In All Of Wrestling, Who Is The Biggest Mark For Him/Herself?

[Jack-Hammer]

At one time or another, labeling a wrestler as being a mark for himself or herself is probably something that could be pinned on just about anyone in wrestling. After all, wrestling is an ego driven business and it's damn near impossible to succeed if you don't have one yourself. A wrestler believing in themselves isn't necessarily what I'm talking about, it's a positive trait to have confidence in your abilities and to believe in one's self, but there always seem to be a few individuals that take it to a different level. Those are the wrestlers who seem to view themselves in any and all things wrestling above EVERYONE else and take issue with anyone who doesn't share that particular view. I don't know if I can name just one, but I'd say that my top two are, in no particular order:

Shane Douglas - To hear Shane Douglas, you'd think he invented the concept of professional wrestling in the first place. Whenever Douglas gives a shoot interview, or really any sort of interview, he simply cannot keep from bashing just about every promoter or promotion he's ever wrestled for whether it's WWE, WCW, TNA or even ECW. Now while he's never actually said this, one gets the feeling that Douglas feels as if there's been some industry wide conspiracy to prevent him from being at the top where he believes he belonged. He also has this near obsession with Ric Flair as being especially responsible for why he wasn't a bigger star while constantly declaring himself better in every way than Flair ever was. One thing that Shane Douglas definitely gets credit for in my eyes is that he may very well be the guy to establish the standard formula we see for shoot interviews in the modern age: he's the hero of his story, he never did or said anything wrong, everyone else had a grudge against him or was jealous, everyone who didn't have his perspective on things is the villain.

Jim Cornette - Jim Cornette was one of the most entertaining managers in the history of the business. The passionate, charismatic, somewhat geeky guy in the cheap suit with a tennis racket was among the most memorable characters in all of wrestling from my childhood days. I don't know when or how it happened exactly but, in the last several years, Jim Cornette has become one miserable, bitter bastard. Cornette has long been someone who'll basically come out and say that he and only he really knows what good wrestling is and how a wrestling company should operate. That's all well and good but the only problem is that Cornette has failed whenever he's been in the position to make those decisions due, in large part, to thinking that wrestling has to be run today like it was 30-40 years ago. As with Shane Douglas, Cornette, in recent years, has gone on rants on just about anyone he views as having done him wrong whether it's WCW, WWE, ROH, TNA, Vince Russo, Vince McMahon, Eric Bischoff or whomever. Earlier this week on his podcast, Cornette goes on a huge rant that really sums up just how bitter he's become with topics including Vince's biggest flaw, the biggest bullshitter in wrestling, how fans & talent are getting fucked over every day of their lives, etc. He went on a lengthy rant on former ROH and current TNA talent Kenny King that included calling him any number of derogatory names, calling him a mark for himself and condemning him altogether. While discussing Vince, this is a little bit that's also found on the main page:

“People sue him, people walk out on him, people fuck him, people say horrible things about him, and he brings them back, not because it’s best for business, but because it’s best for his fucking ego. Vince McMahon has the worst inferiority complex of anybody in history. I say that because he wants to prove that he will do anything with anybody. He will reconcile with anybody, supposedly if it’s best for business, but really so he can get them under his thumb again and he can work with them again. He can prove that they needed him.”

Now personally, just based on everything we've all heard about Vince over the years, there might genuinely be some truth to this. However, to be fair, remember, this is pretty much standard operating procedure in wrestling to lash out at those you have some sort of grudge against, those who may have made it that you don't think should have, everybody else is the bad guy, he's the good guy, he's the one who gets fucked over, he's the one that tells it like it is, etc. Wrestling is a business full of bullshitters, Cornette knows that as well as anybody and far better than I ever will; I've no doubt whatsoever that he himself has spouted more than his fair share of bullshit here and there over the course of his time in wrestling. Like Shane Douglas, Cornette is someone who most definitely comes off as a mark for himself who blames nearly every promoter he's worked with for the deterioration in their working relationship; it's all their fault while he's just the ultra talented white knight that's always right but nobody listens to.

 

[enviousdominous]

Mil Mascaras anyone?

I follow a lot of people who may be considered the worst offenders when it comes to marking out only on their own behalf, mainly to see if they've ever laid down for a pin on video. It doesn't have to be a clean pin, but I give extra kudos if they've allowed a clean pin. Submissions don't really count for me, that's just me.

