Is Sampling Cheating???

[Alex]

So recently Rihanna sampled Metallica's Wherever I May Roam for her song Red Lipstick for her new album

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=166294

my question is, is sampling cheating??

I mean if you like a song and there's a bit you want to use fair enough, but at least re-record it for yourself and don't just lift the existing part from the original, I think its just lazy and it makes you look second rate if you have to use the original music of another artist.

 

[#hamler]

Second rate? If sampling makes one look so second rate, why is Kanye West regarded as the best producer of this decade? All he does is sample. Listen to any Kanye West song, he's using a sample somehwere in the song. He loops it, and puts a kick ass beat on it and people are stunned. Kanye is a good example if how sample should be used. Instead of being called a cheater, he's labeled as a great producer because he can make any song into a hip hop beat.

For example, for 'Runaway' Kanye West sampled the drums from an interlude of the record 'The Main Ingredient' by Pete Rock & C.L Smooth. Pete Rock again sampled those drums from some 70's record 'Ski' who produced the legendary track 'Dead Presidents' by Jay-Z sampled a piano loop from Lonnie Liston Smith's record ' A garden of peace'. For the drums he used A Tribe Called Quest's 'Oh My God' Remix (most likely A Tribe Called Quest sampled those drums from somewhere else) and put a Nas vocalsample on top of it. That's sampling to the max. What do you get, a completely different style.

Sampling is a part of today's music. They dont just lay down a sample and start rapping or singing, it still takes time to produce track.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Well Rihanna is certainly not the first who did this, hell Kid Rock has made a career stealing other musicians guitar riffs and music and basically creating new lyrics for it, and I'm pretty sure he did play his band didn't play their own instruments for "American Badass" as it sound identical to Metallica's Sad But True. Not only that rappers and R&B artists have been sampling others music for the last 20 years, hell much of the rap industry is built on stealing others music, even Tupac did it.

Frankly I'm not the hugest fan of it, I do agree it promotes laziness but on the same note it sometimes it helps the song greatly by using samples of others music so for myself its kind of a mixed bag. I would rather them try and replicate it themselves but at the same time it can sound good. Also to be fair I feel 80% of the music industry since the year 2000 has been built on laziness. I don't think its second rate, it would be nice if they would try and replicate it without just taking a sample but at the end of the day if it sounds good in the song then its not a huge deal.

 

[JWGunslinger]

As long as you put your own twist on the song I see nothing wrong with it, as a huge Kid Rock fan theres no way I could be against it. I personally love when artists do this if they do so tastefully, it's always fun to hear a song that has another song wrapped into it with a new sound. Also it's cool because a song that's sampled could be an older song that has dropped in popularity, but when people hear it in a current song with a new twist then they might listen to the original song that was used and help bring it back to popularity.

[YOUTUBE]mt84J7U75e0[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Alex]

Second rate? If sampling makes one look so second rate, why is Kanye West regarded as the best producer of this decade? All he does is sample. Listen to any Kanye West song, he's using a sample somehwere in the song. He loops it, and puts a kick ass beat on it and people are stunned. Kanye is a good example if how sample should be used. Instead of being called a cheater, he's labeled as a great producer because he can make any song into a hip hop beat.

Yes you said Producer key word there, personally as a rapper I think he's alright, not great, his production skills are good but as a rapper he's pretty average.

Sampling is a part of today's music. They dont just lay down a sample and start rapping or singing, it still takes time to produce track.

Didn't Kanye pretty much just do that for Stronger by using the song by Daft Punk and rapping over it??

 

[Karilas]

As long as you put your own twist on the song I see nothing wrong with it, as a huge Kid Rock fan theres no way I could be against it. I personally love when artists do this if they do so tastefully, it's always fun to hear a song that has another song wrapped into it with a new sound. Also it's cool because a song that's sampled could be an older song that has dropped in popularity, but when people hear it in a current song with a new twist then they might listen to the original song that was used and help bring it back to popularity.

[YOUTUBE]mt84J7U75e0[/YOUTUBE]

Y'see in general I'm not against sampling, especially if there's some complex layering and such, but in terms of Kid Rock, I will NEVER forgive him for what he did to Sad But True.

It can be lazy to straight out sample a tune, but it can give it a nice new twist, also, what about the old school of cut and paste, eh? DJ Yoda's "How to Cut and Paste" albums are excellent, truly excellent.

 

[#hamler]

Yes you said Producer key word there, personally as a rapper I think he's alright, not great, his production skills are good but as a rapper he's pretty average.

Ok, what's the problem then? A rap producer makes beats. It has nothing to do with him being a rapper in anyway. If someone wants a good beat made, they go to Kanye. Kanye then looks through his collection of old beats from the '70's and '80's and loops it. Go look at a list of Kanye produced hits. Janet Jackson Beyonce, Jay-Z, Lil Wayne, Drake and tons of others have used him as a producer. Find a certain song and look up who he sampled. The work he does with producing is astounding.

Didn't Kanye pretty much just do that for Stronger by using the song by Daft Punk and rapping over it??

