Intl. Region, Leeds Subregion, First Round: (4) Chris Benoit vs. (29) Mark Henry

Discussion in 'International Region' started by klunderbunker, Mar 28, 2014.

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Who Wins This Matchup?

  1. Chris Benoit

  2. Mark Henry

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  1. Dan Severn's Moustache

    Dan Severn's Moustache Patent Pending

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    It's funny that you've taken none of that into context. After his title reign, Benoit was on fucking Heat beating up Rodney Mack and Tomko, and wrestling guys like Rob Conway. He drew against Eugene, a comedy ******. I can go on.

    And more often than not, Henry's losses were DQ's because of his savagery and not major matches, like you said. Benoit's losses were nearly all pinfalls. Henry was almost never beaten clean during that period. Also, his prime ended at Royal Rumble 2012 because he left the main event scene after.

    If you going to use statistics, at least use some context.

    Both guys were mid-carders for the majority of their careers. If this was a battle between them at their mid-card stages, Benoit would win. But in Henry's prime, against a prime upper-midcarder Benoit, Benoit would be exactly the kind of guy to be inducted into the Hall of Pain, just like the other upper-midcarders that got inducted. Not to mention, Henry in general has the advantage in a match because of his strength and size. Benoit's style is not very effective against a prime Henry.

    The superplex spot made Henry look like a monster. It showed the immense amount of power that Henry had, and it was a great conclusion to a decent battle of the beasts. The story was the monsters trying to conquer one another, with Henry attaining the K.O the first meeting, Henry getting DQ'd the second time and a final war for the title in a chair match, where Henry lost and destroyed Big Show for Bryan to cash in.

    All of those names apart from Morrison and Johnny Curtis (and even then, a case COULD be made as the NXT winner for Curtis and former ECW and Tag Champion Morrison) helped convey the point of the Hall of Pain. The monsters (You forgot Kane) all naturally helped Henry establish him as the King of the Monsters and it helped showcase Henry's immense strength. It's what made the feud between Show and Henry surprisingly very compelling. Those monsters were credible threats that were destroyed. Then Henry moved onto destroying the upper-midcarders before dominating the main-event scene until Big Show returned.

    This isn't a tournament to determine how consistent someone is, otherwise people would just say "Rocky Maivia" or "The Ringmaster" when they argue against Rock or Austin. It's a tournament to determine who has the tools to survive in a tournament environment. Both of these guys could beat multiple guys in the first round, but Benoit has a rotten draw against a guy who could power out of his submission holds, can't be suplexed by Benoit, and strikes do very little unless coming from another monster. The 2004 mach didn't mean jackshit because Henry meant nothing at that point. When he actually mattered, his run at the top overshadowed Benoit's run at the top.
     
    #126
  2. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    Hasn't stopped Benoit from being him and others of similar strength and size.

    It was declared a no-contest. Henry didn't attain anything.

    So he took the coward's way out? Henry beat him before he was champion. He was too scared to do it when it counted?

    Couldn't destroy him and get the pinfall, now could he?








    If he could do this to Viscera, he could certainly do the same to Henry.

    Kurt Angle beat Henry after he took out Batista. Matt Hardy beat Henry clean as a sheet to retain the ECW title. And why can't Benoit beat Henry again?

    How long has Henry been billed as the World's Strongest Man?

    Was he a weakling in 2004?

    I thought he always had his strength and his size. Was he 200 pounds back then and I just didn't see it?

    Sure took him a long time to actually matter.
     
    #127
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  3. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    Jan - Dec 2004 Chris Benoit's record by opponent:

    Batista: W10 L1 D0
    Big Show: W0 L1 D0
    Rob Conway: W2 L0 D0
    Edge: W8 L2 D2
    Eugene: W0 L0 D1
    Ric Flair: W5 L0 D0
    Matt Hardy: W1 L0 D0
    Triple H: W24 L7 D0
    Mark Henry: W2 L0 D0
    Chris Jericho: W1 L0 D0
    Kane: W15 L0 D0
    Rodney Mack: W1 L0 D0
    Shawn Michaels: W1 L1 D0
    Matt Morgan: W0 L1 D0
    Randy Orton: W2 L2 D0
    Chuck Palumbo: W6 L0 D0
    Rhyno: W1 L0 D0
    Tyson Tomko: W1 L0 D0
    Viscera: W1 L0 D0