Hogan was pinned by Warrior, Warrior was pinned by Andre, Andre was pinned by Hogan. Brody was pinned by Bruno. Hansen was pinned by Hogan, and I believe Martel. Honky Tonk Man was squashed by Warrior. Cena was squashed by Lesnar, who I believe laid down for Angle. Inoki was squashed by Vader, Vader was pinned by Sting.

In all my research over the lengthy career of Mil Mascaras on tv and ppv, he has never once allowed someone to beat him in any capacity. He has recorded losses to Freddy Blassie, but never on TV. The closest I've ever seen Mil come to losing on tv is a no contest result for when he tagged with Canek.

There's also the no-selling, Mil shrugs off every move in the pro-wrestling world as if he's literally unphasable. It makes his matches pretty fucking boring.

I have to say that by looking like a cocky piece of shit with no concern for anything except his own reputation, Mil Mascaras is a bigger mark for himself than anyone else in existence. He's also a piss poor example of a performer.

 

[Checkmate]

Cena was squashed by Lesnar, who I believe laid down for Angle.

Lesnar lost clean to Angle, tapped to Benoit, and lost to Guerrero.

On topic, when I read the thread title, the first names that popped into my head were Hulk Hogan, Vince Russo, and Jim Cornette. Cornette was covered pretty thoroughly by the OP already.

Hogan is an interesting case. I think he's less full of himself now than he was 10-15 years ago, though I understand anyone who feels the opposite is true. Mainly, he springs to mind because of his ego. Hogan's ego is huge. It's justified a bit due to all his accomplishments, but if you compare the top guys from different generations, Hogan will be first in line to tell you all about Hogan, way before Austin, Cena, and many others.

Russo has a writer's ego. I get that. He takes pride in his work, even if he can't always wrap his head around what is wrong with it. This isn't to say every or anything he's created or put his name on has been bad, but nobody has a real Midas touch; some things you try will turn out to be shit. But, Russo, on more than one occasion, has chosen to pass the buck rather than take responsibility.

 

[Cena Is A Punk Rocker]

I am honestly shocked nobody has brought up Bret Hart as one of the biggest self marks in the business. This man rarely has a positive word to say about any other wrestler. In every post retirement interview I have heard he does nothing but praise himself. Scott Hall has said that Bret has a shrine to himself in his bedroom.

 

[Mitch Henessey]

I'd have to go with Kurt Angle.

There's a recent-ish interview, where Angle talks about WWE treating him like a "nobody," and how he wouldn't consider leaving TNA unless WWE offered him a fair deal. I honestly wonder what Angle's idea of a "fair" deal was.

Angle also said something along the lines of "WWE is missing out on a lot of money with Kurt Angle." Going by everything I've read from Angle in interviews, you get the feeling he believes he deserves a deal similar to The Rock's deal or Brock Lesnar's. I'm sure Angle would receive a nice pop during his return, but I can't picture the fanfare coming close to or rivaling Rock or Lesnar's. If he was looking for something similar to The Rock or Brock Lesnar's deals, complete with Wrestlemania main events and world title runs, then he's just being delusional.

I know there were reports in the past of WWE offering Angle a full-time deal, knowing he would turn it down (a nice way of saying no), because his body wouldn't hold up. All things considered, if the powers that be in WWE were seriously considering bringing Angle back, I have to believe an RVD-esque deal is as far as they'd be willing to go, with Angle coming in every now and then for sporadic appearances to put over younger talent. And I remember Angle going on a "that company has no respect for me" tirade, when Orton used the Angle Slam years ago.

Another name that pops into my mind is Goldberg. Goldberg was smart to get out when he did, and not stick around too long to the point, where his body was too banged up, and you get the feeling he's not someone, who blows through his money.

Still, Goldberg believes WWE dropped the ball with him, and WWE didn't use him right. Goldberg defeated The Rock in the main event on a pay per view in his debut match, he had a world title run, and a featured match with Brock Lesnar at Wrestlemania XX. To add to that, Goldberg is another one of those retired/semi-retired wrestlers, who tries to spark some " one more match" buzz for himself. He'll go on about how he's training, staying in shape, and waiting for the right opportunity, but after a while you realize it's just hot air, and I'm past the point of caring or wondering if it'll ever happen.

 

[Aquaman6686]

I'd have to go with Kurt Angle.

There's a recent-ish interview, where Angle talks about WWE treating him like a "nobody," and how he wouldn't consider leaving TNA unless WWE offered him a fair deal. I honestly wonder what Angle's idea of a "fair" deal was.

