Is kayfabe damaging wrestling?

[Stevolutionary]

After reading the recent report on Heyman's 5 year plan for TNA having elements that addressed the fact that wrestling (at least compared to times past) has a declining audience and is not seen as "cool", I was thinking - would ditching kayfabe be an answer to this?

My reason for putting this in the WWE section as opposed to TNA is due to WWE seemingly putting the greatest emphasis on kayfabe, with worked interviews the norm and the supposed release of a talented worker in Serena recently due to not maintaining her character in public, and also the reports on Nexus members having to wear their armbands in public too, and also as the WWE has the biggest mainstream exposure, so would potentially benefit the most from ditching kayfabe. TNA at least seems to allow shoot interviews quite regularly from what i've seen, especially from Angle and Foley who are always quite open and candid in interviews about the product, but lack the mainstream awareness to capitalise on this.

Pro-Wrestling uniquely tries to attract two demographics - sports fans and drama fans, yet draws significantly less viewers and buyrates than either top examples of those fields alone, and I think kayfabe is the reason, and is altogether an outdated notion. In terms of sports fans, the "fake" element will always damage wrestling's credibility, and the stubborn attempt to keep concealing the fact actually does more harm than good. To regular sports fans, I believe it shows a degree of disrespect to them to present it as legitimate competition, which acts as a turn off and an embarassment to admit following amongst their peers in other sports.

In terms of drama fans, kayfabe insults their intelligence to distinguish fact from fiction. It puts wrestling in the realm of pantomine to them. Everyone knows it isn't 'real' except children, which makes it a kids show in their eyes and off limits. Sure it helps suspend disbelief, but that isn't really needed. When I see the cast of Lost being interviewed on TV as real human beings, it doesn't make me less drawn into the stories - and even if it did, I could simply avoid TV interviews and such.

I know WWE is PG, but PG and "exclusively for kids" are not synonymous. Plenty of other shows and movies are PG and still attract a sizeable adult audience. To me, it's not the PG, but the "Santa Claus is real" aspect of wrestling that turns people away. My nephew is 8, and was a huge WWE fan until a few months ago, but now is too embarassed to watch it (at 8!!!) not because it's PG (he'll still watch Ben 10 and Shrek for example) but because he's recently understood it isn't real, and is aware only kids think it is. In turn, kayfabe also causes wrestling to be less marketable among adults in terms of things like talk show circuits. If portrayed as an actor, i'm sure top talents would be more welcome on talk shows than by being in character, which limits the topics of conversation and makes the entire bit a corporate exercise. Do you think Leno or Letterman would have the Undertaker on? Would he even go on, knowing the audience would probably snicker at him? No. But i'm sure Mark Calloway would be welcome, and this in turn would pique interest.

I believe kayfabe insults and patronises a modern audeince who has instant access to information online, and fails to address the needs of today's viewers, instead being rooted in a completely anachronistic carnival tradition that has no place in the world of global media. The same could also be said for terminology such as 'mark' and 'work' which in themselves imply conning someone and a direspect towards the fans. I sincerely believe if kayfabe was dropped and talent could talk freely, it would have the effect of greatly widening the awareness and spread of the product, and remove a lot of mental barriers potential fans have to getting into the product.

I mean really. Imagine Keifer Sutherland pretending to be Jack Bauer on a talk show, and seriously insisting 24 was a documentary - would you not be patronised and feel embarassed to admit watching? That's how a massive amount of people who may be curious about the product feel due to kayfabe.

 

[bloewaters]

first off, great thread.

As far as your topic. I completely agree. however I feel like this WILL not happen until Vince steps down. This because, he is from the old guard and has problems with coming to terms with the fact that the world around him is changing. and as he gets older, we see his company going back in time more and more because vince feels its "safe".

I do feel however, the second that HHH gets to take over we may see wrestlers as actors in the main stream and I do believe that this would be a great move for the sport. i mean, think about this.. Could you imagine seeing Cena on ESPN talking to John Coachman about the current nexus storyline AS a story line not in character? how awesome would it be to see say, John Morrison on ET talking about a potential push and things of that nature? it would be amazing.

I mean, soap operas have spoilers, you don't see the guy from smallville pretending to be clark kent in interviews...

My question is. can anyone think of negatives to this idea? because honestly i can't.

 

[hunterXhunter21]

I think it depends on the character. Should Abyss or Taker play their character while in the public? No, it would look stupid. But if it was someone cocky or something like an anti-American character I think they should stay in character in the streets. I think seeing these men acting normal kinda breaks how much you can get into the story lines. When I see actors that have been on a tv show for a long period of time in movies or in the mags at the check out lane it breaks the immersion I have in the show. Same thing with wrestling when I see them out of the ring it breaks that.

