Is JoMo lucky to have a job?

[Coco]

There was a time in 2007 when former Intercontinental Champion and guy with all the potential in the world Johnny Nitro was on the outs. He'd fallen off the radar in the midcard scene on Monday Night Raw while the Jeff Hardys, Umagas, and Santinos stepped up and filled the spot he once had. That's right, Guy From The Crowd and Green Wrestler Santino Marella was being pushed over the solid Johnny Nitro. Now I'm not saying Nitro screamed for a main event push back then, but he was certainly better than Santino Marella. So, what was Morrison doing at that point in time? He was teaming with Kenny Dykstra. Yeah, that guy. Then came the draft to ECW, which didn't exactly spell success. It was a sign that creative had nothing better for him. It was make or break on a card that would be ruled by Chris Benoit, CM Punk, Monty Brown, and Elijah Burke. The situation looked bleak.

What happened? Morrison became a star as a result of Benoit's double-murder/suicide, Monty Brown going MIA, and Elijah Burke falling out of his good standing with the office (after once being called "the future of ECW" by Vince McMahon). The brand got dumped on his and Punk's shoulders. And while it was always obvious that Punk was going places eventually, the mistakes and bad times of others may have saved Johnny Nitro from getting future endeavored.

Where would Johnny Nitro be today if Chris Benoit hadn't killed his family and himself, Monty Brown had stayed on ECW, and Elijah Burke hadn't fallen out of the good graces of management?

 

[Blade]

That's a bit harsh, I think WWE always had faith in Morrisson and always planned for him to do well, even if it didn't seem like it.

Look at it this way, after Benoit no showed, the match was left with Punk vs Morrisson, with Punk being the one who was originally supposed to be the match and Morrisson as the one to replace Benoit. Now, you'd think if the planned winner of the match, Benoit, no showed, they'd put the title on Punk, the other original member of the match. But no, they put it on Morrisson. Which has to show that 1) they did have faith in Morrisson and 2) they might have been planning for him to become ECW champion anyway.

I don't think the Benoit thing saved his job, it just made is career advance a few months earlier than was planned. I think if Benoit had won the title, he'd have been ECW champion 6-8 months later. In fact, if anything I think it's The Miz who wouldn't have a job. If they had kept Morrisson in the title picture longer than he eventually did, it would've mean no Miz/Morrisson tag team and The Miz might have been the one to get released.

 

[Deexter Jorgan]

There was a time in 2007 when former Intercontinental Champion and guy with all the potential in the world Johnny Nitro was on the outs. He'd fallen off the radar in the midcard scene on Monday Night Raw while the Jeff Hardys, Umagas, and Santinos stepped up and filled the spot he once had. That's right, Guy From The Crowd and Green Wrestler Santino Marella was being pushed over the solid Johnny Nitro. Now I'm not saying Nitro screamed for a main event push back then, but he was certainly better than Santino Marella. So, what was Morrison doing at that point in time? He was teaming with Kenny Dykstra. Yeah, that guy. Then came the draft to ECW, which didn't exactly spell success. It was a sign that creative had nothing better for him. It was make or break on a card that would be ruled by Chris Benoit, CM Punk, Monty Brown, and Elijah Burke. The situation looked bleak.

What happened? Morrison became a star as a result of Benoit's double-murder/suicide, Monty Brown going MIA, and Elijah Burke falling out of his good standing with the office (after once being called "the future of ECW" by Vince McMahon). The brand got dumped on his and Punk's shoulders. And while it was always obvious that Punk was going places eventually, the mistakes and bad times of others may have saved Johnny Nitro from getting future endeavored.

Where would Johnny Nitro be today if Chris Benoit hadn't killed his family and himself, Monty Brown had stayed on ECW, and Elijah Burke hadn't fallen out of the good graces of management?

The main issue with Jon Morrison is the fact that he has had more chances then any wrestler in the business, think abou tit, Morrison's first chance was with Eric Bischoff where he had a semi successful feud with the likes of shawn michaels and many others on the Raw roster before being fired and sent back into developmental (which was a good idea IMO), Morison then came back with the successful tag team run with MNM and was called the standout of the team with Mercury, he had a good run on Raw with the IC title before being brushed to the side for more favorable prospects.