Angle also said something along the lines of "WWE is missing out on a lot of money with Kurt Angle." Going by everything I've read from Angle in interviews, you get the feeling he believes he deserves a deal similar to The Rock's deal or Brock Lesnar's. I'm sure Angle would receive a nice pop during his return, but I can't picture the fanfare coming close to or rivaling Rock or Lesnar's. If he was looking for something similar to The Rock or Brock Lesnar's deals, complete with Wrestlemania main events and world title runs, then he's just being delusional.

I know there were reports in the past of WWE offering Angle a full-time deal, knowing he would turn it down (a nice way of saying no), because his body wouldn't hold up. All things considered, if the powers that be in WWE were seriously considering bringing Angle back, I have to believe an RVD-esque deal is as far as they'd be willing to go, with Angle coming in every now and then for sporadic appearances to put over younger talent. And I remember Angle going on a "that company has no respect for me" tirade, when Orton used the Angle Slam years ago.

Considering that Brock Lesnar gets to beat everyone in the company and gets paid millions for it, and WWE offered Kurt Angle a fraction of the money and wanted him primarily to put over younger talent, Kurt Angle is 100% in the right. Angle is a million times the star Brock Lesnar is. Angle should make double the money Lesnar gets and be able to pick and choose when he loses. Angle is a star who EARNED that type of special attraction deal, which Lesnar did not.

As for the original topic, Mil Mascaras is definitely up there, as is Shane Douglas. I'd say Douglas has the most undeserved ego in wrestling history. He's barely a somebody, borderline on being a nobody, who inexplicably thinks he's a huge legend. Brock Lesnar is also one of my top choices, since he walked out of the company in 2004 rather than put Undertaker over, and to this day refuses to put Undertaker over clean.

 

[Sexcellence of Sexecution]

I am honestly shocked nobody has brought up Bret Hart as one of the biggest self marks in the business. This man rarely has a positive word to say about any other wrestler. In every post retirement interview I have heard he does nothing but praise himself. Scott Hall has said that Bret has a shrine to himself in his bedroom.

It's Bret Hart for sure. This guy is the best there is, best there was and best there ever will be at putting himself over. He's so fucking bitter towards basically everyone in the business it's petty and ridiculous. You got screwed, we get it.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Some excellent choices above, yet I still see no one touching Hulk Hogan as a mark for himself.

In a thread some time ago, I said Hogan never jobbed to anyone. Someone disagreed with me, recalling 6 instances in which Hulk lost in order to benefit someone else. Of course, my statement was technically erroneous in claiming he 'never' jobbed, yet the other forum member didn't realize the irony in his statement: in a 30 year career, he jobbed 6 times.......and we're supposed to think Hogan is generous & willing to push others? Ha!

Still, after years and years reading how Hogan pushed other people to the side in order to advance his own career......in an era in which he needn't have done so because his legacy was as legendary as it could ever get......it's still hard to accept the idea that Hogan was working strictly to the benefit of WWE, WCW, TNA, and pro wrestling in general.

Apparently, too many other people's careers suffered so Hogan could have what he wanted......and after WCW made the mistake of giving the man creative control over his own character, the company wound up........well, you already know.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Mil Mascaras anyone?

Uh, yea.


While I wouldn't argue with the above, I too, have to put Bret Hart out there for consideration. Sadly, its simply impossible to put it into perspective for anyone who hasn't read his book. He finds ways to praise himself in the middle of praising other people. Its hilarious.


And, you know....The whole Montreal thing.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Some excellent choices above, yet I still see no one touching Hulk Hogan as a mark for himself.

In a thread some time ago, I said Hogan never jobbed to anyone. Someone disagreed with me, recalling 6 instances in which Hulk lost in order to benefit someone else. Of course, my statement was technically erroneous in claiming he 'never' jobbed, yet the other forum member didn't realize the irony in his statement: in a 30 year career, he jobbed 6 times.......and we're supposed to think Hogan is generous & willing to push others? Ha!

Still, after years and years reading how Hogan pushed other people to the side in order to advance his own career......in an era in which he needn't have done so because his legacy was as legendary as it could ever get......it's still hard to accept the idea that Hogan was working strictly to the benefit of WWE, WCW, TNA, and pro wrestling in general.

Apparently, too many other people's careers suffered so Hogan could have what he wanted......and after WCW made the mistake of giving the man creative control over his own character, the company wound up........well, you already know.