As for Nesux wearing armbands all the time. My friend was at the airport sometime after Raw this week and saw Barrett. Here he is armband and all.

 

[blackmetalbuick]

Good thread. I began to express some of the same sentiments in the "Heyman's plan" thread, and also in my praise of the way TNA Reaction is shot and produced.

Heyman is right, wrestling is not perceived as cool. I'm surprised merch sells to anyone aside from kids, because I don't really know too many people in their 20s or 30s who would really wear a wrestling shirt in public. If wrestling is ever going to be revolutionized or torn free from the current state of stagnation, I would say addressing this issue is priority #1.

The problem isn't that the action is fake (or predetermined), but that after the show is over and everyone goes home, we're not supposed to openly discuss and treat it as fake. Yeah, if you hear a wrestler on a radio show or something like that, they still sell the upcoming PPV and stick to their character by talking about what their strategy is to beat their opponent, and promising to walk away with the title. It's just stupid. Like the OP said, if someone from a drama on TV was interviewed and actually talked about the challenges they face from the antagonist in the storyline, it would be laughable.

I would be more than happy to see some big attempts to change all of this. And like I said in the Heyman thread, taking such a big risk might fail. The odds might even be in the favor of failure for the first few tries. But that doesn't mean not to do it. If Heyman did anything right, it was taking a risk, doing something different, sticking to your principles, and succeeding on your own terms. He didn't cater to anyone. He put out a product, and the fans came to him, not the other way around.

I believe TNA Reaction is the first step towards some of these changes. It's not perfect by far, but I enjoy it a whole lot more than I ever have enjoyed watching Impact. Despite the fact that they still maintain their characters, the wrestlers come across more relaxed and more real. Even some of the guys who can't promo that great in the ring come across a lot better on Reaction with just a cameraman talking to them backstage.

We know it's fake, why keep up this charade? We aren't going to stop watching. We already know. We have to keep up this act to keep the younger audience believing? Why? Every other movie or trend that kids get into, the actors still go on talk shows, late night TV, talk about the fictional role they played, etc. Kids aren't the ones going online reading interviews and dirt sheets or other things. They can keep believing it. They have WWE Magazine and whatever else where the articles can still pretend that it's all real.

I'm not saying I have all the answers on how to pull this off and make it a smooth transition. Someone out there with some influence on the business should definitely try though. Much of what Heyman said is right. Sometimes I think he's over-hyped, and there's no guarantee he would get it all figured out either, but someone, anyone, should try to implement some of these changes.

In some ways TNA is more real, and in other ways they are incredibly fake and cheesy. If they would focus their attention in one direction, try to make things more realistic, revolutionize some things about the business, they would at least have a chance.

I've always enjoyed things that break kayfabe the most. I loved watching WWE Confidential when they would film segments with guys training in the gym, or visit them at home. Same thing for TNA Reaction like I've already mentioned. I would love it if wrestling showed more of the guys training, preparing, etc.

If WWE wants to stay in PG-land and believe their own BS and tell wrestlers to stay in character when out in public, fine, go ahead. But someone else should capitalize on this and try something new.


LMAO @ that picture of Barrett. Wow. It's true that they make them do that. The expression on his face says it all. Come on WWE. LOL. Seeing stuff like that just insults my intelligence. They really want us to see these guys at the airport and think wow, Nexus really is hardcore, they even wear their armbands during the day? DUMB.

 

[Stevolutionary]

I do realise that it would damage immersion for some, and I must admit that I routinely avoid making of documentaries and such on film and TV DVD releases as it damages my own investment, but I do realise that i'm in a minority there, as the very fact they're included on every release shows there's a huge demand, and if I want to, I can always very easily avoid them (and I do)

The benefits however, are huge in comparison to that blip, not just for the audience, but for talent.

Having to stay in character must be exhausting, and also demoralising. I really feel for Serena getting fired simply because she wanted a social life. Imagine if you worked in retail, and had to act exactly the same way you do to customers in your free time! You're essentially being owned by the company 24/7, and nobody would blame you for wanting to leave for a different job.

In terms of talent behind the scenes too, it's another barrier. I work in TV, and I know (due to reasons above) nobody worth their salt in a creative capacity would want to work in wrestling. It would be career suicide due to how the product is seen by the wider media world due to kayfabe.

That's the reason people like Vince Russo are still running wrestling outfits despite being widely held for WCW's failure and currently recycling decades old storylines - because there's nobody else of talent willing to step up or cross over from film, literature, or TV, and thus the creative pool is tiny and stagnant - because kayfabe means your contributions are sneered at by the wider world, and the company essentially owns your public persona.

