Intl. Region, Leeds Subregion, First Round: (4) Chris Benoit vs. (29) Mark Henry

[Dan Severn's Moustache]

Check out the 2006 ratings

http://www.gerweck.net/tv-ratings/2006-ratings/

Aside from the temporary 4s. WWE ratings have always been around 3.5. - 3.9 since 2004.

And 2008 was the year WWE went PG.

Certainly more 4's than post Benoit, which I believe was one in 2007.

And the reason WWE went PG is because of Benoit's actions, or that was at least a primary catalyst.

Benoit's achievements in wrestling are overshadowed by his tragic final days. Not to mention, we've already proven why Prime Henry would beat Prime Benoit plenty of times. You guys are just trying to dance around the question and keep referencing a non prime Henry loss to a prime Benoit.

 

[ProWrestlingFan]

Fuck, I voted Benoit but those numbers, while having no source and being borderline spam, just prove Haiku's argument that ratings dipped. Benoit died June 24, 2007. The news broke June 25(the day of the Benoit tribute show). It wasn't until the next day that the truth came out and WWE released their statement regarding the situation. It may not have been a huge dip, but it was a dip. Even if you only get to slip in the tip, it still counts.

Not really the point. Look at what Haiku said:

Ratings started to fall after Benoit's death. I wouldn't necessarily say plummet... But definitely fall, and fall hard.

And, after I showed the ratings he changes it to "it dropped half a point". Dropping "half a point" and "ratings fell and fell hard" are two very contradicting statements. And even that wasn't entirely true as WWE still got ratings and high 3s and low 4s after Benoit.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Then accuse him of hyperbole, but don't post information that backs up his argument. He argued that ratings fell, you posted info that showed that ratings fell.

Like I said, I voted for Benoit because for better or worse he had a much greater impact on the wrestling world than Henry could ever hope for, but if I'm trying to win an argument I'm not gonna present facts that prove my opponent right.

Come to think of it, I would consider changing my vote if I could. Mark Henry may have fathered a hand, but he never killed the deformed little fucker.

 

[Con T.]

Not really the point. Look at what Haiku said:



And, after I showed the ratings he changes it to "it dropped half a point". Dropping "half a point" and "ratings fell and fell hard" are two very contradicting statements. And even that wasn't entirely true as WWE still got ratings and high 3s and low 4s after Benoit.

You do realize that a half a point is a pretty big drop, right?

I mean, think about it... That's probably measured around to 500,000 viewers gone. A 500,000 drop, from (let's just round up) 4,000,000 viewers?

Yeah, that's pretty god damned bug, for wrestling. So no matter how you slice it, yeah, that's kind of wrong.

 

[ProWrestlingFan]

We are talking about Chris Benoit, the wrestler here not Chris Benoit, the man. And Chris Benoit, the wrestler had a way better career and impact on the wrestling industry than Mark f'n Henry. Mark Henry the wrestler was, is and will always be considered a midcarder, thats his legacy.

 

[Danger Burger]

You goofs are arguing everything backwards. Benoit stops showing up, ratings fall... Sounds like Benoit was a draw. How much do you think ratings will drop when Henry kicks the bucket? Not a bit.

Whatever damage Benoit's real life caused, there's still little showing any real plus from Henry's being there. Hit me up with some of that and we'll talk.

And still... over 15 years and only three titles??

 

[Con T.]

We are talking about Chris Benoit, the wrestler here not Chris Benoit, the man. And Chris Benoit, the wrestler had a way better career and impact on the wrestling industry than Mark f'n Henry.

And we're back to this... What impact did he have on the wrestling industry, when alive? He wasn't a draw, wasn't a main event fixture. Really, his legacy while alive is certainly not that of an elite wrestler.

And in death... Well, we've already shown the impact he had on the wrestling business. And that isn't counting the ceaseless exposés in the wrestling business that he (yes, he) caused.

