Is the "Black Push" Over?

[IrishCanadian25]

Let's think about this...

Mark Henry.

Was the ECW Champion for quite a run. Then, he lost to Matt Hardy and has not been able to regain the championship belt. He lost clean to Hardy after a twist of fate on the recent episode of ECW. He continues to be a "main contender" for the title on ECW, likely due to the lack of roster depth in line for a major shot.

Cryme Tyme

Went from being fired, to being re-hired, to being pushed along side John Cena, to being top tag team title contenders - to being silenced and sporadic at best.

Kofi Kingston

For a time, the rookie phenom was the Intercontinental Champion and then a Tag Team Champion. Both belts are gone, and Kofi was a semi-final loser in the IC Title Contenders Tournament, now playing 3rd fiddle to Regal and Punk.

R-Truth

A nice build-up, a cool "through the crowd, rapping" gimmick, some flashy moves - this was supposed to be a Renassaince for former NWA Champion Ron Killings, but creative dropped his push like a bad habit, and it's anyone's guess if he ever resurfaces.

Shelton Benjamin

Still the US Champion, but one could easily make the case that the US Title has supplanted the IC Title and Tag Titles in terms of overall worthlessness. Rarely defended in a pay per view or big-match setting, Shelton seems to just be keeping it warm for the "next mid-card superstar" at this point.



So, that being said, is the push over for "The Black Champions?"

More importantly, especially since Michael Hayes is still employed, does the WWE feel that enough time has passed and people have forgotten about Hayes and his comments? Or that the offended wrestlers have been properly compensated with their recent pushes?

I, for one, am concerned about this. The timelines follow too closely - a sudden influx of black champions, and then a sudden end to those same pushes. And it also makes me stop and reassess if the WWE really does operate with, whether they know it or not, racial pretenses. I hope I am wrong.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Michael Hayes didn't even make racist comments. He made anti-racist comments. He said "Mark Henry, you're not a racial slur". It's like saying he called me an idiot if he said, "I'm more of an idiot than you". The entire thing was ludicrous.

But is the black push over? I can honestly see no major signs of affirmative action left in WWE. I honestly can't think of any black competitor really succeeding in WWE right now. Does D'Lo Brown count as black? He's mixed race, isn't he? Well, he's certainly not experiencing great success at the moment.

So yes, it's over.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

IC is racist.

But you have to think that WWE operates under racial pretenses. EVERY COMPANY DOES. If they don't have a certain number of black people on staff, then poo hits all over the fan and people get sued. Take the NFL for example. Even if a team KNOWS who it wants as its new head coach, they HAVE to interview a minority candidate.

It seems ridiculous and counter-effective if African-Americans are looking to gain equality, as by their own enforced decrees, they are causing further segregation.


Why do you think that Kofi's push is over? I think he has the Rey Mysterio effect going for him in that all the little tykes like his energy and "BOOM BOOM BOOM." He held the IC title for a couple months and has been a mainstay on a crowded Raw.

 

[Mr. TM]

If there was a black push, I'm not sure, but it appears that athletes in the WWE who are black have gone cold as individuals. Mark Henry is a guy that will always push up and comers, though never reach that high himself. That is his job, and he did it for Matt Hardy. R Killings was killed by creative, when it seems people stopped caring. Cryme Tyme is a victim of the weak tag team division, and the injury to Cena. Shelton himself though seems to be still moving along at a nice push. He will get to the top of the Mid Card, and remain champion like he has been doing, and will go over other midcards for a while. He'll probably get his taste of the Main Event for a few shows, then be shuffled back down to the midcard.

If these pushed that had occurred were because of issues of race or not, it seems black wrestlers have collectively been haltered at the moment. I suspect it is all to do with individual wrestlers being haltered, and not due to racial issues.

 

[My$terio_Fan]

Well you couldn't expect that all thoes guys could have countinued to be as pushed as hard as they were. But I do think the WWE thinks enough time has passed that they can stop caring. Really they just end up looking more racist then ever since it seems like because of the racist comment so many black guys got pushes, now all of a sudden since a few months has passed and the accusations have stopped they have again given up on black guys. It was ridiculous in the first place to have pushed all thoes guys because of their color(if they did). Talent should come above anything no matter the color.

 

[klunderbunker]

Yeah it's over and I think it's for the better. Of those 5 guys, two of them were capable of handling the pushes they got. Cryme Tyme is little more than a comedy act. They're decent in the ring, but Miz and Morrison are 100x the team they'll ever be. They get pops because they're somewhat funny and taht's it. Mark Henry got a fairly decent ECW title run and they gave the belt to someone more deserving that gets better reactions and has been a success as champion. Henry has had more chances than anyone to be put over and he's never come close. He should be happy with what he's gotten.