Hogan jobbed SIX TIMES to benefit someone else ???? AFTER he was WWE champion, not counting his AWA days ????

I can only count 3.....Ultimate Warrior.....Rock.....Lesnar. In each instance the win was a huge turning point for the winner and put them on path to bigger and better things.

He lost via a ridiculous screw job to The Undertaker in 1991, that did so little for Taker it is completely forgotten now, nothing more than a plot device to set up Ric Flair's title win. Taker was immediately dropped back down to the mid card as Mania season approached with Hogan, Sid, Flair, Savage, Piper, & Hart getting all the primo screen time.

Another ridiculous screw job was the "camera job" to Yokozuna, clearly designed to give Hogan a major excuse for the loss and set him for a return match at a later date (which never materialized because he went to WCW). This didn't do much at all for Yoko except make it clear that despite his massive size and unusual mobility he couldn't stand tall against quality opposition. He was a heel though so this didn't HURT him, but it didn't really help him much.

The Starrcade 97 loss was a farce and actually made Sting look weak it was carried off so bad, not too mention Sting only had the belt three months, doing little with it, his Super Brawl re match with Hogan AGAIN affirming that despite a massive fan fave who every heel was supposed to fear he couldn't beat Hogan clean with massive help. Then he dropped the belt about a month later, squashing his heat and ruining the climax to a year long build to their feud and his return. Hogan meanwhile immediately got the belt back and was front & center again while Sting languished outside the title picture.

Goldberg was maybe the best example of how you kill momentum. Goldberg's win was clean and dramatic, but so what....on the next PPV Hogan had the main event and best storyline, Goldberg had a throwaway match on the midcard. Next PPV after that, same thing, Sept PPV for Wargames, once again Hogan was front and center in the biggest match and best storyline, Goldberg in the midcard with a little promoted match with very little storyline backdrop to it. Oct Halloween Havoc, Goldberg did a get a prime storyline and match slot with DDP and a significant win, but he had to share Main Event status with Hogan-Ultimate Warrior. Really the only time that Golodberg had the biggest match and best storyline was at Starracde 98 against Kevin Nash, an event basically built square around their title match, with some excellent pre match build, and Ric Flair's return. And Goldberg lost in his shining moment, Flair's takeover of WCW and Hogan reformation of the core NWO became the front burner storyline, and soon Goldberg was out of the title picture summarily replaced by Flair, DDP, and a returning Sting wrestling Scott Hall in squash matches with little build on the undercard. Oh yeah and Hogan was champ during almost all of this.

He did put over Ric Flair four times (once on a DQ, once on a count out when injured) in televised matches one on one (and once more in a tag match), but beat him several more times. None of the losses were clean per se but Flair's title win on PPV in 1999 while not a clear cut clean win was in a Cage Match with No DQ and basically no rules (the match could be stopped for blood but it was decided before the start the blood had to be excessive, basically taking that caveat off the table). Flair pinned him after crunching him with a tire iron in a match Hogan clearly dominated.

While those wins may have helped Flair maintain an element of danger as the main heel who could take down Hogan (one of them was actually when Flair was a face and Hogan needed saved by the NWO to avoid tapping to the figure four, maybe the lone win that made Flair look strong) Hulk was always protected enough by the extreme measure and circumstances needed to gain wins (none of them clean). And Hogan got a lot of wins here too.

Hogan did I believe put over Big Show clean on Nitro in early 98 I think. Nice win for him with no titles, etc on the line.

Certainly what he did for Rock & Lesnar was impressive. And very rare.

SIX times ?!?!??!!? I don't think so.

Granted, Hogan was a huge star and you shouldn't damage that star by having him get beat all the time, especially when he is billed as your top hero and strongest good guy (which Hogan mostly was). Still nobody ever protected their character and televised portrayal better than Hogan, a mark for himself if ever there was one.

That said, wrestling is a tough business physically and emotionally with lots of travel, the matches can be extremely hard on you, wrestlers have no union to protect their rights and in fact are treated legally as Independent Contractors stripping away some of their rights. They are dependent on writers and fellow wrestlers to make them & their characters look good even when many of these people may not like them which can be a tricky situation. Once Hogan became that big I don't blame him for much of what he did to protect himself, even if it appears selfish and not always in the best interest of the company as a whole.