Not really. It still takes a good while to lay that beat, cut it up, slow it down, or do whatever he needs to do to tun it into Stronger. "Longer, Better, Faster, Stronger" by Daft Punk sounds completely different. He only used their samples over top of his own beat. Daft Punk even played a couple concerts with Kanye so sampling could seem as a sign of respect in tolday's culture rather than cheating.

EDIT - It's quite fun looking up songs that Kanye has sampled. For Kanye West's song Power he used King Crimson's 21st Century Schizoid Man, Afromerica by Continent Number 6 and It's Your Thing by Cold Grits. A lot of times, Kanye brings some more light into these forgotten songs. I actually think it was Stronger that after the day it was release, Daft Punk's version was one of the most downloaded songs on iTunes.

 

[Sparky]

No... Sometimes it just makes the song more catchier. Eminem does it as well, and he isn't the type that would need to cheat is he? The main people that do it are people that can and do come up with songs to any beat laid before them. So if they did think of part of a song only to realise that *insert other song* fits straight into it, It only makes sense to use it in the track.

Not to mention that some times when songs are sampled in others it also gets people to go out and buy the original song.

 

[Dagger Dias]

It depends on how much of the original song is used. Let's look at Rick James' "Super Freak" song as an example. It has notably been sampled in two other famous songs, MC Hammer's "Can't Touch This" and Jay-Z's "Kingdom Come".


The original.

[YOUTUBE]Nt4xlYXh0Fw[/YOUTUBE]


Now listen to the sample used in Can't Touch This. Nearly identical.

[YOUTUBE]WIHAkqCls4A[/YOUTUBE]


Finally, Kingdom Come. Completely different sound.

[YOUTUBE]RSOh-6-rxmE[/YOUTUBE]



If they take a portion from the original song and make it sound nearly identical to the original, but with new lyrics, then I find that to be lazy and cheating. Now, if they take a sample and turn it into something completely different, then that's not cheating because rather than give new lyrics to an old song they used the sample to improve a new song. As much as I loved MC Hammer's biggest hit, the use of that beat was lazy on his part. Jay-Z's song on the other hand is the way sampling should be used. Sampling makes fans go out and want to see what the sample was like in its original form, and when done correctly the fans will not be disappointed by hearing the same beat to another set of lyrics.

 

[Twiztid Rodimus]

This is a touchy subject. Is it cheating? No necessarily but not NOT cheating. ALOT of rappers/Rock stars have done this before. Some do it simply but a quick sample and looped or take an entire beat and do little to nothing. As much as I love The Rza, he's been lazy in samples before:Example
[youtube]9yLPRsCST8A[/youtube]
Rza do, VERY LITTLE to this beat at all. Besides slowing it down. The flutes are at 1:02
[youtube]eybntujyzd4[/youtube]

Or you can look at a unique sample from the Rza, which he takes a very small sample, and makes a beat around it:Example 2
[youtube]SrasgjD25jY[/youtube]
as compared to the original in:
[youtube]AwzaifhSw2c[/youtube]

Another example of a sample that has very little done:
[youtube]d7SoCQYnvNQ[/youtube]
Produced by Swizz Beats, Now, listen to the sample

[youtube]mudlXF3MA8Q[/youtube]
An AMAZING song, but Swizz, besides adding to the drums didn't do much. But it works well.

These are some HORRIBLE examples and usage of samples, Ones where the song is just uninspired and just bad songs:
Lil John
[youtube]pNhDlzWEUHU[/youtube]
This video even has some FAKE guitarists mock playing the riffs by the great Randy Rhoades. Sad indeed
[youtube]ogewZX8SUbE[/youtube]
He takes an amazing song from Requim for a dream, and bastardized the sample. Into a barely listenable song with all the yelling. Without the vocals, the beat is great. But its an example of the artists ruining a very promising beat


Rock/Metal has done this as well. But not directly most of the time (Kid Rock taking from Metallica/Lynard Skynard, or KoRn from Queen not withstanding)

They instead take riffs that sound VERY similar and tweak them a little.

[youtube]If-iHrVlKaA[/youtube]

I forgot who did this beat off hand, but it was off Relapse, ''Same song and dance'' by Eminem, It sampled, One by Metallica. a quick 2 second sample looped.
[youtube]ylAFY_m11l8[/youtube]

Is that stealing? Not exactly. These producers pay for the rights to use these samples, so its NOT stealing, Its paying and borrowing them. It's up to the listener if they like sampling or not. Hip hop was created on the back of sampling.

There are MANY songs without a single sample that are amazing from Hip hop. I'll point of my favorite producer, The Rza
[youtube]fYnRSESu6K0[/youtube] This is a beat HE made entirely

 

[Davi323]

I think it depends on how much credit they give to the original artists...

