Is Vince Killing WWE?

[Fishburger]

Now bear with me here,

We all know that Vincent Kennedy McMahon has lost the passion for the World Wrestling Entertainment and what it represents and he has even said "It's all about the mon-ay!"

He obviously doesn't care what the fans think about the product and he will tell you who to like and who to dislike and if a superstar can make a ton of money from merchandise (John Cena) and get every child to pester their parents for a new T shirt that seems to come out every month with him then that is what he will do.
By doing this he will lose the older generations of fans he tried so hard to gain all those years ago.

It doesn't seem to be about the wrestling anymore, RAW especially, rather it seems that Vince wants to get as much money as he possibly can by rounding up celebrities, big name bands for PPVs etc instead of keeping the WWE what it is...a wrestling show.

Is he essentially going to kill the global franchise he created?

I'm not saying he is killing it and I'm not saying he isn't, I just want to hear your thoughts on this matter.

 

[shafe_41]

Heck no. Vince isn't killing the WWE at all. The WWE appeals to such a wide audience that it will never die. The only way the WWE would be gone is if it would somehow morph into a hybrid of the UFC in a way. Trying to give it more of an image of real sport than sports entertainment. Basically, trying to make it look like something it's not. The WWE loses fans and gains fans every single day of the week.

As for the whole John Cena thing... not at all. As long as that man is around and kids still like him, the WWE will thrive as far as a company goes. What each individual person thinks of the product, that's obviously just a matter of opinion. And with Vince's idea of gearing the product more for children with the cleaner programs and PG rating, John Cena fits that mold. And since John Cena is the face of that company right now, it's going to be that way. Cena is also a massive crossover star. The man is on ESPN more than any superstar I've ever seen. Now I know he's not on it alot, but he's on it. I would like to think that the Coach has some pull in getting that done though. Cena is everywhere. As far as crossover appeal goes, he's bigger than Austin was, but he's not quite as big as the The Rock. I say that because The Rock's movies are waaaay better. But that's just one man's opinion. I also think the PG rating could be why MVP's character is so rediculously squeaky clean. I think Vince wants him in a way to appeal to kids too by all the smiling, positive promos about not going down the same road that he did, and just very family friendly. Sure these squeaky clean images are less appealing to the older fans, but let's face it... you won't stop watching. Sooner or later, the talent is going to learn ways to cut epic promos without TV-14 language and you will never notice the difference.

I for one think the product right now with the exception of the whole Orton/HHH thing is pretty decent. It's much better than it was last year at this time. They have brought back some of the unpredictablility to it. Granted not a lot... but some. The whole Mark Henry face turn was something if someone were to pull the idea out of a hat, you would just look at it, laugh at it, and throw it back in the hat because "hahahh that'd never happen."

Look at ECW. Everybody complained for the longest time that there was never any new young talent to look forward to watching. Now you have almost a whole program devoted to young talent and the New Superstar Initiative. I think the true fans of wrestling in general realize ECW is a great product. Could they use a new name for it? Yes, because in no way aside from the "extreme rules match" that takes place once every 3 months or so is ECW extreme anymore. However it gives the younger talent a launching pad. We've received many great superstars from ECW over the years in Morrison (as a singles guy), CM Punk, and Jack Swaggah just to name a few. Since the older fans don't have an edgy product to get into anymore like we did in the Rock/Austin days, we focus more on the actual wrestling itself and the skills of the superstars. Morrison, Punk, and Swagger are definitions of this and it's something I'd like to think the idea of ECW being the "grooming show" did for those guys.

Vince killing the WWE? No friggin' way. If anything, it's looking better now than it has for awhile.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

Err... no?

VKM will do anything & everything in his power to do all but kill his own creation (with the exception of the nWo WWE debut). If Vince is killing the WWE, everybody will switch to other companies like TNA and he will not make any profits. Which in VKM's books is a bad thing.

However, VKM is merely recreating the product. He has switched from a wrestling company to an entertainment company & gone from a TV-14 to a PG-13 rating. This is all in the name of attracting younger viewers for the next generation of us older type fans. It's all apart of achieving the best possible Business Life Cycle:

You make business, you bring product to table, you promote product heavily you hit boom, you grow rapidly, you achieve success, you mooch off success, you either keep success rolling or reinvent self, you repeat.

Everything VKM is doing now will always be for the business. Be patient & weather the storm my friend. More than likely, the WWE is becoming the side of the river that will be greener than the other for many years to come very soon. Unless TNA gets & correctly plays five ACES or if WWE competely busts their five ACE hand, then it is just a matter of time before WWE gets to a high point.

 

[Blade]

Do you realise how much you contradicted yourself?