 

[blackcomicnerd]

Bret Hart. i'm a HUGE Bret Hart mark. Been that way since the mid 90's but he is one.

 

[beermanaust]

It's Bret Hart for sure. This guy is the best there is, best there was and best there ever will be at putting himself over. He's so fucking bitter towards basically everyone in the business it's petty and ridiculous. You got screwed, we get it.

Agree with this, Bret Hart is the most bitter and hating man I've ever seen. This guy need some humble pie. He has became a big jerk.

 

[agentmichaelscarn]

Agree with this, Bret Hart is the most bitter and hating man I've ever seen. This guy need some humble pie. He has became a big jerk.

I'm not denying that Bret wasn't a mark for himself, actually he was more a mark for the wrestling business in general. But do you seriously question why he is bitter?

Bret was born into wrestling. To his family wrestling was like the most important thing in the world. Like I said Bret was a mark for wrestling, he valued good and SAFE wrestling! He also valued loyalty.

So in a 5 year span he got forced out of a place that he never wanted to leave(WWF), got screwed on the way out, then had his brother tragically die performing a wrestling stunt, then have his career ended and life forever altered by a careless wrestler. So a guy that valued safety in the wrestling wring just lost his brother and his career due to wreckless wrestlers/stunts. Then just after that his Mother and Father die. His nephew dies, his brother in law dies, two of his closest friends die and he goes through a divorce.

So to sum things up, Bret's WWE career ended by him getting screwed over in the most controversial finishes in wrestling history, and his wrestling career ended by him having to quietly retire due to a life altering injury caused by a wreckless wrestler. So you add all this up, and you take into account how much Bret cared about wrestling you will see why he is a little bitter.

 

[harrythem]

Yeah I'd throw Bret Harts name near the top of that list but two other names I haven't seen mentioned yet: Dusty Rhodes and Ric Flair.

Yeah Flair seems to sell a rather bullshit version of himself nowadays (making a joke seeing as he turned himself into a joke perhaps) but, this is the guy that did everything in his power as booker of WCW to hinder the progress of The Hollywood Blondes (and let's not forget basically ignoring Foley vs Vader as a potential main event feud) because he didn't want his heel heat doused by others catching on...then getting into a pissing contest with Bret Hart about the content of Flairs book (including the disgusting bit about feeling sorry for the McMahons more than Bret when Owen died) and slapping Foley because Foley refused to shake his hand after he'd slaughtered him in his book (a receipt for Foley saying Flair was "as bad a booker as he was great a wrestler" which was fair considering what Flair did to Foleys career while he had the book in WCW). Plus he seems to find it easier to admit that he's been a mega shit dad when his kids were growing up a lot easier than admitting he's even lost half a step in wrestling.

As for Dusty Rhodes being a mark for himself, yeah, he was. Probably rubbed one out anytime anyone used the term "Dusty finish".

 

[Mustang Sally]

As for Dusty Rhodes being a mark for himself, yeah, he was.

As with Flair and Kevin Nash, I suppose it was nearly impossible for Dusty Rhodes to become lead booker and resist casting himself as the winner of featured events like Bunkhouse Stampede & similar stuff.

Even at that, I remember looking at all the capable wrestlers entered in the event that you knew damn well were there just to cater to Dusty's desire to boost his own stock.....and wondering how they felt about the futility of it all.

I still feel no one can touch Hogan as a self-mark, but Dusty.....especially with the way he looked.....was certainly up there, too.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I have to go with Bret Hart as well. If you listen to any of his interviews now a days, he can almost be described as petty with some of the things he has said. Chief among them being when he called 'Taker/HHH from WM 28 a 4 out of 10 match. Saying he called move for move what the two of them were going to do and what have you. I mean, come on; really? Also, there was one interview that I've just watched on YouTube where the interviewer asked Bret what he thought about Ric Flair winning the title in 92. Bret said that he was baffled that people thought of Flair as the greatest wrestler of all time. He goes on to say that a wrestler needs three things to be a great professional wrestler. Those were their look, in ring ability, and mic ability or ability to sell themselves as he put it. He said that if he rated him self in each area that his look would be 8/10, his promo would be 8/10, and his in ring ability was 10/10. When the interviewer asked why fans thought of Flair as the greatest, Bret said because he had a great character and that was it. He said that the best match he had ever seen from Flair was about a 7 out of 10 and that he himself has had several 10 out of 10 matches. He said that Flair could never deviate from his certain style of wrestling and that's why he was picked to be the guy after Flair. He said that Flair wrestled the exact same match night in and night out and could never do anything different, but that he himself could do everything. I mean if everybody was as over on Bret as Bret is over on Bret then he'd be bigger than Jesus.