Shelton and Kofi are a different story. Kofi has pretty much lost his push, but because of WWE's insistance on putting popular faces that have nothing to do with each other into tag teams lately. He's easily the most likely of the four to get back to where he was before.

Shelton never really had a push to begin with. He's the US champion and has been for a long time. The title means little, and that's where he still is. He didn't really gain much as the IC reigns he had a few years ago were miles better than this one.

 

[Big Sexy]

Cryme Tyme is little more than a comedy act. They're decent in the ring, but Miz and Morrison are 100x the team they'll ever be. They get pops because they're somewhat funny and taht's it.

Miz and Morrison are not that much better as a team then Cryme Tyme. When Cryme Tyme wrestles they actually do so as a tag team, with actual tag team moves. Cryme Tyme is also better on the mic then Miz and Morrison.

Back to the question, it does seem like the push is over. Pushes should always be based on talent, but the WWE hasn't always done it that way. They realized that they hadn't been pushing black guys so they did it for a while to save themselves from being called racist, but now that they think they're in the clear they've just stopped doing it. The WWE just needs to push who deserves it. Shelton Benjamin is the most athletic and arguably most talented wrestler in the WWE so he deserves his push. Kofi is a great young talent that is over with the crowd, so he desereves it. Cryme Tyme is the most popular tag team in the WWE and are very underrated as in-ring performers, so they deserve it. And even Mark Henry who has been a solid worker for over 10 years deserved his push. All of these guys might have gotten their pushes for the wrong reasons, but it was the right thing to do and the WWE shouldn't stop the pushes because they believe they are in the clear.

 

[grahambrown]

It seems ridiculous and counter-effective if African-Americans are looking to gain equality, as by their own enforced decrees, they are causing further segregation.

I don't want to get into a discussion that has nothing to do with wrestling, but this is a very ignorant perspective. In order for centuries of American racism to be counteracted, intentional efforts have to be made, whether it's in the ring, the workforce, or whatever. To say that WWE going out of their way to push African-American superstars only creates further diversity just isn't true.

Prejudices and inequality have to be overcome with effort, not just the passing of time or coincidence. I applaud WWE for "the Black Push" (if it was a legitimate effort) and any attempts made to broaden the scope of wrestling fans, which I feel is a dire need.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I don't want to get into a discussion that has nothing to do with wrestling, but this is a very ignorant perspective.

No, it's not. If people want equality but then moan when they don't get more shortcuts than everyone else, it's ridiculous. That's not equality. People should be judged on their own merits and not awarded just to fill ridiculous quotas. Kofi Kingston isn't as good as John Cena, for example, so it's right that Cena is champion and Kingston is not.

In order for centuries of American racism to be counteracted, intentional efforts have to be made, whether it's in the ring, the workforce, or whatever.

I actually take a right wing (and I mean original right wing, yo) position on this, which is unusual for me. If people have to be forced to think things and certain social groups have to be pushed ahead of others - that's just counteractive. For social change to mean anything, it has to be organic.

To say that WWE going out of their way to push African-American superstars only creates further diversity just isn't true.

Diversity? I'm cool with diversity. It creates divisions. When you put a certain group of people ahead of others because of their skin colour to, I dunno, "fight" racism, it's just incredibly, incredibly hypocritical.

Prejudices and inequality have to be overcome with effort, not just the passing of time or coincidence.

Except it just creates bitterness and extends segregation. People should just be trusted to have common sense.

I applaud WWE for "the Black Push" (if it was a legitimate effort) and any attempts made to broaden the scope of wrestling fans, which I feel is a dire need.

It's just a great shame that apparently none of the black wrestlers did anything with their newly won belts and have swiftly ended back on square on. Well, Benjamin's on square two. He's so used to it it may as well be square one though.

 

[The Roid Rage]

IC is racist.

Shut the hell up!!! I am not the guy who likes to flame others and so on but you need to shut your mouth. You don't go and say that shit about someone for bringing up a topic and speaking their mind, and if in fact the guy is racist, that's his perogative.

I just have to say that this whole issue is a bullshit issue. No one owed Kofi, Henry, Benjamin, R-truth, Cryme Tyme or anyone else anything for any reason. In the business you make your own success to a degree by your in ring performance, crowd reaction, and marketability. I'm sorry if you have a problem with that and have to use the race card to further yourself, I didn't realize you were that pathetic but guess what? sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. Some days people love you, other days they hate you, it's called life in the business. WWE did what they did to show that they in fact were not racist at all, they said "okay take a look, we are putting big money, t.v. time, marketing, and major resources into these guys" They gave them shots and none of them were able to do anything with it, that is not the fault of anyone but them. If you can't win the crowd you are stuck. Why else do you think Shelton Benjamin has been stuck in the mid card. He is not very marketable because he lacks mic skills, personality, and intrigue. No one gives a shit what he does or what title he holds, the only reason he has a title is probably because he is such a good wrestler and so he has been given what he deserves, he has been rewarded with numerous title runs, and they have put the effort into trying to make him bigger but guess what, the fans don't respond to him for whatever reason so he will never make it and further than he is now. That's not racist, that's business bitch!!!