Wrestling isolates itself from the wider media industry, and this isn't just to its commercial detriment, but also cuts itself off from a huge amount of creative talent. To take the Russon analogy further - imagine if one man was responsible for writing 25% of all TV drama for the last 20 years... You really wouldn't blame them for running out of ideas, and could understand why maybe there's barely any new ideas floating around, when there's almost zero fresh blood.

I agree that TNA Reaction really is a great start - here in the UK a number of top rated drama shows have a companion show on straight after every episode (such as "Doctor Who: Confidential" that interviews cast and crew and goes behind the scenes, and they engage the core audience immensely, and nobody complains about loss of immersion. If it does for you, you can simply avoid it!

And Barrett's face is priceless! He'll have just done a punishing show, be looking forward to a crappy long-haul flight, yet he's still on the clock due to that armband... Poor guy!

Long story short - IMO kayfabe turns off audiences, on-screen talent and backroom talent, and has very little in the way of positives apart from maintaining suspension of disbelief, which in the age of the internet, is almost entirely redundant anyway. It's simply an outdated tradition that no longer has a purpose in the modern world, and the first company to ditch it entirely will steal a huge march on the competition in both creative and commercial areas.

 

[DirtyJosé]

My reason for putting this in the WWE section as opposed to TNA is due to WWE seemingly putting the greatest emphasis on kayfabe

That would seem true because TNA currently employs Vince Russo on creative. Russo has long pioneered an attempt to do away with kayfabe, with a spectacular failure being the normal result.

with worked interviews the norm and the supposed release of a talented worker in Serena recently due to not maintaining her character in public, and also the reports on Nexus members having to wear their armbands in public too

Image is everything in pro wrestling, especially for a company like the WWE. Mind you, folk like The Miz and Sheamus are almost always speaking with the press or otherwise being out publicly representing the company in mixed kayfabe and non-kayfabe personalities, and WWE seems to encourage it if anything else.

and also as the WWE has the biggest mainstream exposure, so would potentially benefit the most from ditching kayfabe. TNA at least seems to allow shoot interviews quite regularly from what i've seen, especially from Angle and Foley who are always quite open and candid in interviews about the product, but lack the mainstream awareness to capitalise on this.

Or it's just that when you take away the only reason for people to care about the product in any way, they...well, they have no reason to care about the product. Angle and Foley get pretty damn good coverage as is.

Pro-Wrestling uniquely tries to attract two demographics - sports fans and drama fans, yet draws significantly less viewers and buyrates than either top examples of those fields alone, and I think kayfabe is the reason, and is altogether an outdated notion.

Vince Russo started thinking this way a long while ago. Where is WCW now? I suppose there goes your great idea. Also, your analysis leaves out one critical element: youth. They are a market which bring more revenue than either "sports fans" or "drama fans" combined. And kids like the stories because they aren't just watching to see highly athletic matches.

In terms of sports fans, the "fake" element will always damage wrestling's credibility, and the stubborn attempt to keep concealing the fact actually does more harm than good.

So they should come out each week doing their best to admit that it's all a joke? I mean, again, these are ideas lifted wholesale from the Vince Russo bible, and they are proven failures. Telling fans "we know this is fake", and then expecting them to buy a ppv is madness.

To regular sports fans, I believe it shows a degree of disrespect to them to present it as legitimate competition, which acts as a turn off and an embarassment to admit following amongst their peers in other sports.

Good things sports fans don't matter dick in the end. Real sports fans are never going to see pro wrestling as anything but scripted entertainment, whether they enjoy it or not. If a sports fan cares that much, they'll watch MMA, where there are real fights.

In terms of drama fans, kayfabe insults their intelligence to distinguish fact from fiction. It puts wrestling in the realm of pantomine to them. Everyone knows it isn't 'real' except children, which makes it a kids show in their eyes and off limits. Sure it helps suspend disbelief, but that isn't really needed. When I see the cast of Lost being interviewed on TV as real human beings, it doesn't make me less drawn into the stories - and even if it did, I could simply avoid TV interviews and such.

What's great is that you are so dismissive of "kids", but in the end they matter more. Furthermore, what I find insulting to my intelligence is a company that thinks going great lengths to make backstage heat seem legit for the purposes of storylines that end up dead before they ever resolve is entertainment. What I find insulting is constant back and forth swerving with no explanation and no proper build-up.

I know WWE is PG, but PG and "exclusively for kids" are not synonymous. Plenty of other shows and movies are PG and still attract a sizeable adult audience. To me, it's not the PG, but the "Santa Claus is real" aspect of wrestling that turns people away.

It's kinda always going to be that way, amigo. It's grown men in underwear pretending to be other grown men and compete in scripted matches. If you take away kayfabe, how do you justify watching a fake sport?