This interview was from 2014 I believe.

 

[DetectiveZelix]

Hogan and Nash hands down. CM Punk following closely behind

 

[peter_midnight]

Hogan jobbed SIX TIMES to benefit someone else ???? AFTER he was WWE champion, not counting his AWA days ????

I can only count 3.....Ultimate Warrior.....Rock.....Lesnar. In each instance the win was a huge turning point for the winner and put them on path to bigger and better things.

He lost via a ridiculous screw job to The Undertaker in 1991, that did so little for Taker it is completely forgotten now, nothing more than a plot device to set up Ric Flair's title win. Taker was immediately dropped back down to the mid card as Mania season approached with Hogan, Sid, Flair, Savage, Piper, & Hart getting all the primo screen time.

Another ridiculous screw job was the "camera job" to Yokozuna, clearly designed to give Hogan a major excuse for the loss and set him for a return match at a later date (which never materialized because he went to WCW). This didn't do much at all for Yoko except make it clear that despite his massive size and unusual mobility he couldn't stand tall against quality opposition. He was a heel though so this didn't HURT him, but it didn't really help him much.

The Starrcade 97 loss was a farce and actually made Sting look weak it was carried off so bad, not too mention Sting only had the belt three months, doing little with it, his Super Brawl re match with Hogan AGAIN affirming that despite a massive fan fave who every heel was supposed to fear he couldn't beat Hogan clean with massive help. Then he dropped the belt about a month later, squashing his heat and ruining the climax to a year long build to their feud and his return. Hogan meanwhile immediately got the belt back and was front & center again while Sting languished outside the title picture.

Goldberg was maybe the best example of how you kill momentum. Goldberg's win was clean and dramatic, but so what....on the next PPV Hogan had the main event and best storyline, Goldberg had a throwaway match on the midcard. Next PPV after that, same thing, Sept PPV for Wargames, once again Hogan was front and center in the biggest match and best storyline, Goldberg in the midcard with a little promoted match with very little storyline backdrop to it. Oct Halloween Havoc, Goldberg did a get a prime storyline and match slot with DDP and a significant win, but he had to share Main Event status with Hogan-Ultimate Warrior. Really the only time that Golodberg had the biggest match and best storyline was at Starracde 98 against Kevin Nash, an event basically built square around their title match, with some excellent pre match build, and Ric Flair's return. And Goldberg lost in his shining moment, Flair's takeover of WCW and Hogan reformation of the core NWO became the front burner storyline, and soon Goldberg was out of the title picture summarily replaced by Flair, DDP, and a returning Sting wrestling Scott Hall in squash matches with little build on the undercard. Oh yeah and Hogan was champ during almost all of this.

He did put over Ric Flair four times (once on a DQ, once on a count out when injured) in televised matches one on one (and once more in a tag match), but beat him several more times. None of the losses were clean per se but Flair's title win on PPV in 1999 while not a clear cut clean win was in a Cage Match with No DQ and basically no rules (the match could be stopped for blood but it was decided before the start the blood had to be excessive, basically taking that caveat off the table). Flair pinned him after crunching him with a tire iron in a match Hogan clearly dominated.

While those wins may have helped Flair maintain an element of danger as the main heel who could take down Hogan (one of them was actually when Flair was a face and Hogan needed saved by the NWO to avoid tapping to the figure four, maybe the lone win that made Flair look strong) Hulk was always protected enough by the extreme measure and circumstances needed to gain wins (none of them clean). And Hogan got a lot of wins here too.

Hogan did I believe put over Big Show clean on Nitro in early 98 I think. Nice win for him with no titles, etc on the line.

Certainly what he did for Rock & Lesnar was impressive. And very rare.

SIX times ?!?!??!!? I don't think so.

Granted, Hogan was a huge star and you shouldn't damage that star by having him get beat all the time, especially when he is billed as your top hero and strongest good guy (which Hogan mostly was). Still nobody ever protected their character and televised portrayal better than Hogan, a mark for himself if ever there was one.