Nothing pisses me off more than a bunch of people crying about race. Get down off your fucking cross, build a bridge, and get over it okay!!! For God sake, stop acting like slavery just ended yesterday, and segregation was ended today 5 minutes ago. No one owes any black man or woman in modern day anything. If there is one black guy today who has ever been a slave or anything like that I would love to meet him and give him my humblest apologies for that, but there are none so FUCK OFF!!! All that shit is, is an excuse, just another excuse to get a hand out you didn't deserve and refused to go out and earn like anyone else. Uncle Sam is right about the whole issue and he is right that Michael Hayes didn't actually say anything racist he just used the word "******" That's rights I said it "******" who cares? It's a fucking word. If you are such a candy ass, over sensitive cry baby that sticks and stones break your bones but nothing hurts like words, than you need a swift kick in the ass and you need to grow some fucking balls.

I don't give a shit if you are black, white, yellow, blue, green, magenta, or turquoise if I am a promoter like Vince McMahon and the crowd likes you and your a good wrestler I am going to do what I can to make you a star and make both of us some money. But, if the crowd doesn't get behind you, if you aren't that good a wrestler, and I can't make any money off of you than give me one good reason I should sink a bunch of money into trying to make you a star if you just don't have "it"? Because someone said a naughty word and your black? Yeah right, kiss my grits and go fuck yourself I'm not doing anything for you unless I have a damn good reason.

When you put a certain group of people ahead of others because of their skin colour to, I dunno, "fight" racism, it's just incredibly, incredibly hypocritical.

Hallebouyah!!!!

If people have to be forced to think things and certain social groups have to be pushed ahead of others - that's just counteractive. For social change to mean anything, it has to be organic.

Hallebouyah!!!!Hallebouyah!!!!

If people want equality but then moan when they don't get more shortcuts than everyone else, it's ridiculous. That's not equality. People should be judged on their own merits and not awarded just to fill ridiculous quotas.

Hallebouyah!!!!Hallebouyah!!!!Hallebouyah!!!!

 

[grahambrown]

Good lord, you're the reason that wrestling fans and the wrestling industry will never be viewed as more than a bunch of hicks. So it's someone's prerogative if they want to be racist? So, is it my prerogative if I want to be a rapist, murder, or pedophile?

Everything you said was incredibly racist and bigoted and I'm sorry to say that I'm ashamed to be associated with a sport that has fans with such ignorant opinions. You clearly have no perceptions of the racial situation in America. Yes, as you say, slavery didn't end yesterday, but as long as there are individuals like yourself, minorities will be fighting an uphill battle. Don't throw around racial slurs. Don't pretend like racism isn't a problem.

If you want to argue that black wrestlers don't deserve special treatment, that's perfectly fine. I would probably agree with you on that. But don't even act as if you have an anywhere close to educated opinion on race relations in this country in a general sense.

You, my friend, are unbelievably ignorant and rude. I am thoroughly ashamed that professional wrestling attracts individuals like yourself.

 

[DC24]

I pushes were judged on talent Triple H or Ric Flair would have never been world champs as many times as they were plain and simple. Do I think black wrestlers deserve favors absolutely not. But where Cryme Tyme title shot they was promised last year that never happened I didn't forget that. Even though the Rock is mixed Booker T is the black world champ Vince has ever had.

 

[Showtime]

Yes, I'd say the push is over, but let's not say it happened solely based on Hayes and if it did, let's thank him a bit. Everyone of those guys, yes even Henry, deserved a chance to be given a push and to see what happens. They weren't given big or hugely important titles of pushes, just the middle card titles and just to see how they'd do. My opinion is none of them did bad. Henry was actually a decent ECW champion and it's been a long time coming for Henry who's been jobber to the stars for forever now and deserved something to justify his 10 plus years with the company. Kofi was a breath of fresh air in the IC division that Jericho sucked the life out of. Shelton had worked his butt off in ECW and maybe his US push was a bit too early, but he was a stellar champion in the early going. Cryme Tyme's push was different as it was more used to help make Cena more popular again, something he really needed as for the last year before that he'd been on the receiving end of as many boos as cheers.

Anyway, they all had their pushes, to varying degrees of success, and when the time is right, I'm sure at least Kofi and Benjamin will be put back in the spotlight. For Henry, that was his moment in the spotlight, perhaps the only one he will ever receive and we should be happy for him and Cryme Tyme... they're popular, but I find there act getting old. Maybe soon is the time for them to be pushing Shad as the next Bobby Lashley and JTG as the other guy and break them up. I know the WWE does not have a long standing history of Black Heavyweight champions (they have like 2, Booker and the Rock), maybe in the coming years, they can change that image a bit, maybe.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Shut the hell up!!! I am not the guy who likes to flame others and so on but you need to shut your mouth. You don't go and say that shit about someone for bringing up a topic and speaking their mind, and if in fact the guy is racist, that's his perogative.

