"The Franchise" Shane Douglas: Overrated or Underrated?

Shane Douglas: Overrated or Underrated

  • Overrated

  • Underrated


Results are only viewable after voting.

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This should be interesting. Shane Douglas is a solid wrestler. He basically helped ECW get the attitude it so dearly needed during the mid to late '90s with his shoot promos and him throwing the NWA Worlds Heavyweight Title down and proclaiming himself the ECW Champion. He also wrestled during the last legs of WCW at the time with Torrie Wilson as his valet.

And in doing all of this, Douglas couldn't draw a dime. He was good on the mic because he spoke his mind, but he's also a bitter, average worker who can only bad mouth wrestlers that are galaxies better than him. He talked himself up a lot bigger than what he really was. He was just a loudmouth with average work in the ring and an average look. Nothing special. So I think he's HIGHLY overrated. What's your thoughts?

Shane Douglas: OVERRATED or UNDERRATED?
 
I say overrated, he really was only a star in ECW and that's it. Any other promotion he was in, he was either put with a stupid gimmick that no matter what he did, he couldn't get it over or get himself over. He was a solid wrestler, but his attitude was shit. He had a holier than thou attitude, and pissed on everyone else. He thought since he ushered in the Extreme in ECW that he was the greatest thing in the world.

However once he was out of the ECW limelight and the cult following he had while in ECW, people realized he wasn't that great indeed. He couldn't even hold half of the guys jock strap while in WCW or WWF(E). His Dean gimmick was horrendous, though he shouldn't shoulder the blame for that one fully, same with his surfer dude gimmick, however he didn't have to accept them. He did and now he bitches about him. Yeah likely they might not have keep him if he turned down the gimmicks, but he'd still have his pride.

Outside of ECW Shane Douglas was/is a joke. No one takes him seriously, the fans have forgotten about him and other wrestler's could really care less about him. He has no legacy and has been surpassed by everyone else. Overrated for sure.
 
Definitely, definitely underrated. He was one of the best World Champion in the nineties, yet watch how many people disagree with that, even though there's nothing anyone can say that will disprove it.

Why was he one of the best World Champions during the nineties? Well, let's see... he was one of, if not THE, the best heels during that era, for one. The guy caused fucking riots. But also... The Franchise delivered night in and night out as champion, both on the mic with his angles/storylines, and in the ring with his matches. He carried ECW when it first changed to Extreme Championship Wrestling, and brought attention to the company from all over the World. And he carried it when Raven (ECW's Golden Boy at the time) left the company.

People will bring up his run in WWE, well he was given a shit gimmick that not even The Rock or Steve Austin could have ever gotten over with. That was not his fault. And in WCW, well... firstly, he did have a solid start there by having tremendous tag matches with Ricky Steamboat, but when he returned to the company in the late nineties, he had another solid run there as well and was one of the very few entertaining aspects of the show at that time. So no one could ever say he didn't prove himself on a national level, because the fact of the matter is that he did with WCW and did so twice.

And in doing all of this, Douglas couldn't draw a dime.

That's a load of bullshit right there, man. Like I said, he carried ECW on his back for years and even though they didn't make money that could have competed with WWE or WCW, ECW still drew really well for an independent company. And if Paul Heyman wasn't so bad with money, there's no telling what ECW could have came to and what Shane Douglas could have contributed to it on a larger scale.

He was good on the mic because he spoke his mind, but he's also a bitter, average worker who can only bad mouth wrestlers that are galaxies better than him. He talked himself up a lot bigger than what he really was. He was just a loudmouth with average work in the ring and an average look. Nothing special. So I think he's HIGHLY overrated.

This is also extremely false.

Shane Douglas had a character, and that character was to be pissed off at the World. Not just at Ric Flair or the Klip, but at everyone else for his short comings. He blamed everyone but himself for his failures, just like EVERY fucking heel in the history of pro wrestling has done. And it got him over as a whiney little bitch. ECW fans HATED Shane Douglas because he cried all the time, while talking a huge fucking game without backing it up. That was his character. And he was so good at it, he has people like you convinced it was all legit. Well, I got news for you, it wasn't. Watch a Shane Douglas shoot interview. Sure, he has opinions of what happened here and there, but he's nowhere near as outlandish as he was in ECW on the microphone. That was just his gimmick, man, and he was fucking GREAT at it.
 
That's a load of bullshit right there, man. Like I said, he carried ECW on his back for years and even though they didn't make money that could have competed with WWE or WCW, ECW still drew really well for an independent company. And if Paul Heyman wasn't so bad with money, there's no telling what ECW could have came to and what Shane Douglas could have contributed to it on a larger scale.

Shane Douglas wasn't the reason people watched. RVD, Sandman, Raven, Tommy Dreamer and others were. Shane was a solid wrestler, but was overrated in my opinion. I don't even factor his first run in WCW and his run in the WWF, because he was given shit gimmicks to work with, however, if he indeed played a character, then I'll change my stance again, but to me, it seems as if he was really bitter toward people that were simply better than him at his job.