My nephew is 8, and was a huge WWE fan until a few months ago, but now is too embarassed to watch it (at 8!!!) not because it's PG (he'll still watch Ben 10 and Shrek for example) but because he's recently understood it isn't real, and is aware only kids think it is.

Your one nephew is not representative of the entire youth market. My younger twin sisters would find him a wuss for liking Ben 10 over WWE. Fact is that this is something Pro Wrestling will always have to deal with.

In turn, kayfabe also causes wrestling to be less marketable among adults in terms of things like talk show circuits. If portrayed as an actor, i'm sure top talents would be more welcome on talk shows than by being in character, which limits the topics of conversation and makes the entire bit a corporate exercise. Do you think Leno or Letterman would have the Undertaker on? Would he even go on, knowing the audience would probably snicker at him? No. But i'm sure Mark Calloway would be welcome, and this in turn would pique interest.

Wrestlers have been on television shows, in and out of character, since back in the day. And you act as if performers are never ever allowed to speak out of character, which is provably wrong. These people aren't working for Bill Watts!

I believe kayfabe insults and patronises a modern audeince who has instant access to information online, and fails to address the needs of today's viewers, instead being rooted in a completely anachronistic carnival tradition that has no place in the world of global media. The same could also be said for terminology such as 'mark' and 'work' which in themselves imply conning someone and a direspect towards the fans. I sincerely believe if kayfabe was dropped and talent could talk freely, it would have the effect of greatly widening the awareness and spread of the product, and remove a lot of mental barriers potential fans have to getting into the product.

Then what the fuck would we be watching? A bunch of grown men argue over who's going to win the scripted fucking match? If you want real sport, go to fucking MMA already. Killing kayfabe dooms pro wrestling.

I mean really. Imagine Keifer Sutherland pretending to be Jack Bauer on a talk show, and seriously insisting 24 was a documentary - would you not be patronised and feel embarassed to admit watching? That's how a massive amount of people who may be curious about the product feel due to kayfabe.

First of all, I'd like to take this chance to tell people to like whatever the hell you like, everyone else be damned. Who cares what others will think of what shows you watch? Is it really that important to you?

Secondly, your comparisons are flawed. To be more accurate, removing kayfabe from modern pro wrestling would be akin to removing the stellar writing and visual effects from Lost; it would just be us watching a dozen or so people on a bad set being terribly uninteresting.

 

[Stevolutionary]

I completel disagree that stripping kayfabe would be like removing the writing from Lost. That's a completely false and nonsensical comparison.

And Vince Russo was never responsible for trying to get rid of kayfabe - what he did was attempt to blur the lines between kayfabe and reality - which if anything is actually worse for gaining the trust and respect of your audience, as all that does is make them feel even further disrespected. People stopped watching WCW not because they were aware it was scripted, but because they thought they were being treated like idiots with constanst swerves.

I respect that maybe kayfabe is the main draw for you, but as someone is obviously a core fan, you're not the kind of person who is representative of the mianstream, and alone, cannot keep the industry from shrinking.

For it to grow and thrive, it needs mainstream acceptance. And kayfabe is the number one barrier to that. It may 'kill' wrestling for you, but it will bring it to life for 10 times as many people as it damages.

I should also point out another fallacy in your reply, in stating the youth market is greater than sports and drama combined.

Firstly, removing kayfabe would do nothing to alienate the kids. They don't trawl dirt sheets or watch Leno, so would remain oblivious until the age they start doing so, and by that point they're old enough to know anyway.

Secondly, advertising, especially in the coveted 18-35 demographic, brings in much, much more than merchandise does, and sports and drama fans fall squarely into those areas, which is why sports and drama fill prime time slots - because they make far and away the most money.

 

[DirtyJosé]

I completel disagree that stripping kayfabe would be like removing the writing from Lost. That's a completely false and nonsensical comparison.

No, you just don't want to admit it. Taking kayfabe from wrestling is taking the promos and the gimmicks and the showmanship. What's left is men in skimpy outfits dancing. You tell me what seems more appealing. Taking the energy and vivacity out of the product is very much like stripped Lost of it's charm. Without it's writing, what is Lost? Nothing.

And Vince Russo was never responsible for trying to get rid of kayfabe - what he did was attempt to blur the lines between kayfabe and reality - which if anything is actually worse for gaining the trust and respect of your audience, as all that does is make them feel even further disrespected. People stopped watching WCW not because they were aware it was scripted, but because they thought they were being treated like idiots with constanst swerves.

It's what you were saying, right? Letting boys in back say whatever they please instead of "worked" promos? Ditching colorful and varied gimmicks in favore of everyone looking like a generic douche bag? That seems like ditching kayfabe to me.