That said, wrestling is a tough business physically and emotionally with lots of travel, the matches can be extremely hard on you, wrestlers have no union to protect their rights and in fact are treated legally as Independent Contractors stripping away some of their rights. They are dependent on writers and fellow wrestlers to make them & their characters look good even when many of these people may not like them which can be a tricky situation. Once Hogan became that big I don't blame him for much of what he did to protect himself, even if it appears selfish and not always in the best interest of the company as a whole.

So are you going to ignore the fact that Hogan put Roddy Piper & Lex Luger over both on television (Piper on PPV), Luger's win by submission on Nitro? I say this because the only guy I ever saw Piper job clean to was Bret Hart, but other than that I don't think I've seen him lose too many times in his career. Piper would probably be bigger than Bret Hart as I've seen Bret put people over (including odd enough Lex Luger in his WCW run).

As for the OP, it has been argued that HHH stole his gimmick (the Game) from Douglas. Also, I don't think you understand what being a mark for yourself is. Douglas jobbed plenty in his career. Being a mark for yourself means you put yourself above doing business or making money. In this case, I would say Steve Austin was a mark for himself during his angle with Scott Hall, which Hall has argued on camera in a shoot for RF Video.

While I'm a Bret Hart fan, I can see why people would feel that way, but I don't agree with Montreal being one of the reasons. People seem to forget that Bret had "reasonable creative control" for the last 30 days of his contract. He had every right to refuse any angle he felt was not best for him unless it was unreasonable, which is hard to define in the wrestling business. The blame squarely lies on Vince for not taking the belt from him before asking him to sign with WCW. You can't just ignore a contract you signed because now the terms don't benefit you. That's not how contracts work.

Shawn Michaels would be a mark for himself since he basically refused to put over anybody in the 90s. Roddy Piper could be argued for, but I actually say no as he was refusing to job because it was good for him as a heel not because he didn't like losing (although let's face it, he clearly didn't like to lose, lol).

 

[NSL]

Certainly not on the level of Hogan, Bret, or Mascaras, but I'd throw Jack Evans out there. Not even for his win/loss record or accomplishments, but the dude's an asshole, and he makes me hate him just by the way he carries himself. If he'd ever shut up, he'd be slightly entertaining to watch, but his ego has yet to find an arena it will fit in.

 

[harrythem]

While I'm a Bret Hart fan, I can see why people would feel that way, but I don't agree with Montreal being one of the reasons. People seem to forget that Bret had "reasonable creative control" for the last 30 days of his contract. He had every right to refuse any angle he felt was not best for him unless it was unreasonable, which is hard to define in the wrestling business. The blame squarely lies on Vince for not taking the belt from him before asking him to sign with WCW. You can't just ignore a contract you signed because now the terms don't benefit you. That's not how contracts work. .

He was leaving. The best creative direction for WWE was Austin vs HBK for Wrestlemania (which the buyrate + Tyson proved correct) so Bret losing the title to HBK would, to me, be classed as reasonable. They wasn't asking Bret to do a clean 2 minute old school job, they were asking him to pretty much have the match they had (and it was quite a good match) and lay down at the end, probably after DX interfered. Bret refusing to do that was unreasonable.

Vince was a dick for doing it, no question, but Bret kinda didn't leave him with many other choices and it's not that Montreal happened that people didn't side with Bret, it was more that he non-stop went on about it every single chance he has ever had since then.

Admit it, you could picture Bret banging his wife asking her "who's the best there ever is" Then always timing the money shot just for "the best there ever will beeeeeeeeee" while spending the whole time either getting her to wear a full on Bret Hart costume (including mask & title belt) or just staring into a mirror like in American Psycho.

 

[noTORRIEus]

I'm going to go in a different direction and speak about someone in today's wrestling and go with Ryback.

He is a total mark for himself and is way too serious. I've read others saying this numerous times, hell, watch Table for 3 with Ryback, DBry and Miz. I was a fan of his and watching made me stop, even the Mrs. said "he needs to get a sense of humor and stop taking things so serious."

 

[rmp0012002]

Gotta go with Hogan, Brotha. Protecting your character is part of the sport but he carried it excessively far when he didn't have to as he was a legend in the sport.

 

[J.J.]

Ole Anderson - He felt he was always right, even when he was wrong. He had a great run in the territories with Gene Anderson and later in his career with Arn. It's just when he got on the booking side it was his way or the highway. He was not opened minded and was part of GCW being sold to Vince McMahon in the 80s. He eliminated the top stars from GCW and was paying himself the most money. GCW went under because they were making no money(to his credit their TV program was pulling in 6.0s every week) He felt Hogan wasn't going to be a draw and sent him up to McMahon(I believe Hogan was with Verne Gagne before going to WWE).

