Int Region, Third Round, 15 Minute Iron Man Match: (2) The Rock vs. (7) El Santo

Who wins this match?

  • The Rock

  • El Santo


Results are only viewable after voting.

klunderbunker

Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
This is a third round match in the International Region. It is a 15 Minute Iron Man match held under International Rules, meaning the match is held under the standard rules of the country the match is held in. It will be held at the Arena Mexico in Mexico City, Mexico. Assume one week has passed since the second round match.

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15 Minute Iron Man Match Rules: The match will have a 15 minute time limit and the winner will be the man with the most falls (pinfalls, submissions, count-outs or disqualifications).​

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#2. The Rock

Vs.

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#7. El Santo



Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.
 
El Santo in Mexico City? I have to give this one to Santo. If Punk's hometown advantage is important, then El Santo wrestling in Mexico City is nearly unfair for The Rock. And even if Rocky has some falls in this match, El Santo's going to end up with more based on his style of wrestling.

How important is this advantage for El Santo? He was given a state funeral in Mexico and has numerous statues erected in his honor. And movies? Rock may have made more money, but he hasn't made as many as Santo. And to put the cherry on top of this sundae, El Santo's NEVER lost a gimmick match in Mexico City. That's a career that spans FIVE decades.

Rock is one of the greatest in my generation, but not one of the greatest of all time like El Santo is. And in Mexico City, where the elevation is near 7000 feet will be a factor, because it's something that will affect Rock when it comes to longevity and keeping up with Santo in the ring.

Santo wins this in what will be the biggest wrestling match in Mexican history.

Ole!
 
Await everyone that argues Punk in Chicago is the same as Santo in Mexico.

Anyways, bye Rocky! El Santo in his hometown as Lariat said, only means one thing. He's winning and there's nothing you can do about it. I see it being an interesting match, that ends up 1-1 at the end of the 15 minutes, with El Santo winning in overtime, becoming the hero.

Santo wins, and there's nothing you can do about it.
 
Omg Mexico City lololol. Wow what a bracket buster, there is absolutely no way Rock goes over the sole remaining and most beloved luchador in lucha libre history bang smack in the middle of Mexico.

Jesus what a horrific draw for Rocky. If the last 16 is in Mexico too, Santo's going to the KotR finals. No way Sting or Angle goes over him here either.
 
I didn't think there was any way I could vote Rock out until at least the semis. I'm still not convinced but dear God, the absolute worse draw for him here.

Who would you vote for to take El Santo in Mexico city out of everybody left? Few if anybody earns that decree. If Rock has to leave here, he has no shame. He'd beat the guy anywhere else in the world as far as I'm concerned.
 
The crowd will give The Saint extra energy and confidence, plus he is a better technical wrestler. He wins 2 falls to 0 in front of his countrymen.
 
The Rock wins anywhere else, but I have to agree not in Mexico city. Punk is going to win in Chicago so that being said I think El Santo has to win here in still a close one.
 
I didn't think there was any way I could vote Rock out until at least the semis. I'm still not convinced but dear God, the absolute worse draw for him here.

Who would you vote for to take El Santo in Mexico city out of everybody left? Few if anybody earns that decree. If Rock has to leave here, he has no shame. He'd beat the guy anywhere else in the world as far as I'm concerned.

Have to agree with this, nearly anywhere else and I believe Rock would be walking out of this and into the next round. But Mexico, Rocky don't even bother unpacking anything other than ring gear because you will just be repacking it once this match is over.

Thought Rock would be one of the last left in this thing, but hey sometimes the draw is against you and Rocky is gone, just like his partner in the Rock n Sock connection. Bad draw = loss
 
*Looks at location* :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

I'm not going to be a hypocrite and claim that's the reason why Santo wins this match, I don't need to. Santo was such a big star that he'd very likely beat Rock in the States as well. Not only that, but his movies didn't suck. Santo was not only the top draw of the lucha libre world, but he was it's most successful crossover star. Rock is probably the most successful wrestler turned actor in the States, but he stayed away from the squared circle for almost a decade before he came back - and even now he works a limited schedule. El Santo would kick Blue Demon's ass on the big screen then come back and do it again in the squared circle.

So lets run this down...

Santo was the biggest wrestling star in his country - Rock was a big star too; but he wasn't as big as Hogan or Austin.