For example: Vanilla Ice flat out stealing the bass from Queen/David Bowie's Under Pressure. Not only did he lift it, but he refused to give credit where due. That is cheating, stealing, theft, whatever you want to call it. The Verve stealing from the Rolling Stones' Sympathy For the Devil was also a douchebag move, because they refused to credit the Stones or get permission. So is Coldplay plagerizing Joe Satriani's if I Could Fly with Viva La Vida. Blatant ripoff.

However, on the other end, you have someone like Weird Al Yankovic, who not only uses the same music, but writes a song that parodies the original. What Weird Al does is not stealing. First, it is protected free speech as a parody, and secondly, he tries to get permission from the original artists before doing it. He doesn't need to do that, but he does it anyway as a courtesy. Not only does he acknowledge the beats aren't his, but he lets the original artists know about it, and decide whether he can proceed. Some of the original artists even contribute to the parody, such as Dire Strait's Mark Knopfler playing guitar for the Money For Nothing parody, Beverly Hillbillies.

Also in this list would be "I'll Be Missing You" by Puff Daddy/P-Diddy/whatever the fuck he is calling himself these days. It's a direct lift of Every Breath You Take...but, he obviously got permission from Sting, as Sting helped him sing the song at an awards show live performance after it came out.

Essentially, If the original artist is cool with it, I have absolutely zero problems with sampling/using the same tune, and wouldn't consider it stealing/cheating. There is a difference between using another artist's music with permission and plagiarism.

 

[The Man They Call WMD]

This has come up a lot recently in the legal system
The first real case to bring it up was Luther Cambell from two Live Crew.
The supreme court said that it was a parody and set up a test used to determine if a copyright is violated.

The courts will apply a fairuse test when determining if a copyright was breached. The test balances
1.The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
2.The nature of the copyrighted work
3.The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
4.The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work .

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

I am not against sampling, alot of my favourite bands have written songs that take parts from other tracks from the past. I think pretty much every artist does it, and is influenced by sections of other musicians songs.

For anyone who is interested, check out this website which details the list of samples that every artist has done, and shows you the exact position in the original where the sample has been taken from and where it appears in the newer song, its pretty cool. I didnt realise just how much of music is sampled!


http://www.whosampled.com/

 

[Larry]

The only time I think it's wrong is when it is down right WRONG! What I mean by that is when it's done very poorly. For instance, Busta Rhymes sampled Al Green "Love and Happiness" on his album Disaster Strikes Back in a song called "Turn It Up" (You may be more familiar with the remix, Fire It Up) I thought it was done very well and it was a great song, no harm no foul. Westside Connection sampled The Stylistics "People Make the World Go Round" and turned that into "Gangstas Make The World Go Round" without making many changes to the original which is something I like. I like it when they sample a song and use almost the exact identical song but just make a tweak and show how great it was back then, and what it could be used to make now.

Hell, I just heard a song a while back that was an unreleased track from one of Snoop Dogg's albums called "Dog Collar" that was a direct, almost unchanged sample of Michael Jacksons' "Baby Be Mine" and it was awesome. Speaking of Sample Masters though, I think one of the best ever at that has got to be none other than Puff Daddy. He used The Isley Brothers "Between the Sheets" to make Notorious B.I.G.'s "Big Poppa", used The Police's "Every Breath You Take" to make "I'll Be Missing You", another track he produced for Notorious "Juicy" was a sample as well, I just can't remember who it was from. Someone mentioned Kanye West too. Hell, his first single "Through the Wire" is a sample of "Through the Fire" by Chaka Khan. The list goes on and on and on of artists sampling artists and making other songs. As long as it's good I am down.

 

[Calderownz]

I don't think it's cheating, I think it's just another form of instrumentation. You're utilizing a portion of another song. Just like you might use one particular instrument for one song and never use it again. You're drawing from it what you can and moving on.

If I were being truthful, I think covers are far worse than sampling. Yet, covers are usually judged on a case-by-case basis. (I love some covers, I'm just saying, if I'm comparing the two.....) Sampling is looked at as stealing. Yet, that doesn't work on a technical or musical level.

USUALLY, you have to pay for the sample. Therefore, it's not technically stealing. And artistically, you're doing something totally different with the sound and making it your own in a sense.

Just like everything else in life, if done well, it's great. If not, then it usually sucks. Doesn't mean the act of sampling sucks. But rather the use of that sample.

 

[Alex]

The thing that rubs me the wrong way about sampling is its just a straight copy/paste of the original material. I wouldn't really find it that big of a deal if an artist/s that wanted to sample something simply recorded the part/s they wanted and then put their own lyrics on top of it, I find that to be a better idea.

 

[Uncle Phatso]

I have to agree with Alex above me. I have no problem with A rapper or anyone paying tribute to a band or a singer by sampiling or doing a cover of a song. I know this is about sampling, but in truth covering a song could be looked at in the same light as sampling.

I am more familiar with covering, but when an artist chooses a sample and makes a few minor changes. It just looks really lazy to me. If you are going to sample, or cover at least try to make it your own.

That's what I like about covers/samples. You can do so much with the song you are trying to make your own. But when it comes down to just taking the song, and cutting the lyrics out to make a beat. That is just lazy.