. Having Punk facing Rock riding a 14 month title reign adds more intrigue than a 2 month one. Look back at WCW in 1997 with Luger winning the title in August, only to drop it back six days later. With Sting vs. Hogan on the horizon, having Hogan hold the belt consistently would have made the title change a bigger deal. Having Rock break Punk's reign when no one else could would make it a bigger deal.

But they won't. Like I say, it's in the complete hack's guide to booking.

Calling the WWE bookers hacks might be giving them too much credit.

 

[Remix]

Thereby making the last year and a half worthless. I know I'm not wild on triple threats but if there's ever been a setup for one, it's Punk vs. Rock vs. Cena at Mania 29. I'm not saying I'd go with it, but it's a possibility.

Heels overrate their own abilities and importance. Did Honkey Tonk Man getting murderised by Warrior make his reign pointless?

Yeah it could be, but Barrett has never won anything major in all the time he's been in WWE. Winning NXT and an IC Title for like two months doesn't really mean anything and he needs a title reign of his own to validate being near the top for so long.

Then shove him into an angle for the WHC and have him finally win the damn thing.

It can, but I'm not sure it would. Also, Riley's reign isn't exactly the same as a guy having one of the longest WWE Championship reigns ever. You can get away with wackier storylines in smaller companies, but on the big stage it doesn't exactly work the same.

Granted, but the circumstances are surprisingly similar. At the time Gabriel was in the second longest FCW title run ever after having the quickest rise to the top out of any FCW champion ever and had defended the title against a post-callup Sheamus. Contextually, he was having a monster push.

I see no reason why the angle couldn't work for the WWE title as long as it was thought through well.

Inside the Cell? He could pay Barrett off and not lose the title in the first place. Having Barrett involved is fine, but not in the championship match and not having the title change. Having Punk facing Rock riding a 14 month title reign adds more intrigue than a 2 month one. Look back at WCW in 1997 with Luger winning the title in August, only to drop it back six days later. With Sting vs. Hogan on the horizon, having Hogan hold the belt consistently would have made the title change a bigger deal. Having Rock break Punk's reign when no one else could would make it a bigger deal.

1) How can Punk cheat in an environment where weapons are not only encouraged, they're allowed? The point of having Barrett involved is to make it seem like Punk couldn't beat Cena. Therefore he called in some help.
2) I'm not booking Punk as a champion who's held onto the title through thick and thin. I'm booking him as a chickenshit heel who couldn't win a fair fight against a top tier face if his life depended on it.
3) If Punk wins in the Cell (i.e. fair and square) his programme with Cena ends.
4) Since I'm not booking Punk as a dominant champion, the length of the reign becomes less important.

Calling the WWE bookers hacks might be giving them too much credit.

Can you think of a better term?

 

[Remix]

Also, sidenote about Gabriel's FCW booking. He beat Sheamus for the FCW title. At the time the match aired, Sheamus was a month away from winning the WWE title.

 

[klunderbunker]

Heels overrate their own abilities and importance. Did Honkey Tonk Man getting murderised by Warrior make his reign pointless?

No, but that hadn't been dragged out for months with three PPV matches against the same opponent in a match that shouldn't be happening anyway.

Then shove him into an angle for the WHC and have him finally win the damn thing.

Thanks to WWE and the MITB case, that isn't likely to happen because they try to plan things so far in advance that it doesn't work.

Granted, but the circumstances are surprisingly similar. At the time Gabriel was in the second longest FCW title run ever after having the quickest rise to the top out of any FCW champion ever and had defended the title against a post-callup Sheamus. Contextually, he was having a monster push.

A monster push is a different thing. Punk's monster push was over a year ago.

I see no reason why the angle couldn't work for the WWE title as long as it was thought through well.

It would, but you just suggested WWE thinking something through. I think you can see the flaw in your arguments already. They can't remember plot points from two weeks ago.

1) How can Punk cheat in an environment where weapons are not only encouraged, they're allowed? The point of having Barrett involved is to make it seem like Punk couldn't beat Cena. Therefore he called in some help.

I'd be fine with Punk winning in the Cell. Then again, the Cell is one of the dumbest matches these two could have.

2) I'm not booking Punk as a champion who's held onto the title through thick and thin. I'm booking him as a chickenshit heel who couldn't win a fair fight against a top tier face if his life depended on it.

Which is the problem with most heels today: we haven't had a strong heel other than Mark Henry in I don't know how long. But all that did was give Smackdown its highest ratings in years and no one wants that.

3) If Punk wins in the Cell (i.e. fair and square) his programme with Cena ends.