    Totals: W81 L15 D3

    This becomes even more impressive if we only take his WHC run:

    Batista: W3 L0 D0
    Rob Conway: W1 L0 D0
    Eugene: W0 L0 D1
    Ric Flair: W3 L0 D0
    Triple H: W24 L0 D0
    Kane: W14 L0 D0
    Shawn Michaels: W1 L0 D0
    Matt Morgan: W0 L1 D0
    Randy Orton: W2 L1 D0
    Rhyno: W1 L0 D0

    Totals: W49 L2 D1 (Record against Evolution: W32 L1 D0)


    Mark Henry's period from his transfer to SmackDown in April 2011 - April 2012 (when he got injured).

    Big Show: W4 L11 D2
    Daniel Bryan: W6 L3 D1
    John Cena: W0 L2 D0
    Christian: W1 L1 D0
    Johnny Curtis: W1 L0 D0
    Chavo Guerrero Jnr: W1 L0 D0
    Bobby Heller: W1 L0 D0
    Ezekial Jackson: W3 L0 D0
    Kane: W1 L2 D0
    Great Khali: W2 L0 D0
    Vladimir Kozlov: W1 L0 D0
    John Morrison: W2 L0 D0
    Rey Mysterio: W0 L1 D0
    Randy Orton: W5 L6 D3
    CM Punk: W3 L1 D0
    Zack Ryder: W0 L1 D0
    Sheamus: W2 L17 D0
    Yoshi Tatsu: W6 L0 D0

    Totals: W39 L45 D6

    How about the title reign...

    Big Show: W2 L9 D1
    Daniel Bryan: W3 L1 D0
    John Cena: W0 L1 D0
    Christian: W1 L0 D0
    Great Khali: W1 L0 D0
    John Morrison: W2 L0 D0
    Randy Orton: W5 L3 D1
    CM Punk: W1 L0 D0
    Zack Ryder: W0 L1 D0

    Totals: W15 L15 D2

    Sorry amigo but Mark loses 'prime' and loses bad!
     
    #128
  4. LSN80

    LSN80 King Of The Ring

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    Nate made some valid arguments that got me to abscond my original thoughts on this match, and had I considered them earlier, I would have voted Benoit. Benoit's prime was much more impressive then I gave him credit for, and I'll allow he'll have won this match, though I believe it would be tougher then you think. There's no chance Henry loses 'easy' here, and using house shows as a qualifier of someone's record holds no merit whatsoever. Benoit didn't defeat HHH 24 times on TV and PPV, nor did Henry do the same by losing nine times to the Big Show. The heel always loses at house shows, mostly by DQ, and the face hits his finisher on the heel champion after to send the crowd home happy. But I digress.

    Both had nice runs as champion, but fell quickly back into the mid-card immediately after. Henry got another shot at Money In The Bank 13', but Cena submitted him, so that's not really a mark in his favor, is it?

    Of course, Cena did the same to Benoit in '07, but it's Cena. Other then Daniel Bryan and some of the newer wrestlers(Shield, Wyatt's) on the roster, Cena has submitted them all, so it's not an accurate measurement.

    Henry is the monster heel, Benoit the underdog. The underdog overcomes the odds, much like Benoit did at WM 20.

    I was wrong. The first and last time I will ever type those words. Benoit moves on in a squeaker, kicking away a Henry charge into the corner and rolling him up. Again, it's a squeaker, Benoit's not going to crossface and submit an in his prime Henry in three minutes.
     
    #129
  5. Dan Severn's Moustache

    Dan Severn's Moustache Patent Pending

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    In Big Show or Kane's prime though?

    If we want to get into technicalities, Mark Henry KO'd Big Show with a superplex.

    That's the only real blemish on his WHC run. Champion Heels normally get DQ losses so it's not massive. It's not like Big Show got himself DQ'd against a guy like Benoit. Champion Faces aren't supposed to get help from interference from a comedy act that is more over than you.

    Neither could Benoit pin HHH clean without HBK or Eugene's help, unless veiled in a Iron Match, where HHH could pin Benoit as much as he wanted. Oh yeah, and Eugene helped him there too.


    :icon_neutral:

    Don't make me pull out the Kane argument again.