Point Santo

Santo was the biggest crossover movie star in the history of the Mexican movie industry; he has movies that received critical acclaim not only in Mexico but the States as well - Has the Rock ever starred in a movie that hasn't been panned by critics? Tooth Fairy? Doom? Walking Tall?

I think it's a fair point to Santo

Santo managed to be a big movie star, while still being a huge draw in the wrestling world - The Rock wasn't relevant in pro wrestling for almost 10 years until he came back.

Point Santo

Turrible, turrible draw for the Rock, as last years winner packs it in earlier than expected. Santo FTW.
 
Ok. As much as the comments so far have been pro Santo, the silent majority of idiots will no doubt insure a Rock win. I hope not, but in order to prevent this, anyone voting on this match should consider two things.

1) Every single fight of Santo's career (which usually ended in a win for him) were multiple falls matches.

2) This match is in Mexico City, where Santo is king.

There is no way Santo would lose here.
 
People tend to let Santo coast purely on popularity in this tournament instead of asking the questions we do about others wrestlers. Why was he over? Who did he beat? What did he do in the ring? What titles did he win? Unlike some of the other country legends I have never been able to find something that particularly impressed me about Santo as a wrestler. If someone can show me an example of someone from the US that was actually a big deal that i have heard of coming in to Mexico and losing to him then I would consider him. But unlike a Rikidozan in Japan I can't find that example. It seems like people are too content with assuming to get that popular he must have done a lot of things he didn't do as far as i can tell such as rarely lose as a singles wrestler, win a heavyweight title, beat big names around the world, be taller than 5 10 etc.
 
First of all no this isn't like Punk in Chicago and please go to the Shawn thread and read KB's posts.

This however is...ouch! A horrible draw for Rocky. I still think people might get sentimental and vote for him but by all means. El Santo gets this.


Good god what a draw! Somebody hates The Rock.
 
Hold on, hold on - Santo was a great wrestler but he was a cruiserweight, the Rock is a great heavyweight and great heavyweights defeat great cruiserweights no matter where the bout takes place!
 
FitFinlay4Life said:
Santo was a great wrestler but he was a cruiserweight, the Rock is a great heavyweight and great heavyweights defeat great cruiserweights no matter where the bout takes place!

I don't know about that one. If that was true, then the superheavyweights would win all the time, but Cena and Hogan will beat Show and André any day of the week. Sheamus has at least 50lbs on Yoshi Tatsu and he got his ass handed to him in a real fight. Technique > size
 
I don't know about that one. If that was true, then the superheavyweights would win all the time, but Cena and Hogan will beat Show and André any day of the week. Sheamus has at least 50lbs on Yoshi Tatsu and he got his ass handed to him in a real fight. Technique > size

Cena and Hogan are both heavyweights and the Show and Andre you are talking about were overweights and do you really think that Yoshi would ever be booked to go over Sheamus clean? Plus, my statement was that the GREATEST heavyweights would defeat the GREATEST cruiserweights.
 
People tend to let Santo coast purely on popularity in this tournament instead of asking the questions we do about others wrestlers. Why was he over? Who did he beat? What did he do in the ring? What titles did he win? Unlike some of the other country legends I have never been able to find something that particularly impressed me about Santo as a wrestler. If someone can show me an example of someone from the US that was actually a big deal that i have heard of coming in to Mexico and losing to him then I would consider him. But unlike a Rikidozan in Japan I can't find that example. It seems like people are too content with assuming to get that popular he must have done a lot of things he didn't do as far as i can tell such as rarely lose as a singles wrestler, win a heavyweight title, beat big names around the world, be taller than 5 10 etc.

Santo didn't win heavyweight titles because they didn't really exist in Mexico. The NWA weight division titles he did win were won against foreign wrestlers, visiting Mexico, including Americans. Did he fight Lou Thesz? No, the Mexican promotions didn't need him to draw as they had proper stars of their own. He did beat Gory Guerrero and Eddie Graham in Houston though, so he has history against the big names of the day.

Luchadors should be judged by the masks they take off other wrestlers as this is the big honour item in a lengthy feud. As a comparison, major 90s star Konnan has won two masks, Mil Masceras, a man who is in the WWE hall of fame, has won 7. Santo has 16. He hardly ever lost matches, and I'm

As for his size, well he was 5'10" and 210lbs, barely smaller than Chris Jericho who has had no trouble beating the Rock due to his size.