You said wants to make money, is doing everything he can to make money, yet he's somehow killing the WWE?
Now call me old fashioned, but I thought the best way to make money off a TV show was to use it's best aspects and to make it a good overall show. In the case of WWE, wouldn't that be pushing the most popular talent while building up younger talent who are having great matches?
Sounds to me like a winning combination. Also sounds to me like what Vince is doing at the moment.

If Vince wants to make money, he will put on the best show he can. If Vince puts on the best show he can, surely he's not killing the WWE?

 

[FromTheSouth]

Yeah, I agree with Blade. Sig that because I may never say it again.

The WWE is awesome to watch right now. The matches have been good, and the stories have some focus. Before anyone asks why, if the stories are focused, John Cena is in the WWE title match, well, it's NOC, and he has to be on the card somewhere. Look at some of the awesome matches we've gotten to see lately. Morrison has pinned punk twice. Cena and HHH was awesome. Everything on ECW is amazing. Orton and DiBiase was special.

Seth Green, was by most accounts, a hit. If Seth Green can get over with a wrestling audience, then someone is doing something right.

I think that Vince knows that there has to be a valley between peaks, and every time the WWE craters a bit, he pushes who will make him money until someone else is ready to step up. He is pushing Morrison and Swagger to the moon. He has decided that for all of Mark Henry's inability to be a cruiserweight, he has a purpose. He looks like a legit badass. He has charisma, and has improved immensely on the mic over his decade plus in the business. Who ever would have thought Mark Henry could be a top face, but look how over he is. Vince has his champions getting pinned on TV, which makes more people look like contenders, which is always good for the show.

For all the bitching that goes on on the internet, it is good to take a step back and look at what is working, and quite a bit is working right now.

 

[Chill]

Originally posted by Fishburger: It doesn't seem to be about the wrestling anymore, RAW especially, rather it seems that Vince wants to get as much money as he possibly can by rounding up celebrities, big name bands for PPVs etc.

But the thing is, Vince has always claimed that he isn't about wrestling...oh no, Vince McMahon is about entertainment. To be in some way fair to the man, hasn't WWE always been about pro wrestling mixed with celebrity? Go back to Wrestlemania 1 and one of the reasons it succeeded so well was because it was a mix of wrestling and celebrities....hell, Lawrence Taylor even main evented Wrestlemania 11!! So Vince's current scheme of bringing in Seth Green and ZZ Top (as much as some fans may not like it), is really nothing new....it's just part of Vince trying to gain mainstream acceptance.

 

[Age of Orton]

I don't see any problems with the current "guest RAW host" storyline, as fans we know it's all scripted, but come on it's adding something to raw, hopefully WWE keep this going for a while, and once it comes to a halt I wouldn't mind Vince doing the Trump storyline again but this time with the Million Dollar Man,

However Vince killing wrestling no chance in hell, he's just trying to remold it after the Attitude Era then the mid 2002-2008/09 era that doesn't really have a name to it.

 

[Deexter Jorgan]

Vince has kept an open mind about the product and is finally giving new stars a chance to shine with a hugely stacked raw roster and a smackdown roster of future stars, ECW is also paving the way for FCW to make its mark.

The WWE pre attitude era didnt have as varied income as it has now,the company has a total of five different divisions and the PG rated era has opened up the WWE to a whole new set of fans, they are touring much more then previously, now how can you say that Vince is killing the company when its stronger then it has ever been?

The fact is the WWE is making money and the WWE is finally catering to the fans and making new stars so that more and more generations can enjoy the product even after vince is gone.

 

[bfmooz]

To some degree I can see what Fish is saying, but I think that the factors may be a little misguided. Let me explain.

I can agree with you to some degree that the same people continue to be pushed to the top. Am I really excited about yet another Cena/HHH/Orton match at Night of Champions? Not particularly. Didn't we see this about a year ago...I think they called it Wrestlemania 24. The question is why is this match happening again? Is it Vince? To some degree yes, but I think there are other underlying factors.

If you don't put these three in a main event match, who will you put? Right now, who can carry a main event caliber feud other than a select few. I'm not convinced that this is so much Vinnie Mac and not so much nobody really stepping up and taking it. If you're gonna get to the next level, to some degree you have to put yourself there. The best wrestlers in the business can transcend and can hook the kids buying Tshirts AND the fanboys posting on wrestling website forums as well. Did any of us question Stone Cold's push? How about the Rock? Anyone remember when John Cena was the US champ and we were all rocking the house cheering for him to finally one up JBL? Everyone was on board then because we were hooked on the character. We get tired of it though when it's been around for a while, but the only way to fix that is for others to create something just as memorable and step up. Edge did it. Orton did it. Who in this generation will step up? Believe me, when the fans start blowing the roof off for someone because they are so into that character, Vince has to respond, because that's good business.