    He suplexed Viscera a total of once, and Viscera scarcely got air. Not to mention, it was the penultimate move of the match, and Benoit was against a timer, so he was throwing everything he had in that suplex and crossface to beat the time. And don't even try to say that Henry won't be able to break the crossface because of that. Vis held on for a while, Kane could power out when pretty far out of his prime, and Prime Henry could do even more.

    Angle is noticeably stronger than Benoit so he can throw him around. Not to mention, both matches aren't Henry's prime also. As an example, Khali could take an uppercut from Taker in his prime with ease. In 2013, he nearly got knocked off his feet by a Cesaro uppercut.


    2004 Kane had MUCH more stock than 2004 Henry. 2011 Henry had much more stock than 2004 Kane.

    A guy's prime is a guy's prime, no matter how late it is in their career.

    @FitFinlay: Those statistics are quite wrong, I'm afraid. If you're going to post false stats, at least make them realistic. I'm pretty sure HHH never lost 24 fucking times to Benoit during his title run, on TV or PPV at least.
     
    #130
  6. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Ok, so you agree that Benoit was better in terms of what he did in a period of time. The majority of his career, Benoit has made more of an impact then Henry has. You are trying to make a prime vs prime argument (Benoit was still better) yet ignoring your own statement that Benoit had the better career. You really are putting too much weight into a small run while minimizing the entire career of Benoit.






    Im sorry but are you somehow implying that Henry is strong now, but wasnt in 2004? Or that Benoit cant suplex him?


    Thats just silly.





    That is called conditioning & is a very weak argument. Everyone has the tools to survive a tournament environment. What a dumbass statement. You are better than that Fallout. C'mon bro.


    That isnt what this is about. This is about who wins based on criteria including , most importantly, who was a bigger star\had the better career. Since you already agreed Benoit has the better career, then I am not sure why you are still arguing.




    He could. I guess he just forgot how when Benoit made him tap?





    So a victory means nothing? Bullshit.


    Also, I do like how your whole argument is that Benoit could have been fed to Henry during his main event push- yet you ignore the point that Henry was, in fact, fed to Benoit during his. Do you see how stupid you sound insisting on the hypothetical while ignoring an obvious reality?
     
    #131
  7. Dan Severn's Moustache

    Dan Severn's Moustache Patent Pending

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    I agree that if it was a battle over who had the better career overall, Benoit would go over. But I'm comparing prime vs prime here, which is the point of the tournament. I'm not going to compare Bully Ray's run in the Dudleys with Daniel Bryan's time as US Champion. Bully Ray has won a lot more than Bryan has, but Bryan has been an top guy with better competition than Ray's run in TNA. I'm getting off-topic here, so I'll just say that I'm not factoring Benoit's dormancy in the mid-card, and I won't with Henry's either. Henry's stint, short as it may be, was a better run than Benoit's prime run with the WHC, which was also quite short when you think about it.

    Also, Benoit as a mid-carder was not a period of his career. It was nearly the entirety of it. Just correcting that.

    No, I'm saying Henry has a hell of a lot more credibility than he did in 2004. If it were as easy as that, Henry wouldn't even be in the tournament in the first place. If Kane could break the submission hold in his down-time, Henry could do it in his prime.

    To be fair, I phrased that very poorly. I meant in the sense that this isn't a tournament about who the greatest ever is (which would require one poll in the Old School Wrestling section), it's about who will win in a fight, like the BZT. That's why we have gimmick rounds so a guy who is normally outclassed has a fighting chance. That's also why we have guys like ADR and Earthquake in the tournament. It would be ludicrous to call them the best in the world, but there might be a first round match-up that favours them. In this match, you guys have shown Benoit can hang with the bigger guys, but none of those guys were equal or better than Henry was in his prime in 2011.

    Again, why do you think we have gimmick rounds if they won't make a difference? Are we supposed to only analyse the actual wrestling in those matches alone? All we have to do is post one thread on the Old School Wrestling forum to determine who people think is the best.


    Responded to LJL about this.





    Did Ultimate Warrior beating HHH in a squash mean anything? Not at all because it was well outside HHH's prime.

    I'm ignoring the reality because it bears very little to no weight on the conversation. If we want to talk about reality that matters, it's that Henry was beating upper-midcarders, and even Randy Orton consistently to overtake them in his Hall of Pain run, while Benoit could only beat the guys above him in either a triple threat environment or with the help of a comedy ******. Twice.
     