I'd be surprised. WWE has a bad tendency to keep stories going way after someone wins dominantly. Look at Sheamus vs. Del Rio if you want proof of that.

4) Since I'm not booking Punk as a dominant champion, the length of the reign becomes less important.

Which is why the Rumble won't work as well with Punk as champion. Rock is walking out of the Rumble with the belt and it's going to look like everyone knew it was coming the entire time.

Can you think of a better term?

Not without being warned for flaming.

 

[Remix]

No, but that hadn't been dragged out for months with three PPV matches against the same opponent in a match that shouldn't be happening anyway.

Thanks to WWE and the MITB case, that isn't likely to happen because they try to plan things so far in advance that it doesn't work.

A little forward planning doesn't hurt, as long as there's a short term plan too.

A monster push is a different thing. Punk's monster push was over a year ago.

But when you're in a monster push, isn't protecting the pushee more important than protecting an established wrestler? If the angle can work to protect both the former (heavily pushed) champ and the current (also heavily pushed) champ. It should work here if nobody fucks up. Which is a big if.

It would, but you just suggested WWE thinking something through. I think you can see the flaw in your arguments already. They can't remember plot points from two weeks ago.

Hey, I booked this to take place in Remixy World. Just because they don't think doesn't mean I don't have to.

I'd be fine with Punk winning in the Cell. Then again, the Cell is one of the dumbest matches these two could have.

It's an actual feud. That puts it ahead of come of the recent Cell matches.

Which is the problem with most heels today: we haven't had a strong heel other than Mark Henry in I don't know how long. But all that did was give Smackdown its highest ratings in years and no one wants that.

Because it's hard to keep a strong heel as a strong heel without them becoming a face in the process. I couldn't see a heel Punk pulling off a Mark Henry run.

I'd be surprised. WWE has a bad tendency to keep stories going way after someone wins dominantly. Look at Sheamus vs. Del Rio if you want proof of that.

Eh, when the crux of the story is "you have to beat fair and square me to call yourself the best in the world" and you do just that, the story has nowhere else to go. ADR was able to hang in the title scene because the story didn't boil down to "the champion has to win before we can move on." It was about ADR bitching his way into match after match he didn't deserve. It worked there, (to an extent, because that shit got dull fast) it wouldn't here. But then, that's Remixy World logic.

Which is why the Rumble won't work as well with Punk as champion. Rock is walking out of the Rumble with the belt and it's going to look like everyone knew it was coming the entire time.

Predictability isn't always a bad thing.

Not without being warned for flaming.

 

[klunderbunker]

A little forward planning doesn't hurt, as long as there's a short term plan too.

That's fine, but it's not going to happen.

But when you're in a monster push, isn't protecting the pushee more important than protecting an established wrestler? If the angle can work to protect both the former (heavily pushed) champ and the current (also heavily pushed) champ. It should work here if nobody fucks up. Which is a big if.

It's not going to hurt Cena to lose. It isn't. Cena is to the poitn where he's bulletproof and he'll bounce back a day later.

It's an actual feud. That puts it ahead of come of the recent Cell matches.

Yeah, but the Cell is the completely wrong gimmick. Instead of being in a Cell, this should be an I Respect You match. But hey, the calendar says it's time for the Cell and that's all there is to it, which is the problem with gimmick PPVs.

Because it's hard to keep a strong heel as a strong heel without them becoming a face in the process. I couldn't see a heel Punk pulling off a Mark Henry run.

No it's not. Ted DiBiase was a strong heel and never came close to turning face. Yokozuna didn't turn face until long after his monster run ended. Mankind didn't with his monster push in 96. I could go on and on.

Eh, when the crux of the story is "you have to beat fair and square me to call yourself the best in the world" and you do just that, the story has nowhere else to go.

Then it shouldn't have kept going.

ADR was able to hang in the title scene because the story didn't boil down to "the champion has to win before we can move on." It was about ADR bitching his way into match after match he didn't deserve. It worked there, (to an extent, because that shit got dull fast) it wouldn't here. But then, that's Remixy World logic.

I see no way in which Sheamus vs. Del Rio worked at all.

Predictability isn't always a bad thing.

Not at all, but you don't always have Rock to bail out bad booking.

 

[Remix]

That's fine, but it's not going to happen.

No, it probably won't.

It's not going to hurt Cena to lose. It isn't. Cena is to the point where he's bulletproof and he'll bounce back a day later.

True. However I err sickeningly close to thinking heels should rarely, if ever win clean.