I respect that maybe kayfabe is the main draw for you, but as someone is obviously a core fan, you're not the kind of person who is representative of the mianstream, and alone, cannot keep the industry from shrinking.

And neither can you.

For it to grow and thrive, it needs mainstream acceptance. And kayfabe is the number one barrier to that. It may 'kill' wrestling for you, but it will bring it to life for 10 times as many people as it damages.

What "kills" it for wrestling is that what writers they do hire are fucking useless a lot of the time. 10 times, eh? What orifice did you pull that figure out of? Again, could you please tell me what you think "kayfabe-less" wrestling would look like, because I can't picture it any other way than crap. How is your plan going to sell any PPV's without storyline support?

 

[Stevolutionary]

There's not a huge point debating you as you've clearly got a stick up your ass and are unable to put your point across respectfully, but i'll reply to those last points. (i've no problem with your opinion - just your needless attitude)

Firstly, EVERYONE knows wrestling is scripted, yet still buy the shows. Dropping kayfabe outside the ring would do nothing to change the *still scripted and acted* show in the ring. Why you think this would effect buy rates is beyond me. If anything, by removing some of the stigma of wrestling, it would attract a wider audience and increase buy rates. Or do people fail to buy cinema tickets due to knowing it's fake?

My 8 year old nephew stopped watching because one kid in his school found out it was fake, and told everyone, and now not a single one of his friends watch it anymore. Not because it's fake (they know TV is fake) but because being lied to outside the ring makes them feel patronised, and the last thing a kid wants to feel like is being treated like one - so there's a whole bunch of potential future customers lost because the company wasn't honest to them and they're too embarassed to watch anymore for fear of looking naive. For a kid his age, WWE is as cool as believing in the tooth-fairy. If they knew it was fake to begin with, they'd all still be watching now.

Secondly, the writers are usless because (as I said above) I work in TV and can tell you first hand, no writer worth their salt would work in wrestling because it would be career suicide. And that is due to kayfabe isolating the product from the rest of the writing world and giving it mainstream ridicule, and the fact they remain uncredited due to the nature of kayfabe, meaning they remain invisible for the duration of their contract. Can you name ANYONE who crossed over from TV/film drama to write for wrestling, or graduated from writing wrestling to write TV/film drama? I can't think of anyone who has, or who would/could.

Lastly, the generic meathead douchebag character model of WCW is nothing to do with kayfabe. WCW never ditched kayfabe - they blurred it. Completely different, and IMO worse, as it was the opposite of dropping kayfabe (pandering to the mainstream) as this was about trying to work the core fans, and thus pandering to them, an extremely tiny market. The douchebag character is separate from this and is simply endemic of the 90s - look at the majority of comic book, TV and film action hero/villain characters of that era - exactly the same - http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NinetiesAntiHero

People (children and adults) generally have no issue with wrestling being fake (they're aware all drama is) - they have issue with it constantly insisting it isn't. Drop that, and you remove a massive barrier.

 

[DirtyJosé]

Firstly, EVERYONE knows wrestling is scripted, yet still buy the shows. Dropping kayfabe outside the ring would do nothing to change the *still scripted and acted* show in the ring.

Dude, there really isn't a huge kayfabe curtain outside of production. I mean, Serena got canned for hitting the hooch when they probably asked her not to. You make a big deal about kayfabe up and down, but since this isn't the Bill Watts era, I take it that all you are referring to is what is in the finished product.

Why you think this would effect buy rates is beyond me. If anything, by removing some of the stigma of wrestling, it would attract a wider audience and increase buy rates. Or do people fail to buy cinema tickets due to knowing it's fake?

Wrestling isn't cinema, silly. And yes, if you take the plot out of a movie, most people won't care.

My 8 year old nephew stopped watching because one kid in his school found out it was fake, and told everyone, and now not a single one of his friends watch it anymore. Not because it's fake (they know TV is fake) but because being lied to outside the ring makes them feel patronised, and the last thing a kid wants to feel like is being treated like one - so there's a whole bunch of potential future customers lost because the company wasn't honest to them and they're too embarassed to watch anymore for fear of looking naive. For a kid his age, WWE is as cool as believing in the tooth-fairy. If they knew it was fake to begin with, they'd all still be watching now.

Cool story, amigo. Like, really, that still isn't a tip of the iceberg. There are more kids at each show sporting Cena shirts than there are kids in your nephew's school. This really isn't proving much.

Secondly, the writers are usless because (as I said above) I work in TV

OH NOES!!!

and can tell you first hand, no writer worth their salt would work in wrestling because it would be career suicide. And that is due to kayfabe isolating the product from the rest of the writing world and giving it mainstream ridicule, and the fact they remain uncredited due to the nature of kayfabe, meaning they remain invisible for the duration of their contract. Can you name ANYONE who crossed over from TV/film drama to write for wrestling, or graduated from writing wrestling to write TV/film drama? I can't think of anyone who has, or who would/could.

