Is it TNA creative?

[shattered dreams]

Pretty much everyday on here several people say TNA has a good roster etc. but then say they hate how everyone is being used and the storylines are the source of all of TNAs problems. I am confused in several regards. First, how do you know you like the roster if they are being booked so bad? To know they are good wouldn't you have to have seen them in situations where they were good? But I am sure TNA creative had nothing to do with the good situations (obviously the talent is the only one that should get credit there) and everything to do with the "bad." Furthermore, most people say how good the Tag and KOs divisions are comparably. So how are those divisions recognizably good if the stories are so bad?

I think it has little to do with creative because just like in any other wrestling company ever, perceived quality of booking is a small factor at best, especially when judged solely by IWC opinions. I am not even going to directly play the it has only been x years card directly. The established audience factor clearly plays a role but beyond that I think it really comes down to one related factor. Exposure. TNA doesn't have the money to promote their strengths to a mass audience. They put out a decent enough product by todays standards but not enough people know it or know what is coming on a weekly basis. When they have aggressively promoted stuff (Hogan debut, BFG) they did receive a short-term boost. TNAs real battle in my opinion is getting enough income to be able to market more on non-special occasions. What it boils down to is I am not convinced TNA has exceptionally unique problems in creative and most of their lack of growth is basically a byproduct of the economic reality for a company of their current makeup in a zero growth prowrestling audience market.

Thoughts? Prepubescent incoherent ramblings? References to TNA moving back to Thursdays?

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Pretty much everyday on here several people say TNA has a good roster etc. but then say they hate how everyone is being used and the storylines are the source of all of TNAs problems. I am confused in several regards. First, how do you know you like the roster if they are being booked so bad? To know they are good wouldn't you have to have seen them in situations where they were good?

You're telling me people cannot see talent in a wrestler if they are being poorly booked? Yeah, because it's not like we haven't seen 99% of TNA's roster prior to Hogan/Bischoff/Russo

I know some of these guys are good because I've seen them wrestle. Guys like AJ, Doug Williams, Desmond Wolfe, Jay Lethal, Mr. Anderson, Beer Money, MCMG's, etc. It almost sounds like you're stick up for the creative department over the actual wrestlers. I knew you were a mark, but I didn't know you were this backward.

But I am sure TNA creative had nothing to do with the good situations (obviously the talent is the only one that should get credit there) and everything to do with the "bad."

Actually, yes. TNA wrestlers bust their humps night in and night out, and in return they are given garbage storylines to work with. The guys in the mid-card carry the PPV's in terms of in-ring quality. They put on the best matches possible, and then sit and watch the main event matches (like last night with Pope/Abyss, Jarrett/Joe and Morgan/Hardy) take a shit on everything that happened earlier in the show. Do I blame all of the guys who are working these upper-card matches? No, I blame the creative department.

Furthermore, most people say how good the Tag and KOs divisions are comparably. So how are those divisions recognizably good if the stories are so bad?

Once again, we've seen them wrestle for years, and know what they are capable of. If you can't understand this simple point, you've gone off the deep end...completely.

I think it has little to do with creative because just like in any other wrestling company ever, perceived quality of booking is a small factor at best, especially when judged solely by IWC opinions.

Quality of booking is a small factor??? Are you insane? People tune in to see the whole show, not just random matches. TNA's strong-point, no doubt, is it's in-ring action. But if storylines are garbage, people will not continue to watch.

I am not even going to directly play the it has only been x years card directly. The established audience factor clearly plays a role but beyond that I think it really comes down to one related factor. Exposure. TNA doesn't have the money to promote their strengths to a mass audience.

TNA doesn't have the mainstream exposure of a WWE, I'll give you that. But they are on Spike TV each week, for two hours. It's a plenty large enough platform, whether you can see that or not.

They put out a decent enough product by todays standards but not enough people know it or know what is coming on a weekly basis.

In your opinion, they put on a decent enough show. If this forum is a good polling tool of all wrestling fans, and I believe it is, you're in the vast minority of those wrestling fans when it comes to this particular opinion.

Wrestling fans want a good show, nothing more. You can milk the "WWE Fans hate TNA" shit as much as you want, but in the end, we're all just looking for a good show. If TNA put on a kick-ass show, most people wouldn't have negative things to say about TNA. It seems like you believe people shit on TNA just to shit on TNA, and that's a horribly childish argument.

When they have aggressively promoted stuff (Hogan debut, BFG) they did receive a short-term boost.

Short term, exactly. And why has the (very minimal) boost not lasted? Because TNA didn't show those "new" viewers anything worth sticking around for.

What it boils down to is I am not convinced TNA has exceptionally unique problems in creative and most of their lack of growth is basically a byproduct of the economic reality for a company of their current makeup in a zero growth prowrestling audience market.