 

[Dan Severn's Moustache]

You goofs are arguing everything backwards. Benoit stops showing up, ratings fall... Sounds like Benoit was a draw. How much do you think ratings will drop when Henry kicks the bucket? Not a bit.

Whatever damage Benoit's real life caused, there's still little showing any real plus from Henry's being there. Hit me up with some of that and we'll talk.

And still... over 15 years and only three titles??

Please tell me you're joking. Ignoring the fact Henry probably won't die while he's still employed in WWE, Henry probably won't murder people IRL and turn people off wrestling because of it. There's also no evidence that Benoit was indeed a draw, especially during his prime when he was overshadowed by HHH and HBK.

I've parroted this point so much but I'll do it again.

Benoit cannot beat Henry because:

• He doesn't have the tools to beat a prime Henry.
• Prime Henry was beating up upper-midcarders, something Benoit was in his prime
• Daniel Bryan, the closest thing to Benoit at the time period was beaten in a one on one match clean by Henry. Yes, it was a Cage match, but you're implying that Benoit was going to run out of the ring and act completely out of character?
• Consistency doesn't win you a match unless you were constantly in your prime during that consistent run.

I can go on.

 

[ProWrestlingFan]

Please tell me you're joking. Ignoring the fact Henry probably won't die while he's still employed in WWE, Henry probably won't murder people IRL and turn people off wrestling because of it. There's also no evidence that Benoit was indeed a draw, especially during his prime when he was overshadowed by HHH and HBK.

I've parroted this point so much but I'll do it again.

Benoit cannot beat Henry because:

• He doesn't have the tools to beat a prime Henry.
• Prime Henry was beating up upper-midcarders, something Benoit was in his prime
• Daniel Bryan, the closest thing to Benoit at the time period was beaten in a one on one match clean by Henry. Yes, it was a Cage match, but you're implying that Benoit was going to run out of the ring and act completely out of character?
• Consistency doesn't win you a match unless you were constantly in your prime during that consistent run.

I can go on.

• A Prime Benoit was booked to win the Royal Rumble and beat Shawn Michaels and Triple H clean at Wrestlemania and Backlash, back to back.
  
  A prime Mark Henry wasn't even booked to beat Big Show clean at a B PPV.
  
  
• A Prime Benoit main evented Wrestlemania and won the company's biggest title
  
  A prime Mark Henry was given the title just because of roster lacking in starpower and not to mention Jack fucking Swagger won the title before Mark Henry.

 

[Con T.]

• A Prime Benoit was booked to win the Royal Rumble

• 
  
  Too bad this isn't a Royal Rumble.
  
  

  and beat Shawn Michaels and Triple H at Wrestlemania and Backlash, back to back.

  
  And was booked as the second banana to both men. Shawn was inserted into Benoit and Triple H's match.
  
  Why? Because that was the actual feud...
  
  

  A prime Mark Henry wasn't even booked to beat Big Show clean at a B PPV.

  
  Ermm... Actually he did.
  
  Money in the Bank. 2011.
  
  
  

  [*]A Prime Benoit main evented Wrestlemania and won the company's biggest title

  
  Debatable as be biggest title. And as I've outlined, he wasn't the guy... Triple H was.
  
  Let's see what you get wrong next post.

 

[Dan Severn's Moustache]

• A Prime Benoit was booked to win the Royal Rumble and beat Shawn Michaels and Triple H at Wrestlemania and Backlash, back to back.
  
  A prime Mark Henry wasn't even booked to beat Big Show clean at a B PPV.
  
  
• A Prime Benoit main evented Wrestlemania and won the company's biggest title
  
  A prime Mark Henry was given the title just because of roster lacking in starpower and not to mention Jack fucking Swagger won the title before Mark Henry.

1: Yeah, with 29 men to factor in and with over the top rope rules, and a match he could have easily lost if he had no time to prepare against Big Show. And triple threat matches where the psychology stems from HBK and HHH hating one another and losing sight on Benoit.

