Int Region, SF Subregion, Second Round: (2) Randy Savage vs. (15) Brock Lesnar

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

Ugh. Now this is the prime reason why I hate prime vs prime arguments. Brock Lesnar.

This guy was pushed as a monster who killed everyone in his path. He was pushed as the guy who would dominate WWE for ages. As a result of this, he had a great prime. But guess what happened after that? He left and is now just a footnote in the industry. Yes, I know that he returned to WWE recently amidst a lot of hype, but that does not mean that he is anything but a footnote in the world of wrestling. He was built up great but it ultimately led to nothing. Which means that at the end of the day he means a lot less to the business than Randy Savage.

Savage is someone who is better than Brock in all aspect of pro wrestling. Promo work. Savage. Ring work. This was the guy who was Mr WrestleMania before Shawn Michaels won his first singles belt in the company. Being a draw. Eric Bischoff once claimed in a WCW lockerroom that till that point, Hogan and Savage were the only two people in the locker room who had drawn any significant amount of money at that point. Ratings tanked with Brock as champion. WrestleMania did badly with Brock as champion and that too when the card was stacked with great matches all round.

My vote goes to Savage. Simply put, I do not feel that the prime versus prime argument can be used anywhere and everywhere. This is between a guy who was good, who gave his all to the business and did very well for a number of years and a guy who could have been a big deal but just wasn't and was eventually replaced by guys who were much better talents( Cena, Orton and Batista).

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

It is as Shocky said, unless his opponents have a submission game plan, Brock doesn't lose.


See I played this in my head. Randy Savage and Lesnar at WrestleMania......






Yeah, I just can't see Brock losing. I see him kicking outta the elbow, I see him being taken to the limit. But I see him F-5ing Savage for the 3-count. Brock is a monster and is aggrandized as such. Maybe I don't feel as strongly as some other people on the board about Macho Man n' so in a kayfabe environment...


Lesnar romps on.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Simply put, I do not feel that the prime versus prime argument can be used anywhere and everywhere.

I don't know, I'd say you'd just like to dismiss it when it becomes inconvenient.

Going off on a tangent from my argument - which is in the first post if you want to see it, so scroll up - I'd like to address this idea that Lesnar was a "footnote".

If Lesnar's contribution to the wrestling world was limited to success in amateur wrestling, a year or so tear through the ranks of WWE, a failed shot at football, and some success in Japan, then I might agree. However, Lesnar's not just been doing odd jobs since he left WWE. The hype around him isn't just, "Oh, Brock Lesnar - I remember him; he used to wrestle here." Lesnar was a UFC Heavyweight Champion and, despite retiring on the back of two losses, a hugely successful one at that. Lesnar was an ambassador for professional wrestling. An unwilling ambassador and not necessarily a good ambassador (which they're playing off of now) but an ambassador nonetheless. An ambassador that mowed down a couple legends, main evented pay-per-views and drew great, superior-to-WWE numbers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Lesnar is more significant to the wrestling world than Savage and so should beat him; I'm saying Lesnar would have his way with Randy Savage like Tiger Woods would with the local slag. Savage is more significant, sure, he's one of the most significant professional wrestlers ever, but I don't think it's fair to paint Lesnar as insignificant.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

I don't know, I'd say you'd just like to dismiss it when it becomes inconvenient.

Just so that you may not think otherwise, I do not say that this "prime vs prime" debate should not be used only for Lesnar. There are plenty of examples. Yokozuna is one of them. But I do not really want to get into that as it would mean deviating from the topic.

Brock was pushed because Vince thought that he was someone who would serve the company for a long time. Quite possibly, he was wrong there as well but let us keep that aside for the second. If he had any idea that Brock would be the guy who would leave the business in two years, he would have never invested that hard in Brock. Sure the guy was a one of a kind physical specimen and keeping that in mind, he may have gone over some lower level talent but surely he would not have won over the likes of a Hogan had Vince known that he was disinterested in the business. I think that this is a significant point that people ignore when they talk "prime vs prime." The circumstances in which the prime of the wrestler came about is pretty important to the subject.

That is why I feel that having known everything about Lesnar and knowing how unreliable he is, no booker would be willing to book him over Savage, a guy who was not only dedicated to the business but also great at it.

As for arguing who is more significant than whom, I would still say that Savage was much more significant than Lesnar. Why? Because even though he has dominated UFC and come back Lesnar remains a special attraction, the attractiveness of which fades with time, while Savage is the man for all seasons. In fact, Lesnar himself is that sort of guy whose significance fades with time. Once you get used to the fact that he is physically unique, he has little else to bring to the table.