Yeah, but the Cell is the completely wrong gimmick. Instead of being in a Cell, this should be an I Respect You match. But hey, the calendar says it's time for the Cell and that's all there is to it, which is the problem with gimmick PPVs.

The only problem with an I Respect you match is that Cena's already said he respects Punk. Also, it's kind of a stupid gimmick.

No it's not. Ted DiBiase was a strong heel and never came close to turning face. Yokozuna didn't turn face until long after his monster run ended. Mankind didn't with his monster push in 96. I could go on and on.

None of those three are really comparable to CM Punk in 2012. The first two were helped in that regard by not appearing in front of the same audience every week. If a heel's booked to be a dick and win clean, and those kind of antics are seen on a weekly basis they'll get turned face. 1996 Mankind was new. He hadn't had the chance to establish a fan base at that point, which helped him get heat (if nobody's been given a reason to like him they're less likely to cheer him when he wins. Regardless of him being a heel. Punk has a large number of people who already like him for his past actions. Winning clean will only give them less reason to boo.)

Then it shouldn't have kept going.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. When/if Punk wins clean, the angle's over. It hasn't happened yet. And don't you fucking dare mention the triple threat match. We've been there.

I see no way in which Sheamus vs. Del Rio worked at all.

It worked to keep the angle going another month. Since that seems to have been the purpose, it worked rather well.

Not at all, but you don't always have Rock to bail out bad booking.

If you've got it, you might as well use it. If your aim is to make Rock champion, you might as well book with the aim of making people want Punk to lose to Rock as much as possible. Being someone who ducks fights people want to see and bribes people to get ahead are an extra two reasons for people to want to see Rock kick Punk's ass.

 

[klunderbunker]

True. However I err sickeningly close to thinking heels should rarely, if ever win clean.

No they shouldn't but once in awhile is acceptable.

The only problem with an I Respect you match is that Cena's already said he respects Punk. Also, it's kind of a stupid gimmick.

Almost as stupid as two guys who have have matches based on athleticism and competitiveness going into a match based around violence and bloodshed when bloodshed isn't allowed in the company anymore?

None of those three are really comparable to CM Punk in 2012. The first two were helped in that regard by not appearing in front of the same audience every week. If a heel's booked to be a dick and win clean, and those kind of antics are seen on a weekly basis they'll get turned face. 1996 Mankind was new. He hadn't had the chance to establish a fan base at that point, which helped him get heat (if nobody's been given a reason to like him they're less likely to cheer him when he wins. Regardless of him being a heel. Punk has a large number of people who already like him for his past actions. Winning clean will only give them less reason to boo.)

Gee, maybe it was a dumb idea to turn Punk heel and have him paired with a guy will be cheered by the same fans that already cheer Punk and boo Cena while having Punk say stuff that makes perfect sense and have the WWE keep saying he has to beat Cena and then he beats Cena over and over but it's not good enough for some reason and the fans start to sympathize with Punk because there's really no reason to hate him other than attacking Rock which he gave logical reasons for as well.

Nah, it's Punk's fault.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. When/if Punk wins clean, the angle's over. It hasn't happened yet. And don't you fucking dare mention the triple threat match. We've been there.

It should end there. I just have no confidence in WWE to end it there.

It worked to keep the angle going another month. Since that seems to have been the purpose, it worked rather well.

Aside from boring the fans to death, making people care less about the match and taking away most of the drama to it as well as being illogical, yeah it worked well.

If you've got it, you might as well use it. If your aim is to make Rock champion, you might as well book with the aim of making people want Punk to lose to Rock as much as possible. Being someone who ducks fights people want to see and bribes people to get ahead are an extra two reasons for people to want to see Rock kick Punk's ass.

Yeah you should, but they don't have to make Punk into a coward who is going to get what's coming to him in doing so. Why WWE is afraid of a heel coming off like a real threat to a top face continues to elude me.

 

[Lee]

You've probably already answered but 915 pages is a lot.

What are your thoughts on Ricardo Rodriguez?

 

[klunderbunker]

You've probably already answered but 915 pages is a lot.

What are your thoughts on Ricardo Rodriguez?

He's the only thing that keeps me from banging my head into a wall when I hear Alberto's music.

 

[Remix]

Almost as stupid as two guys who have have matches based on athleticism and competitiveness going into a match based around violence and bloodshed when bloodshed isn't allowed in the company anymore?

No, it's stupider than that. With the history of Cena and Punk you get the impression that the two are going to have to beat each other to a degree that they never have before. HiaC, even the PG version allows for that.

An I Respect you match is just a dumb idea, no matter the rating.