    #132
  8. Y 2 Jake

    Y 2 Jake Slightly Autistic

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    Is this thread legit? Of have I missed some kind of joke on the forum? Henry is barely a better big-man wrestler than Benoit. Henry has never even had a prime.
     
    #133
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  9. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    http://wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bilanzen&bilanzart=&wrestler=24&jahr=2004&monat=7

    A typical month in his reign.

    LSN, Henry's house show record has to count. He was being built as a monster heel and monster heels dominate - even at house shows...

    http://wrestlingdata.com/index.php?befehl=bilanzen&bilanzart=&wrestler=335&jahr=2002&monat=9
     
    #134
  10. Dan Severn's Moustache

    Dan Severn's Moustache Patent Pending

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    It doesn't matter who wins or loses at house shows at all, and to suggest so is moronic.

    You're missing the point of house shows too. The final match of house shows are the ones that are supposed to send the fans home happy, with a face going over a heel pretty much 100% of the time. Benoit's prime was as a face, Henry's was as a heel. No storyline advancement, and far from an important match.
     
    #135
  11. ProWrestlingFan

    ProWrestlingFan Championship Contender

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    Exactly. Benoit's prime was as a face. Henry's so-called prime was as a heel.

    This match is Prime Benoit vs Prime Henry.

    Prime Benoit will always be booked to beat Prime Henry.

    Thank you for proving our point of why a Prime Benoit will win this match.
     
    #136
  12. Dan Severn's Moustache

    Dan Severn's Moustache Patent Pending

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    But this isn't a typical house show match. By that logic, anyone who had a prime as a heel can't get past a guy who had any sort of prime as a face.

    Thank you for continuing to disgrace the respectable Benoit case.
     
    #137
  13. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    And yet Brock Lesnar won the vast majority of his house show matches when he was champion. Monsters should win, house show or not.
     
    #138
  14. Dan Severn's Moustache

    Dan Severn's Moustache Patent Pending

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    Because Brock Lesnar had an undefeated streak that was meant to be broken at Survivor Series by The Big Show. Henry had no such winning streak, so it wouldn't hurt him as much to lose.
     
    #139
  15. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Ummmm....


    [​IMG]





    Jericho goes over Goldberg then yes? Brock Lesnar vs Ken Shamrock in the finals?

    or do you mean:

    Like the fight that already has taken place where Benoit won? Or are we talking about a hypothetical match you think could have happened in 2011/2012? In that case Zombie Benoit > Mark Henry.


    Person with the better career? Benoit
    Match history? Benoit
    Better finisher? Benoit
    Wrestlemania main events? Benoit


    Notice a pattern there? I will give you this one though, Mark Henry was better at getting intimate with old ladies & trannies. That accolade you can have.
     
    #140
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  16. Bythedockofthebay

    Bythedockofthebay Getting Noticed By Management

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    I'm sorry but neither of these guys really had a "prime" to be proud of. Seriously if you're talking about a few months being a guys "prime" then you shouldn't even use it in your debate. Legacy here matter because neither guy had a great "prime" or much of a prime at all.
     
    #141
  17. Dan Severn's Moustache

    Dan Severn's Moustache Patent Pending

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    ^Easy tiger, save the Misawa propaganda for the next round. Which I don't necessarily disagree with.

    Sorry to grasp at straws here, but why would there be gimmick rounds if that was 100% the case? To give guys like Vader a chance against someone like Austin. Which implies it's not just about legacy, otherwise Hogan, Sammartino, Flair and Thesz would always be the final four of the tournament, and it wouldn't be fun. You could easily make a poll and give it publicity and get a very similar result. We actually look into fights and their abilities, like the BZT tournament with both guys at the peak of their form.

    That's actually something worth talking to KB about to clarify now that I think about it.

    A match that would take place on a neutral battleground, in a timezone where both guys are at their peak. Plus, this entire tournament is pretty much all hypothetical when you think about it.

    And you know, he's stronger ofc.
     
    #142
  18. Hollywood Naitch

    Hollywood Naitch The current reigning and defending

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    Although Henry was a force to be reckoned with during his "Hall of Pain" run, he has had about a year and a half of being taken seriously as a top level wrestler during his 15 year+ career, while Chris Benoit was at least at IC title level for pretty much his entire WWE run. Benoit beat better than Henry, multiple times. I don't see any reason why this match would be any different.