The main reason he was popular is two fold. Firstly, he hardly ever lost and could connect with an audience. His films were probably the first wrestling cross over and you don't get to do that unless you're already popular. I can buy a santo movie on DvD in HMV here, I cannot buy the Marine 3.

The second reason, as with Rikidozan is precisely because he did beat fleeing wrestlers. They turned him face in 1962, because the crowd loved him for representing Mexico in tournaments and to win NWA weight division titles.

I hope this has helped.
 
Santo didn't win heavyweight titles because they didn't really exist in Mexico. The NWA weight division titles he did win were won against foreign wrestlers, visiting Mexico, including Americans. Did he fight Lou Thesz? No, the Mexican promotions didn't need him to draw as they had proper stars of their own. He did beat Gory Guerrero and Eddie Graham in Houston though, so he has history against the big names of the day.

Not needing someone works both ways. If Santo really was a draw then why didn't anyone else in the world seem to attempt to use him as one except Mexico North? He is untested against true top guys which the Rock undoubtedly is. Gory was a 27 seed in this tournament, did Eddie Graham even get a vote?

Luchadors should be judged by the masks they take off other wrestlers as this is the big honour item in a lengthy feud. As a comparison, major 90s star Konnan has won two masks, Mil Masceras, a man who is in the WWE hall of fame, has won 7. Santo has 16. He hardly ever lost matches, and I'm

I'm what ? Making this last part up? Because as far as I can tell he was a heel for a long time as you allude to later and once he changed over due to fortuitous marketing efforts among other thing he did spend significant time putting over up and coming wrestlers before going into a period where he worked mostly tag matches. I know you Brits love to think being a legend that is a pop culture hit who wins tag matches makes someone a great singles wrestler but that isn't really the case. It seems like arguably his most famous singles match is a loss to Blue Demon, a 16 seed in this tournament. The Rock is a 2 seed.

This isn't a luchas de apuestas though. Even if it was, the Rock doesn't have a mask or hair. I am not saying those accomplishments aren't meaningful in his career, just that they have fuck all to do with who wins this match.

As for his size, well he was 5'10" and 210lbs, barely smaller than Chris Jericho who has had no trouble beating the Rock due to his size.

Rock still has more victories than Jericho does in their one on one matches and to say Jericho had no trouble in his wins is one hell of a whopper. Jericho also never got the Rock to submit. If the Rock isn't going to submit in less than 15 minutes (and he isn't) then we are supposed to believe that a top rope headbutt is going to beat the Rock in less than 15 minutes. Call me crazy but I think the Rock Bottom is the most believable move to score a pinfall quickly enough to win this match.

The main reason he was popular is two fold. Firstly, he hardly ever lost and could connect with an audience. His films were probably the first wrestling cross over and you don't get to do that unless you're already popular. I can buy a santo movie on DvD in HMV here, I cannot buy the Marine 3.

I am sure you can buy the Rock's movies, why should I care that you can't buy the movies of a guy that the Rock soundly defeated? What relevance does being in movies really have to this match here? His claim to fame is of little help here in the ring IMO. Not knocking his pop culture accomplishments, just questioning how that helps him win a 15 minute Iron man match vs a larger opponent that is a worldwide star.

The second reason, as with Rikidozan is precisely because he did beat fleeing wrestlers. They turned him face in 1962, because the crowd loved him for representing Mexico in tournaments and to win NWA weight division titles.

What do you mean by fleeing wrestlers? Care to name names? Rikidozan beat Thesz multiple times including wins both in and out of his home region.

NWA World Welterweight days reigned: Blue Demon 2197, Gory Guerrero 803, Santo 639. Santo won the title then held it for around a year before dropping it to American born Jack O'brien in Mexico city who then held the belt for three years. Later Santo got the belt back by beating some mexican I have never heard of and then held the belt for a little less than a year again before losing it to Blue Demon, who then held it for 7 years. Santo is 7th all-time in the NWA middleweight days reigned significantly far behind several notable Mexican wrestlers. Even though he did have a lengthy reign with that belt, the person he lost it to had a longer reign. It appears once again popularity over actual in-ring accomplishments for the Saint.

I hope this has helped.

It has convinced me that my assumptions about this guy are true, so that is something I guess.
 