Room for zero growth? How about the couple of million extra fans WWE has that do not tune into TNA regularly? Once again, you're assuming wrestling fans wouldn't appreciate a second quality wrestling promotion on television. If that's what you believe, you're dead wrong. How can you be so damn blind??

 

[King_of_Swing1520]

100% the failing of TNA is the creative. they have just a great roster of talent. the problem is Hogan Bischoff and Flair being the focal point. Immortal is composed of Abyss (who is the same old monster he's always been) Jeff jarrett (a man who would not have a job if it wasnt for being the founder) and jeff hardy (a man who is nothing with out the wwe machine). the only thing that could help tna right now if a fourtune face turn and them (with out flair) taking back tna for the origionals.

this whole immortal/fourtune storyline would make alot more sense if pope, anderson, hardy, maybe moore and other people that hogan and bischoff brought in were members of immortal/fourtune and styles, beer money, kaz, jeff jarrett, joe, and other originals were fighting to take back tna.

yes this type of storyline has been done to death in tna but its the same storyline their running now. why would styles and beer money want dixie out of power? why would they want hardy to just show up and become champ. wouldnt the tna originals want other tna originals incharge and in the championship positions?

 

[jaceynightheat]

Without a doubt it's creative. Wrestlers are just actors, they can only do so much with a bad story/script.

I think Hogan & Flair can help TNA they just don't need to be the stars. And let's face it, just because someone is a TNA Original doesn't mean they should be at the top of the card. I thought Hogan was doing good as the face general manager (or whatever the title was). Him being "Hollywood" again makes no sense, you shouldn't turn people heel unless they can wrestle. Good guys can never beat them that way.

TNA could & should focus on some TNA originals, newer talent & known people. RVD & Jeff Hardy being at the top is fine, they are known names. But people like The Pope, AJ Styles, Desmond Wolfe can also be there. Heck even when Sting shows up, it's fine that he's at the top of the card too. He's still in great shape, can wrestle, willing to lose & a known name.

Look at Eric Young, I thought he was on fire when he was leading World Elite and now he's dancing to Mickie James' horrible singing? Why?

TNA also lacks any sort of build up for it's feuds.

 

[Kitten Cutter]

Shattered dreams isn't a complete ******ed mark. (Maybe partially but not completely) He's right on exposure but wrong on the definition. TNA is fine on a television front. An uncontested 3-hour slot on Thursday is enough. Remember that once upon a time, Eric Bischoff made WCW work with two hours on Saturday evening and ECW got a cult following with nearly no show at all. As I said in a prevoius post, TNA needs match exposure. They need a big match or a big moment that a casual wrestling fan can be interested and tune in. In addition, they need to consistently keep the casual fans watching and not bore them or alienate them. You can hate on the WWE all you want but their ratings for the flagship shows rarely go below 2.5. As for TNA, the IWC and the hardcore fans will always watch no matter how bad things get, but TNA will never get above 2.0 unless they hook the casual fans. And THAT is on Creative. They don't have a franchise wrestler to market around, they don't have a groundbreaking angle to make people talk, and they don't have a strong, consistent show to gradually spread word of mouth. The wrestlers can wrestle the greatest matches ever on Impact, but without the real exposure to make people stay and watch it'll never amount to anything. Creative needs to figure out a way to get their name out there and stay there, and bringing in J-Woww is NOT going to do it.

 

[CaptainZaltan]

I was watching TNA when it was strictly PPV. I've also seen about 90% of TNA's talent in other companies before. Also, the current creative team hasn't even been in power for a year yet. So yeah, I can safely say that I've seen enough of TNA's roster under various creative teams to know that I don't like the current one. In fact, last week was the first Impact I've watched for several months.

I stopped watching specifically because i dislike TNA's creative; it has nothing to do with the talent. I've seen enough of Russo, Hogan and Bischoff over the years to know that I don't like their approach to pro-wrestling, and even though last weeks Impact wasn't that bad, I have absolutely zero faith that the show will improve or even be consistently decent so long as they remain in charge.

IMO, TNA's creative is just awful. I don't know why this is so hard for TNA marks to get. I'm not saying that they aren't doing anything right; I'm saying that they are doing enough wrong to make the show simply more painful than pleasurable to watch. I hate bloated and convoluted factions. I hate wrestlers breaking the fourth wall in interviews ("this is a shoot", etc. IT MAKES NO SENSE). I hate when certain performers are continuously pushed despite not getting over with the crowd whatsoever. I hate that the X division title is now meaningless. I hate that the world champion has the charisma of a dead fish, while every single member of his faction would have been a better choice to head it. I hate watching some of the most talented wrestlers in the world piss away their primes curtain jerking and playing second fiddle to clowns like Jeff Hardy and Rob Van Dam. And I especially hate seeing Hulk Hogan and EB 4 or 5 times a night. All of these issues (and every other that I can think of) are directly related to creative. So, there you have it.