Let us say that if each guy were to spend 7 years in the WWE or any other company, I would think that Savage would have the better record. Brock may win the first few times but Savage would be the guy who would eventually win more because he is the better talent.

 

[justinsayne]

Please people, Lesnar destroyed Hogan, Rock, & Taker in the span of 3 months. I can't think of too many other guys that have ever done that. Lets not forget Stone Cold, the "toughest SOB in the business", quit because he didn't want to step in the ring with Lesnar. Brock Lesnar is one of the most dominant forces to ever enter the world of professional wrestling. Brock tears Savage apart & leaves him a bloody mess in the ring, Brock takes this with Macho Man blood smeared across his chest & moves on to the next round.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Please people, Lesnar destroyed Hogan, Rock, & Taker in the span of 3 months. I can't think of too many other guys that have ever done that. Lets not forget Stone Cold, the "toughest SOB in the business", quit because he didn't want to step in the ring with Lesnar.

You say that as if Austin was scared of Lesnar. Creative differences between management and Austin, Brock wasn't even a factor.

And please, that most dominant crock of shit is given to every 'monster'.

 

[Uncle Sam]

And please, that most dominant crock of shit is given to every 'monster'.

But for Brock, it was true. He wasn't built up to be unstoppable in order to make The Rock look great when he beat him. He was built up to be unstoppable, full stop. Whereas your run of the mill monster is fed, say, Rey Mysterio, Lesnar was fed the King of the Ring, the Royal Rumble and the main event of WrestleMania. Whereas your run of the mill monster eventually goes down to The Rock, Undertaker or Hulk Hogan, Lesnar left them all bloody messes.

As has been pointed out, Lesnar has more in common with The Ultimate Warrior than Lord Tensai. Umaga never wiped Hulk Hogan's blood across his chest.

 

[Danger Burger]

I get so awfully confused by the precepts of this tounament! In a fight, yup, lesnar is stronger, but often these arguments are based on career spanning achievments, popularity, ability to consistantly perform, influence on the business etc and macho madness reigns supreme there! Theres no chance in hell Lesnar could beat the macho man Randy Savage for the simple reason that the universe wouldnt allow it!!


Ultimately, there is nothing Lesnar could do to beat Macho man at his prime, just as he is here...
[YOUTUBE]Bifmj1O3D24[/YOUTUBE]
Unless he had an axe...?

 

[Born To Fly]

This one is extremely close. Even though Randy Savage was a fantastic wrestler, Brock Lesnar is an animal. Rarely can I say I've been taken aback at somebody's athleticism in the ring, but Lesnar did that. I can't see a flying elbow putting Lesnar down for the count. Savage would hit one, only get a two count, go up for another, only get a two count and then on his third try, Lesnar would catch him, throw him on his back and nail him with an F5. 1-2-3. Lesnar wins.

 

[nightmare]

People vote in this thing for many different reasons, but 2 things that most people seem to rely on as deciding factors are mic skill and #of titles won.


Here is the problem. Mic skill doesnt allow you to incapacitate your opponent, nor does it get you a 3 count. Titles are great and a huge accomplishment. Unfortunately having more belts doesnt mean your stronger than the other guy. By the logic of 'x is better at cutting promos than y and y has less title reigns so x wins' then Ric Flair would walk all over 95% of this tournament without breaking a sweat.


I choose to vote on ability to kick the other guys ass. Why? Because it makes sense to me, as well as many others. What are you guys going to base your vote on next- the size of bank accounts? I guess McMahon should beat Hogan and Taker in a 3 way then huh? Jesus.


Brock may not be as highly regarded as Savage for his impression on the wrestling world and he may not have had as many\longer title runs; but he would destroy him in the ring. Savage has never won against someone like Lesnar. I think the closest person he fought was Show and that didnt turn out so good for Savage. Brock is a beast. He isnt the best ever, im not saying that, but he would have no problem with Savage. I dont see a sneaky roll up or an elbow drop putting Brock down for the count here. Savage would give it a good run and will not go down without a fight, but Brock is too much for Savage.

 

[steve_smith]

Let's look at it this way.


If Brock was around in Macho's era, he would have been booked as the unstoppable heel. He would of had a manager like Heenan or even Dibiase (a la Undertaker). Guess where this ends..................... Hulkamania baby.

If Macho was around during Brock's era, he's still a face of the company. No matter what era you put him in ...."the cream rises to the top." Dig it! Oh Yeah!

Believe me Macho Man will always be booked to defeat monster heel Brock Lesnar............... it's how the business works. Macho Man was more mainstream back then than Cena is now....... and he was the #2 guy. The only way Brock goes over Mach Man is if Brock is the face and, quite frankly, Brock is too ugly and lacks the charisma needed to be a face over the Macho Man.