FitFinlay4Life said:
Cena and Hogan are both heavyweights and the Show and Andre you are talking about were overweights and do you really think that Yoshi would ever be booked to go over Sheamus clean? Plus, my statement was that the GREATEST heavyweights would defeat the GREATEST cruiserweights.

So you started from a legit standpoint, with the weight argument, then switch over to kayfabe when it fits? Okay, I can dig it. Let's go kayfabe.

Then, the weight has absolutely no bearing on the argument. In kayfabe terms, whoever creative decides will be better for business, gets pushed. Santo was over a shit, that can't hurt his chances of winning.
 
Not needing someone works both ways. If Santo really was a draw then why didn't anyone else in the world seem to attempt to use him as one except Mexico North? He is untested against true top guys which the Rock undoubtedly is. Gory was a 27 seed in this tournament, did Eddie Graham even get a vote?

Not true at all. Santo worked the States, and he worked Japan. He had matches with the likes of Antonio Inoki and Verne Gagne, so other countries weren't hesitant about using his star power to their advantage.

I'm what ? Making this last part up? Because as far as I can tell he was a heel for a long time as you allude to later and once he changed over due to fortuitous marketing efforts among other thing he did spend significant time putting over up and coming wrestlers before going into a period where he worked mostly tag matches. I know you Brits love to think being a legend that is a pop culture hit who wins tag matches makes someone a great singles wrestler but that isn't really the case. It seems like arguably his most famous singles match is a loss to Blue Demon, a 16 seed in this tournament. The Rock is a 2 seed.

Rock was a heel for an extended period before he became a face. And once he did and was on top, that's when the momentum of the revenue generated by the Attitude Era started to cease. Then it stagnated and started to decline. Then Rock left for Hollywood. Santo - regardless of what he did or became - remained a large star and influential figure in the sport until his death.

Seeding is irrelevant, because no one on this site is a true "expert." Region and location are irrelevant, because they promote biased assumptions; which have been rampant this year. The fact that Demon was a 16th seed says how underrated he is.

This isn't a luchas de apuestas though. Even if it was, the Rock doesn't have a mask or hair. I am not saying those accomplishments aren't meaningful in his career, just that they have fuck all to do with who wins this match.

And its not WWE either. So that mindset works both ways. What is fact is that Santo was a bigger star than the Rock. He drew more people to the sport, was a bigger crossover name in movies, and he remained relevant for far longer.

Not knocking his pop culture accomplishments, just questioning how that helps him win a 15 minute Iron man match vs a larger opponent that is a worldwide star.

Rock is a worldwide star because WWE is a worldwide promotion... but it wasn't 13 years ago when the Rock was in his prime and wasn't making Hollywood movies.

The Rock of 2000 would most surely job to the El Santo of the 50's and 60's. Why? Because Santo was the bigger star when comparing primes.

What do you mean by fleeing wrestlers? Care to name names? Rikidozan beat Thesz multiple times including wins both in and out of his home region.

Rikidozan drew Thesz more times than either of them won; the same can be said of Santo when he faced off against big names like Antonio Inoki.

NWA World Welterweight days reigned: Blue Demon 2197, Gory Guerrero 803, Santo 639. Santo won the title then held it for around a year before dropping it to American born Jack O'brien in Mexico city who then held the belt for three years. Later Santo got the belt back by beating some mexican I have never heard of and then held the belt for a little less than a year again before losing it to Blue Demon, who then held it for 7 years. Santo is 7th all-time in the NWA middleweight days reigned significantly far behind several notable Mexican wrestlers. Even though he did have a lengthy reign with that belt, the person he lost it to had a longer reign. It appears once again popularity over actual in-ring accomplishments for the Saint.

The Rock is an 8 time WWE champion, but he's held the title for a combined 360 days. He's 13th on a list that includes several other stars that weren't in his popularity league. The whole argument of who held what for how long is irrelevant here. The point is that Santo was the biggest star in a major nation of pro wrestling. The Rock wasn't the biggest star in the States. In a face vs face dream match like this, Santo would most surely advance.

It has convinced me that my assumptions about this guy are true, so that is something I guess.

Just about every assumption that you've made about Santo, I can make about the Rock...

The Rock is only a world wide star because WWE is a worldwide brand.

The Rock has held the WWE title less than weaker draws like Bret and Shawn so he's inferior.

The Rock left the WWE when ratings and revenue began to drop and went to Hollywood.