 

[Johnny_B.Lv]

Vince isn't killing the WWE. He's simply lost touch ( to what degree, we'll see with time ) on how to put on compelling story lines. There are almost no worthy rivalries left in the WWE. The last great rivalry was Jericho-HBK, since then, what's really been that memorable, Randy-HHH was decent at best but Randy came off looking weaker than ever.

The problem with WWE now, and I don't know if it's Vince's fault, well everything does go by him one way or a another so maybe, is to keep the product looking fresh. He does it by adding stupid ideas, Seth Green in a match, 6 man tags that are hardly wrestling quality !!!???

Vince go back to creating a product that is interesting, not out of this world shocking, but worthy of following. Go back to creating rivalries.

Example, give MVP and Swagger a 3 pay per view rivalry with run ins, costing each other matches, maybe even costing each other title wins or title shots, get them involved on a personal level and people will like it.

Another one, Dolph and Mysterio, this could be a worthy feud as well.

Anyways, creating rivalries keeps things interesting, just don't over do it, then let other wrestlers join in to keep things going.

Well that's it for me.

 

[ap35hs3on7zso62s]

Yeah, I understand what he's saying COMPLETELY....and to anyone that says the WWE is great right now...lmao, cmon, be real, you must've only been watching entertainment in a wrestling ring for a couple of years. But the way I see it is, unfortunately, he's not killing the WWE, he's killing off of us older fans who watched it in during the attitude era, as a lot of us already grew out of wrestling anyway, so we don't watch it religiously as we used to, hell its been a couple of years since I've sat throug a whole episode of RAW..I can't anymore without falling asleep, or just flat out changing the channel. I just get on here for news but w/e......He's getting 'rid' of us, and getting NEWER fans that will also grew with the business like we did, and the kids don't know any better, the NEW fans don't know any better, they didn't know the attitude era, so then, they wont complain or compare, they'll think this is the best thing in the world and enjoy it, and make vince money, if anything, its probably growing more right now because of the fact that its PG.....I hate it as much as us attitude fans do, but its life =/

And if people can't except the truth, like my other posts, then I feel sorry for you. I don't sugar coat anthing, so if you want to keep downgrading me because I don't spoon feed lies, then go right ahead.

 

[Slyfox696]

Yeah, I understand what he's saying COMPLETELY....and to anyone that says the WWE is great right now...lmao, cmon, be real, you must've only been watching entertainment in a wrestling ring for a couple of years. But the way I see it is, unfortunately, he's not killing the WWE, he's killing off of us older fans who watched it in during the attitude era, as a lot of us already grew out of wrestling anyway, so we don't watch it religiously as we used to, hell its been a couple of years since I've sat throug a whole episode of RAW..I can't anymore without falling asleep, or just flat out changing the channel. I just get on here for news but w/e......He's getting 'rid' of us, and getting NEWER fans that will also grew with the business like we did, and the kids don't know any better, the NEW fans don't know any better, they didn't know the attitude era, so then, they wont complain or compare, they'll think this is the best thing in the world and enjoy it, and make vince money, if anything, its probably growing more right now because of the fact that its PG.....I hate it as much as us attitude fans do, but its life =/

And if people can't except the truth, like my other posts, then I feel sorry for you. I don't sugar coat anthing, so if you want to keep downgrading me because I don't spoon feed lies, then go right ahead.

I find it amusing you refer to yourself as an "older fan", and yet you loudly proclaim to be an attitude era fan.

I've been watching wrestling since the late 80s, and I can tell you, without a shadow of a doubt, professional wrestling in the Attitude Era sucked ass. Sure, it was popular, but not because of pro wrestling. It was popular because it was shock tv, and appealed to the lowest form of entertainment. Today's product blows the Attitude Era out of the water, in terms of quality. The matches are better, the writing is better, and the exposure is better. More and more the WWE is gaining acceptance into the mainstream, not as a joke, but rather a legitimate entertainment company, something that wrestling has NEVER been, and certainly wasn't during the Attitude Era.

You want to talk about fans not knowing quality because of when they started watching wrestling, then fine. But don't try to use the Attitude Era to put down today's product, because as far as pro wrestling goes, the WWE is exponentially better today. Wrestling is enjoyable today because it's pro wrestling. THAT is what makes it better.

 

[Jtkronus]

I find it amusing you refer to yourself as an "older fan", and yet you loudly proclaim to be an attitude era fan.

I've been watching wrestling since the late 80s, and I can tell you, without a shadow of a doubt, professional wrestling in the Attitude Era sucked ass. Sure, it was popular, but not because of pro wrestling. It was popular because it was shock tv, and appealed to the lowest form of entertainment. Today's product blows the Attitude Era out of the water, in terms of quality. The matches are better, the writing is better, and the exposure is better. More and more the WWE is gaining acceptance into the mainstream, not as a joke, but rather a legitimate entertainment company, something that wrestling has NEVER been, and certainly wasn't during the Attitude Era.