Can you, again, give an example of what a kayfabe-less product would be? No? Ok then.

Oh, and for your question: Freddie Prinze Jr. Good call on your "Hollywood Insider" information there, Mr. Executive.

Lastly, the generic meathead douchebag character model of WCW is nothing to do with kayfabe. WCW never ditched kayfabe - they blurred it. Completely different, and IMO worse, as it was the opposite of dropping kayfabe (pandering to the mainstream) as this was about trying to work the core fans, and thus pandering to them, an extremely tiny market. The douchebag character is separate from this and is simply endemic of the 90s - look at the majority of comic book, TV and film action hero/villain characters of that era - exactly the same - http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NinetiesAntiHero

Well, how about you finally give us a clue of what your alternative is, because it sounds a hell of a lot like endgame WCW. You were the one who said you wanted to let the boys say whatever they wanted. That's endgame WCW. You said you didn't want kayfabe, that you wanted more real life stuff going on. That's endgame WCW. How about instead of talking about how much better it'd be, you show us.

People (children and adults) generally have no issue with wrestling being fake (they're aware all drama is) - they have issue with it constantly insisting it isn't. Drop that, and you remove a massive barrier.

Good luck with that, champ. How do you plan on getting anyone to give a shit when it's all been acknowledged as fake and pointless? You can't explain that because it's not possible without turning off the majority of the audience. You are only demonstrating how little you grasp the workings of a promotion.

You very clearly are craving something MMA-lite, so why not bother them? Why fuck with wrestling just because you and your little squirt nephew have outgrown it?

 

[Ferbian]

No, kayfabe is what keeps wrestling entertaining. Considering the fact that more or less everybody are friends in some way or another backstage. It would completely screw up the potential of running one of those incredibly awesome storylines where you truly get behind one or the other due to the sheer hatred for the other guy, or the intensity of the storyline.

If you take away kayfabe, you take away a lot of the key elements of wrestling. The things that makes feuds interesting, matches interesting etc. Due to kayfabe being both about the booking of the match, as well as the storylines, everything would be taken away. What else would we have?

No, I would say that kayfabe is more important to wrestling than it is destroying wrestling.

 

[bringitback]

You could not be more wrong. Everything that is not kayfabe is destroying wrestling. Let me correct that: Has already destroyed wrestling. The huge mistake the IWC thinks is that wrestling belongs to them. It does not and never will belong to smarks/smarts. In the past, smarks/smarts were not damaging to wrestling because when a person got to the age that they were not marks anymore, they realised they had grown out of it and moved on.

The only thing that could save wrestling now would be for every wrestlezone, pwinsider, pwtorch etc. to completely shut down and leave wrestling with the marks again, be they kids or those with the ability to suspend reality so they can enjoy their show. As it should always have been.

 

[Wade's Public Transit Bomb]

First of all, I love the Wade Barrett picture.


Ok. No. Kayfabe is what makes pro wrestling.. Pro wrestling.

When you get to the root of it, Vince views his product as a television show and the wrestlers are the actors. Some of them are the protagonists, some of them are the antagonists. Some have larger roles, some are pretty background decorations. There is always a story that reflects the main character(s) personality. And said story always has a conflict, climax and an defined ending. You know wanna know why there's really only one guy on top of the show at a time? Do you watch other shows on TV? For the most part, Married with Children is about Al Bundy and everyone else on the show centers around his character. There are episodes in which Peg antagonizes Al, in others Marcy takes that role. Everyone has their own thoughts on the quality of the storyline, but literary model on how to write a story will always remain the same.

That is what really separates WWE booking from TNA booking. TNA doesn't have a central figure. TNA's storylines aren't linear.


And I really don't see how pro wrestling "attracts" sport(s) fans. It is just a coincidence that a lot of people who watch pro wrestling also watch sports. Pro wrestling is NOT a sport and companies who have tried to portray itself as a sport have failed.

 

[the420something]

Are you serious, all they are doing is taking away one "kayfabe" and making it into another. What reality tv show's do is the same thing. Do you think survivor's not scripted? or that the Kardashians are useful for being anything other than moderately attractive? I mean if you wanna take kayfabe out of the picture, lets take the wrestling out as well. It's not real either. I don't want to see Cody Runnels, Phil Brooks, or John Hennigan. I want to see 'The Dashing' Cody Rhodes, CM Punk, and John Morrison. I think it's the misconception that reality's cool. Reality sucks and that's why we watch TV shows, go to movies, etc.