None of the movies that Rock has starred in have garnered any critical acclaim, so I guess that makes him a flop of a movie star.

See, I can make assumptions too but they don't hold that much water. Anyone being on the fence with this match should consider the following... as good as the Rock was, could he ever be considered the greatest wrestling star of his country? No, he couldn't. Santo was... and not only as a wrestler, but a crossover star too. That's why he would win.
 
Not needing someone works both ways. If Santo really was a draw then why didn't anyone else in the world seem to attempt to use him as one except Mexico North? He is untested against true top guys which the Rock undoubtedly is. Gory was a 27 seed in this tournament, did Eddie Graham even get a vote?

The seeding in this tournament is irrelevant. It was voted on by people all aged under 35, there's obviously going to be a bias against territories wrestlers. Fact of life. Eddie Graham was one of the biggest names of his day, particularly in the south where Santo wrestled.

I'm what ? Making this last part up? Because as far as I can tell he was a heel for a long time as you allude to later and once he changed over due to fortuitous marketing efforts among other thing he did spend significant time putting over up and coming wrestlers before going into a period where he worked mostly tag matches. I know you Brits love to think being a legend that is a pop culture hit who wins tag matches makes someone a great singles wrestler but that isn't really the case. It seems like arguably his most famous singles match is a loss to Blue Demon, a 16 seed in this tournament. The Rock is a 2 seed.

Apologies, I'm in Ireland and literally phoning this in. He never lost. Blue Demon is pretty much the only wrestler that ever beat him decisively in Mexico. There's millions of videos of Santo's matches on a YouTube channel called Lucha Cafe or something. If you can find one where he loses, I'd be surprised.

Since when does being a heel mean you don't win anyway? Ric Flair made a pretty decent career out of being a heel. He was a rudo, which is a heel, but also reflects the brawling style he uses, which Santo, by no means a technician employed. When he was fighting foreigners, they were still cheering him.

When he turned technico in 1962, he had been wrestling for 27 years and was on the wane. He remained popular and successful for a bit before becoming predominantly a tags wrestler.

This isn't a luchas de apuestas though. Even if it was, the Rock doesn't have a mask or hair. I am not saying those accomplishments aren't meaningful in his career, just that they have fuck all to do with who wins this match.

It's not a heavyweight title fight either, so if Santo's record in the most important types of match in Mexico is being ignored, so should The Rock's in the USA.


Rock still has more victories than Jericho does in their one on one matches and to say Jericho had no trouble in his wins is one hell of a whopper. Jericho also never got the Rock to submit. If the Rock isn't going to submit in less than 15 minutes (and he isn't) then we are supposed to believe that a top rope headbutt is going to beat the Rock in less than 15 minutes. Call me crazy but I think the Rock Bottom is the most believable move to score a pinfall quickly enough to win this match

But his difficulty in winning wasn't in his size, was it? Lots of smaller wrestlers wrestled The Rock, with varying success, but you'd never say that he out powered them significantly or anything like that.


I am sure you can buy the Rock's movies, why should I care that you can't buy the movies of a guy that the Rock soundly defeated? What relevance does being in movies really have to this match here? His claim to fame is of little help here in the ring IMO. Not knocking his pop culture accomplishments, just questioning how that helps him win a 15 minute Iron man match vs a larger opponent that is a worldwide star.

You asked why he was popular, I told you.

What do you mean by fleeing wrestlers? Care to name names? Rikidozan beat Thesz multiple times including wins both in and out of his home region.

Foreign. He won one of his titles off a Chinese wrestler called Sugi Situ. He won the NWA Welterweight title after beating a whole host of foreign wrestlers, including an American, I'll have the name for you later as it escapes me at the moment, Red something, then he beat a Bulgarian called Pete Pancov. Like I said, habit of beating foreigners.

NWA World Welterweight days reigned: Blue Demon 2197, Gory Guerrero 803, Santo 639. Santo won the title then held it for around a year before dropping it to American born Jack O'brien in Mexico city who then held the belt for three years. Later Santo got the belt back by beating some mexican I have never heard of and then held the belt for a little less than a year again before losing it to Blue Demon, who then held it for 7 years. Santo is 7th all-time in the NWA middleweight days reigned significantly far behind several notable Mexican wrestlers. Even though he did have a lengthy reign with that belt, the person he lost it to had a longer reign. It appears once again popularity over actual in-ring accomplishments for the Saint.