 

[Serious Mozzarella]

How do I know I like the roster? Because I can see them wrestle. Like, I can physically see them. With my eyes. The booking has nothing to do with the wrestling itself, except for the ending, and maybe whether or not there's a squash. Otherwise, the main event roster as well as a good majority of the midcard roster are pretty solid. But the booking makes the entire show unwatchable.

So, no, you're pretty much wrong when you said that it has nothing to do with creative. That's the only reason why it's so bad, in my personal opinion. Not trying to speak for others here, but based on what I've seen in the LDs and on the non-spam forums here, I'm not alone in this opinion.

 

[realdealasshole]

Most of the guys on the roster have been seen long before Hogan and Bischoff. Not only that, I actually enjoyed watching it back then without Hogan and Bischoff. What that means is that the roster is great, but the creative sucks.

Hogan, Russo, and Bischoff are amazingly good at making top notch rosters suck because of how awful they are with creative writing. Look at the roster they had with WCW that they still managed to let fail:

Hogan, Macho Man, Roddy Piper, Bret Hart, Goldberg, Booker T, the Steiner Bros., Ultimate Warrior, Jeff Jarrett, Konnan, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, Rey Mysterio, Chris Jericho, Steve Austin, Sting, Ric Flair, Kanyon, etc. etc. etc.

All those names, in WCW at one time or another, are people who either had incredible talent or incredible star power from their days in the WWF. So they had the talent, the money, and the star power on their side. Yet, they still lost. Why? Because Bischoff, Russo, and Hogan can manage to run any company they're at the helm of directly into the ground. And that's what they're doing to TNA right now. It's so ugly I can't even watch impact anymore.

 

[shattered dreams]

So they had the talent, the money, and the star power on their side. Yet, they still lost. Why?

When they had these things they were ahead. Then the money went away through circumstance, which led to the star power going away.

I am not sure where people are coming from with these guys have been here all along. There has been a lot of new talent brought in and showcased. While it wasn't all gold, I sincerely doubt people would be praising the roster without RVD, Jeff Hardy, Ric Flair, Kendrick, Bischoff, GenMe, Mickie James, Mr. Anderson, Shannon Moore. It also seems like "being used wrong" is code for simply AJ isn't a boring face WHC that never loses.

The regime has also booked better compared to what the talent was recently doing in these cases IMO

Pope - pushed up the card as a face, used better than WWE
MCMG - champions and the general focus on the tag division has been quite good
Madison Rayne - given a push that she took and ran with leading to a resurgent KO division
Doug Williams
Kaz- showing signs of a personality in a heel role
Management - Bischoff in the boss role is much better than Dixie or Foley joking around or Jarret or others that came before that
Talent used better than other companies were - Flair, Mickie James, Anderson, Moore
TBD- the recent Matt Morgan face push has loads of potential

As far as I can tell what people really mean is that they dislike change. They liked the indy TNA. They want the boring face AJ (who developed promo skills when being used like he has this year). They want one dimensional malcontent Joe pushed no matter how much he eats. They want flippy x-division clusterfucks. How you feel about AJ and Abyss is hardly representative of the entire use of talent in the new regime. If you do not like the top of the card then please tell me when it was better? TNA has always been sketchy in the main event scene and never even had anything resembling an upper midcard until recently.

 

[Kitten Cutter]

When they had these things they were ahead. Then the money went away through circumstance, which led to the star power going away.

I am not sure where people are coming from with these guys have been here all along. There has been a lot of new talent brought in and showcased. While it wasn't all gold, I sincerely doubt people would be praising the roster without RVD, Jeff Hardy, Ric Flair, Kendrick, Bischoff, GenMe, Mickie James, Mr. Anderson, Shannon Moore. It also seems like "being used wrong" is code for simply AJ isn't a boring face WHC that never loses.

The regime has also booked better compared to what the talent was recently doing in these cases IMO

Pope - pushed up the card as a face, used better than WWE
MCMG - champions and the general focus on the tag division has been quite good
Madison Rayne - given a push that she took and ran with leading to a resurgent KO division
Doug Williams
Kaz- showing signs of a personality in a heel role
Management - Bischoff in the boss role is much better than Dixie or Foley joking around or Jarret or others that came before that
Talent used better than other companies were - Flair, Mickie James, Anderson, Moore
TBD- the recent Matt Morgan face push has loads of potential

As far as I can tell what people really mean is that they dislike change. They liked the indy TNA. They want the boring face AJ (who developed promo skills when being used like he has this year). They want one dimensional malcontent Joe pushed no matter how much he eats. They want flippy x-division clusterfucks. How you feel about AJ and Abyss is hardly representative of the entire use of talent in the new regime. If you do not like the top of the card then please tell me when it was better? TNA has always been sketchy in the main event scene and never even had anything resembling an upper midcard until recently.