Hey man, easy. Ricky forgot the smiley face next to the "IC Is Racist" comment, but he and I are actually buds on the boards and he was just razzing me for the thread. He wasn't actually implying that I am racist, don't worry.

Anyway, you made a very entertaining post. I'd like to respond.

First off, you claimed that nobody owed a thing to the black wrestlers like Kofi, Cryme Tyme, etc. because of "The Michael Hayes Incident." And I agree with you. But isn't it a little odd that all of those pushes and re-hires occured at the same time, within days of the news breaking of Hayes' comments? Too much consistency to be pure coincidence.

And now, it appears that all of it has been dropped. Is it too much to stretch the conspiracy theory to ask yourself "maybe, just maybe, did a meeting take place during which the creative team was told 'ok, we've done our damage control, now let's ge back to normal?" Maybe that's not the case, but again, consistency > coincidence.

So it's someone's prerogative if they want to be racist? So, is it my prerogative if I want to be a rapist, murder, or pedophile?

Sure, it's your prerogative to be a rapist, murderer, pedophile, etc. What isn't your prerogative is acceptance of the consequences of those actions. Let's assume for a moment Hayes is racist. That's his choice. Let's say he made comments acting on those feelings. Free will, also his choice. But the comments he made, context or not, almost got him fired. You have the right through free will to do and say anything you want, but you have to accept the consequences of those actions.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Everything you said was incredibly racist and bigoted

I'm inclined to disagree, The_Game_Rage showed no racism in his post, but a great deal of common sense that I happen to agree with.

and I'm sorry to say that I'm ashamed to be associated with a sport that has fans with such ignorant opinions.

What was ignorant about his post? Was it telling us slavery didn't end yesterday? Was it telling us we don't owe black people anything? Because that's not ignorant, that's correct.

Yes, as you say, slavery didn't end yesterday,

Which is why people need to give up on it and forget about it. It doesn't mean anything in today's society. I don't know one black person who was a slave. and I don't know one white person who kept slaves.

but as long as there are individuals like yourself, minorities will be fighting an uphill battle.

*Sigh* They're hardly fighting an uphill battle. Because I'm concious of this being in the wrestling sections, I'll talk about that. There are many more white wrestlers than there are black in the WWE. The Main Event is full of white wrestlers. So? All that means is that there isn't a black wrestler who is good enough to be with the likes of Cena, Orton, HHH etc. It has nothing to do witht heir race. They're not fighting a battle. They're just not good enough.

Don't throw around racial slurs. Don't pretend like racism isn't a problem.

I'll say whatever words I like. It's just a word. A word like "******" cannot be called racist, when a large section of black people use it as a term for each other.

You, my friend, are unbelievably ignorant and rude. I am thoroughly ashamed that professional wrestling attracts individuals like yourself.

I feel the same way about you.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Good lord, you're the reason that wrestling fans and the wrestling industry will never be viewed as more than a bunch of hicks. So it's someone's prerogative if they want to be racist? So, is it my prerogative if I want to be a rapist, murder, or pedophile?

Technically, yes. If I understand what that word means correctly.

Everything you said was incredibly racist and bigoted and I'm sorry to say that I'm ashamed to be associated with a sport that has fans with such ignorant opinions.

Yeah, wrestling fans are the problem here. Why not just be ashamed to belong to a race with ignorant opinions, a town with ignorant opinions or a species with ignorant opinions? I mean, c'mon!

You clearly have no perceptions of the racial situation in America. Yes, as you say, slavery didn't end yesterday, but as long as there are individuals like yourself, minorities will be fighting an uphill battle.

You mean someone that will give minorities the same chance as everyone else rather than handing them everything on a silver platter?

Don't throw around racial slurs. Don't pretend like racism isn't a problem.

I refer to the Xfearbefore school of thought here. A word itself isn't racist. It's just a word. It's the context it's used within.

You, my friend, are unbelievably ignorant and rude. I am thoroughly ashamed that professional wrestling attracts individuals like yourself.

See above.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

I don't want to get into a discussion that has nothing to do with wrestling, but this is a very ignorant perspective.

Failed. Well, it has SOMETHING to do with wrestling. But wrestling is far smaller than racism. Ignorance? We'll see.

In order for centuries of American racism to be counteracted, intentional efforts have to be made, whether it's in the ring, the workforce, or whatever. To say that WWE going out of their way to push African-American superstars only creates further diversity just isn't true.