You want to talk about fans not knowing quality because of when they started watching wrestling, then fine. But don't try to use the Attitude Era to put down today's product, because as far as pro wrestling goes, the WWE is exponentially better today. Wrestling is enjoyable today because it's pro wrestling. THAT is what makes it better.

Excuse me? Do you know without the attitude era that it would be actually WCW and not the WWE to be the only main company today? The attitude era that has been talked about brought the WWE to what it is today. Vince would be working for Eric Bitchoff and I doubt that he'll do that. Anything that Undertaker, Triple H, Stone Cold, The Rock, Mankind, Hell even Shane McMahon led factions and storylines that highlighted the attitude Era.

The reason why it's more organized than what it was before is that there are a whole lot more of Superstars that what it was before. The Attitude was the mold to what WWE is today. Triple H's run started his run in the Attitude Era. We all see what happened to him. Stone Cold is the Attitude Era. The Rock is now a movie star because the attitude era molded his mic/acting skills to what it is today. Sadly enough mic skills are not as good as it was before. I remember when Y2J (with the long hair), The Rock, and Stone Cold made me chuckle weekly. To boot we see great Rock/Stone Cold Wrestlemania Matches. Mankind/Undertaker brought the Attitude to a whole new life with their Hell in the Cell match.

Remember if it wasn't for the attitude era USA network wouldn't be getting the same rating as it is now.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

But the thing is, Vince has always claimed that he isn't about wrestling...oh no, Vince McMahon is about entertainment. To be in some way fair to the man, hasn't WWE always been about pro wrestling mixed with celebrity? Go back to Wrestlemania 1 and one of the reasons it succeeded so well was because it was a mix of wrestling and celebrities....hell, Lawrence Taylor even main evented Wrestlemania 11!! So Vince's current scheme of bringing in Seth Green and ZZ Top (as much as some fans may not like it), is really nothing new....it's just part of Vince trying to gain mainstream acceptance.

And the ironic thing about it is that what is on the TV screen today I find to be anything, but entertaining.

I've gone on at length about this and I really don't have it in me to do a lengthy post about it now. But I suppose him trying to treat wrestling like a real sport, which is what he is doing in the PG Era ... is mind-boggling to me.

If he wants to be more UFC-like, instead of sticking with what actually made wrestling popular, why wouldn't fans actually watch the real thing, instead of purely scripted athletic contests? It defies logic.

Wrestling was never a real sport. Never will be a real sport. So why even bother treating it like it is? Does he think people will actually be less embarrassed to say they are "wrestling fans" if he does this? Wrestling really is not any more respectable today than it was back in the Hogan Era. The masses will always look down upon it, no matter what you do with the product. So why even bother trying to change your image to try to attempt to make the product look like a real sport, with eliminating storylines, eliminating managers, and even going as far as to tell your commentators to change their commentary style to make it sound more like the commentary style of a legit sport?

Vince had it right 10 years ago. Instead of going the route of portraying wrestling as a "sport", he went the route of portraying it as "entertainment" and a "soap opera for guys". Today, I can't say the same. Today I look at the business as solely "scripted athletic bouts for guys" with nothing else accompanying it. There are no personalities. There are no reasons to really cheer or boo the guys anymore since hardly anybody even talks on the mic anymore except for a select small handful of people. The announcers, by orders of Vince, are so dulled-down, that even they can't get you excited to get you into the matches anymore.

I don't know.

For as much shit as has been given to the OP, he may have a point. Where as Vince may be all about the "MON-AAAYY", and he does still try to tell fans "what to think" ... and he gets away with it to an extent, by raising prices on his base .... however that base is slowly being eroded year after year. After a survey of about 200 people on here, it was determined that even most IWC fans are apathetic to the current state of the product. So why do people watch? Out of some misplaced sense of loyalty to a product that we watched during our childhood? A product that people simply can't bring themselves to give up altogether?

The problem is what he is doing today may be financially profitable by taking advantage of his base and by raising prices, but his fanbase isn't increasing. It's decreasing. Evidenced by declining ratings. He can only get away with that for so long, which I guess he is trying to do as long as he can. It's like the stock market. Get in while you can and make as much money as you can with as little risk as possible. Then, get out and try something else.

But I can look at the OP and completely understand where he is coming from. Because it is the size of the fanbase and their enthusiasm level that I am looking at in the long-term, which I have noticed has gotten worse over the years, instead of better. Eventually, as stated, the bubble is going to burst altogether, and he's going to be forced to change strategies, because I am not convinced whatsoever that "stay the course" on the current product is best for the long term.