First off: the money didn't go away. They were throwing it out of the windows at the over the hill wrestlers and gave people crappy storylines, so they got cancelled. Money was never their issue.

Second off: Jesus Christ. Afraid of change?! You really typed that?! If you bothered to read the post everyone has said, WE WANT CHANGE! We want the creative team to stop recycling gimmicks and come up with something new. We want the creative team to stop using bait and switch tactics. AND we want them to not suck.

Let's go to one of your inane points: A.J. Styles doesn't matter in the grand scheme. You say his promos sucked, right? Well, how many promos is he cutting now? Styles, under the new regime, went from TNA World Champion to fifth fiddle in the Immortals. He didn't even get a decent feud to get his belt back and has been held back feuding with EV2 and Tommy Dreamer. Let's see, from World Champion to Tommy Dreamer. Is that your idea of creative doing well?

Who else did you mention?
The Pope - had mini-feuds where he hasn't come out on top yet. He's losing to Abyss more often than not and still hasn't held any belt of any kind yet.
MCMG - I'll let you have this one because they got their titles under the new regime. Too bad they've been feuding with the same team for months.
Madison Rayne - You mean the worst female wrestling champion in history? Even Stephanie McMahon wrestled better than her, especially in a division that once boasted Awesome Kong, Roxxi, ODB and Gail Kim.
Douglas Williams - was that you saying 'duh?'
Kaz - Some personality. He still sounds like a robot. I'll let you have him too since he's actually getting noticed without a mask.
Bischoff - he has a lot of experience over Dixie, which by default makes him better.
Ric Flair - you mean the over-the-hill wrestler who bleeds everytime he wrestles? I actually fear for his health.
Mickie James and Mr. Anderson - how are they being used better if they only have been in for less than a year? Neither has won any belts, and Anderson has spent part of it injured.
is Moore is wrestling in yet another tag team, and Jimmy Wang Yang was a better partner. The only good thing is that he found a freaky soulmate.
Matt Morgan - the potential left when he lost to a smaller Hardy cleanly twice.

Last point: when your World Champion is going to court, you can't get more "sketchy" in your main event. The main event scene was better when Kurt Angle and Sting wanted to be champions and Styles was a resilient champion holding on.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

There are times in which wrestlers just don't have any appreciable talent, but that doesn't happen very often at all. If a wrestler is saddled with a lame character and/or feud, then that's mostly the fault of the creative team. Sometimes, though not very often, a wrestler can be saddled with a shitty character and/or feud but still have fans rally behind him and care about him enough to give him their attention.

In terms of overall characters, feuds, match length, etc. the wrestlers can only do what creative ultimately allows and tells them to do. Maybe Jay Lethal & Robbie E would have rather wrestled a match last week on iMPACT! instead of the crap they were saddled with, but they weren't allowed to. That's the fault of the creative team, not them, and it's pretty much the same with other stuff that goes on as well. Pope & Abyss are in a feud that's been centered around caskets for several weeks now. Why? Because it's ultimately what the higher ups want. If they want it as well, great but, ultimately, that doesn't really matter because they're employees doing what they're told.

I could probably sit here for quite a while and rant about the crap that makes it onto TNA television but most of it's so obvious that there's no real need to. If you're given crap by the creative people, then there's just not much you can do with it. If Lawrence Olivier were still alive and starred in the last Deuce Bigalow movie, the movie still would've been a piece of garbage despite the presence and best effort of one of the overall greatest actors to ever live. A turd is a turd and can't be polished even by the very best.

 

[excel_excel]

Pretty much everyday on here several people say TNA has a good roster etc. but then say they hate how everyone is being used and the storylines are the source of all of TNAs problems. I am confused in several regards. First, how do you know you like the roster if they are being booked so bad? To know they are good wouldn't you have to have seen them in situations where they were good? But I am sure TNA creative had nothing to do with the good situations (obviously the talent is the only one that should get credit there) and everything to do with the "bad." Furthermore, most people say how good the Tag and KOs divisions are comparably. So how are those divisions recognizably good if the stories are so bad?

The reason I know I like the roster is because I've seen them when they've been booked good!! Are you saying that everyone with a problem with TNA creative today thinks the ENTIRE time since 2002 that TNA has always booked talent poorly? That's crazy.

The reason the Tag Team division has been so successful is because the stories are simple. The Beer Money VS MCMG series was PERFECT because it was about two great teams fighting who wanted to be the tag team champions, no stupid comedy segments, no talk about backstage politics, just two teams in their prime fighting it out. The teams didn't even have to mention how important the belts were to them because you knew from the matches that they would give anything to get those belts. That was it. What did creative have to do with that beside just schedule the matches and give them the time they needed?