This is also extremely false.

Shane Douglas had a character, and that character was to be pissed off at the World. Not just at Ric Flair or the Klip, but at everyone else for his short comings. He blamed everyone but himself for his failures, just like EVERY fucking heel in the history of pro wrestling has done. And it got him over as a whiney little bitch. ECW fans HATED Shane Douglas because he cried all the time, while talking a huge fucking game without backing it up. That was his character. And he was so good at it, he has people like you convinced it was all legit. Well, I got news for you, it wasn't. Watch a Shane Douglas shoot interview. Sure, he has opinions of what happened here and there, but he's nowhere near as outlandish as he was in ECW on the microphone. That was just his gimmick, man, and he was fucking GREAT at it.

As I said before, if he did play a 'character', then I'll rechange my stance, but I sincerely don't think he was. He wasn't a person who could draw money. He was a midcarder at best. Some people have the look, and to me, Douglas didn't have it. He seemed like someone who had to depend on others to get him over, like by dissing Flair and the Kliq. But I'm open minded. If this was just a character, I could buy into him, but I sincerely think he's just work shooting in all of his promos and his actions.
 
Totally Overated, Yes the guy braught ECW to the stage it was supposed to be with an attitude immitated by its competitors, but remember the guy who put him their, Paul Heyman.

The guy was given the ball and ran with it by cursing alot, Shane has been given the ball countless times by the WWE and WCW, he won numerous titles in WCW in its final days in hopes that he would get his world title shot, but in the end he ended up doing nothing but saying how he was going to franchise tourie wilsons ass.

Can you remember a match outside of ECW that Shane douglas was involved in?, I can't.

Apart from being an average worker with little to no mic skills Douglas always kept bashing the Hogans, the Flairs and anyone else above him on the totem poll because he knew that he couldnt do much else, he could only get over with a crowd by cursing and ripping people, he couldnt work with a gimmick had no carisma, and by all else couldnt even carry a big company or any big feuds without the crowd going dead, remember his match against hugh morris for the US title?, first blood?, it was actually declared the worst match of the Year by PWI and WCW was putting out alot of stinkers that year.

So reitterating Overated, he is one of the pioneers for ECW thats where it ends.
 
Douglas is overrated. For a number of reasons.

Reason #1: He couldn't adapt well to being in a bigger promotion. Once he went to ECW and didn't have any restriction he cut promos full of cursing and whatnot. When he went to WCW in 1999, he was just your typical under card heel that couldn't cuss which was 90% of his gimmick in ECW. Douglas couldn't get heat without saying curse words. Look back at the footage, his stuff was quite bad.

Reason #2: He couldn't draw on a bigger scale. He may have drawn well in ECW, but they weren't 10,000 people or more in a big arena. He could draw 1,500 people while he was champion. You could argue that the fans didn't care about Douglas and were wanting to see Rob Van Dam at the time. He got over by trashing Flair (which was a work and not a shoot as some people believe).

I liked Shane Douglas, but he is clearly overrated.
 
Totally Underrated. Was Shane Douglas a top tier talent? No, not really, but he had a knack for being the kind of wrestler that could be thrown over where he needed to be and could run with the ball. He was never a good baby face, but a damn good Heel. I tell you, Douglas had the ability to get people to listen and hate him, which was a good thing. For those of you that co0me to the table with the "We don't count the WCW run because he had a BS gimmick", let me remind you what Shane Douglas was doing the last three myears of WCW. He got to be in a group with Perry Saturn, Dean Malenko, and Chris Benoit, two of them former Horsemen. He also got to win the Tag Team championship with Buff Bagwell and also was the United States Champion at the time. All through even to the end of WCW, he continued his feud with Ric Flair and even though the company was being sold, they were still building that feud, telling me that they were going somewhere with it. Not saying that WCW was in the best state as a company at the time, which it obviously was far from it, but Shane Douglas was actually being pushed quite heavily the last year especially of WCW. Plus he's a five time major World Heavyweight Championship holder. Four at ECW and once NWA World Heavyweight Championship and this is all back when the titles actually meant something. Now you also add in his "Hardcore Homecoming" events that he put together, he's not too shabby as a promoter as long as he is actually in charge unlike the crap that happened in XPW, which wasn't his fault, before anyone brings that garbage up. The guy is gold on the mic and could still be a valuable asset to the industry as a trainer or even a Heel manager if someone would use him in the right capacity. Add in the fact that Douglas seems to have a mind for the business, he might even make a good booker in the back. Can't do worse than the people doing it now min the big two.:banghead:
 
Definitely, definitely underrated. He was one of the best World Champion in the nineties, yet watch how many people disagree with that, even though there's nothing anyone can say that will disprove it.

Thank you. Shane Douglas is sorely underrated. He took a mediocre regional independent promotion called Eastern Championship Wrestling, and turned it into Extreme Championship Wrestling which became the #3 wrestling company in the world within a few short years.

Why was he one of the best World Champions during the nineties? Well, let's see... he was one of, if not THE, the best heels during that era, for one. The guy caused fucking riots. But also... The Franchise delivered night in and night out as champion, both on the mic with his angles/storylines, and in the ring with his matches.