Not to mention, Savage won the biggest tournament of all at WM4 for the title.

 

[steve_smith]

People vote in this thing for many different reasons, but 2 things that most people seem to rely on as deciding factors are mic skill and #of titles won.


Here is the problem. Mic skill doesnt allow you to incapacitate your opponent, nor does it get you a 3 count. Titles are great and a huge accomplishment. Unfortunately having more belts doesnt mean your stronger than the other guy. By the logic of 'x is better at cutting promos than y and y has less title reigns so x wins' then Ric Flair would walk all over 95% of this tournament without breaking a sweat.


I choose to vote on ability to kick the other guys ass. Why? Because it makes sense to me, as well as many others. What are you guys going to base your vote on next- the size of bank accounts? I guess McMahon should beat Hogan and Taker in a 3 way then huh? Jesus.


Brock may not be as highly regarded as Savage for his impression on the wrestling world and he may not have had as many\longer title runs; but he would destroy him in the ring. Savage has never won against someone like Lesnar. I think the closest person he fought was Show and that didnt turn out so good for Savage. Brock is a beast. He isnt the best ever, im not saying that, but he would have no problem with Savage. I dont see a sneaky roll up or an elbow drop putting Brock down for the count here. Savage would give it a good run and will not go down without a fight, but Brock is too much for Savage.

The ability to "kick someone's ass" is one of the least important factors that determines who is successful at pro wrestling. Otherwise, instead of Hulkamania we would of had Hakumania in the 80s.

Every match Macho is in is gold. Why would anyone take him out of the tournament this early. He is 10x more entertaining than Brock, can tell a 20-30 minute edge of your seat story in the ring, and was more of a household name. Therefore he goes over.

 

[nightmare]

The ability to "kick someone's ass" is one of the least important factors that determines who is successful at pro wrestling. Otherwise, instead of Hulkamania we would of had Hakumania in the 80s.

Every match Macho is in is gold. Why would anyone take him out of the tournament this early. He is 10x more entertaining than Brock, can tell a 20-30 minute edge of your seat story in the ring, and was more of a household name. Therefore he goes over.

So by your logic.... Santino should win the tournament because he is more entertaining? Or maybe Jim Ross because he can tell a great story? Mr. Clean and Mrs. Butterworth are household names so they should be dominating the Tag Title scene right?

It is a combination of things that help make a star, but ability to beat your opponent is a big factor. Mic skill helps but isnt a big factor to who beats who. Sting didnt talk for a long time- he was intimidating as hell and beat up the entire damn NWO.

Believe me Macho Man will always be booked to defeat monster heel Brock Lesnar............... it's how the business works. Macho Man was more mainstream back then than Cena is now....... and he was the #2 guy. The only way Brock goes over Mach Man is if Brock is the face and, quite frankly, Brock is too ugly and lacks the charisma needed to be a face over the Macho Man.

Wrestling usually works like this. Heel shows up, sucks on mic(mostly) and has evil manager do the talking. Heel beats up alot of guys becoming a threat. Match buildup to a heel vs face scenario where people think the face may be in danger. Face beats heel and saves the day.


Well Lesnar had Heyman so we are right on track there. He destroyed people week in and week out- yup, still on track. Then what happened? The formula changed in his case didnt it.


The monster type heels back then were nothing compared to what Brock Lesnar has shown us. Sure some were big\intimidating, some were strong and some had the tools to take out the best- but Brock has all of those. Brock took out the top guys in his era despite him being a heel. Hogan, Rock, Taker, etc. He not only won, but put a beating on the 'unstoppable' faces of the company. Cena is the big star now and he didnt beat Rock (who is a shell of his former self), nor will he beat Lesnar. The monster heel Lesnar has made a career out of beating the top faces in the company. How would Lesnar beating Savage be any different? It may have been different back in the day and mostly true now, but Lesnar has been the exception to that rule of a dominant heel losing to a superstar face.

Lesnar wins.

 

[Bernkastel]

Little known fact: Brock Lesnar actually overtook Kane as my favorite wrestler during the span of 2003 and 2004. Why? Because he was a fucking monster who destroyed absolutely everyone in his path. He was 'rip the steel door off the hinges' Kane circa 1997.

Not only that but the man had legitament skills as well; even if he didn't go to the UFC he would still be one of the baddest motherfuckers to ever step foot in the business. Brock didn't just beat his opponents, he flat out destroyed them. I can't think of many people that have left the likes of Undartaker and Hogan in pools of their own blood.