 

[hhhfan14]

My problem with the company right now is the fact that Vince, as said earlier keeps throwing hunter, orton, and cena in the main event, cuz well "who else could you use", ok this would be diffrent if the whole era didnt have orton, cena, and hunter variations on every single ppv, first one we see hunter vs orton vs cena, then we see rematch, then we see hunter vs orton, then we see hunter vs cena, then we see orton vs cena, please during all this time, i think that they should have had hunter do what he does best, bring in another mid carder and make them "that damn good" to where they are ready to run main event status, and i mean have him, orton, and cena, since apparently they are the big three, all working with the mid carders, and try to give the main event a bigger picture, keep big show in the main event, put Jericho back up in main event ranks, send some people over on Smackdown over to Raw as almost all of those mid carders in my opinion are ready to where they could fluctuate between mid carder matches and main event matches, such as another miz vs cena, where miz actually finds a way to beats cena, have mvp vs hunter, or shwagger vs hunter, and my last question is what ever happened to that whole thing with shwagger coming in and letting orton beat him, i thought that maybe he would go into legacy, or maybe if not that, he may stil be comin in after ted switches over to Jerichos side. but does anyone see my point, and with vince not doing this, im wondering is he holding on long enough just for hunter, taker, hbk, kane, cena and orton to retire, and then let the show run rampid with mid carders that were never "rubbed" into the main event status??

 

[The Redcrosse Knight]

The TV shows are often crap, but quality will dip when you produce five hours of television a week. Besides, Raw, Smackdown, and ECW are basically montage machines for PPV’s, and Vince McMahon & co. still produce best “wrestling movies”. It’s a business strategy; if you want great wrestling you have to pay for it.

As for Cena, the guy is simply put, a media machine. If making lot’s of money involves exploiting his abilities then why not? If it helps to secure pro wrestling's future then why not? He brings the WWE brand to movies, television, music, magazines, etc.

In spreading the WWE media umbrella, the candidates for the job are few. Triple H can get similar attention from TV shows and muscle magazines, but his appeal is still nowhere near Cena’s. Cena is successful in too many demographics, making him the best candidate to carry the WWE flag.

 

[Slyfox696]

Excuse me? Do you know without the attitude era that it would be actually WCW and not the WWE to be the only main company today?

Not likely. In fact, if WCW had won the war, then they still probably would have been put out of business. WCW didn't die because of WCW, it died because of the corporate execs, first at Time Warner, and then again with AOL/Time Warner merger. Jamie Kellner I think was the one who officially pulled the plug. And when they decided to take WCW off their TV stations, all potential buyers ran away from any deal to purchase WCW.

But, then again, you'd have to actually know something wrestling history to understand that.

The attitude era that has been talked about brought the WWE to what it is today.

This I agree completely with. That's why we have so few heels, fans are completely ignorant to their place in wrestling, the matches have become unrealistic, and the whole product suffers.

The WWE has spent YEARS trying to correct the damage done by the Attitude Era. Every year they get a little closer, and every year the quality goes up a little more.

Vince would be working for Eric Bitchoff and I doubt that he'll do that.

Eric Bischoff was fired in 1999, a year and a half before Vince bought WCW.

Anything that Undertaker, Triple H, Stone Cold, The Rock, Mankind, Hell even Shane McMahon led factions and storylines that highlighted the attitude Era.

What the fuck are you trying to say here?

The reason why it's more organized than what it was before is that there are a whole lot more of Superstars that what it was before.

Yes, because the WWE has expanded itself. What's your point?

The Attitude was the mold to what WWE is today.

Did you even watch wrestling during the Attitude Era? It was NOTHING like it is today. There are two lasting legacies from the Monday Night Wars; matches on free tv no longer consist mainly of superstar vs. jobber, and interviews and promos are used far more often to promote storylines than matches are. Those are the two lasting effects from the Attitude Era, with regard to how pro wrestling is run. The problem for you is that the WWE didn't create either of those legacies, but rather WCW did.

Aside from that, NOTHING now is like the Attitude Era. And thank God for that.

Triple H's run started his run in the Attitude Era. We all see what happened to him. Stone Cold is the Attitude Era. The Rock is now a movie star because the attitude era molded his mic/acting skills to what it is today.

Again I ask what the fuck your point is.

Sadly enough mic skills are not as good as it was before. I remember when Y2J (with the long hair), The Rock, and Stone Cold made me chuckle weekly.

Yes, when you were younger and things like shoving things up asses were funny. Welcome to the more grown-up world.

Remember if it wasn't for the attitude era USA network wouldn't be getting the same rating as it is now.

This doesn't even begin to make sense. Like, literally, no sense.