The best heel of the '90's? Maybe. However, if you ask my opinion, I'd say he is the best heel in the history of the business. Douglas had the ability to make people feel real emotions. The fans didn't boo just because he was a heel and that's what the fans are supposed to do. Nope. They booed, threw objects at him in the ring, attempted to hop the railing to physically attack him, and waited for him after the shows to fight him (or try to stab him in a few cases). This guy was so damn good at his job, he actually had to fear for his safety because he had envoked such hatred.

Shane Martin, the person, may have been somewhat of an asshole. Everyone knows how much he would shoot on the WWE and on Ric Flair. He was dealt a shitty hand a few times during his runs with the WWE and WCW and he was never shy about voicing his displeasure about that. Because of his abrassive attitude, he's looked down upon by alot of wrestling fans. That is truly a shame because Shane Douglas, the wrester, was a tremendous talent who is many times overlooked because of his personal problems. He was techincally sound in the ring, had great psychology, and is one of the best mic workers to ever enter into this business.
 
extremely overrated

they could've gotten anyone to turn Eastern Championship to Extreme Championship and it would've had the same, if not better, effect. he was a big name in ECW, which out of the Big 3, was way behind in 3rd. fans went to see everyone, ECW never had a guy hands down the face of the company (hence people chanting "ECW" all the time). the concept of their wrestling matches, which were significantly different from WWF and WCW, was their image/face. i was never a fan of Douglas' work in the ring, so at his best, in my opinion he was mediocre. someone brought up his mic skills, exactly that, overrated too. anyone can go out there, cuss, get cheap heat with no restrictions, but he was never able to do that with WCW or TNA. his gimmick as "The Franchise" didn't have any personality to it either. it was just him, Shane Douglas, same guy in that role. it didn't help his cause that everyone that was in ECW was "bitter" at the other two companies because of their lack of pushes, all they were seen as guys who would do whatever it took to get on tv desperately.

i'd have to compare him to Jeff Jarrett to be honest. in his head, he thinks he's a big name, held a World title or two, got cheap heat, but never drew. Shane Douglas' biggest heat couldn't beat RVD's lowest of pops (and RVD got way WAY more pops in that company than Douglas ever got heat)
 
Can you remember a match outside of ECW that Shane douglas was involved in?, I can't.

Viagara on a Pole vs. Billy Kidman, if I recall.

remember his match against hugh morris for the US title?, first blood?, it was actually declared the worst match of the Year by PWI and WCW was putting out alot of stinkers that year.

You sir, are a liar.

All in all I dont really feel that Douglas is either overrated or underrated. The man achieved a fair amount in the business, and not everyone can be Steve Austin. Sometimes making a career for yourself doing what you love should be enough - and to my mind it is for Shane Douglas.
 
I'm going with overrated. I like the comparison the last poster made to Jeff Jarrett, as they both see themselves as way better than they actually are, but I'm going to take another route for comparison.

Anyone who is say underrated about Shane Douglas is an ECW mark. I would almost guarantee that. Whether you are a mark or not for ECW, you have to recognize that it was a minor league, independent production. In the 90's, you needed to be working for WCW or WWE to be considered remotely successful as a wrestler. I take that back. You needed to be in the big 2 to be considered successful as an ENTERTAINER. Keep in mind this is a business where storylines, characters, and feuds sell. While it is important to understand how to work in the ring, what sells is the ability to make fans care why you are fighting in the ring to begin with. The one thing I don't get about boxing (just an aside here), is that 2 guys are fighting for no reason, only to see who is a better boxer. However, boxing's results aren't decided beforehand. Wrestling's are, so to be good in an industry where you could be scripted to lose, you need to be able to sell fans on either rooting FOR or AGAINST you and wanting to see your matches.

As for Shane Douglas, his clear lack of success in the big 2 promotions speaks for itself. Say what you want about his U.S. title run in WCW or his push there, but that was when it was already a sinking ship. Everyone and their mother was getting chances. Hell, JEFF JARRETT was champion! That should tell you enough of where the company was at that point. Couple that with his "push" being followed by his contract not being picked up by WWE and you can see that the major league show didn't see him as marketable. He was an average talent. A guy who believed his hype as given to him by Paul Heyman. Paul has a way of making guys believe they are better than they are (Mr. Kennedy anyone?). From watching old footage and matches and promos, I found Douglas to be a product of a hostile atsmosphere in Philly and a man in the right place at the right time. At that time, Eastern Championship Wrestling wasn't exactly riding high on talent, so he was given the ball and fucking ran with it. I use foul language there as a precursor to talking about his promos. Was that Andrew Dice Clay writing them? Tony Montana? Anyone telling the crowd to go fuck themselves can get a crowd to hate them. Curse words have that effect on people. However, it takes a real talent to draw heat without it and he never really could. Not on a level that others have.