At this time the thing that kept him his job was probably his look, and his background in the tough enough competition (which aparently was Raw writer Brian Gerwitz's idea), with all that said and done Morisson would have a good career in the WWE even though it still wasnt eventful.

If Chris Benoit and Marcus Corvon would have stayed in the WWE i dont think that Morrison would have been ECW champion and owuld have teard the house down with Punk, I do think however he would have been thrusted down to the lower card feuding with the likes of Tommy Dreamer and such, but once the signature pharmacy scandal happened i would have seen Benoit and Morrison being suspended in favour for a corvon - Punk feud, Benoit would have eventually been braught back but Morrison may probably have been sent down to developmental and eventually released.

All In All Morrison would probably have been released eventually but still be given a huge chance before that happens due to the fact that he is the only spark left in the WWE tough enough project.

 

[Coco]

In response to Blade:

Oh, I definately agree that Miz would have been gone. He was a comedy jobber and would have had no business being taken seriously against the top guys. Even now, ring-work wise, he has no business being involved with the top guys. He's lucky he's the most annoying motherfucker on Earth and can thus draw heat after his career defining tag team, otherwise he'd still be useless.

I always though that Nitro was going to be that guy who dropped the belt back to Benoit after a two day reign and become a nothing champion, thus not making the real future prospect(Punk)'s first reign out to be a joke ruined by a dead crowd that wanted Benoit. If the tragedy that weekend was not a tragedy and really turned out to be Benoit rushing home to tend to his sick family like he told people, do we think Nitro would have reigned for months on end and then be repackaged? I don't. I think he would have been thrown to the side of the road and we would have gotten Benoit-Punk for a few months with Nitro maybe feuding with Tommy Dreamer for a little while before an eventual drug suspension where a guy as low on the ladder as him would be made an example of and given harsh booking afterwards.

I like Morrison bunches, but I could see this guy in TNA or taking indy bookings if the tragic pieces hadn't fallen in place.

The main issue with Jon Morrison is the fact that he has had more chances then any wrestler in the business, think abou tit, Morrison's first chance was with Eric Bischoff where he had a semi successful feud with the likes of shawn michaels and many others on the Raw roster before being fired and sent back into developmental (which was a good idea IMO), Morison then came back with the successful tag team run with MNM and was called the standout of the team with Mercury, he had a good run on Raw with the IC title before being brushed to the side for more favorable prospects.

At this time the thing that kept him his job was probably his look, and his background in the tough enough competition (which aparently was Raw writer Brian Gerwitz's idea), with all that said and done Morisson would have a good career in the WWE even though it still wasnt eventful.

If Chris Benoit and Marcus Corvon would have stayed in the WWE i dont think that Morrison would have been ECW champion and owuld have teard the house down with Punk, I do think however he would have been thrusted down to the lower card feuding with the likes of Tommy Dreamer and such, but once the signature pharmacy scandal happened i would have seen Benoit and Morrison being suspended in favour for a corvon - Punk feud, Benoit would have eventually been braught back but Morrison may probably have been sent down to developmental and eventually released.

All In All Morrison would probably have been released eventually but still be given a huge chance before that happens due to the fact that he is the only spark left in the WWE tough enough project.

I agree with all of this, pretty much. If Pharmacy-gate happened with Benoit, Cor Von, and Punk taking up top billing on ECW, that would have been the final straw. Looking back at the names named in the situation, it was the guys who were doing little or were at the very bottom of the card (as things likely would have played out for Nitro) who didn't get many breaks from the company after that. He either would have been in Haas and Shane Helms territory or he'd be gone right now. And looking at the way Morrison stepped on JBL's toes at one point, if he was at the bottom of the card and pissing off any vets then he'd be a goner in one of the usual cost cutting initiatives.

Morrison is very lucky to be where he is right now.

 

[Coco]

*Delete* Double-post.