Anyway he was probably famous for being apart of the original Horsemen(which he was snubbed from the WWE HOF). Rounded up his in ring career around '90 or '91. Was on the booking side in WCW and ultimately couldn't get them anywhere, nor could Dusty Rhodes or Bill Watts. Once Eric Bischoff came in, wasn't long after that - Ole Anderson was gone, I believe terminated.

Today he's an ornery old man - I saw him at the Mid-Atlantic fanfest during the summer(as I do every year it's to the point he knows me). He admits to not watching the current day product and has a personal hatred for Ric Flair, Vince McMahon, Erlc Bischoff, Lanny Poffo to name a few.

Teddy Long was at the event. He teased me for my lengthy conversation with Ole when I was seeking an autograph from him. Teddy admitted he hadn't spoken to Ole in quite some years he refused to acknowledge he was there. Citing that Ole was all about himself and how much money he could make. Which put GCW's failure into perspective.

He does have a lot of knowledge of the business and it takes some time to adjust to his personality. Threaten to push him out his wheelchair and he lightens up. If he wasn't so sure of himself all the time he would've been a very valuable asset to NXT. Unfortunately for him he's a grumpy old man being an ass in shoot interviews.

Lex Luger would've went in Ole's place but Lex has become more and more humble each year I see him at the fanfest. I almost show sympathy for him - he's in bad shape and this year he was in an electric wheel chair. He resides in Charlotte now and is heavily involved in a non-profit organization with a wrestler whose name has slipped my mind at the moment.

 

[shalliin]

A whole page and neither Ric FLair or Vince McMahon has been listed? What have people been doing for the last 30 years? No one is more full of themselves and their own self importance in the biz then these two men. VM has tried so hard to get out of the biz with his power lifting league in early 90's then his football league around 2002 or so, and every thing he's done outside of the biz has failed while he's been struggling for almost 20 years to keep people interesting in a falling field of interesting.
Flair, well I don't feel need to point to any specifics, but pretty much every minute of his career has been about pushing himself beyond any one else in any company or in his life, with what 4/5 marriages that failed, bringing his kids into the biz and propping them up when they struggled to find their own identities outside of him.

Flair and Vince are the worst of all offenders.

 

[shalliin]

I have to go with Bret Hart as well. If you listen to any of his interviews now a days, he can almost be described as petty with some of the things he has said. Chief among them being when he called 'Taker/HHH from WM 28 a 4 out of 10 match. Saying he called move for move what the two of them were going to do and what have you. I mean, come on; really? Also, there was one interview that I've just watched on YouTube where the interviewer asked Bret what he thought about Ric Flair winning the title in 92. Bret said that he was baffled that people thought of Flair as the greatest wrestler of all time. He goes on to say that a wrestler needs three things to be a great professional wrestler. Those were their look, in ring ability, and mic ability or ability to sell themselves as he put it. He said that if he rated him self in each area that his look would be 8/10, his promo would be 8/10, and his in ring ability was 10/10. When the interviewer asked why fans thought of Flair as the greatest, Bret said because he had a great character and that was it. He said that the best match he had ever seen from Flair was about a 7 out of 10 and that he himself has had several 10 out of 10 matches. He said that Flair could never deviate from his certain style of wrestling and that's why he was picked to be the guy after Flair. He said that Flair wrestled the exact same match night in and night out and could never do anything different, but that he himself could do everything. I mean if everybody was as over on Bret as Bret is over on Bret then he'd be bigger than Jesus.

This interview was from 2014 I believe.

he's over rating himself a bit, but he's right about flair. Flair was boring as shit and had less moves then Cena-who is unfairly hated for using a core set of moves. Flair set/lowered the standard of what to expect in a match moveset and every one since has tried to copy/limit themselves to a small group of moves. Sadly this has worked for the most part as every top level wrestler since the 90's has done the same. Take any wrestler and watch 10 of their matches against 10 different opponents. And see just how often the same moves are done, the same SPOTS are done, the same mannerisms, promos, trash talk, everything. Guys smarks get behind are lauded for knowing a ton of moves, but still use the same 3-4 in every match as their main offensive sets, and guys who dont' try to use other moves due to the gimmick they are working or their physical size/limitations are derided for not using dozens of different moves in every match in the exact same way the smarks ignore in their 'chosen' heroes.