The difference between Kiefer Sutherland and Mark Calloway is that people like Kiefer Sutherland they know him as compared to Bauer. No one gives a fuck about Calloway,but they can go with the Undertaker. Undertaker's the shit.

And your the 8 year old argument is a moot point. He's 8. You don't have a sense of self at 8. He probably's still getting used to multiplication and cursive (I dunno that's where I was at that age, I wouldn't be surprised if he was learning Flash and Photoshop).

If you can like Rock Stars, Rappers, and Comedians, I'm sure you can suspend disbelief and like a Pro-Wrestler or 2.

 

[JackGallow]

Get rid of Kayfabe, if anything it should be reinstilled.

Jim Cornette did a shoot interview called guest booker, and the whole point of the interview was how he would have booked the invasion angle and his basic concept was brilliant because nobody would have known whether it was part of the show or not.

the basic idea Jim had was this Vince would come out say he bought WCW and indirectly say that he has the contracts of every single top star in WCW history and that they are basically going to do jobs to the WWE talent make them look good and get the hell out of his company that hes going to use WCW for everything its worth.

Then the WCW talent comes out maybe through the auidience and Flair as a mouth piece for everybody says something along the lines of yeah your right you own our contracts and we do have to do the jobs you want us to until our contract expires... but who said were gonna go down without a fight?

This would lead to the best way to reinstill kayfabe, have guys SHOOT in the ring. He gave the example of regal and benoit at the time, 2 guys who are legit tough men, give them a bonus money wise to go out there and at some point start REALLY shoot fighting. Then branch it out and have it happen more and more competitors to where it is literally a war between WCW and WWF/E talent.

Im sorry but If I saw two wrestlers start really shooting on each other, no punches pulled even I would question whether its real or fake and I wouldnt feel my intelligence was insulted, I would be interested.

This all leads to how I WISH Kayfabe would be reinstillled now although I know it will never happen... I wish that Vince would go to all the major dirt sheet sites, including wrestlezone and pay them to start putting out fake news stories about heat between two of the boys, then on television have the wrestlers start shooting.

Think about What that would do, you go on Wrestlezones main site and read that Orton and Barrett got in a fight backstage over whatever, then your watching raw or a ppv and all the sudden Orton starts cursing Barrett out and throws a legit right hand and they start brawling... Wouldnt you say WTF is this real? I know I would and thats why I wish Kayfabe was reinstilled that way... The great part about it is also if people DID find out that all the major dirt sheet sites were now owned by Vince, we would be forced to now go back to the time before the internet and acutally have to wait and see what happens on tv, no more spoilers and right there wrestling could get more interesting again.

So in closing Kayfabe should be reinstilled because of the buzz it would generate, If people are questioning whether whats going on in the show is just part of the show, or if its completely legit, it would give more people a reason to watch agian and make wrestling interesting.

 

[Honkey_Kong]

I'd like to start off by giving a non-wrestling kayfabe story.

Remember when Taledega Nights came out in the theaters? They kicked it off by having Will Ferrel go on Larry King completely in character as Ricky Bobby. He gave probably one of the best interviews in his career. Because let's face it, we don't give a flying fuck about Will Ferrel the man, we care about the characters he plays in his movies.

Wrestling is the same thing. We don't care about the wrestlers as people, we care about the characters they play. When wrestlers go out of character, they effectively murder the character they play.

And if they completely abandon kayfabe, here is what Orton appearing on Leno might look like:

Leno: So Randy, you have a big match coming up at Wrestlemania this Sunday. You're facing Cena to determine who is the undisputed champion.

Orton: Yeah, but who cares? It's fake anyways.


By the way, even during the attitude era, we all knew wrestling was scripted and we watched anyways. They didn't have to abandon kayfabe to keep us interested. And they still don't.

 

[Optimist Prime]

Kayfabe is what made professional wrestling what it is today. Kayfabe is what provides "personality" to certain wrestlers who don't have any. Kayfabe is part of the entertainment.

I don't know what ever happened to professional wrestling...but somewhere down the line everybody just thought it would be better if they made it a figure skating competition with just in-ring ability and stripped literally every other aspect, of what made it special, away.

If anything, they need MORE kayfabe. Kayfabe helps separate Professional Wrestling from MMA, Boxing, etc. As everything is scripted anyway. There should be an element of fantasy and acting in there as well.

Having the professional wrestlers act the same way boxers and MMA fighters do...while performing in an industry that doesn't have a "real" outcome and is scripted is essentially setting yourself up for company suicide. It's a terrible marketing strategy. The whole reason professional wrestling became so popular in the first place was because it represented a fantasy world of competition. It took people outside of their own realities and brought them into another world where they could forget about their own if only for a moment. This element of the industry has since been taken away...and I strongly feel that that is a large factor in why professional wrestling has taken a blow. Not to mention the lack of competition, the total destruction of the weight classes which essentially destroyed the values of the IC, US, TV, and Cruiserweight titles, among other things.