 

[Blade]

In response to Blade:

Oh, I definately agree that Miz would have been gone. He was a comedy jobber and would have had no business being taken seriously against the top guys. Even now, ring-work wise, he has no business being involved with the top guys. He's lucky he's the most annoying motherfucker on Earth and can thus draw heat after his career defining tag team, otherwise he'd still be useless.

I always though that Nitro was going to be that guy who dropped the belt back to Benoit after a two day reign and become a nothing champion, thus not making the real future prospect(Punk)'s first reign out to be a joke ruined by a dead crowd that wanted Benoit. If the tragedy that weekend was not a tragedy and really turned out to be Benoit rushing home to tend to his sick family like he told people, do we think Nitro would have reigned for months on end and then be repackaged? I don't. I think he would have been thrown to the side of the road and we would have gotten Benoit-Punk for a few months with Nitro maybe feuding with Tommy Dreamer for a little while before an eventual drug suspension where a guy as low on the ladder as him would be made an example of and given harsh booking afterwards.

Maybe, but Benoit was never gonna stay on ECW. He was a big name, he would've ended up on Raw or SD (most likely SD) from next year's draft, leaving Punk as a champion needing some challengers, which is where Morrisson would step in.
I think if the tragedy hadn't happened, but Benoit had still no showed, Morrisson would at least have kept it till the next PPV. I know that Morrison's reign was too late for the 2005-push-new-guys thing, but I think they would've given him a try at least until the next PPV. And then Benoit would've left that following April for SD, Punk would be on top and Morrison would challenge him.
Morrison and Punk pretty much made eachother from the feud they had. It would've eventually ended up with Punk vs Morrison with or without Benoit in my opinion, the only difference being Punk would've been at a higher level from his matches with Benoit, meaning he would've been able to bring Morrison to a higher level too, no?

 

[Coco]

That's an interesting point. But by the time Benoit would have left in 2008, Punk was also ready to leave in reality. And in reality, he didn't have the Benoit feud to help get him over, so he would have been even more ready to leave with Benoit come 2008 than he was without it. So lets say the 2008 draft comes up and both Punk and Benoit leave without Nitro ever getting to feud with Punk... At that point he will have already seen guys like Chavo, Kane, and Shelton jump to the brand and end up above him on the card (somehow) not to mention that Kofi Kingston would have been a hotter prospect than Nitro would have been had things gone sour (or not... depending on your outlook). Following the draft, Matt Hardy, Finlay, and Mark Henry were the new top dogs with Swagger and Bourne as the new hot prospects. If Morrison hadn't caught his break when he did as a result of three other guys not making out to well, history can be drawn all the way to the present with Nitro coasting at the bottom of the card or worse.

I'm not convinced Morrison would have made it no matter what. IMO, he's a product of the tragedy of others.

 

[Blade]

But Punk wouldn't have left if Benoit had been there. By the time of that draft, Punk would be a star, and Benoit, of course, would be the already established star. They wouldn't have made the 2 biggest stars of ECW leave.
Look at what happened in reality, when the draft came around, Morrison and Punk were the 2 biggest stars on ECW and the bigger star, Punk, left. Morrison stayed on ECW to keep the show going, having his tag team with Miz, while new stars were rising on ECW.

So if Benoit was still alive and had still made Punk, only Benoit would've left because WWE would only make ECW lose 1 of it's 2 biggset stars. Therefore the Punk/Morrison feud still would've happened and Morrisson would've become a star, just later.

 

[Coco]

Nah, I wouldn't say Morrison was the second biggest star on the brand at the time Punk was drafted. Kane was the champion, and in 2008 Raw took both the MITB holder CM Punk and ECW Champion Kane. The idea that ECW wouldn't lose it's two biggest stars isn't accurate because ECW is an endless revolving door. Punk and Kane left, and in came Mark Henry, Matt Hardy, and Finlay. Not to mention that in 2007, RVD left and the WWE decided to take the next (and THE) biggest ECW star Bobby Lashley away from the brand in exchange for Benoit. I think there is no limit to the names WWE will take from ECW if they have a use for them elsewhere. So to say WWE would never take Punk and Benoit away from the brand at the same time might be a bit much.