As far as I can tell what people really mean is that they dislike change. They liked the indy TNA. They want the boring face AJ (who developed promo skills when being used like he has this year). They want one dimensional malcontent Joe pushed no matter how much he eats. They want flippy x-division clusterfucks. How you feel about AJ and Abyss is hardly representative of the entire use of talent in the new regime. If you do not like the top of the card then please tell me when it was better? TNA has always been sketchy in the main event scene and never even had anything resembling an upper midcard until recently.

AJ was NOT boring as a face. Jesus he wasn't the best promo guy in the world but he improved on the mic as time went on and in the ring he ALWAYS delivered. And I suppose you sat there during 05' and '06 when Joe was the top star of the company and hated TNA?

 

[shattered dreams]

There are times in which wrestlers just don't have any appreciable talent, but that doesn't happen very often at all. If a wrestler is saddled with a lame character and/or feud, then that's mostly the fault of the creative team. Sometimes, though not very often, a wrestler can be saddled with a shitty character and/or feud but still have fans rally behind him and care about him enough to give him their attention.

The reason the Tag Team division has been so successful is because the stories are simple. The Beer Money VS MCMG series was PERFECT because it was about two great teams fighting who wanted to be the tag team champions, no stupid comedy segments, no talk about backstage politics, just two teams in their prime fighting it out. The teams didn't even have to mention how important the belts were to them because you knew from the matches that they would give anything to get those belts. That was it. What did creative have to do with that beside just schedule the matches and give them the time they needed?

This is what gets on my nerves. The fanboy logic of what happens on a wrestling show. If you do not like it creative is to blame. If you like it, the talent gets all the credit. This is especially odd when what is bad gimmick or feud is obviously subjective. Yeah, Beer Money came up with the best of five idea and the matchtypes and matched themselves up to begin with and position the matches on the card etc. Giving creative no credit when they succeed excel makes you hard to take serious.

In terms of overall characters, feuds, match length, etc. the wrestlers can only do what creative ultimately allows and tells them to do. Maybe Jay Lethal & Robbie E would have rather wrestled a match last week on iMPACT! instead of the crap they were saddled with, but they weren't allowed to. That's the fault of the creative team, not them, and it's pretty much the same with other stuff that goes on as well. Pope & Abyss are in a feud that's been centered around caskets for several weeks now. Why? Because it's ultimately what the higher ups want. If they want it as well, great but, ultimately, that doesn't really matter because they're employees doing what they're told.

So you have two things that you didn't like, great. How does that prove that the creative is the problem? If you are being honest there has to be at least two things you do not like when watching WWE (or really any company ever), especially if you are going to call out comedy gimmicks over straight matches. When critiquing TNA, people think that listing a couple things they dislike proves their point. To me it seems odd to fixate on the negatives when there clearly is a reason you are watching.

The reason I know I like the roster is because I've seen them when they've been booked good!! Are you saying that everyone with a problem with TNA creative today thinks the ENTIRE time since 2002 that TNA has always booked talent poorly? That's crazy.

You do realize that a third the roster that is on tv in TNA right now wasn't even there before Hogan/Bischoff joined. I also find it somewhat amusing that people think Hogan/Bischoff had no say in anything before 1/4. My main question is who is it on the current roster that everyone thinks is talented that was booked better before Hogan/Bischoff came in. Note that saying someone was booked good 5 years ago isn't exactly relevant. I am talking about in say the year before they came in. Is there anyone besides AJ? People might say Wolfe but there is clearly an issue with Wolfe that we do not know the whole story about, which makes that situation difficult to judge. I just do not see where all these wrestlers that meet this description are.

AJ was NOT boring as a face. Jesus he wasn't the best promo guy in the world but he improved on the mic as time went on and in the ring he ALWAYS delivered. And I suppose you sat there during 05' and '06 when Joe was the top star of the company and hated TNA?

AJ was not boring in the ring as a face, yes. And I suppose you think the Samoa Joe we have now has the same luster as the 05-06 one? Big fan of both of these guys but I think Joe has some stuff he needs to sort out if he is ever going to recapture the magic.

 

[MisterRob]

Of course creative's the problem. They've always been the problem. It's been that way for years, why are we still killing a dead horse? Nothing's going to change. The new regime are taking TNA in the wrong direction and that's just how it is, the company isn't going to change that or they would've already. They're blind marks who are burying themselves deeper and deeper every year.

All you have to do is look at how wrestlers are being used and how DIVISIONS are being used to know its creatives fault. The X division is nothing but a joke now, a meaningless prop. There really is NO division, it consists of Jay Lethal and the Jershey Shore ripoff. Instead of building the division as a credible and thriving division they tear it apart and all but bury it.