Kayfabe certainly does not need to go...if anything they need more of it.

 

[shattered dreams]

I think what those trashing the idea do not want to recognize is that when it is strictly kayfabe prowrestling has a quickly declining audience. Why exactly? IMO it is because they are caught in-between entertainment and "real." In strict kayfabe the fights cannot live up to the real things like UFC. In an entertainment sense it is clear that the show is not going to be better than soap opera quality, which gets you nowhere with so many options available today to chose from as far as pure entertainment goes. The one place you can go that is modern is sure to be unpopular with the traditionalists. That is pseudo-reality tv with a fair amount of cross promotions.

The ironic thing about the "fake" label prowrestling gets is that it is actually more real than most things on tv. Sure you do not want to break kayfabe all the way down but I think Undertaker Kane flaming out so fast showed the issue best. People were watching for the history between the characters but the dependence on outdated kayfabe powers killed it. The audience needs to be able to relate to the characters. What happens needs to be believable. The audience that remains loyal to prowrestling is fascinated by what happens behind the scenes and what these guys are really like. The answer is not to destroy kayfabe or embrace it further, the answer is both. How you do that is the blurring into one that everyone claims is so bad. Show people that wrestling is more real than most entertainment and you might have something. Trying to pretend it is as real actual sports is a recipe for failure.

 

[The Crock]

No, not at all. Kayfabe is what keeps wrestling as entertaining as ever. Without kayfabe wrestling just wouldn't be the same. Kayfabe IS wrestling. Kayfabe is the storylines, the vignettes, the interviews, the way matches go... That is the entire point of wrestling. If kayfabe was damaging to wrestling that would be backwards as hell. The entire life blood of wrestling cannot be damaging to the entire product. Without kayfabe, and all those elements of wrestling, it would just be fake fighting, OBVIOUSLY fake fighting.

 

[Jamana 17]

LMAO @ that picture of Barrett. Wow. It's true that they make them do that. The expression on his face says it all. Come on WWE. LOL. Seeing stuff like that just insults my intelligence. They really want us to see these guys at the airport and think wow, Nexus really is hardcore, they even wear their armbands during the day? DUMB.

About the expressio on the face, he could be bored.. come on he's at the airport for god's sake.

as for kayfabe, if you've watched the "history of the whc" dvd ( available on wweshop.com) you'll know that b4 wrestling wasnt kayfabe but then they changed it because "it's not worth risking your career/life in every performance. they can make it without kayfabe, but the acual fighting should be kept fake. otherwise it would be as boring as the olympic wrestling

 

[shaunseven]

someone may have already beat me to the punch on this, but...

maybe the drama and the character portraying is just as important to many of those who chose this line of work. wade barrett should be happier than a pig in shit that he has a steady deal just to wear that armband in public...

even though this wasn't the best reply i could've contributed, i really liked this one. best in a while!

 

[Optimist Prime]

"The Million Dollar Man" Ted Dibiase, back in the day, was literally given extra money from the WWF to make his wrestling persona look as though it were real. He would fly first class everywhere he went, he would buy expensive champaign and eat at fancy restaurants. I personally think that made things that much cooler if and when you saw him...and I certainly don't think he was complaining about it haha

 

[extremelycharles]

well i don't know who watched IMPACT last night, but angle and jarret's segment was pretty authentic and i enjoyed it. especially when tazz had to step in it made it seem very realistic. so getting rid of kayfabe may work. what did you guys think of that segment?

 

[vampireblade]

I like kayfabe and i believe that it is not ruining wrestling why? because 1st and foremost kayfabe or not we tune in every monday night for two hours at which point we get involved in the show and suspend disbelief for those two brief hours and get involved in the story lines like they are reality and you know what i really dont care what anyone thinks of me for watching it kayfabe is what keeps us watching. we dont watch because we want to see mike mizanin the man we watch to see The Miz we dont watch to see stuart bennett we watch to see Wade Barrett not to see john cena the man but john cena the wrestler do you guys see what im getting at here? we watch wrestling because of kayfabe and to get rid of that is just crazy if i wanted to see guys without personalities in underwear beat the shit out of each other id watch the ufc

 

[Anaxamander]

My question would be, how far would you want to go with getting rid of kayfabe? Let's say Randy Orton and John Cena have a grueling, brutal match that leaves both men on the brink of death. As soon as the show is "over," would you anti-kayfabe guys want them to bounce up smiling, slap each other on the back, and say, "Good match, pal!"

In my opinion, if you would have a problem with the above scenario, you can't really say you want to get rid of kayfabe.