It's all revisionist history though, so nobody will ever know who's right.

 

[Blade]

You talk about Kane leaving ECW as one of the two biggest stars who left ECW. But I don't see Kane as an ECW star. He came in randomly, had a shit feud and they threw the belt on him as a little reward. He would've played the same role with Benoit still there. Kane probably still would've come in, done whatever with Big Daddy V, then left with Benoit, leaving Punk and Morrison to do their thing. You can't consider Kane as a variable in this equation. And by the time Kane was ECW champ, Punk and Morrison were finished, so Kane doesn't matter in this debate. Punk/Morrison still would've happened.

And also, yes, RVD and Lashley left when Benoit came into ECW. But I only consider that as 1 star leaving since ECW gained Benoit. The 2008 ECW draft didn't get anyone even near as big as Benoit.

 

[Coco]

I think Kane is very important to this equation. Kane came in to play the role Benoit would have been playing for months as a vet to put guys over. Kane/Punk leaving is equal to Benoit/Punk leaving, IMO. Assuming Benoit stayed, the main event going into the fall all the way to the end of the year would have been made up of Benoit, Punk, Brown, Burke, and Big Daddy V. Then Chavo would have come at the begining of 2008 like he did, adding him to the main event scene. That's plenty of heels taking up space, making little room for Morrison.

I don't think Kane would have come in if Benoit had been around as Kane was a replacement when Punk as the only main event ready face wasn't enough. The result would have been the same for Morrison in my estimation, though.

 

[Deexter Jorgan]

I think Kane is very important to this equation. Kane came in to play the role Benoit would have been playing for months as a vet to put guys over. Kane/Punk leaving is equal to Benoit/Punk leaving, IMO. Assuming Benoit stayed, the main event going into the fall all the way to the end of the year would have been made up of Benoit, Punk, Brown, Burke, and Big Daddy V. Then Chavo would have come at the begining of 2008 like he did, adding him to the main event scene. That's plenty of heels taking up space, making little room for Morrison.

I don't think Kane would have come in if Benoit had been around as Kane was a replacement when Punk as the only main event ready face wasn't enough. The result would have been the same for Morrison in my estimation, though.

I dont think Benoit would have left ECW, the fact is i think he will be there for life due to the fact that he would have trained the wrestlers on the roster and actually gave them the rub that they deserve, Benoit would not have been moved to another roster because Raw and Smackdown would probably lower him to midcard or lower.

 

[Blade]

I think Kane is very important to this equation. Kane came in to play the role Benoit would have been playing for months as a vet to put guys over. Kane/Punk leaving is equal to Benoit/Punk leaving, IMO. Assuming Benoit stayed, the main event going into the fall all the way to the end of the year would have been made up of Benoit, Punk, Brown, Burke, and Big Daddy V. Then Chavo would have come at the begining of 2008 like he did, adding him to the main event scene. That's plenty of heels taking up space, making little room for Morrison.

I don't think Kane would have come in if Benoit had been around as Kane was a replacement when Punk as the only main event ready face wasn't enough. The result would have been the same for Morrison in my estimation, though.

You've gotta be kidding me. Benoit had nothing to do with Kane's involvment on ECW. Are you saying the WWE thought Kane provdided adequate cover for Benoit? Are you saying Benoit was going to be put into a programme with Big Daddy V?
Come on, I thought you were more intelligent than that.

They brought Kane in as Punk's partner and for the Big Daddy V feud as an excuse to put him on ECW, so he could take the title from Chavo as a kind of 'thank you'. Let's go back to the reality/hypothetical comparison. If Kane had been brought in as a replacement for Benoit, surely he would've won the title pretty soon after showing up? But no, Kane won the title at Wrestlemania, around the time when Benoit would've been leaving ECW. This proves that Kane was not a variable. He was just meant to come in to ECW, stay there for a while not really doing much, then win the ECW title, Benoit or no Benoit.

Which, in effect, means Morrison was not affected by Kane, and would be where he is today with or without Benoit's death.