2: It still took Big Show, another monster three tries to stop Henry. Also, this is a FAR more dominant way to defend a championship than enlist the help of a ******ed guy.

[YOUTUBE]e0huBz-3tf8[/YOUTUBE]

3: Benoit wasn't the focus though. He was just the sleeper candidate who won the Rumble, while HBK and HHH were embroiled in a personal feud, which leads me back to the psychology point.

4: We'll ignore the fact that Mark Henry had Sheamus, Big Show and the biggest babyface aside from Cena to deal with (who he beat clean twice) to contend with, and instead address that Mark Henry's reign offered a resurgence of that title, having great feuds with both Orton and Big Show.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

A prime Miz main evented Wrestlemania and won the company's biggest title. Would you rank Miz above Henry?

A prime Lawrence Taylor main evented Wrestlemania and won a match. Is LT better than Henry?

Hell Mr. T has main evented two Wrestlemanias and won both times, and he didn't even make the tournament despite clearly being better than Henry.

Fuck, I wanna change my vote.

 

[ProWrestlingFan]

Too bad this isn't a Royal Rumble.



And was booked as the second banana to both men. Shawn was inserted into Benoit and Triple H's match.

Why? Because that was the actual feud...



Ermm... Actually he did.

Money in the Bank. 2011.

Erm..We are talking about Mark Henry's title reign here. Mark Henry won the title at Night of Champions 2011 not Money in the Bank 2011.

Money in the Bank was in July, Night of Champions was in September. Mark Henry never defeated Big Show clean during his title reign. Let's see what YOU get wrong next post.

 

[Alex]

A Prime Benoit was booked to win the Royal Rumble and beat Shawn Michaels and Triple H at Wrestlemania and Backlash, back to back.

You should never count wins in a triple threat because there's an extra man that changes the scenario. Did Benoit ever beat Triple H or Shawn Michaels one on one

A prime Mark Henry wasn't even booked to beat Big Show clean at a B PPV.

He still beat him though

A Prime Benoit main evented Wrestlemania and won the company's biggest title

Benoit main evented with two of the biggest names on the roster (if not of all time)

A prime Mark Henry was given the title just because of roster lacking in starpower and not to mention Jack fucking Swagger won the title before Mark Henry.
[/LIST]

A prime Benoit had the WHC and very few people cared. Surely having the top title means you're supposed to be a big deal, not an afterthought.

Henry took the WHC and ran with it. It's still seen as a great reign whereas Benoit's is basically an afterthought.

 

[Con T.]

Erm..We are talking about Mark Henry's title reign here. Mark Henry won the title at Night of Champions 2011 not Money in the Bank 2011.

Money in the Bank was in July, Night of Champions was in September. Mark Henry never defeated Big Show clean during his title reign. Let's see what YOU get wrong next post.

I don't see why including his buildup to becoming champion is a problem

In fact, that fully qualifies in this "six month" window everyone is talking about. From June to about April, Henry beat all of these names clean.

• Big Show
• Kane
• Randy Orton
• Sheamus
• D-Bry

And, if I really want to argue semantics....

A prime Mark Henry wasn't even booked to beat Big Show clean at a B PPV.

Your exact words.

Sounds like a damn good prime to me.

 

[Dan Severn's Moustache]

Erm..We are talking about Mark Henry's title reign here. Mark Henry won the title at Night of Champions 2011 not Money in the Bank 2011.

Money in the Bank was in July, Night of Champions was in September. Mark Henry never defeated Big Show clean during his title reign. Let's see what you get wrong, next post.

By that logic, the Royal Rumble 2004 never happened, but you seem still intent on posting it.

Also, Mark Henry was beginning his big Hall of Pain push. Big Show was an inductee into the Hall of Pain that night. Big Show returned, and that's what built the compelling feud.

Benoit's feuds consisted of primarily this:

Benoit: OMGZ, I wanted to do this when I was child!