Why? How is equality being pursued if special circumstances are made for African-Americans? I don't have a problem with blacks wanting to be an equal player in society with myself and other white folk, as I see them as nothing but my contemporaries. However, using my NFL example, it's clear that special circumstances are created in order to simply promote this kind of institutional, paper equality. But by doing that, they are just further proving that there is a deep separation. How is that helpful to the cause?

Prejudices and inequality have to be overcome with effort, not just the passing of time or coincidence. I applaud WWE for "the Black Push" (if it was a legitimate effort) and any attempts made to broaden the scope of wrestling fans, which I feel is a dire need.

You applaud "the Black Push"? How is a "black push" doing ANYTHING to promote equality?

Oh fiddlesticks, Hayes made some potentially racist remarks...if we don't put the belts on Mark Henry, Shelton Benjamin, and Kofi, we could get sued.

So, in essence, according to "the Black Push" argument, the overriding reason that these wrestlers carried titles was because of their race. Is that equality? NO. Does it promote equality? NO. They only pushed them to save face. Mark Henry has been the World's Strongest Jobber for his entire career, and then, suddenly has a legitimate "world" title reign, having never owned a title during the entirety of his WWF/E career. This is just a symptom of the policies of the ACLU, who by constantly moping about African-Americans not being given fair opportunities, have done nothing but barely allow blacks to get in the door and then stay dormant instead of NOT making a fuss and allowing them to be viewed just as any other person, allowing them to flourish.

 

[The Roid Rage]

Well, I would like to first thank Ricky Maivia, Uncle Sam, HBK-aholic, and Mr.IrishCanadian25 for their words of support to my statements as they were in fact in no way shape or form racist or ignorant.

I also owe an apology to Ricky Maivia and another thank you to Mr.IrishCanadian25 for setting me straight on that issue. Obviously you understood the way it looked and that I was just trying to defend you. So, my apologies to you Ricky Maivia, I am sorry, you know how it looked, and hopefully understand what I was doing. And of course Thank you Mr.IrishCanadian25 for clearing that up for me. I was only trying to be a stand up guy. Now, on with the post >>>>>>

Anyway, you made a very entertaining post. I'd like to respond.

- Mr. IrishCanadian25

Thank you, thank you. That's all it was intended to be. I know I swear a lot, but it just puts emphasis on points and emboldens them.

But isn't it a little odd that all of those pushes and re-hires occured at the same time, within days of the news breaking of Hayes' comments? Too much consistency to be pure coincidence.

- Mr. IrishCanadian25

OH absolutely, no coincidence at all. It was obvious and blatant. I however think the WWE did the best thing they could do at the time with the situation as it was. I think they were put in a bad spot and were stuck with selecting the lesser of two evils in a sense. Take a look now as proof, some people thinking that the WWE in and of itself is racist and so on. To me it is thoughts like that that are incredibly ridiculous and poorly thought out.

And now, it appears that all of it has been dropped. Is it too much to stretch the conspiracy theory to ask yourself "maybe, just maybe, did a meeting take place during which the creative team was told 'ok, we've done our damage control, now let's ge back to normal?" Maybe that's not the case, but again, consistency > coincidence.

- Mr. IrishCanadian25


No, your probably right on the money. As I said they did what they had to do and when you look at it from a business angle what more could they do? Honestly I think they were taking a gamble by doing what they did due to the fact that people aren't really interested in those particular guys they tried to push. That could have costed them big and in a way has because of the fake image of the company some people have perceived. Part of what I have been saying in retrospect is that even if that is what they did, it is not a racist thing. The only guy I think did deserve a shot was Mark Henry for the same reasons others did, his long time in the company with little to show for it on his resume. But hey, you want to talk about racist, this is a guy who calls himself the "Silverback" like a gorilla ok that's in my view worse than what Hayes said which wasn't really bad anyways.

Well, I am almost done I just have one little bone to pick and I will keep the flames low if at all on.

Grahambrown, I would like to just address some of the slander you threw at me as the others did and hope you learn from your poor choice of words and skewed perception.

you're the reason that wrestling fans and the wrestling industry will never be viewed as more than a bunch of hicks.

That's actually funny because I am from the city and the last thing anyone who knows me would label me as is either a. a racist or b a hick. I'm from the inner city at that. I think maybe you are the one with the racial biased referring to me as a hick and trying to paint that picture of me. That's too bad, so should I get a hold of the ACLU and get them on your ass for impugning my rights and spitting racial slurs at me??? No. Like I said in my first post, words are words and if they are that big a deal to you than you need to grow some balls and get some thicker skin. If that's all it takes to ruffle your feathers and get you all worked up, maybe you have some other issues you need to address.

So it's someone's prerogative if they want to be racist? So, is it my prerogative if I want to be a rapist, murder, or pedophile?