The X division had prestige, its title meant a great deal in terms of the company, and it had a unique roster that could've continued to be built around.. but TNA tossed that all away. It could've been built up as the mid-card title, something unique and exciting for the fans, especially considering such a large number of those who've been in the main event in some capacity or are now have or could fit into the X division easily. But instead the X division is made into a meaningless title and they create a meaningless Legends title (now Television title) that has just made things too crowded. They don't need both titles, and they don't have two different layers on the roster to compete for both.

The Knockouts division and championship was thriving at one time, praised beyond belief. It meant something, it was unique, and it was a serious division that had become the top draw of the whole company. They could've built upon that idea and the roster they had, continued to make it something inspiring and impactful.. but instead they turned it into a carbon copy of the WWE Divas division and it's fallen entirely from grace. It's now just Beautiful People and WWE Divas.

TNA, especially with the roster they have, could make their product unique and fresh. They could have a strong and thriving World title, X division title, Tag team title and Knockouts title divisions, but instead they've overcrowded the product with too many titles of little or no value, they've gone the route of WWE(or even WCW) instead of being an alternative, and they've lost every ounce of originality they actually did have. That all falls on the creative direction of the company, which just sucks right now. It's a black hole eating the company up and the unfortunate thing is I don't see that changing, because it hasn't changed in YEARS, despite warning signs all along.

Oh, and less IS more!

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

Obviously it is the creative that is the problem. If you check out the hour-wise breakdown of the ratings for Impact, you will find that it is generally the first quarter-hour of Impact that draws in most viewers. The rating subsequently declines for the rest of the quarters and is, more often than not, least by the time the show approaches its last quarter. You know what this suggests? That the fans are interested in watching the show at the start of it but the way it is booked forces them to change the channel.

As to why the roster is considered good by the IWC, it is due to the matches that the talent have on a regular basis and also because they have been booked correctly on certain occasions. Any person can see how talented Styles is whenever he enters the ring. He was also booked well during his championship run in 2009 but he was more or less buried when he became a heel champion in 2010 by losing rather emphatically to RVD. The Pope was extremely popular leading up to Lockdown this year but then he got injured and was thrown in cold storage when he returned. His feud with Abyss so far has been appalingly bad so far. Anderson is an example of good booking on the part of TNA in my opinion and that is the reason why he is the biggest face in the company today.

So its not like TNA's booking is total shit but the bad certainly outweighs the good. For every Angle vs Anderson feud we have the Abyssamania angle, Samoa Joe getting kidnapped by ninjas, Abyss vs Pope feud and many more. So it is certainly the creative that is at fault for these angles and not the stars and that is the reason why the IWC shits on the creative team of TNA.

 

[Kitten Cutter]

Let's see...who was booked better before Hogan and Bischoff came in? I've only been watching since October 2009 but here's my best guess:

Hernandez, Homicide, Awesome Kong, Taylor Wilde, Hamada, Christopher Daniels, Shark Boy, Sonjay Dutt, and Daffney - all were working before Hogan and Bischoff came in.

Rob Terry - from Global champion and World Elite muscle to mindless drone

Samoa Joe - from vicious quiet bad-ass to jobbing to Jeff Jarrett and losing three straight PPVs

A.J. Styles - he...oh, right, we have to ignore him. Whoops.

Kurt Angle - He wasn't looking to retire and popping up in caskets.

Sting - from leader of the Main Event Mafia to bitter old man (that's storyline)

Kevin Nash - didn't he bring in his friends just so they could get fired.

Team 3D - not as overexposed as they are now, nor were they saddled with a feud against each other again.

Eric Young - from leader of World Elite to stupid comedy jobber

Orlando Jordan - he wasn't bisexual and making people uncomfortable in and out of the ring

Tara - wasn't losing to the worst female champion in history and wasn't retired and unretired to become a personal slave/bodyguard

Kaz - practically conquered the X-division as Suicide and now is Ric Flair's brownnoser.

Abyss - was on his own and not serving Hogan and Bischoff

Jeff Jarrett - was better as a face and doing more than making kids tap out in a fake MMA gimmick

Beer Money - weren't they tag team champions last year?

And lastly...

Dixie Carter - was better just being the face owner talking to people and not trying to act and emote.

 

[shattered dreams]

Let's see...who was booked better before Hogan and Bischoff came in? I've only been watching since October 2009 but here's my best guess:

Hernandez, Homicide, Awesome Kong, Taylor Wilde, Hamada, Christopher Daniels, Shark Boy, Sonjay Dutt, and Daffney - all were working before Hogan and Bischoff came in.

You do realize none of the above people have been currently featured and many are not even on the current roster. Also, aside from Daniels not sure if they meet the part about being thought to be talented anyway.