 

[Coco]

You've gotta be kidding me. Benoit had nothing to do with Kane's involvment on ECW. Are you saying the WWE thought Kane provdided adequate cover for Benoit? Are you saying Benoit was going to be put into a programme with Big Daddy V?
Come on, I thought you were more intelligent than that.

Why wouldn't Benoit have feuded with BDV? In the fall he was being pushed as a top heel, so Benoit-V had to happen eventually.

They brought Kane in as Punk's partner and for the Big Daddy V feud as an excuse to put him on ECW,

Kane was coming there every week as there was no star power faces on the brand except for Punk. Benoit and Punk likely would have tagged had Benoit remained alive. You think if Benoit and Punk were both holding down the fort that Kane would have sniffed ECW? Not a chance. There was no need for a third face at that level.

so he could take the title from Chavo as a kind of 'thank you'.

The reality of the situation is that "thank you" went down with Punk in MITB, Benoit dead in the ground, and Kane with nothing to do. If Benoit wasn't dead, however, Kane would likely not have been given a spot on Mania as ECW wouldn't need him. I could see Punk still in MITB and the ECW title being decided with Benoit likely defending against Chavo or the same with Benoit and Punk switching spots.

Let's go back to the reality/hypothetical comparison. If Kane had been brought in as a replacement for Benoit, surely he would've won the title pretty soon after showing up? But no, Kane won the title at Wrestlemania, around the time when Benoit would've been leaving ECW. This proves that Kane was not a variable. He was just meant to come in to ECW, stay there for a while not really doing much, then win the ECW title, Benoit or no Benoit.

Kane likely wasn't seen as the strong championship contender Punk or Benoit were. But by the time Mania came around, there really were no options for the title match except Kane. Kane being a replacement for the void Benoit left doesn't mean he needed to be contending for the belt through the fall. The show just needed someone to carry a little weight as a face. It was either bring in Kane to help fill the void or leave the #2 face spot to Tommy Dreamer and Balls Mahoney.

Which, in effect, means Morrison was not affected by Kane, and would be where he is today with or without Benoit's death.

I still don't see it. Through the summer you have Benoit defending the belt against Punk and various established ECW wrestlers like Burke, Dreamer, or Monty. By the time the fall comes, Punk is champion. That equals rematches with Benoit, and matches with V, Burke, and Monty. By the time 2008 rolled around, your top guys are Punk, Benoit, and Chavo.

I can't imagine Morrison getting a break considering the other people they intended to push.

I dont think Benoit would have left ECW, the fact is i think he will be there for life due to the fact that he would have trained the wrestlers on the roster and actually gave them the rub that they deserve, Benoit would not have been moved to another roster because Raw and Smackdown would probably lower him to midcard or lower.

I dunno. I see him as a guy only meant to put in a small run there, ala Matt Hardy, Lashley, or Kane. Finlay you would have a case for, but Benoit was higher on the ladder than Finlay.

 

[Blade]

Why wouldn't Benoit have feuded with BDV? In the fall he was being pushed as a top heel, so Benoit-V had to happen eventually.

Because V was never meant to be taken seriously as a contender. V didn't feud with any ECW champion while he was on the show in that space of time. He feuded with Kane before Kane was champion. He had one match with Punk for the title. And that match with Punk was one of Punk's second title defense. One would assume that on Punk's second title defence, he'd still be feuding with Benoit since Benoit would be getting a rematch or two to try and get his title back. Even if Benoit had only gotten 1 title shot, Punk still probably wouldn't have faced V since in reality Punk's first defense was against Burke. Which means that if Benoit had gotten the first title shot, Elijah would've gotten the second, then the 3rd against probably Benoit again since it was Cyber Sunday etc etc. If they had wanted V to look like a contender, they would've given him the first title shot rather than Burke.
This should show that V was never really meant to be a contender. So if Benoit had gone on to feud with V, it would've most likely been a non title feud, which would've left a gap in the title picture for Morrison, once again helping Punk make Morisson.

Kane was coming there every week as there was no star power faces on the brand except for Punk. Benoit and Punk likely would have tagged had Benoit remained alive. You think if Benoit and Punk were both holding down the fort that Kane would have sniffed ECW? Not a chance. There was no need for a third face at that level.