If you believe the Douglas hype, ask yourself this: why, if he was one of the top talents ECW ever had (in your eyes), did other talent that came through ECW as nothing more than midcard talent build themselves up to be successful in the bigger companies? Take Mick Foley, Chris Jericho, Steve Austin as prime examples. These men saw ECW as a proving ground. One they could hone their skills and get noticed for having potential. If Douglas had so much potential, he woulda gotten more offers and more of a chance to succeed at the next level. Succeeding also means adapting to any role, working hard on your character and your wrestling, and always getting better. Douglas never did that and to me, that makes an underachiever and because he is known as almost the godfather of ECW, an overrated talent.

Conclusion: Average ring technician, average mic man (below average in the big companies due to toned down language which he is not a master of like guys like Foley and Jericho), and overinflated ego equals an overrated wrestler who will always see himself as a lot better than I ever will.

PS, his TNA run this year was really good too...........................NOT!
 
Extremely UNDERrated. I've heard people gripe and moan about him not doing anything outside of ECW in the glory days, but then again, when ECW went under, and WWE got a lot of that talent, how many of them stood out? Tommy Dreamer's still there and is pulling an Al Snow with the exception of them throwing the ECW belt on him recently for a short run. Sandman went to mid-card and then got booted, and haven't seen him around. Raven? Let's not even go there. He fared horribly turning into an upper-lower card jobber fed to 3/4 of the roster. Rhino? Tazz? Tazz gained his notoriety as an announcer, not retaining the huge persona he had in ECW. Sabu? Not far. Lance Storm is another excellent example. Hell, even Terry Funk's WWE stints lacked an element he had elsewehere. And don't think I don't like any of these guys, by the way. I love these wrestlers more than most of the current fare out there. I am and always will be an original ECW mark and all of the talent I mentioned top my all time favorites list. However, we're making a point about Shane Douglas. The reason he didn't last even as little as some of the other "extreme icons" was his exceptional wrestling mind and lack of hesitation to speak out against anything he didn't like about the business. You speak out and threaten somebody's happy, comfy, little fantasy world and they blacklist you. It happens in average blue collar life all the time, and it works that way in the wrestling community. I've been watching a lot of different hardcore dvds lately, Hardcore Homecoming, Forever Hardcore (awesome documentary) and various others and all I can say is that the man was not even close to be given his due. As for his mediocre ring ability? I think people are smoking crack. I've seen some of his matches and they were great. I think RVDgurl summed it up absolutely perfectly, actually, but I'm putting in my 2 cents anyway. I also believe that his attitude towards the business can be put up there with Bret Hart's. He was a man who stuck to his convictions and remained true to himself even in the face of adversity. He had a PASSION for the business that came out in his interviews and promos and interaction with the fans and was on a much higher level than the majority of superstars. When other "big names" were worried about paychecks and politics he stood his ground and stuck to his guns. Did it hurt his career? Yeah, probably, but I admire people like that much more than the Hogans and the Nashs of the world and I think as long as there are people like him with that die hard attitude it will keep the true love, emotion, and passion of the sport alive that seems to be dying out as the years go by.
 
He was under rated. Shane is a good in ring worker with average mic skills. I know francine helped him out a little. Also people say he couldnt make it in WWE or WCW when he was there but how many other wrestlers couldnt make it either. DDP flopped in WWE. Steve Austin was never over in WcW. Jericho, Eddie G. were stuck in cruiserweight hell in wcw along with Rey. Vader flopped in WWE. He couldnt hold his spot on top. I know Flair Douglas have a fued, but now so does Bret Hart and Flair so who is to blame. I am from Charlotte and I remember down here Flair ws arrested for beating up a guy just because he said wrestling was fake..lol This was during his WWE run so it wasnt that long ago. Who wouldnt fued with a nut job like that.lol
 
Shane Douglas was and still is extremely overrated. I know that some are just so hung up on the fact that he was a big part of ECW but ECW was never a big deal. I'm not saying it to bash the company, but it is what it is.

Douglas was never really a big deal outside of ECW and didn't draw a dime. Some want to make it seem that he was the one carrying ECW, that he was the only one that fans wanted to see and that is complete bullshit. In his head, he feels he's the greatest overall worker of his generation. He was pretty good on the mic, he spoke his mind but nearly everything he said was saturated with bitterness. It seemed as though he had to try to run down others in order to get himself over as if he couldn't do it himself.

In his mind, I'm sure he feels he's one of the best ever. In actuality, he just didn't have what it takes to make it in the bigs. I'm sure it's much easier to run down everyone he can think of that he says screwed him over. He may have some legitimate points sometime, but he basically just tried to make it seem that everyone was against him. What'd he expect? Flair, the Kliq and Vince to just drop trou and take it good and hard up the tailpipe from him? He just wasn't nearly as good as he thought he was. I've heard his line lots of times from other guys that feel they shoulda been at the top but ultimately never made it.
 