    Benoit is simply better than Henry is, and has ever been. He's one of the best technical wrestlers of all time, with one of the most deadly submission holds in history. Henry may have been given a win or 2 over Benoit when he was the Smackdown champion, but if we are looking at their whole careers and who is a better wrestler, then Benoit's achievements are far greater. He would win this.
     
    #143
  19. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    Okay then, Benoit faced Triple H 7 times prior to WrestleMania and lost all 7. No streak here, so why didn't the face win to send the fans home happy?
     
    #144
  20. Dan Severn's Moustache

    Dan Severn's Moustache Patent Pending

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    Because Benoit wasn't established enough yet to beat HHH at all, and even when he could, he couldn't do it cleanly. Also, I'll put my money on there being some beat-down at the end, but HBK comes out to make the save and send the crowd happy. Seriously though, stop reading into house show matches, this is enviousdominious/PWF tier, and you should know better than that.
     
    #145
  21. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    This is kayfabe and (as such) house show records count. Otherwise we forget Diesel's WWF Championship run, Sting's title victory over Vader in the UK or that Flair and Hogan never really happened in the WWF because Vince felt that he'd already oversaturated the storyline on the houseshow market.

    "Wasn't established enough"? The same Benoit who had PPV victories over Kurt Angle, Big Show and Brock Lesnar prior to this? Oh, and Trips defeated HBK as well on the run up to Mania - is he also unworthy?
     
    #146
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  22. Dan Severn's Moustache

    Dan Severn's Moustache Patent Pending

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    :icon_neutral:

    There's a MASSIVE difference between a house show title change back in the 80's and 90's and a normal dual-branded house show in, let's say Cardiff in the 00's. You're counting house shows from small US cities and the like, which pale in comparison to say the January house show where Hogan beat Sheik.

    Benoit had yet to reach his prime at that time as it was Wrestlemania build-up. HBK had had his prime already in the 90's, so it's not a big deal for HBK.
     
    #147
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  23. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    Christian defeated Booker T for the IC belt just months prior to this in Des Moines, Iowa. In 2008 in Hamilton, Ontario The Miz/John Morrison defeated CM Punk/Kofi Kingston for the Tag Belts. Epico and Primo won the Tag Belts off Air Boom two years ago in Oakland. The Women's Title changed hands in Paris in 2007. Title changes are rare but house shows still generally follow storyline and exceptions like those listed still provide that slight possibility that brings in paying customers.

    Benoit was coming off a period were he defeated three former World Champions (Angle, Show, Lesnar), I don't think he was too far off his prime... unlike Henry, who was drafted to SmackDown after two years of failing to win tag team gold.
     
    #148
  24. Rainbow Yaz

    Rainbow Yaz Sing about me, I'm dying of thirst
    E-Fed Mod

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    Using house show results for pro wrestling is like using preseason NFL games for arguments. Every now and then you can find some decent info, but most of the information is largely useless.

    Most house show title changes have story behind them. When Air Boom lost the titles it was days after Bourne pissed hot, so they pretty much defaulted the titles to the only other relevant team at the time.
     
    #149
  25. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    Maybe so, and if I was picking a single show, I'd be pissing up the stupid tree. However, houseshows can be used as an overview of a reasonably lengthy title run to gauge how the champion is being presented. In this case, Benoit was portrayed as a strong champion who overcame strong opponents and Henry was portrayed as a guy who relied on DQs and Countouts to overcome his better opponents. As the argument for Mark is the dominance of his reign, this goes against the argument.

    However, to be fair here is Mark's 1vs1 television history with the BGB:

    Randy Orton: 2 clean wins and 2 dq loses
    Christian: 1 clean win
    Great Khali: 1 clean win
    John Morrison: 1 clean win
    CM Punk: 1 dq win
    Daniel Bryan: 1 clean win and 1 dq win
    Big Show: 1 no contest and 1 clean defeat

    So in his 2 month reign he had 6 clean wins out of 12 1on1 matches, not really that dominant.

    Benoit's TV reign:

    Rhyno: 1 clean win
    Rob Conway: 1 clean win
    Shawn Michaels: 1 clean win
    Kane: 2 clean wins
    Triple H: 2 clean wins
    Eugene: 1 no contest
    Batista: 1 dq win
    Randy Orton: 1 clean loss

    In his 5 month reign he had 7 clean wins out of 10 1on1 matches (and that's ignoring both 3 ways) despite the best efforts of Evolution throughout his reign.
     
    #150
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