Yep, it is. But, as someone else said the part that is not your choice is the consequences of your actions. If you have a problem with that I don't know anywhere in the world your going to make it. Here in the USA we have that luxury of being free to be whoever we want and think or feel whatever we want. Now if you decide you want to be a rapist, ok, but if you act on it there a repercussions and probably prison time involved. That is justice, and equality at it's finest. If Michael Hayes would have been calling Mark Henry a ******, and a bunch of other racial slurs and burning crosses in his locker room while wearing a white hood, I could could understand the outrage and he would have probably been fired indefinitely and be facing a lawsuit or something, one again justice and equality.

Everything you said was incredibly racist and bigoted and I'm sorry to say that I'm ashamed to be associated with a sport that has fans with such ignorant opinions.

You know what, I am the one who is sorry. I am sorry that there are folks like yourself who seem to be so held up on racism. No one else thought what I said was racist or a form of bigotry so obviously it is you who are seeing things as a racist and bigot. As far as ignorant opinions go, so far you're quite adept at giving those so please don't let me stop you. As for the shame of your association I think you should really be ashamed at yourself for trying to take something truthful and fair that was said and twist it into racist bigoted remarks for reasons beyond myself or anyone else here.

You clearly have no perceptions of the racial situation in America. Yes, as you say, slavery didn't end yesterday, but as long as there are individuals like yourself, minorities will be fighting an uphill battle.

No perception of the racial situation in America huh ??? Want to know about my racial situation? Where I live if your white you better watch your ass because the blacks will beat the shit out of you for no reason other than that. They know that you can't do anything back to them or you'll be charged with a hate crime, and so they do as they please to whomever they please and try to bully and intimidate everyone they can. So why don't you tell me about racial situations again? I am not a racist at all. In high school I used to get the shit beat out of me frequently, like at least once a week by at least a group of 7-15 black guys because I was the big white kid at school and they all wanted to show how tough they were and they knew they could get away with it. Why could they get away with it? Because if I said anything they would have either knifed me, beat me so bad I was hospitalized, or just killed me. One time they were going to, they tried to lure me to a certain place where a bunch more people were all waiting to either shoot me or worse. Through it all I always extended my hand in friendship and tried to get along with them and it never worked but I never retaliated in hate, or anger, and through it all I still had other black friends, so basically you don't know shit about me or the real racial situation in this country. The truth is that the same thing happens everywhere, hell I wasn't the only guy that got beat up for no reason, they did it to anyone and everyone they wanted. I have had friends my whole life of all national origins and racial descents, please, check yourself before you wreck yourself - Ice Cube.

Don't pretend like racism isn't a problem.

That's the thing it's not, it your black, or asian, or hispanic, etc etc etc.... You know why I say that? Because of the example I gave you above. Tell me how racist is a problem when it is the black community who pushes stereotypes on themselves and acts them out, or how racism is a problem when 15 black guys can beat up a white guy with no consequence and if I do anything to them it's a hate crime? How is racism a problem when I can get turned away from a college I have a. the money to go to and b. the intelligence to go to because they are going to let a black person who can't pay for it and can't pass an entry exam in due to affirmative action? Or how about groups like the NAACP and ACLU who do everything and anything to keep racism an issue so they can stay in business ? Or how about back in the 90's when FUBU came out and everyone found out it meant FOR US BY US and it was a black owned company? I think the pendulum of racism is more swinging towards whites than anyone, we are more profiled and mocked and ridiculed than anyone else and have no protection of any kind under law so where is the racism. There was just an example of how anyone can make a case for racism. The truth of the matter is that racism is not real, it is a concept that can only have real aspects if you observe them or practice it.

But don't even act as if you have an anywhere close to educated opinion on race relations in this country in a general sense.

So now you have called me an uneducated hick, how very racist of you. First you assume I am a hick then under that assumption that I am uneducated. I am willing to bet 10-1 I am higher educated than you, and have a better scope of the race relations in this country. 4 years of college in a private school that is a top ten institution in the country, that's what I've got, and I am from the inner city, and I am nowhere near a hick. I dress in urban clothes, listen to rap music all the time, go to hip-hop concerts and help promote them to build them local hip-hop scene, I have a ton of black friends who all think of me as one of them because I am anything but racist or a hick, and I have had a number of black girlfriends, and over all am more into hip-hop culture than anything else. Wow, what a racist bigot hick I must be huh???

You, my friend, are unbelievably ignorant and rude. I am thoroughly ashamed that professional wrestling attracts individuals like yourself.

Ignorant and rude you say??? I might be a little too outspoken at times and so I can see the thought of me being ruse that's cool, I am really into free speech and freedom of thought so I can imagine how rude that seems. As for ignorance, I have seen both ends of the spectrum and experienced love and hate from blacks, whites, Latinos, Asians, and everyone else, so I guess life experience backed by grade A education is ignorant now, ok. You should only be so ashamed that your view is so narrow and that you are too blinded by anger and hate to see it. That has little to do with wrestling.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I think the bigger question to ask is if anyone honestly cares? I mean, not withstanding the nice sub-plot of race being thrown into the mix, but did any of those individuals truly have a nice range of talent to carry them anywhere to begin with?