I bet most of the people claiming Shane Douglas is overrated know very little about him and his career at all. People claim he did nothing in big promotions and on a national level but that's really not true. Shane Douglas won the NWA championship back when the NWA still meant something and that championship still was a testament to the wrestler who was given it. He was in the WWF before he ever went to ECW and he had good showings there, including lasting long in the 1991 Royal Rumble. If he hadn't had to leave to take care of his ailing father who can predict what would've happened? Then he went to WCW and had success in a tag team with Ricky Steamboat and won the championships. That's certainly success, and it could've gone further if he didn't jump to ECW where he broke out and became one of the top heels of the 90's. Anyone who claims Shane Douglas wasn't a very important part of ECW's initial success or claims anyone could've been in that same position and ECW would've grown to where it did doesn't know what they're talking about and is full of shit. You're highly, highly underestimating and underrating Shane Douglas with just that statement, which proves to me you don't understand what you're evening debating.

Also, people seem not to take into consideration that Shane Douglas was the first wrestler one of the big 2 acquired from ECW. They wanted Douglas because of what he offered and what he had done during his time in ECW, and he had all the potential in the world to be a success in the WWF. They didn't come seeking anyone else; not Raven, not RVD, not Tommy Dreamer, no one.. they sought Shane Douglas and signed him. And from the very beginning of his arrival he was pushed, and even earned the Intercontinental championship. The reason he didn't last in WWF or "make it big" had nothing to do with his talent or lack-thereof as some people want to claim, it had everything to do with what happened outside of the ring and backstage. No one can claim to know the details of that, but even his short stint in the WWF was memorable enough that we all remember it. And then his time in WCW? People saying he did nothing during that run is a bit of an exaggeration and is once again underrating him. He came into WCW and led the stable the Revolution (Benout, Malenko and Saturn). The only reason they never got over was the same reason so many talents didn't in WCW during that time, because they never were given the opportunity to get over. They were never pushed, they were never given any real feuds or bigger talent to work with. How the hell are they suppose to get over doing nothing? Shane Douglas was also part of the New Blood/Millionaire's storyline, but once again the New Blood were buried. But during his time in WCW he won the tag team titles and the United States title, so saying he did nothing and there was nothing memorable about his run in WCW isn't true.

Shane Douglas is underrated.. he was a good wrestler, he was good on the mic, and he had a good character. Over the span of his career he was ECW Heavyweight champion, WWF Intercontinental champion, WCW United States and Tag Team champion, NWA Heavwyeight champion. I think those are pretty good accomplishments, really, especially for not getting a lot of opportunity in the bigger promotions. He's underrated because people underrate him, it's as simple as that.
 
I wouldn't say he is either over or underrated. I think he was a good worker, decent on the mic and a solid in ring worker. Personally, I like Shane Douglas, and I loved what he did in ECW. I think he could've been a major champion in either of the "big two" given a more suitable gimmick, and the right push, but that doesn't mean he was underrated. It's hard for me to say if what Shane Douglas did in ECW made him great or not, because I think on some level, the old ECW is still somewhat similar to todays. Granted, ECW is now used to develop stars.. But I also think the old ECW, in a lot of ways, did the same thing, they just had different guys to work with, and different rules that made for a much more entertaining show. Replying to what others have said about Shane's runs in WCW and WWE, it's hard to judge properly. Dean Douglas was the worst gimmick since T.L. Hopper, and ECW was never on the same level as WWE or WCW. Sure, they gave us great programming because they did whatever the hell they wanted, and most of us bought into it. But they never had the funding either of "the big two" had, so we'll never know what they, or Shane for that matter, truly would have been capable of. Heyman is such a genius, he could find what made ANY wrestler great and use it. Without Heyman, we wouldn't have seen stars like Austin, Foley, Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero, Rey Mysterio. It took Heyman discovering what Shane Douglas was capable of for anyone else to see it. Someone in WCW saw it, hence the reason they hired him. He obviously was proving himself to someone, hence the U.S. title run, and decent push he got. Unfortunately Vince bought out the company before we could see Shane's WCW world title run, that I think was inevitable. All that being said, I absolutely wouldn't say he was overrated. But, I still wouldn't say he was underrated either. I just think we didn't get to see Shane at his full potential, mainly because he wasn't a "major" world champion, because for most of his career, he chose to stay in ECW.

And dude above me, you might want to check your facts because Raven went to WCW long before Shane Douglas did. It's not really fair to use that as an argument either, because Tommy Dreamer and RVD loved working in ECW, and I'm sure if they could be, they'd still be there.
 