Well then perhaps Kane would've come in as a heel and had the crap feud with Dreamer or someone instead of V. If they had wanted Kane as the new star power from Benoit's death till the draft, why did they have him feuding with V for most of that time? That was hardly like to bring in the ratings, Kane ain't that good.

The reality of the situation is that "thank you" went down with Punk in MITB, Benoit dead in the ground, and Kane with nothing to do. If Benoit wasn't dead, however, Kane would likely not have been given a spot on Mania as ECW wouldn't need him. I could see Punk still in MITB and the ECW title being decided with Benoit likely defending against Chavo or the same with Benoit and Punk switching spots.

But Kane did have something to do, namely feuding with V so he could take the title once the Benoit/Punk thing was over. I think Benoit would've left for SD/Raw, and Punk would've stayed to feud with Kane for a while before Kane left. After Kane left Punk would've stayed as the dominant force on ECW. Punk wouldn't have won MitB till next year. Jeff Hardy was supposed to win MitB, got suspended, went to Punk instead.
In the hypothetical situation, they only would've taken 1 of their big stars away from ECW, that being Benoit, leaving Punk to go feud with Morrison after he'd taken the title back from Kane. With Benoit gone, they would've still needed Punk on ECW and would've put MitB on someone else.
In reality, Punk won MitB which was fine cause they had Morrison on ECW to be the star power along with whoever was coming in the draft.
In both situations it's logical that Kane would've been doing the exact same thing, only he would've dropped the title back to Punk rather than Henry.

Kane likely wasn't seen as the strong championship contender Punk or Benoit were. But by the time Mania came around, there really were no options for the title match except Kane. Kane being a replacement for the void Benoit left doesn't mean he needed to be contending for the belt through the fall. The show just needed someone to carry a little weight as a face. It was either bring in Kane to help fill the void or leave the #2 face spot to Tommy Dreamer and Balls Mahoney.

But ECW was so small that if you weren't in contention for the ECW title, you weren't really doing anything. Which is true in Kane's case cause he was having a pathetic little feud with V, so he wasn't put into ECW to replace Benoit.

I still don't see it. Through the summer you have Benoit defending the belt against Punk and various established ECW wrestlers like Burke, Dreamer, or Monty. By the time the fall comes, Punk is champion. That equals rematches with Benoit, and matches with V, Burke, and Monty. By the time 2008 rolled around, your top guys are Punk, Benoit, and Chavo.

In my hypothetical situation, you have Benoit vs Punk all summer and most of Autumn, then Punk facing other talent while Benoit doing something else, possibly going off to start a feud with a guy on another show so he'd have something lined up for him when he gets drafted, Chavo wins the title at NWO, Kane takes it at WM but Punk doesn't win MitB that year due to them still needing him on ECW for the next 12 months, the draft comes around, Benoit and Kane leave, Punk stays on ECW as the top guy, feuds with Morrison and makes him.


Can we stop now? Before this gets too confusing?

 

[Coco]

Haha. I'm not confused yet.

The notion that BDV wasn't meant to be taken seriously as a contender is absurd. In the summer (pre-SummerSlam), when Punk was at the peak of his contender status, BDV ran through Punk on an episode of ECW. He feuded with Undertaker down the road and even ended up in the SD elimination chamber for no good reason. He was being groomed as a main event heel. To say anything else isn't giving his booking credit, no matter how much he sucked.

I don't see how one is doing nothing on ECW is they're not fighting for the belt. Quite often, they're smart enough to at least have a second level feud going on. Sometimes this second level feud even makes it to PPV (see Finlay vs. Mark Henry). Now with Tommy and Balls as the second face of the show, it's not possible to have that second feud taken seriously. Benoit left an opening and no matter how much you try to dispute it, Kane was a replacement when Punk on his own wasn't enough. Just because he didn't get the title right away, does not mean he wasn't helping to fill that gab. Putting Kane vs. BDV on instead of Tommy vs. BDV was smart as nobody gets over properly on beating Tommy Dreamer. But if Benoit was there to put BDV over, Kane wouldn't have been needed.