Shelton Benjamin was about the closest you could get to an overall decent wrestler, but the guy is as stale as month old bread. He's a great wrestler, fun to watch and an enjoyment in gimmick (ie. ladder) matches.. but if I have to sit through him attempting to cut more promos, I think I'm going to mute the t.v. and begin talking for him just to see if it can make me find it any more enjoyable.

Meanwhile, Mark Henry isn't really getting depushed, I mean he's still "the" top guy (heel) on the E.C.W. brand until at least next Tuesday when Jack Swagger may or may not unseat Matt Hardy. And even after that they've set up what could be semi-interesting in a possible Triple Threat feud.

Kofi Kingston's disappearance has truly shocked me. I think he has a nice overall equal-ness to him that makes him a worthy Intercontinental leader, and definately worth putting in a Tag Team with Punk for boosting that division. Instead, he's randomly getting his ass handed to him by Mike Knox of all people.. I just don't get that.

Finally, Cryme Tyme.. well, they don't need the Tag Team Championships because they're doing what they were brought back for.. they interact well with the fans. They don't need gold, they need the ability to sell everyone ELSE'S merch. which is more or less what they do. As long as people find their rap-like lyrics and catchy "money, money, yeah, yeah" catch-phrase entertaining.. they'll have a job.

 

[golden miz]

Let me add something that I see missing. If you look behind race, each of these guys have questonable in-ring skills. Lets look at benjamen and Henery, both of these guys are boring in-ring and offer little carismia or personality. These guys have talent but they lack something special and I think the only reason they are still with the company is to stay diverse. Now with Kofi, he has carismia but comes off as a comical joke even though thats not what is meant by his character, if he lost that music, that childish way about him, and wrestled seriously he will get respect because come on he's as much of a joke as santino and with him, at least he's trying to make a fool out of himself. As for ron killings, he has potential if someone gave him a gimic other then a low life rapper, hes exciting but porely used. Now when you think of crime tyme, they had pushes but after watching them for 5 minutes you get bored since their routine is so stale. Worked at one point but not anymore, right now their only purpose is to provide entertaiment for the kids because it seems younger kids connect to them, they need to be repackaged then they will be great. As for the one black star MVP, I can't say that I like him at all but he does have good mic skills but questionable inring skills, he will be good if he looses that outfit and starts wining, I think he is a positive black figure on the show. It is obvious that WWE is not rasist, look at all the other ethnic pushes they've given in the past, puerto rican, mexican, asian, and wrestlers from many other cultures have gotten major long lasting pushes so I dont think that racisim has anything to do with it. The only reason that not many ethnic people have rwon the world title is because no one other then booker, rock, mysterio, and eddie have proved that they have the carisma and personality to be marketed as the top comodity of the WWE, when someone with this carisma comes allong in due time they will get the title regardless of their culture. Stop complaning because no one is coming after african americans, and if you stop complaning and start truely accepting yourselves as equals you will realize that we all been good with you guys for a while.

 

[Joker ' Ferreira]

Yeah, its all about racism.

If it isn't because they don't have the titles it's because they do... Mark Henry deserved a push, as all the others listed. They were good employees and had the credentials to deserve a push, well but you always have to think that's not it.

Mark Henry was transfered to ECW to be a transitional champion on the brand, he beat Kane that was drafted to RAW, totally normal, Big Show didn't need the title and Kane didn't make any sense with the title at RAW, the same applies to Matt Hardy, he was drafted to ECW and someone needed a US-Championship push? Well... Shelton did and he got it.

R-Truth... he was pushed because he was a former NWA Champion and if that doesn't mean nothing, he is a former WWE employee too. What about Kofi? Well, he was on ECW and was probably the most over person in the entire company without the veterans and if that doesn't mean anything, again, he had the talent inside the ring to prove he deserved a title push.

Cryme Tyme, I don't like them at all but they do work well as a tag team, they probably are better than Morrison / Miz but they don't need the titles to get over as they do, before the "Black Push" as everyone wants to think there was, Bobby Lashley was the top-face of the company, even stronger than John Cena, doesn't that ring you any bell?

 

[Uncle Sam]

Yeah, its all about racism.

Well, technically...

If it isn't because they don't have the titles it's because they do...

Erm, yeah. Black athletes getting titles signals the beginning of the push and them losing it signals the end of it. Simple algebra.

Mark Henry deserved a push,

as all the others listed.

They were good employees and had the credentials to deserve a push, well but you always have to think that's not it.

True, it could be a massive coincidence. But it would have to be a massive one. If I saw a bunch of cruiserweights being pushed, I'd call it. "There's a cruiserweight push", I'd say, "possibly to do with Michael Hayes' comment of "I'm more agile than you".