Challenger: Grr, I iz angry guy who thinks u don't deserve it.

Benoit: Fite me then bro.

Challenger: M8, I'll take ur title from u.

*cue the same clips of Benoit each and every time*

 

[Danger Burger]

There's also no evidence that Benoit was indeed a draw, especially during his prime when he was overshadowed by HHH and HBK.

When I found out Benoit died, i tuned in for the tribute show... First I'd watched in years. Not sure when the last time I figured "hey Henry should be on this show!"

He doesn't have the tools to beat a prime Henry.

What tools? Taking his legs out? Twisting his neck? If DB (like you said, the closest we have to Benoit) can beat Henry is his prime, why can't Benoit?

Prime Henry was beating up upper-midcarders, something Benoit was in his prime

Prime Benoit was beating Main eventers, something Henry never was.

Daniel Bryan, the closest thing to Benoit at the time period was beaten in a one on one match clean by Henry. Yes, it was a Cage match, but you're implying that Benoit was going to run out of the ring and act completely out of character?

Who had that title by the end of the Fued? DB beat both Henry and Big Show in a cage match. Benoit beat HHH and Shawn Micheals.

Consistency doesn't win you a match unless you were constantly in your prime during that consistent run. [/quote]

You don't consistantly get the gold in every company you wrestle for without being pretty good. I still don't know how you can argue Henry's three titles over everything Benoit has done in WWE/WCW and NJPW. Singles titles, tag titles, everywhere he went. Versus three titles in 18 years.

 

[ProWrestlingFan]

Henry took the WHC and ran with it. It's still seen as a great reign whereas Benoit's is basically an afterthought.

Maybe you do. I bet more people remember the main-event of Wrestlemania 20 and this moment........

......more than some forgettable title reign of a lifelong midcarder on a B show (as nobody really watches Smackdown).

 

[Dan Severn's Moustache]

When I found out Benoit died, i tuned in for the tribute show... First I'd watched in years. Not sure when the last time I figured "hey Henry should be on this show!"

Maybe because Henry isn't dead? You're implying too that Benoit wasn't a draw when he was alive.

What tools? Taking his legs out? Twisting his neck? If DB (like you said, the closest we have to Benoit) can beat Henry is his prime, why can't Benoit?

No, Daniel Bryan beat Henry and Big Show in a cage match while they were destroying one another. He escaped with the title because of the same psychological advantage that Benoit had at WM21 and Backlash. Henry in fact beat Bryan clean in a cage match. And don't even try to bring up the 2004 match that Henry and Benoit had.

Prime Benoit was beating Main eventers, something Henry never was.

Randy Orton was a main-eventer. Henry beat him clean twice. Benoit needed Eugene's help beating HHH.

Who had that title by the end of the Fued? DB beat both Henry and Big Show in a cage match. Benoit beat HHH and Shawn Micheals.

Like I said, Benoit had the psychological advantage. Also, Michaels and HHH's feud ended at Badd Blood, aka the match AFTER Benoit's defence against Kane.

You don't consistantly get the gold in every company you wrestle for without being pretty good. I still don't know how you can argue Henry's three titles over everything Benoit has done in WWE/WCW and NJPW. Singles titles, tag titles, everywhere he went. Versus three titles in 18 years.

Steve Austin did a hell of a lot more than Vader. That doesn't stop Vader from beating him with an appropriate stipulation. A one on one match against Benoit is an appropriate stipulation for Henry because Benoit needed a distraction to win his title and defend it once in a rematch, beat Kane during one of his worst years and beat HHH because a ******ed guy that was more over than Benoit helped him.

@PWF: People remember that moment because both Eddie and Benoit are dead.

 

[Alex]

Maybe you do. I bet more people remember the main-event of Wrestlemania 20 and this moment........

......more than some forgettable title reign of a lifelong midcarder on a B show (as nobody really watches Smackdown).