Gee, maybe it was a dumb idea to turn Punk heel and have him paired with a guy will be cheered by the same fans that already cheer Punk and boo Cena while having Punk say stuff that makes perfect sense and have the WWE keep saying he has to beat Cena and then he beats Cena over and over but it's not good enough for some reason and the fans start to sympathize with Punk because there's really no reason to hate him other than attacking Rock which he gave logical reasons for as well.

Nah, it's Punk's fault.

Holy run-on sentence, Batman! Where else was there for Punk to go? He'd beaten every notable heel in the company and Cena was the elephant in the room of his reign and overshadowed him every step of the way. Turning heel to face Cena was the logical progression for him. Was it done particularly well? No, but it's still the call that had to be made. If for no other reason than face vs face feuds suck ass.

It should end there. I just have no confidence in WWE to end it there.

Meh, Cena's probably going to win, meaning it will continue.

Aside from boring the fans to death, making people care less about the match and taking away most of the drama to it as well as being illogical, yeah it worked well.

I never said it did anything but prolong its existence well

Yeah you should, but they don't have to make Punk into a coward who is going to get what's coming to him in doing so.

It's an easy characteristic to apply to nearly any heel that's almost impossible to grow to like. Unless it's played for laughs (see: Scooby Doo).

Why WWE is afraid of a heel coming off like a real threat to a top face continues to elude me.

Because heels are monsters to be slayed. Once a physical threat's been beaten, they become less threatening, and therefore less hatable. A heel who's hated because he's a cowardly scumbag can get his heat back by being a cheating, cowardly scumbag. A threatening heel requires at least some work to be bought as a threat to that top face again.

 

[klunderbunker]

No, it's stupider than that. With the history of Cena and Punk you get the impression that the two are going to have to beat each other to a degree that they never have before. HiaC, even the PG version allows for that.

An I Respect you match is just a dumb idea, no matter the rating.

Punk: I want respect.

Cena: I won't say I respect you.

Doesn't sound that dumb. Same rules as an I Quit match and they've run plenty of those with Cena over the years.

Holy run-on sentence, Batman! Where else was there for Punk to go? He'd beaten every notable heel in the company and Cena was the elephant in the room of his reign and overshadowed him every step of the way. Turning heel to face Cena was the logical progression for him. Was it done particularly well? No, but it's still the call that had to be made. If for no other reason than face vs face feuds suck ass.

I know this is an insane idea for WWE, but they could bring up someone new to face him. Turning heel to fight Cena was fine, but having them fight one on one at three PPVs and having Punk win every time so far and then saying he has to do it again isn't doing Punk any favors.

Meh, Cena's probably going to win, meaning it will continue.

I would be very surprised if Cena won. I really would be.

It's an easy characteristic to apply to nearly any heel that's almost impossible to grow to like. Unless it's played for laughs (see: Scooby Doo).

Translation: it's lazy booking that has allowed the bookers to not have to think because they only have about 5 stories that they keep replaying over and over. I'd like to see them think of something new or at least fresh.

Because heels are monsters to be slayed. Once a physical threat's been beaten, they become less threatening, and therefore less hatable. A heel who's hated because he's a cowardly scumbag can get his heat back by being a cheating, cowardly scumbag. A threatening heel requires at least some work to be bought as a threat to that top face again.

Yeah, but you can have quite a run on being a monster. Punk has never been a monster, nor has his heel run done anything to make me want to see him fight more. At the end of the day, he's being dragged down by Cena because they won't let him get past Cena, because this company is afraid to let anyone be a breakout or breakaway star.

 

[Aeon Mathix]

Yeah, but the Cell is the completely wrong gimmick. Instead of being in a Cell, this should be an I Respect You match. But hey, the calendar says it's time for the Cell and that's all there is to it, which is the problem with gimmick PPVs.

You said in your Night Of Champions review that Punk vs Cena belongs in the Cell.

 

[klunderbunker]

You said in your Night Of Champions review that Punk vs Cena belongs in the Cell.

I mean it's the only match they have that can go in a Cell. If it were up to me, there owuldn't be a Cell match for the rest of the year.

 

[Danger Burger]

Not sure how to phrase this.

Can it get to a point where, having not revealed much regarding Aces and Eights, that their leadership becomes irrelevant? And, in a sense, they simply become a faction that needs to be beaten etc. or can stick around with the masks for funsies and wrestling??

Its not an idea i'm particularly vying for. Not great TV. But they do talk about how they like being around etc. Can they go with having no major purpose, just chaos? Or is their presence in the upper card securing either a definite end or a major loss of steam with little other choice?