Mark Henry was transfered to ECW to be a transitional champion on the brand

Likely because Michael Hayes said he wasn't an N-word.

R-Truth... he was pushed because he was a former NWA Champion

That doesn't mean anything.

and if that doesn't mean nothing,

It doesn't, no.

he is a former WWE employee too.

The highlight of his career was saying, "Now that's a very white Christmas." Racist.

What about Kofi? Well, he was on ECW and was probably the most over person in the entire company

without the veterans and if that doesn't mean anything,

It would, if it were true. Jamaican me crazy.

again, he had the talent inside the ring to prove he deserved a title push.

No he didn't.

Cryme Tyme, I don't like them at all but they do work well as a tag team,

No they don't. They suck. So do Miz and Morrison while we're at it.

they probably are better than Morrison / Miz but they don't need the titles to get over as they do,

They're over?

before the "Black Push" as everyone wants to think there was, Bobby Lashley was the top-face of the company, even stronger than John Cena, doesn't that ring you any bell?

Nope, it really, really doesn't.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Well apparently so, to answer the actual question to the thread. Henry is good as done with Jack Swagger (white) poised to take the title next week, therefore giving ECW a heel champion. RTruth for whatever reason just stop getting used. I mean, what happened, is all the sudden NOT a former NWA champion anymore??? No, he still is that, so obviously his initial push was becuase he was black. Cryme Tyme didnt come around during black gate, so they arent really comparable. And it could be argued that Shelton was never actually pushed, even with the US title. I think its more obvious now that the belt was more taken OFF Hardy as much as it was given to Shelton. They knew it would look good until the Hayes thing blew over, and pretty obviously had no long term plans for the title reighn. Id say the results of all the pushes are pretty indicitive that it was based on race, as suddenly as they all stopped, or lead absolutely nowere over time.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

The black push is over because none of the black wrestlers who recieved pushes deserved or did anything with them.

Kofi Kingston was undeserving of the worthless Intercontinental Title. For somebody who was ''the most over person in the entire company'' his matches with Birchill sure put a lot of people to sleep. On the positive, lots of merchandise was sold during that time.

Mark Henry didn't have the charisma or talent to even carry a mid card title like the ECW Championship. He was so dull that they gave him a manager. Nobody has a manager these days. He was more over as Sexual Chocolate. Which will probably make a return considering there isn't much for him to do now he's frequently lost to career mid carder Matt Hardy.

So I was watching Unforgiven 2008 this morning, specifically the Smackdown Scramble match. I was watching and I totally forgotten that Shelton Benjamin was still with the company, let alone still a champion. Don't get me wrong, if I have to watch a Money In The Bank ladder match, I want Shelton involved. But all he can do is jump and fall of things.


So yeah, WWE should only really push white people from now on. They seem to get the job done.

I'm joking

 

[Joker ' Ferreira]

Losing the titles means that? Are you sure? Or means that someone else needs the push? Or are you saying that Henry didn't put Matt Hardy over as hell? Probably he didn't need to be more over than he was but that is another subject. Didn't he work well as the top main eventer of ECW? I don't like him in the ring and the reason to that is pretty obvious, he is slow but I don't think that anyone with that size could work better than him.

Yes, Mark Henry deserved a push, he worked well for the company for several years and the problems that he had with injurying another wrestlers it's because they don't let him work as he wants too,since he got to ECW he didn't get in any trouble of that kind, and pretty much worked helping young talent get over him, I think that Mark Henry didn't beat any new talent since becoming an ECW Wrestler, only Matt Hardy but that is totally different.

Ohh, so you are saying that Kofi wasn't over enough? Well, without the veterans (and I mean people in the company for more than 4 years, like Cena, Batista, Undertaker, the list goes on and on), he was definitely over, I'm not comparing him with the likes of Cena or so, that would be stupid, he was probably the most over face on the company being so new in it, and Im not saying that right now he is over as hell because he is not, and that is own fault, he didn't prove anything inside the ring since the draft, on ECW he was fresh, new and had some interesting matches.

Bobby Lashley is black and the push he got was before the "Black Push" as you know, so, I didn't started a thread saying that black guys were being pushed, didn't it? Lashley being an asshole as much as Lesnar was, is other thing.

In general I do believe they deserved the push they got, Cryme Tyme, as much as yourself I don't like them either but they were receiving very good pops when they returned and they still do, I don't think they need the titles, and thank god they don't need them.

Well, but now they don't need the push, only Shelton but he isn't doing anything with it, I don't want to argue about today, because as I said Shelton is the only one that still deserves the push but he is going nowhere with it, Mark Henry doesn't need the push again, he is now seen as a top force in ECW, Kofi doesn't deserve another push because he didn't got anything with the last one, and R-Truth is with troubles with the creative team...