I wouldn't say he is either over or underrated. I think he was a good worker, decent on the mic and a solid in ring worker. Personally, I like Shane Douglas, and I loved what he did in ECW. I think he

Man we were writing identical sentiments in different thread simultaneously as I just said the same thing about DDP. I am going to have to say the same thing about Shane as well, However, I don't like his quite as much as you. I liked his work in ECW in-ring wise and promo wise, to a degree. I say "to a degree" because I believe Shane would often use profanity as a crutch. Now, I am not someone who is offended by swearing, but I do firmly believe there are times when it is used in an effective emotional context and others when it is used in lieu of creativity and Shane would often tread in the latter territory. Though, he could often also use that mouth very creatively and talk people (I'm referring to ECW now) into the seats. As far as in-ring he was solid and worked hard, but wasn't one of the best ever either; not by a long shot. In WCW, I hated the Dynamic Dudes (though they had some okay matches), but really enjoyed his team with Steamboat as they had some terrific matches with Austin and Pillman. In ECW he did some decent stuff with Dreamer and Sabu and Funk, but nothing that made me think of him as the legend that some ECW marks make him out to be. In WWF he was saddled with a bad gimmick, but at the same time I felt like he never really tried that hard either; the spark just wasn't there. In his last run with WCW it was more of the same- decent mic work and some decent matches, but he wasn't bringing the house down. TNA-nothing spectacular, nothing disastrous (which is kind of how I'd sum up Shane's career). Ultimately, it's not like there's an overwhelming mass of fans who are clamoring for a Shane return and "Best of" DVD, but he's not completely forgotten either. So in a general sense he's not under or overrated, it's only certain individuals who give him far too much or far too little credit.

byrnside said:
And dude above me, you might want to check your facts because Raven went to WCW long before Shane Douglas did.

I believe he was referring to Douglas going to WWF in 1995 being the first major acquisition from ECW.

MisterRob said:
People claim he did nothing in big promotions and on a national level but that's really not true. Shane Douglas won the NWA championship back when the NWA still meant something and that championship still was a testament to the wrestler who was given it.

I am not here to demean any performer's accomplishments, nor am I here to demean the opinions of my fellow posters, but this statement is just factually inaccurate. The NWA Title lost a lot of prestige when WCW branded their own heavyweight title and then brought the NWA Title back in to play second-fiddle to the WCW title. Then by the time Shane won it the NWA was hardly a real "national promotion", but rather a weak, loosely based confederation of indies and the NWA Title (despite its historical lineage) was an indie title. If it meant so much I don't think Shane would've thrown it down so easily. I mean he even said in the promo he gave when he threw it down that he wasn't going to accept the torch of a dead promotion.
 
I believe he was referring to Douglas going to WWF in 1995 being the first major acquisition from ECW.

Yes I was. Clearly stated in my post.


I am not here to demean any performer's accomplishments, nor am I here to demean the opinions of my fellow posters, but this statement is just factually inaccurate. The NWA Title lost a lot of prestige when WCW branded their own heavyweight title and then brought the NWA Title back in to play second-fiddle to the WCW title. Then by the time Shane won it the NWA was hardly a real "national promotion", but rather a weak, loosely based confederation of indies and the NWA Title (despite its historical lineage) was an indie title. If it meant so much I don't think Shane would've thrown it down so easily. I mean he even said in the promo he gave when he threw it down that he wasn't going to accept the torch of a dead promotion.
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Yes, WCW had just broken ties with the NWA and it had lost a lot of its prestige and credibility due to those events. But it was still a credible championship to the fans, and it hadn't lost all of it's prestige due to how recent the parting had been. Shane Douglas was given the championship, clearly, to try to lift the NWA back up and move forward. That speaks volumes in itself. When Douglas threw down the title and became the ECW champion, THAT was when NWA lost all of it's credibility and became nothing. That was the final straw. So, in my opinion, there's still value in Douglas having been given the NWA championship when he was.
 
Very overrated. The guy didn't have a gimmick. That bs wasn't his gimmick. He was legitimately pissed off at the world. He didn't really have promo skills either. He used the same shit today he did in ECW. When he came to WCW or WWF he used the same shit. It was just a rant, a cursing filled tirade. He was decent in the ring, but sloppy. He didn't carry ECW at all. Yeah, he drew heat, but that's because the fans were mad because he wouldn't shut the fuck up. He couldn't adjust to other companies which you have to be able to do, and he failed at it. Miserably.
 
I bet most of the people claiming Shane Douglas is overrated know very little about him and his career at all. People claim he did nothing in big promotions and on a national level but that's really not true. Shane Douglas won the NWA championship back when the NWA still meant something.

The NWA World Heavyweight Championship didn't mean squat by the time Douglas won it. WCW severed ties fully with the NWA in 1993, which meant they no longer could use the NWA strap. The average fan at the time didn't know that, most didn't for that matter. Most WCW viewers thought that WCW owned the title and simply renamed it to reflect the WCW name. The NWA title quickly faded into obscurity. The NWA in and of itself basically became a nonentity once Turner gained control of Crockett Promotions. All WCW did was use the NWA name for the next several years. The NWA title obviously didn't mean much to Shane Douglas either, as he threw it down after winning it, declaring he didn't want to be the champion of a "dead promotion" as he put it.

He was in the WWF before he ever went to ECW and he had good showings there, including lasting long in the 1991 Royal Rumble.

Yeah man, he really did a lot. He lasted a while in a battle royal and held the IC championship for all of about 5 minutes.

Then he went to WCW and had success in a tag team with Ricky Steamboat and won the championships. That's certainly success, and it could've gone further if he didn't jump to ECW where he broke out and became one of the top heels of the 90's.