TITLES DON'T MATTER IN MEXICO. People hold them for years, never defend them and then lose them on a whim. You will find people in Mexico that have been champions of one thing or another for about ten years. It's just not important.
 
Not true at all. Santo worked the States, and he worked Japan. He had matches with the likes of Antonio Inoki and Verne Gagne, so other countries weren't hesitant about using his star power to their advantage.

Finally, someone that actually knows a little bit about what they are talking about. Can you link me to some info about the Inoki matches? The only match I have seen record of with Gagne is when Gagne beat him though. Granted Santo was old as dirt then but it isn't helping convince me he can win against such guys. I am assuming he didn't beat Inoki either or you would have mentioned it.

Rock was a heel for an extended period before he became a face. And once he did and was on top, that's when the momentum of the revenue generated by the Attitude Era started to cease. Then it stagnated and started to decline. Then Rock left for Hollywood. Santo - regardless of what he did or became - remained a large star and influential figure in the sport until his death.

Are you really playing the left for hollywood card in a match involving someone that has made over 50 movies?

Seeding is irrelevant, because no one on this site is a true "expert." Region and location are irrelevant, because they promote biased assumptions; which have been rampant this year. The fact that Demon was a 16th seed says how underrated he is.

If you are arguing region and location are irrelevant then I don't see any reason to even consider Santo.

And its not WWE either. So that mindset works both ways. What is fact is that Santo was a bigger star than the Rock. He drew more people to the sport, was a bigger crossover name in movies, and he remained relevant for far longer.

I don't think Santo was a bigger star in ring than the Rock. Santos movies appear to be pretty much shit. Is there something I am missing there?

Rock is a worldwide star because WWE is a worldwide promotion... but it wasn't 13 years ago when the Rock was in his prime and wasn't making Hollywood movies.

The Rock of 2000 would most surely job to the El Santo of the 50's and 60's. Why? Because Santo was the bigger star when comparing primes.

When was this Santo prime? Who was he defeating in his prime based on all this star power he had? Why does Santo get credit for the movie making popularity boost but Rock doesn't? Are you really suggesting a prime Rock jobs to a 43-53 year old in the 60s?

The Rock is an 8 time WWE champion, but he's held the title for a combined 360 days. He's 13th on a list that includes several other stars that weren't in his popularity league. The whole argument of who held what for how long is irrelevant here. The point is that Santo was the biggest star in a major nation of pro wrestling. The Rock wasn't the biggest star in the States. In a face vs face dream match like this, Santo would most surely advance.

It is certainly relevant when people are claiming Santo was some unbeatable and dominant force. Yes, Rock didn't hold the belt all that long but he was dealing with a lot more competition than Santo was. Dealing with worldwide competition is a lot more impressive than dealing with regional only and second tier at best guys.

See, I can make assumptions too but they don't hold that much water. Anyone being on the fence with this match should consider the following... as good as the Rock was, could he ever be considered the greatest wrestling star of his country? No, he couldn't. Santo was... and not only as a wrestler, but a crossover star too. That's why he would win.

This is some bullshit. So now the best "wrestling" star of any particular country automatically goes over anyone from the US that isn't Hulk Hogan? Big Daddy over Austin? :lmao: But its in Manchester bro:shrug:
 
The seeding in this tournament is irrelevant. It was voted on by people all aged under 35, there's obviously going to be a bias against territories wrestlers. Fact of life. Eddie Graham was one of the biggest names of his day, particularly in the south where Santo wrestled.

I'd almost buy into that if you weren't someone that had a vote and you didn't even put him in your top 128, now you want me to believe this is a comparable victory to a guy that you put 22. Not sure I am buying it. Another interesting thing about your list, according to it Santo isn't the greatest Mexican wrestler.

Foreign. He won one of his titles off a Chinese wrestler called Sugi Situ. He won the NWA Welterweight title after beating a whole host of foreign wrestlers, including an American, I'll have the name for you later as it escapes me at the moment, Red something, then he beat a Bulgarian called Pete Pancov. Like I said, habit of beating foreigners.

That's great. I fully believe he would trounce Brooklyn Brawler. Now if we can get to some more relevant foreigners that might be a little more interesting. The Rock is not an ordinary foreigner.

TITLES DON'T MATTER IN MEXICO.