Rob Terry - from Global champion and World Elite muscle to mindless drone
Actually he went from world elite muscle to Global champion under hogan/bischoff and now he is basically off impact, not sure why that is a bad thing either

Samoa Joe - from vicious quiet bad-ass to jobbing to Jeff Jarrett and losing three straight PPVs
More like from confused pansy MEM whipping boy with a penis on his face back to vicious quiet badass, omg he lost a match those bastards don't know how to use him!

Kurt Angle - He wasn't looking to retire and popping up in caskets.
Angle-AJ, Angle-Anderson, Angle-Hardy with Angle-Jarrett on the horizon, what a terrible use of him they have made

Sting - from leader of the Main Event Mafia to bitter old man (that's storyline)
Kevin Nash - didn't he bring in his friends just so they could get fired.
bitter old man?, people were into their story heading into BFG, now they are off tv for a while so I am not sure if they are part of the roster in question or not

Team 3D - not as overexposed as they are now, nor were they saddled with a feud against each other again.
assumed they were not part of the talent liked, how are they overexposed they were champions last year, this year not, I think they PWI tag team of the year last year actually but that doesn't matter because seems like no one thinks they meet the talented part anyway

Eric Young - from leader of World Elite to stupid comedy jobber
more like from being in over his head back to a gimmick he is beloved in

Orlando Jordan - he wasn't bisexual and making people uncomfortable in and out of the ring
he also was unemployed

Tara - wasn't losing to the worst female champion in history and wasn't retired and unretired to become a personal slave/bodyguard
contract issue and is now being heavily featured in the resurgent KO division, her interaction with Madison also served as the first step in the rise of Rayne

Kaz - practically conquered the X-division as Suicide and now is Ric Flair's brownnoser.
how dare they end a stale suicide, is this a serious statement because in your last post you said:
"Kaz - Some personality. He still sounds like a robot. I'll let you have him too since he's actually getting noticed without a mask."

Abyss - was on his own and not serving Hogan and Bischoff
I assumed he was excluded from the liking the roster stuff since everyone seems to hate him now

Jeff Jarrett - was better as a face and doing more than making kids tap out in a fake MMA gimmick
I think a simple you are wrong works here since this is obviously incorrect

Beer Money - weren't they tag team champions last year?
yeah those talentless pieces of shit 3D made them last year, belts aren't everything and I think they have been featured fairly comparably this year but at least we finally found one with some merit

And lastly...

Dixie Carter - was better just being the face owner talking to people and not trying to act and emote.
seems like creative had her take a backseat to Bischoff to me, she also did her best work in that story coming out of BFG IMO

I saw rattlesnake and you both mention pope earlier. Pope was a midcarder in WWE that was never given much in creative. He came to TNA and feuded with suicide as a heel being allowed to cultivate the Pope character. Then it would seem the new people coincided with the face turn that has had a lot of momentum at points. Sometimes injuries set you back, ask Anderson, but even if you do not love the current pope-abyss stuff I find it hard to justify creative doing worse to him this year than in the rest of his career.

 

[Kitten Cutter]

You do realize none of the above people have been currently featured and many are not even on the current roster. Also, aside from Daniels not sure if they meet the part about being thought to be talented anyway.



I saw rattlesnake and you both mention pope earlier. Pope was a midcarder in WWE that was never given much in creative. He came to TNA and feuded with suicide as a heel being allowed to cultivate the Pope character. Then it would seem the new people coincided with the face turn that has had a lot of momentum at points. Sometimes injuries set you back, ask Anderson, but even if you do not love the current pope-abyss stuff I find it hard to justify creative doing worse to him this year than in the rest of his career.

Well I'm glad your opinion is the be-all end-all of opinions.

First off, the people I listed that are not currently on the roster were all talented wrestlers. All of them were better than their short-lived replacements such as the Nasty Boys, Scott Hall, Sean Waltman, Sean Morley and Bubba the Love Sponge.

Rob Terry - you said booked better, and Rob Terry has not been booked better, whether you like him or not. You can't base your statement on whether you like the guy. This is fact.

Samoa Joe - He was fighting for the World Title until Hogan and Bischoff came in. Now he's floating aimlessly and jobbing even though he's still over. That's not being booked better. Doesn't matter that you don't like him.

Kurt Angle - Oh, on the horizon? Oh, THAT's what you consider booking? Well, in that case, you suck at it. If it's not actively happening, it hasn't been booked. And by the way, all of the feuds you mentioned have happened in some way already. Only the Hardy-Angle match has potential since there was no clear winner.

Sting - He's taking time off and I heard his contract is still active. Before that, what was he doing? Feuding with Jarrett for six months and talking about how evil Hogan was. Then, when Hogan revealed himself, he went home. No rafters, no heroic save. Sounds like a WCW copy without some pages.

Kevin Nash - since you so want to not include members on the roster, I'll leave him out. He should count because the Wolfpac feud was a mess.

Team 3D - they're part of the roster, and they count. From PWI's best team to feuding with each other for the 4th time. Bad booking.