Nobody said he didn't win a few titles, but it takes more than that to be considered great. The Great Khali held the WHC in the WWE for a month but I'm not likely to refer to him as an all-time great anytime soon. Maybe he could've gone further, maybe not. I'm not concerned with speculation, just the facts as they are. Winning a few titles and lasting 26 minutes in a battle royal don't constitute greatness.

The reason he didn't last in WWF or "make it big" had nothing to do with his talent or lack-thereof as some people want to claim, it had everything to do with what happened outside of the ring and backstage. No one can claim to know the details of that

Yeah, that's the same stuff he's been spouting pretty much his entire career. Nobody is better at reving up the Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance than Shane Douglas. How many other neverwases have made the exact same claim? How many disgruntled employees of big companies have consistently talked shit about them and blame them for why they were never superstars? There are too many to count. So, you say no one can claim to now the details about it, yet you've said that it was because of all the backstage politices right? Were you there? Were you privy to the various conversations, blow ups and shouting matches? Shane Douglas is a legend in his own mind, nobody can convince him otherwise. It's so easy to blame the big evil entities of WCW and the WWF, so much easier than even acknowleding the possibility that he just didn't have what it took.
 
In spite of the well put together argument that came before this post, I will say that Shane Douglas is emphatically UNDERrated. Though the previous poster did hit on something that I feel is an altruistic statement that proves true: Where Shane Douglas resides in that spectrum (underrated or overrated) really depends on your personal reflections on ECW.

Perception is reality.

Perception is the smoke and mirrors in this industry that relies on the suspension of belief. If you're a more than casual fan of professional wrestling, there's no doubt that you've probably heard this concept being bandied about for quite awhile now. It usually has something to do with the way that we perceive the wrestlers in front of us as it relates to storyline and characters in that framework. That is the textbook definition of what workers and insiders call kayfabe.

The one thing that we never really think of though, is that as a fan of our favorite promotion, there is also a little of this going on between promoters. As shocking as it may sound, and while there is always an exception, just like the in-ring talent, most promoters don't hate each other. While there is a definite rivalry there, it seldom spills over into an outright hatred. Logistically speaking, because of the potential of established talent being imported from another promotion, they see each other as merely colleagues. What's good for TNA today could be good for WWE tomorrow.

Promoters have built a corporate image, a brand stamp if you will, and they rely on this to offset their product from one another just like Coke and Pepsi do. Just like Coke and Pepsi in the realm of soda, when it comes to all of the different promotions, the product is similar in that same manner. Sure, there are going to be subtle differences, but that heated and hated rivalry is largely a construct that is great for both companies where it counts most, financially.

I know. I know.

"Great, but what does that have to do with Shane Douglas?"

Well, it's no secret that (original) ECW fans hate(d) the WWE and WWF/E fans hate(d) the ECW. Even though Shane Douglas has appeared in dozens of promotions in the time between WCW and TNA, he was (and largely still is) seen as an ECW icon. On August 27, 1994 Douglas threw down the NWA title and (symbolically at least) created Extreme Championship Wrestling from Eastern Championship Wrestling. From that day on he was the ECW flagship character for all time - he was "The Franchise". Moments like that don't die easily, they're iconic because of how colossal they are. They rank up there with Jimmy Snuka's October 17, 1983 dive off the top of the steel cage onto Don Muraco at Madison Square Garden or Hulk Hogan bodyslamming Andre The Giant at Wrestlemania III. It doesn't matter if you're a WWF/WWE fan or not, if you're a wrestling fan worth your weight, you've done your history and you at least know about these things.

What does that mean? It means that sometimes, something is historic not just because it happened "back then" but because it helped to define the very fabric and terrain that it was a part of. In that historic, a person is attached to something, like it or not, just because they were at the right place, at the right time, with the right stuff. That's what history is. Someone else could have done it, but they didn't. It's the matter of doing it first, and being the innovator. For instance, think about the DDT. That's one of a few basic moves that a wrestler is taught in school right next to the piledriver and the suplex. Jake Roberts invented that move. You see that in just about every match, but it's his finisher, it's his contribution to the sport, and it's so massively huge that it's easy to take that for granted.

In Douglas's case, he was the vehicle that was used to create something new: Extreme Championship Wrestling. Which is still going today, even if it is in a completely different way than it was intended to be originally. Vince McMahon is cashing in on the brand that Douglas forged and the rest of the ECW alumni including Paul Heyman, Joey Styles, and all of the wrestlers and characters that were involved gave life to by their hard work and innovative ideas. Like it or not, but ECW can stand without any of those originals being involved because of the work that was put into building the foundation in the first place. To say that Shane Douglas - that Troy Martin - was not a megalithic part of that, is beyond short sighted, it's revisionist history.

As far as the allegation made in the previous post that asserted that Shane Douglas was somehow less of a talent or not as entertaining because he didn't transition from the WCW to the WWE after the buyout: How do you know? How do you know he wasn't at least offered a contract by Vince McMahon? There's been nothing there to say to the contrary, and when Douglas left the WWF in the 1990's, it was one of the rare instances where it was done so amicably. It stinks of a WWE mark to prop up that age old argument that what one promotion has is better than the next.