The fact of the matter is that the Attitude Era sucked, and existed upon the premise of shock and sex. Today's product is SO much more enjoyable for people who actually like pro wrestling than the Attitude Era ever was.

 

[justinsayne]

Now bear with me here,

We all know that Vincent Kennedy McMahon has lost the passion for the World Wrestling Entertainment and what it represents and he has even said "It's all about the mon-ay!"

Which is why he puts so much time and effort into the company every fucking day, that must also be why he is backstage at pretty much every fucking taping aswell, and of course it's about the money, the company can't keep running if it's not making money, that's just common fucking sense

He obviously doesn't care what the fans think about the product and he will tell you who to like and who to dislike and if a superstar can make a ton of money from merchandise (John Cena) and get every child to pester their parents for a new T shirt that seems to come out every month with him then that is what he will do.

Or he does care what the mainstream fans more than he cares what the IWC thinks, again it just makes sense, why would he do things that are only going to please a very very small group of fans when he can do things that are going to please a much much larger group of fans, larger groups of fans = more money coming into the company, therefore keeping the WWE in business longer, not to mention if you grab kids you also end up grabbing the parents too, it's pretty simple really, kids don't go to wrestling shows by themselves, they genuinely need a parent to accompany them, therefore insteead of selling just one ticket to an adult fan they end up selling 2 tickets, they just doubled there profit by targeting the child

By doing this he will lose the older generations of fans he tried so hard to gain all those years ago.

No most fans are still fans of the product, and as I just explained you get a child into your product you tend to sell more tickets, and lets not forget the older fans are not going to be around forever anyways, so it's kinda necessary to hook new younger fans

It doesn't seem to be about the wrestling anymore, RAW especially,

Umm yeah that's because it's fucking entertainment dude

rather it seems that Vince wants to get as much money as he possibly can by rounding up celebrities, big name bands for PPVs etc instead of keeping the WWE what it is...a wrestling show.

He's been using celebs for ages dude what the fuck are you talking about, for fuck sake look at WM 1 he had Mr. T in a fucking match for fuck sake, and it's a buisness, it NEEDS to make money or it goes out of buisness, you know kinda like EC fucking W, seriously what is so hard about this to understand

Is he essentially going to kill the global franchise he created?

Nope, he's only make it bigger and stronger

I'm not saying he is killing it and I'm not saying he isn't, I just want to hear your thoughts on this matter.[/QUOTE]

Umm you're kinda implying that he's killing it, by saying he doesn't give a shit about the fans, but whatever

 

[Slyfox696]

The problem is what he is doing today may be financially profitable by taking advantage of his base and by raising prices, but his fanbase isn't increasing. It's decreasing. Evidenced by declining ratings.

I'm only going to address this part, because its so far beyond ignorant and ridiculous that I must address it. Furthermore, I know you'll never respond, so it's like a free shot at you, right?

When you say his "fanbase isn't increasing", just what are you basing this theory on? Surely it isn't the WWE financials, which continue to grow. Surely it isn't upon live event attendance, which continues to grow. Surely it isn't ratings, because they continue to grow.

Of course, I know what your response to that is. You'll look at current ratings, compare them to ten years ago, and stand on your soapbox shouting how ratings have dropped tremendously since then. Of course, you'll neglect to mention the incredible impact that 300 additional television channels, the Internet, TiVo and the Benoit/steroid scandal had on the product, but luckily for us, that's what I'm here for.

From 2004 until the Benoit double/murder suicide in '07, ratings were on the rise, a slow rise perhaps, but still a steady one. When the Benoit situation came out, ratings dropped like Tyson vs. Douglas. And while the ratings have never bounced back to where they were in 06 and 07, they have begun their slow climb upwards. So, I would love to know how a massive drop in ratings due to a Benoit and the subsequent steroid scandal indicates a decline in quality of product? Furthermore, I'd love to hear how increasing revenue and increasing attendance is equal to a declining fanbase.

 

[Doomsday Device]

Out of these last 2 posts, I have to agree with Jsvkia, hell I agree with every word this person just typed.

I also, have been a fan since the late 80's. 1987 to be exact. And the Attitude era was perhaps the hottest thing in wrestling, after the formation of the nWo.

Sure I know there was alot of shock tv involved, things like Mae Young french kissing Mark Henry and gross things like that. And with all honesty, I didnt tune in to see that, I tuned in every Monday to feel and experince the energy that program/era was radiating.

Still put a tape or dvd from 1998 or 1999 and you can immediately feel the energy. It was like eating a great steak and mashed potatoes, now, when I tune in, its like Im eating broccoli, or steamed cauliflower, its just so clean and bland and without life.