Then again, if Benoit had been told he needed to put BDV over, he probably would have chosen death right then and there.

After the 2008 draft, Morrison was not star power. Not even close. He was pushed down the ladder and was tag champion. Hardly a big deal. Matt Hardy was the replacement for Punk and Kane (which would have been Benoit) with Finlay as a second stringer and Mark Henry well above Morrison. By the time that was all happening, new guys were coming in as well who were going to be pushed harder than a Morrison who never got a break.

 

[Blade]

I'm slowly getting closer to giving up, but I'm not done yet damnit!!

To say he was groomed as a main event heel is much more absurd. He feuded with the Undertaker because they needed a reason to put him into the Chamber match. He was put in the Chamber match because between the 2 Chamber matches, the 2 world title matches, the ECW title match and Mr. Kennedy being in the Flair match, he was all that was left. By my count there were 10 heels more popular than him and being pushed more than him at the time. Being the 11th top heel isn't exactly main event level.

And yes they have second level feuds, but those might as well be nothing. Did you actually care about Finlay vs Henry? And don't say yes for the sake of arguement.
As I've previously said, Kane might have come in as a heel if Benoit had been there and feuded with Dreamer. I didn't mean we'd see a V/Dreamer feud.

Morrisson wasn't a big WWE star, but he was a big ECW star. With the Miz he got more tv time than pretty much anyone else on ECW between the matches and the promos. But yes, I do agree that Hardy was sent in to replace Punk, but not Kane. As I've already said, Kane was just a temp ECW guy, he wasn't replacing anyone and therefore didn't need to be replaced. And saying Finlay and Henry were above Morrison at that time is ludicrous (yeah, i can use obscure words that essentially mean 'silly' too ). Listen to the reactions he was getting mid 2008. That was when Henry was getting no reaction and when Finlay was only getting a reaction cause of Hornswoggle.

 

[Coco]

To say he was groomed as a main event heel is much more absurd. He feuded with the Undertaker because they needed a reason to put him into the Chamber match. He was put in the Chamber match because between the 2 Chamber matches, the 2 world title matches, the ECW title match and Mr. Kennedy being in the Flair match, he was all that was left. By my count there were 10 heels more popular than him and being pushed more than him at the time. Being the 11th top heel isn't exactly main event level.

This is an interesting point, and I didn't mean to say he was being groomed for the main event in general. He was being groomed for the main event on ECW, and was so big on that brand that he was sent to SD for that brief period. If we count main event of ECW as main event, then my point stands.

And yes they have second level feuds, but those might as well be nothing. Did you actually care about Finlay vs Henry? And don't say yes for the sake of arguement.

I have weird taste and you'll think I'm just saying "yes" for the sake of argument... so I'd best skip this point. Haha.

As I've previously said, Kane might have come in as a heel if Benoit had been there and feuded with Dreamer. I didn't mean we'd see a V/Dreamer feud.

If Kane had come in as a heel, that would have only pushed Morrison farther down the card until mid-2008.

And saying Finlay and Henry were above Morrison at that time is ludicrous (yeah, i can use obscure words that essentially mean 'silly' too ). Listen to the reactions he was getting mid 2008. That was when Henry was getting no reaction and when Finlay was only getting a reaction cause of Hornswoggle.

I've seen some crowds pretty dead for Miz and Morrison at times, but that's beside the point. Crowd reaction isn't what I'm talking about. Finlay and Henry were higher on the card than Morrison, taking up top spots on ECW that Morrison wasn't getting.

 

[Blade]

But surely if he was being groomed for the ECW main event, he would've won the belt at least once or had more than one championship match? People who are getting groomed for the main event tend to fulfill at least one of those two things. Are you saying that because of Kane, V's "main event" push stopped?

Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that you liked Henry vs Finlay. But you said it yourself, you have weird taste, so you admit anyone with normal taste generally ignored or simply didn't like Finlay/Henry? And considering that's one of the only non-ECW-title based feuds to make it to PPV, what does that tell you about non-ECW-title feuds that are on ECW?