Ok people remember him winning the belt and standing in the ring with Eddie Guerrero. What did he do after that was memorable (besides losing the belt to Randy Orton

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

So you're willfully saying Benoit himself didn't have an effect on the ratings? Then tell me, why did the countless other weestler's deaths before Benoit (Teat, Eddy) not have nearly the same effect on ratings and business?

Outside of the wrestling fraternity, nobody really cared about the deaths of Test or Eddy. Once the spotlight came on though, every subsequent death attributed to steroid abuse or pain medication addiction was just another blow to wrestling's reputation.

So your point Benoit isn't that big a deal is a murder case that was woefully underreported, which prosecutors now admit was woefully under investigated, and is now just becoming a legitimate story, in 2014?

Sorry, not buying that.

Never said it wasn't a big deal, just in the same way I'm sure you're not indicating that the death of Snuka's girlfriend isn't a big deal. I don't know the degree to which it was reported but Snuka states that he was hurt at the reporting and surely the subsequent case that was meant to result in him paying her family $500,000 and him refusing to do so received some degree of coverage? Maybe the fans just didn't care, it was nothing to do with their viewing.

Asides from this speculation of Benoit driving fans away from wrestling, that really has nothing to do with how a kayfabe match between the two would pan out (especially as Benoit and his family would have to be alive!) and the simple fact is that no booker would ever place a 6 month wonder over a storied career.

 

[Big Sexy]

You can show pictures of two dead guys standing in confetti all you want, it doesn't change the fact that one is horrendously overrated and the other had an atrocious reign as champion. Mark Henry's "Hall of Pain" heel run as a legit challenger and eventual champion was better then anything Benoit ever did in his career. Benoit clearly had the better matches but Henry in his main event run was someone I wanted to watch in spite of his ring work. I haven't even gotten to his fake retirement ceremony which is without a doubt a promo that was 10x better then anything Benoit ever did on the mic. Hall of Pain Mark Henry goes over circa WM20 Benoit.

 

[Con T.]

Asides from this speculation of Benoit driving fans away from wrestling,

Speculation that seemingly (and I will admit, there is a seemingly to this) are backed by numbers and common sense.

that really has nothing to do with how a kayfabe match between the two would pan out (especially as Benoit and his family would have to be alive!) and the simple fact is that no booker would ever place a 6 month wonder over a storied career.

Couple things;

A. Mentioning the Benoit case was directed squarely at the arguments (and there were many) that Benoit's legacy as a wrestler is better than Henry's. And all I'm saying is Benoit's legacy includes the double murder suicide.

So I'm really not getting how his legacy is better.

B. of course a booker would book a six month wonder over "stories career"! It happens all of the time. Shit, it happened to Benoit quite a lot. Benoit's storied career, for the vast majority, is being a great mid card wrestler, who made his opponent look great, and usually losing.

So if that's Benoit's greatest accomplishment, why wouldn't the booker have exactly that happen, with the ass kicking monster?

 

[Dan Severn's Moustache]

Asides from this speculation of Benoit driving fans away from wrestling, that really has nothing to do with how a kayfabe match between the two would pan out (especially as Benoit and his family would have to be alive!) and the simple fact is that no booker would ever place a 6 month wonder over a storied career.

You tell me, you're the one bringing up the consistency argument which doesn't mean anything in a battle between these guys at their primes. And the fact of the matter is, a booker WOULD put Prime Henry over Prime Benoit. Why? Because Benoit is exactly the kind of guy that would be added to the Hall of Pain. He was nothing more than an upper-midcarder in his own right. I'll think I'll choose the guy that was the guy on Smackdown for 6 months than a guy that was overshadowed by HHH, HBK, Evolution and Eugene during his title reign.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I wonder how many people here have made derogatory remarks regarding Bryan being added to the title match at Mania towards Orton and Batista remember what Mania XX was looking like before the title match became a triple threat?