It feels like the wrestlers are robots that are being radio controlled from the back. It has no feeling, they act and talk like everything has been highly scripted for them, and I know this is how it really is. But it didnt feel like that before. Before it felt like even the lower card wrestlers were pouring their heart in the ring. Now we dont even get this from the main eventers.

I feel like Vince has given us the older fans who were loyal supporters of his brand a huge F U.

Ive always asked myself what made him change to this crap, oh yeah, mo nay right.

Once he see's this crap starts running out of life and his ship starts to sink again, like it has happened in the past, he'll do whatever it takes to pull out all stops, even is if this means to give us a taste of the era we had previously. Just to get his shit going again.

He deserves to get his butt kicked by TNA or any other organization. Just to humble his ass again.

 

[Slyfox696]

Out of these last 2 posts, I have to agree with Jsvkia, hell I agree with every word this person just typed.

I wouldn't admit that to too many people if I were you, it reflects poorly on both of you.

I also, have been a fan since the late 80's. 1987 to be exact. And the Attitude era was perhaps the hottest thing in wrestling, after the formation of the nWo.

And Hulkamania...you know, the huge phenomenon that gave the nWo and the Attitude Era the platform for which it sprung?

Sure I know there was alot of shock tv involved, things like Mae Young french kissing Mark Henry and gross things like that. And with all honesty, I didnt tune in to see that, I tuned in every Monday to feel and experince the energy that program/era was radiating.

And you're SURE that energy wasn't from:

A) Competition
B) Only one show a week instead of four
C) Creative new angles never seen before
D) Vulgarity and sex and
E) Your own nostalgia?

I'm sure if you put that same time period in today, with 4 TV shows and do it in present time, the Attitude Era wouldn't quite be like you remembered it. Don't get me wrong, watching D'Lo Brown buy tampons is entertaining and all, but I'd rather watch John Cena vs. Shawn Michaels on Raw.

It feels like the wrestlers are robots that are being radio controlled from the back. It has no feeling, they act and talk like everything has been highly scripted for them, and I know this is how it really is. But it didnt feel like that before. Before it felt like even the lower card wrestlers were pouring their heart in the ring. Now we dont even get this from the main eventers.

I disagree completely. When I watch guys like Punk, Kingston, Cena, Batista, Bourne, Edge, etc...I never feel like they're mailing it in. Sure, when Shawn Michaels comes out, it's basically a clear case of "I don't want to be here", but for most of the guys, it's not like that.

I feel like Vince has given us the older fans who were loyal supporters of his brand a huge F U.

Quite the opposite, I feel as if he's doing right by the business, and trying to correct all the shortcuts he had to take to keep from going out of business.

At his heart, I feel that Vince cares very much about the tradition of professional wrestling. Vince is willing to put aside tradition in order to keep his business alive, but at the end of the day, when it comes to pro wrestling, he has a lot of respect for the tradition of the business.

If you don't believe me, look at the difference between Vince and Eric when they ruled the wrestling world. When Eric Bischoff ruled the wrestling world, it became a celebrity show. Celebrity wrestlers, concerts, gimmicks after rock bands. While Vince obviously does stuff like that, his show doesn't focus on that. Those are the frills to go along with pro wrestling. But since he's been on top again, he has shifted to more of a wrestling oriented product (outside of Raw, all three TV shows push storylines with a lot of wrestling), matches have become more grounded and fundamental, storylines reflect the generic Good vs. Evil, and characters are more grounded in face and heel dispositions.

As an older wrestling fan (relatively speaking), I feel that Vince is not only not screwing us, he is trying to, more and more, go back to the way wrestling SHOULD be.

Ive always asked myself what made him change to this crap, oh yeah, mo nay right.

Money is what made him change to the Attitude crap. Money is what makes pro wrestling work, always has and always will.

 

[Doomsday Device]

If you read carefully, I said the Attitude era was the hottest thing after the nWo. Obviously everybody and their mother knows that Hulkamania was the hottest thing before the nWo.

I admit the Attitude era is mostly remembered for tampons and naked women.

But there was also good, high paced wrestling involved.

Not some monkey coming out with sneakers and denim shorts and cute arm bands and the only piece of wrestling gear on him is kneepads.

And you guys know who Im talking about.

I like my wrestling dirty. Not Mr Clean

Oh and one more thing, since you seem to agree so much on todays wrestling, what would you think Vince would do once this safe PG gimmick isnt working and starts to threaten the very existence or livelihood of the brand?

Please answer this but without saying that will never happen.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

Which is why he puts so much time and effort into the company every fucking day, that must also be why he is backstage at pretty much every fucking taping aswell, and of course it's about the money, the company can't keep running if it's not making money, that's just common fucking sense.