Eric Young - So you like Eric Young tag teaming with Orlando Jordan and warding off his gay advances, turning heel and joining the Wolfpac even though they turned on him and beat the hell out of him several times, and now walking around in assless chaps? Seems like a step down from being Global champion. That means not booked better.

Orlando Jordan - Hey, you're right! Your first point! Fitting that it'd be him.

Tara - Didn't she lay down and GIVE UP the title to Madison Rayne? Isn't she merely a stopgap to Mickie James getting a title shot? She went from dominant Knockouts champion to a bodyguard. Her feud with Mickie James is great, but it's a step down from last year.

Kaz - Suicide didn't talk much. Kaz does. Suicide was X-division champion. Kaz held it for a month until Douglas Williams took it back. What has he done since besides stand behind Flair? What's his big victory this year?

Abyss - I didn't realize you had to love someone for them to be booked well. He's a monster. He has lost to Stevie Richards. Enough said.

Jeff Jarrett - I'm wrong. Great argument. OK, my rebuttal...Jarrett is better as a face in the company he built, and now he's a lackey trying to play a legit tough guy despite his age and background.

Beer Money - Did you write that belts aren't everything? Well, tell that to the Motor City Machine Guns! Tell that to every professional wrestler that being the top guy or top tag team means nothing, because Shattered Dreams said so! It's a shame no one agrees with you!

Dixie Carter - Owner of the company takes a backseat to a consultant? She sits out for a month and comes back for two minutes on Thanksgiving to serve an injunction? No wrestlers come to her aid? No one on her side? No one even talks about her on broadcasts except one in a blue moon? How is she booked better than she was hosting pep rallys?

The Pope - He is booked better except that they turned him heel, then face, and feuding with a guy he has no chemistry. He kept coming up short in title matches, but he is booked better than last year. That's two.

You can have Orlando Jordan, The Pope, the Motor City Machine Guns and Douglas Williams. That's 5 wrestlers that I will digress are booked better than last year. That is sad. Very sad. Especially since only The Pope will ever come close to being a World champ.

Your turn.

 

[shattered dreams]

I think you are confused about what booked better means, among numerous other things. Booked better does not necessarily mean won more kayfabe accomplishments or had a better spot. That implies that every year everyone on your roster has to keep getting a bigger an better spot (impossible) and no one should ever lose. I'll leave my question in bold from earlier to some interested in a reasonable discussion that understand what we are talking about here. People like the current roster but say they are being used poorly since Hogan/Bischoff came in. Who are all these wrestlers that you like that are being used poorly compared to when you did like TNA? I know AJ Styles but who are the others?

Just like the X-division, blaming the downfall on Hogan/Bischoff is nothing more than a convenient scapegoat. I think it is fairly noncontroversial that both the Tag division and KOs have actually improved relatively speaking for this year as a whole. Hard to say yet but the TV title looks about as good as it ever has right now, which isn't saying much but it certainly isn't worse. Maybe people disagree with some of the choices for champion (when don't they in the IWC) but they are all certainly credible and there has been more focus on the WHC this year than any I can remember. The initial transition had its rocky moments but I think people that are still fixating on that missed what happened since. It seems to boil down to classic smarktitude. Me like AJ flippy winny, Me hate Hogan he old no flippy. And yes I know AJ does more than flippies before some idiot says that is what I meant through my sarcasm.

Ultimately I think a key distinction is that just because someone is not used ideally (very hard to do for everyone on a roster simultaneously) does not mean they are used poorly.

 

[Kitten Cutter]

Well, thank you for calling me an idiot without flat-out saying it. I guess I should feel honored you don't want to actually insult me.

I sorry I misunderstood. I should have answered your question with: "Oh my God, I LOVE TNA Creative! They have booked every wrestler I love the right way!" Never mind that I gave you a list of wrestlers who have been booked poorly not just because they lost but because their characters are either doing less than they were before or portrayed in a worser light than last year, rather than just simply say "TNA Creative sucks my favorite wrestler isn't winning."

I'll answer your question in this light: Samoa Joe was growing on me because he was a legit bad-ass in the form of Taz in ECW. He had the great submission holds and the extra agility, and he was quiet and moody. Ever since Hogan and Bischoff came in, he's done nothing credible except feud with the fake MMA gimmick of Jeff Jarrett, who can't even have the decency to feud with just him but must split his time with Kurt Angle. Joe has been mired in obscurity and hasn't come close to getting a title shot even though when I started watching he was feuding with A.J. Styles for the title and coming close to getting it. I think the booking is muddled and focusing too much on Angle and leaving Samoa Joe as a pathetic loser who'll never get his revenge for Bound For Glory, which kills off any credibility he has going into 2011.

And if you don't like Samoa Joe, that's a you problem. Apparently you have plenty of them.