Last year Brock beat out Shawn fucking Michaels in one of final rounds; that should say something. I don't think that Savage would have a chance here. Any and all simulations to this match in my head are telling that Brock would go over.

 

[BestInTheWorld5]

Wow what a match. Savage is one of the best ever but i got to go with Lesnar. Who has ever dominated in a 2 yr span like he did. He literally beat everyone. He has the size speed power athleticism to beat anyone. This is gonna be a long match that i think ultimately is won with an F5.

 

[Tastycles]

Any and all simulations to this match in my head are telling that Brock would go over.

Except the situation where the most popular and better wrestler beats the less popular wrestler in 90% of cases.

Something that people seem to be missing is why Lesnar was booked so strong. It had nothing to do with the fact he was good, and everything to do with the fact The Rock and Austin were leaving and they needed a focal point. Lesnar, still though, was never the main man. If he were, they'd have kept him on Raw and put the new title on Smackdown.

Lesnar was in the right place at the right time and was able to take the reigns because there was nobody else to do so. Savage was given a run as World Champion when Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant, two of the most popular wrestlers in history were still around. Lesnar, meanwhile, defended his title on Pay Per View against Hardcore Holly. Hardcore Holly. Hardcore Fucking Holly.

 

[Cmills005]

If this type of tournament were to happen I think Lesnar wins. And the reasons to me are simple.

Lesnar would be built as unbeatable (just as he is now). Others in the biz would criticize that he was not around long enough and did not have a true passion for wrestling. Everyone would doubt him etc etc. He wins his first match in a squahes but no one is impressed. No one gives him a shot this round. Then BOOM. He manhandles a top guy. This match would be a similar story to the one told in Lesnar's first match with Hogan.

This really isn't a slight on Savage at all. Love Savage. If this were just a standard match, not in this tournament, I'd go Savage. For this tourney though he just got a bad draw. In fact, him being the sentimental favorite this year fuels me even more to believe that in KAYFAB this would happen. Doesn't the story line tell itself? Following this everyone would suddenly think Lesnar may walk through EVERYONE!

I don't know if that is exactly how everyone looks at this tournament but I try to look at what would make the great stories and what would draw. I think its what makes something like this fresh every year. I would have Lesnar go over in this round and this situation (heavy underdog by seeding) over anyone. It would be a hell of a story. Lesnar does this and he is the most hated man in the tourney and everyone would want to see him fall. If people don't like that style I understand just the way I like to view this tournament!

Vote Lesnar.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

You know I hear this term 'right place righ time' and I think, couldn't we say the same for the Hogans and the Austins?



Here is where Lesnar is superior, Savage was champion when wrestling was at a glorious plateau. People were into it and it was a great time for business.


Fast forward to 30th August 2002, Rock gone, Austin gone, Hunter's grip on the A show;

Enter Brock Lesnar reign.

He took the ball and ran. Ran like Gump. He was fantastic to watch and sold like gold. One of the best ov

 

[justinsayne]

[YOUTUBE]brvmMj5d6Bc[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]JD60Rxw7Ams[/YOUTUBE]

Savage gave everything he had to Warrior & came up short, what makes anyone believe that Savage could beat Brock when he couldn't beat Warrior, who's not anywhere near the competitor that the human wrecking machine that Brock Lesnar is.

With the exception of Goldberg, whom he only faced once, Brock has dominated just about everyone he has stepped in the ring with, it took Big Show a month of beating on & breaking Brocks ribs, & outside interference from Heyman in order to beat Brock Lesnar. Guerrero only beat him after Goldberg jump in speared him & then hit him with a jackhammer (I beleive). Unless Savage has Goldberg or someone to run interference for him I just don't see Savage coming out on top in this one, I really just see this match going a similar route as Brocks match with Hogan...

[youtube]rxTTa_RLP0Y[/youtube]

 

[steve_smith]

[YOUTUBE]brvmMj5d6Bc[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]JD60Rxw7Ams[/YOUTUBE]

Savage gave everything he had to Warrior & came up short, what makes anyone believe that Savage could beat Brock when he couldn't beat Warrior, who's not anywhere near the competitor that the human wrecking machine that Brock Lesnar is.

With the exception of Goldberg, whom he only faced once, Brock has dominated just about everyone he has stepped in the ring with, it took Big Show a month of beating on & breaking Brocks ribs, & outside interference from Heyman in order to beat Brock Lesnar. Guerrero only beat him after Goldberg jump in speared him & then hit him with a jackhammer (I beleive). Unless Savage has Goldberg or someone to run interference for him I just don't see Savage coming out on top in this one, I really just see this match going a similar route as Brocks match with Hogan...