Then why did you tell me he was beloved for winning them?
 
Finally, someone that actually knows a little bit about what they are talking about. Can you link me to some info about the Inoki matches? The only match I have seen record of with Gagne is when Gagne beat him though. Granted Santo was old as dirt then but it isn't helping convince me he can win against such guys. I am assuming he didn't beat Inoki either or you would have mentioned it.

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=77790

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=77782

He didn't win, but the fact that he was facing off against Japan's best at the time speaks volumes about his star power.

Are you really playing the left for hollywood card in a match involving someone that has made over 50 movies?

The difference being that Santo's movies were actually worked into lucha kayfabe. One of the movies had a plot like "Blue Demon gets abducted by terrorists during a wrestling match, and Santo goes off to kick ass." At the end of the film they complete their match as if the movie was part of the storyline.

If you are arguing region and location are irrelevant then I don't see any reason to even consider Santo.

Because he was the bigger quality star as both a wrestler and actor, and was relevant for much longer.

I don't think Santo was a bigger star in ring than the Rock. Santos movies appear to be pretty much shit. Is there something I am missing there?

If Mexico had a small population, or if lucha wasn't really that popular, you'd have a sound argument. If the Rock has to use the WWE machine as a crutch to be considered better, then is he really? Thanks to that, Kofi Kingston is a world wide star, but is he better than Santo? Of course not.

And his movies weren't shit. They were the stable of the genre for 20 years, and some have gotten acclaim in the States.

When was this Santo prime? Who was he defeating in his prime based on all this star power he had? Why does Santo get credit for the movie making popularity boost but Rock doesn't? Are you really suggesting a prime Rock jobs to a 43-53 year old in the 60s?

Considering that the plots of lucha movies were part of the "kayfabe story" of some feuds, yes, Santo should get credit for being a popular star in that aspect. And I understand that Hollywood is a separate entity from WWE, but doesn't WWE use the fact that their stars get movie roles to enhance feuds? So shouldn't the Rock as a crossover star basically be the same as what Santo did? And if so, Santo was undoubtedly the more successful of the two.

It is certainly relevant when people are claiming Santo was some unbeatable and dominant force. Yes, Rock didn't hold the belt all that long but he was dealing with a lot more competition than Santo was. Dealing with worldwide competition is a lot more impressive than dealing with regional only and second tier at best guys.

What worldwide competition? At that time WWE was a national promotion with national stars, just like Santo was also a national star working with a national promotion. And as a national star and icon, he was way more popular as the Rock.

This is some bullshit. So now the best "wrestling" star of any particular country automatically goes over anyone from the US that isn't Hulk Hogan? Big Daddy over Austin? :lmao: But its in Manchester bro:shrug:

Are you suggesting that Rock was responsible for WWE's fanbase back in the day? Don't be ridiculous. If Hogan built it, and Austin did an addition, then Rock merely sustained it... and he did such a cracker jack job that WWE plateaued around 2001 and started gradually losing both ratings and revenue a year later. Rock was relevant as a massive star for maybe 6 years... Santo was relevant as a massive star for over 4 decades.

The answer shouldn't be hard. Santo FTW.
 
He didn't win, but the fact that he was facing off against Japan's best at the time speaks volumes about his star power.

It wasn't even the main event and he lost in 4.5 minutes. Sure seems to suggest he might be in trouble vs top stars in a 15 minute Iron Man match. It isn't like a guy that has beat Hogan, Austin and Cena all at WM doesn't have star power himself.
 
The Rock is probably the most charismatic wrestler in the business history, he also is probably in the top 5 greatest AMERICAN wrestlers, he also is a man that has made a transition to Hollywood and has become to some extent a big name.

El Santo on the other is the greatest wrestler tht has stepped a foot in a mexican ring. El Santo IS the biggest wrestler in lucha libre's history. He also is the biggest star that mexican wrestling has produced. He is such a big name that 50 years later TV channels STILL pass his movies.
In fact he was such a star and an amazing wrestler that in his movies if someone didn't lose to him via "la de a caballo", a camel clutch, it was because his opponent wasn't human.
Also El Santo is a reference to this day in all kinds of wrestling (lucha libre, amercian, japanese etc.).

Rock is one of the biggest stars/wrestlers the States has to offer; he is close but he is not on Santo's league.

El enmascarado de plata wins.
 

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