Kane would've made no difference, heel or face. I've stated why I believe that to be true.

Yes, Miz and Morrison have bored the crowd a few times, but 1) When's the last time Morrison solo did that to a crowd? and 2) How much more do Henry and Finlay minus Hornswoggle do it?
'Pretty much never' and 'alot' are the answers

 

[Coco]

But surely if he was being groomed for the ECW main event, he would've won the belt at least once or had more than one championship match? People who are getting groomed for the main event tend to fulfill at least one of those two things. Are you saying that because of Kane, V's "main event" push stopped?

Not at all. V's push stopped because he was a big fat idiot who refused to lose some weight and the company let him go for it. This story was out a while about.

Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that you liked Henry vs Finlay. But you said it yourself, you have weird taste, so you admit anyone with normal taste generally ignored or simply didn't like Finlay/Henry?

I really wouldn't know. But considering ECW ratings went up a little when Matt become champion and these two started feuding, at the very least I can't imagine it putting many people off.

And considering that's one of the only non-ECW-title based feuds to make it to PPV, what does that tell you about non-ECW-title feuds that are on ECW?

That they're good but WWE only has room for a lot of Raw and SD stuff on PPV. To say stuff like the current Harts vs. Finlay feud isn't important on Tuesdays seems silly though. The crowd sure seems to care if I recall correctly.

Yes, Miz and Morrison have bored the crowd a few times, but 1) When's the last time Morrison solo did that to a crowd? and 2) How much more do Henry and Finlay minus Hornswoggle do it?
'Pretty much never' and 'alot' are the answers

Morrison got almost no heat against Charlie Haas or Jericho, and wasn't that over as a heel anyway. Him vs. R-Truth didn't exactly see him as a heat magnet. The crowd was more into cheering Truth than booing Morrison and greating Morrison with little reaction most of the time, which doesn't say much about his heel skills.

Henry normally gets great if not mega heat and Finlay is over without Horny as shown in his recent work with Kidd. The crowd definately cares more about Finlay and Henry than JoMo right now. That could change given the current direction of JoMo, but people care about Finlay and Henry more than you care to admit.

 

[Planty]

You know what really interests me?

With Morrison gaining arguably the biggest push of his career right now having had run-ins with Jericho etc... Morrison could soon reach the glass ceiling.

Now imagine if he does, this topic would be epic.

To think that a World Champion could have been released or at least a midcarder for life if it wasn't for the tragic events of the Benoit Family, a former World Champion himself. Its quite an eerie passing of the torch. Infact, forget I said that.

Anyhow, no I believe Morrison wouldn't have been released. He was sent to ECW for a reason and that was to help develop his skills. They wouldn't have sent someone as credible as him down there and release him shortly afterwards. I think a few lower-level feuds with Dreamer (which has been mentioned) would have took place before maybe finally capturing that ECW championship. But I do think that the Benoit Tragedy fast forwarded the career of John Morrison. I believe he'd be groomed to be champion rather than having the title placed on him as fast as they did.

In some ways, maybe Morrison could have ended up holding the ECW title for longer than he did originally. Its no secret that if Benoit had won in the original scheduled match with CM Punk then they'd eventually build up Punk to finally overcome Benoit to win the title. And I think thats what happened here- except Morrison replaced Benoit in the original plans.

If Morrison had won the title after a while on ECW (after the likes of Benoit and Punk had won it) then he might have had a longer reign with no-one immediately in line to take it off him. But thats the problem with these "what if" threads, you can't fully know for sure.

Either way, we do know Morrison's destiny as he ended up becoming part of an epic tag team which wouldn't have been out of place with the Hardys, Dudleys and E+C back in the day. Infact Miz/Morrison vs Edge/Christian would have been a personal dream match for me. Its such a shame the rest of the tag division wasn't on a par during the Miz/Morrison era (I say it as if it wasn't ages ago!).

Is JoMo lucky to have a job? Not really, he would have had it anyway.
Is JoMo lucky that he managed to have his career fast forwarded without it seeming too rushed? Yeah.