[youtube]rxTTa_RLP0Y[/youtube]

The Ultimate Warrior NEVER lost clean. NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER. He was booked as even more of a beast than Lesnar.

 

[nightmare]

The Ultimate Warrior NEVER lost clean. NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER. He was booked as even more of a beast than Lesnar.

Justinsayne used that to point out that Savage came up short. A countout would be far from the outcome here. If anything Heyman being out there would negate Liz, Sherry or Jimmy Hart from causing an issue.



Warrior has nowhere near the skills Lesnar has so that means Savage is in more trouble here. Alot of trouble. I love Savage and respect his legacy to the sport, but title wins in the Hulkamania era do not make you unbeatable.
Even if we are talking about kayfabe, Lesnar was booked over all the top faces of his time. Kayfabe even says he would go over Savage.


Savage in the bearhug and\or Brock Lock makes it hard to climb to the top for the elbow. Savage has nothing that would keep Brock down, whereas Brock has plenty of options. Brock wins.

 

[The Brain]

I've avoided this one because I think it's a real tough match. I'm interested to see how it turns out. We have a hot commodity that has just returned vs. a legend who recently passed away.

Oh my oh my oh my. I have no idea what to do here.

At the end of the day, I have to go with Savage. I have no idea how he's going to do it, but somehow I can't imagine the F5 beating Randy. Savage will not submit (screw you WCW for having him tap twice inside of five minutes. SCREW YOU) and I just can't picture him losing here. If we're talking about Savage in his prime which is pretty much any time from 1986 through 1989, I do not see a way for Lesnar to stop him. Savage would get beaten beyond any reasonable point of him to survive, but he would either get a rollup or a miracle elbow and pin Lesnar, who would kick out at 3.000000000000001 and promptly chase Savage back to Sarasota, but Savage would win.

I guess this argument has a little more validity since we just saw this exact sceanrio play out against Cena.

As I mentioned in the first round Randy Savage was widely considered the number two guy behind only Hulk Hogan in the 80s. He was even able to get in a full year title reign during the height of Hulkamania. Lesnar was impressive, no doubt. He did however achieve his success as wrestling was starting to lose its popularity as a result of Austin and Rock leaving the business. This really is a close match and I was very close to clicking Lesnar but I'm taking the legendary name that was on top for a much longer period of time.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

I don't consider 2012 to be Lesnar's prime, but I ain't saying he is washed up as well.


Bottom line, if I put it to odds, Savage would win maybe 2 out of 10 times against Lesnar. I had never seen anything like Lesnar on my telly before. Ye i had seen bloody brawlers, but a guy with epic mat skills, built like a tank and moves like a cat. He may be the greatest overall mat wrestler for his size.

 

[cmiller1332]

Savage was the first Face besides Hulk Hogan to walk out of Wrestlemania as world Champion. In fact he was 1 of 3 wrestlers to walk out world champion in the first 9 wrestlemanias. Hogan and Warrior being the other 2. He was the Main guy in the WWE for an entire year while Hogan was there. You have to remember that when Lesnar was world champ WWE was split into 2 shows and he never got to dued with HHH who was a if not the top guy at the time. Not too mention this match up is not even a WWE match. That being said what ever would happen in the WWE goes out the window. Savage went over Rick Flair multiple times in WCW while Flair was consider the best wrestler ever there and was a 4 time world Champion. Everyone is talking about savage being a face and wouldn't use heel tatics to win. Savage was just as good of a heel as he was a face. If Savage was in his prime in the post Attitude era he would have been a tweener not a face. If this was in a WWE ring I would be closer to going with Lesnar but it isn't so I'm going with Randy Savage.

 

[Owen 3:16 says I just stole your Slammy!!]

This would be a close match up between two great wrestlers. Lesnar has the strength to dominate Macho. Brock knows his submissions and will weaken a smaller Savage. Lesnar has powerful strikes and can hurt anyone. Brock is more younger.

Randy Savage might be smaller but is quicker then Lesnar. Savage can use his speed to tire out Lesnar. Savage can use the top rope and dive on Lesnar in and outside of the ring. Savage has the experience with guys that are the same size of Lesnar and came out on top. If Savage is the babyface, expect the fans cheer for him throughout the match. If Macho Man, has Elizabeth on his side, she will keep him motivated.

I think the end of the match would of end with Lesnar hitting the F-5. Savage kicked out of the pin. Lesnar is freaking out and the crowd is getting behind Savage. Savage would make his comeback. Double Axe Handle of the top. Points to the stars, delivers the Elbow Drop. 1-2-3!

Winner: Randy "Macho Man" Savage