Unfortunately, none of that really does any bit of good if you get "tunnel-vision" as a result. You get so entrenched into the product and too hands-on, that you lose sight of the overall product with how it is presented, and how it is received as a casual fan. And that is what I think Vince has lost touch of.

Or he does care what the mainstream fans more than he cares what the IWC thinks, again it just makes sense, why would he do things that are only going to please a very very small group of fans when he can do things that are going to please a much much larger group of fans, larger groups of fans = more money coming into the company, therefore keeping the WWE in business longer, not to mention if you grab kids you also end up grabbing the parents too, it's pretty simple really, kids don't go to wrestling shows by themselves, they genuinely need a parent to accompany them, therefore insteead of selling just one ticket to an adult fan they end up selling 2 tickets, they just doubled their profit by targeting the child

I couldn't agree more with the statement in bold. However, ironically enough, what he is doing today pleases far more of the hardcore wrestling fans then it does the Casual Audience .... who basically sits at the shows looking like they would rather watch paint dry.

The crowds these days are utterly horrendous and that is because Vince has dulled down his product so much, that he does not give his fans enough reasons to give reactions to his talent.

Most of the IWC I have interacted with are like the ROH bots, that still are under the false impression that only wrestling sells. The casual fanbase seems to feel otherwise. However, it is the IWC and the ROH bots that are the ones being coddled to. Not the Casual fans. And that is because it is generally a safer product that pleases advertisers, and Vince simply assumes that the fans who liked the edgier product will still come along for the ride, anyway.

No most fans are still fans of the product, and as I just explained you get a child into your product you tend to sell more tickets, and lets not forget the older fans are not going to be around forever anyways, so it's kinda necessary to hook new younger fans

Hooking younger fans is great. However, I wouldn't necessarily state that this product is really targeted to younger fans. Not like the New Generation necessarily was. Hell, I would even take the New Generation over what I see today, any day. Because at least they had a clear cut direction with their product, instead of simply throwing it out in the trough for whoever wants it.

Umm yeah that's because it's fucking entertainment dude

Ironic, being that scripted matches with nothing else, is anything but entertaining. That is why I chuckle when people wanted to determine the name of this particular Era of wrestling some time ago and some actually called it the "Entertainment Era". If I were to call any particular Era that, it would be the Post Attitude Era, since that was probably the most soap-opera oriented Era of all ... even more so than the actual Attitude Era.

He's been using celebs for ages dude what the fuck are you talking about, for fuck sake look at WM 1 he had Mr. T in a fucking match for fuck sake, and it's a buisness, it NEEDS to make money or it goes out of buisness, you know kinda like EC fucking W, seriously what is so hard about this to understand

I agree with this. If anything, I encourage celebrities to be used in wrestling. Hell, look what Donald Trump did. Ratings shot up almost an entire point just by bringing him in and doing an interesting storyline with him.

If anything, that should have sent a message loud and clear to Vince that this is the kind of thing the public wants more of. Not the same scripted matches between the same people seen over and over and over again.

 

[Slyfox696]

If you read carefully, I said the Attitude era was the hottest thing after the nWo. Obviously everybody and their mother knows that Hulkamania was the hottest thing before the nWo.

I did read carefully. However, you have to understand that words on a forum don't convey inflection. When I read it, I assumed you meant that the nWo was the hottest thing ever, and the Attitude Era was second. I thought you were ordering them by quality, not when they happened.

I admit the Attitude era is mostly remembered for tampons and naked women.

Which has dick to do with pro wrestling.

But there was also good, high paced wrestling involved.

Very rare does "high paced" and "good wrestling" go together. Only the very best of the best can pull it off. Unfortunately, most of the Attitude Era sucked when it came to wrestling..

Not some clown coming out with sneakers and denim shorts and cute arm bands and the only piece of wrestling gear on him is kneepads.

You're right. If only more wrestlers would look like this:

Oh, and I'd hate to forget:

Because pro wrestlers are supposed to wear sweat suits and ties when they wrestle right? Yes, if only we could go back to the Attitude Era, when guys wore REAL pro wrestling attire.

I like my wrestling dirty.

Not Mr Clean

Well, here you go then. [youtube]GIuvlqKX0TY[/youtube]

As for me, I'll take the quality over the dirty any day of the week.

 

[Doomsday Device]

I know that you know what Im trying to say, you're just trying to prove your own point while at the same time looking like an ass. Something that has never happened in a forum before lol

Anyway you forgot to answer my question. Of what would Vince do once his kiddie gimmick is not working anymore. Because the saying goes "too much of anything is bad"

The only thing Vince is loyal to are the initials W W E. That and maybe his wife.

Dont tell me we wouldnt see an Attitude era atmosphere almost overnight as soon as he sees his kiddie oriented shit is not working.