It's simply a matter of preference in style and format that offsets the countless promotions from each other. The Coke can is different from the Pepsi can, but both are cola.

If Shane Douglas had decided to go out on the independent circuit and work with some of the up and comers in the business, because in his view, it was better for professional wrestling in general, who are we to argue? It wouldn't be the first time that Shane Douglas has done something simply to develop a wrestling promotion or talent. Nobody starts out in the "majors". Unless your dad is Vince McMahon, it's a long and hard road to even get to that point, and there's no guarantees of that elusive stardom. It's a total crap shoot that's just as much luck as it is skill. For every visible star of the squared circle, there is a story of where they came from and who trained them. Sometimes it takes just that one match to be recognized by a top promotion, or to provide a creative springboard for an otherwise "green" wrestler.

A person need only to look at the past title history of one Shane Douglas to really get an appreciation of just how expansive his career has been. Not just for the sake of the numerous titles that he has won, but by the yardstick of the kinds of wrestlers he has worked with over his career. Names like Eddie Gilbert start to emerge, Ricky Steamboat, Tito Santana, Shawn Michaels, Scott Hall, Chris Jericho, Bam Bam Bigelow, Ric Flair, of course Terry Funk and Sabu and a whole host of others that are either Hall of Famers or destined to be future Hall of Famers. That is the measuring stick that truly counts. Where has a person been? What have they done? What have they given to the sport and to the fans? Shane Douglas trumps just about everyone that you put in front of him that hasn't had a 30 or 40 year run in the business. That is success personified, and that is what makes him "The Franchise". It's not how he's been criminally underutilized by the big two (WCW or WWF/E - as if those are the only two promotions that count?), or their overrated, lackluster writing team (I'm looking at you Vince Russo and Ed Ferrara!). He's not Superman, but he's damn close.


...And that's an eternal original ECW mark's word on it.
 
Shane Douglas sucked man. What did he ever do besides the stuff he did in ECW. The highlight of his career was when he threw down the NWA title. OOOOH!!! IT takes a legend to do something like that dont it? And then he berates Ric Flair for years a wrestler who was light years better than him. Goes to WWF and flops couldnt even hang with Razor Ramon or Shawn Micheals. And if he was so good he wouldnt have had the IC title for only 15min. So to answer the question yes he was highly overrated.
 
Shane Douglas sucked man. What did he ever do besides the stuff he did in ECW. The highlight of his career was when he threw down the NWA title. OOOOH!!! IT takes a legend to do something like that dont it? And then he berates Ric Flair for years a wrestler who was light years better than him. Goes to WWF and flops couldnt even hang with Razor Ramon or Shawn Micheals. And if he was so good he wouldnt have had the IC title for only 15min. So to answer the question yes he was highly overrated.

1st of all Shane Douglas was one of da 1st wrestlers ever 2 put his opponents on da shelf! Including everybody's favorite Tommy Dreamer (Bummy Dreamer)!
 
No Offense to RVDGurl and JMT225. I love you guys, I love reading your posts because they are always insightful, but in this case you guys are dead wrong. I understand that you both love small promotions. ECW though... sucked, and it sucked hardcore. You can thank Shane Douglas for that.

Here is a guy who wants everything thrown to him on a silver platter. He thinks he's the shit when in fact he is just shit. You claim that he took an indy company, and took it to the 3rd highest promotion. Congrats, you were almost good enough. Shane Douglas is the epitome of a nothing superstar. If he was as good as you say he was how come he couldn't compete in WCW or WWE? RVD turned out just fine in WWE. So if Douglas is as good as you guys think he is, tell me...why didnt he turn out the way of RVD? It's because he is a talentless hack who whines and bitches way too much about his own inadequacies.

To me, Shane Douglas is the definition of overrated. In fact he is the most overrated performer of all time.
 
First off, I voted overrated yesterday before reading all of the posts.

#2. Yes, I was HUGE fan of ECW and still voted overrated.

#3. JMT and Mister Rob won this debate and had the best arguments in this entire post.

Now, I personally don't think he's overrated or underrated. After reading this post, I think that like many others, such as Sandman, Tommy Dreamer, and even Sabu and Raven, whether or not Shane Douglas is underrated or overrated depends on if you think ECW is underrated or overrated. Most of the people who say he is overrated focus mostly on his WCW and WWE career, as if that is the only way to be a legend in this industry. Dusty Rhodes' career in WWE was nothing to call home about but does that make he's overrated? Now, the reason I voted overrated is because I thought he had a little too much of an influence and too long of reigns in ECW. I don't think think he should have went over Bam Bam to regain the title for example. But it's really tough to stick to saying he's overrated because his promos were second only to maybe Taz IMO, and he had a lot of heat. I guess I said he was overrated because I always thought he was overrated in the ring. He didn't seem to be athletic, and I don't think he made up for it with enough technical skills. I mean what exactly WAS the man's style, anyway? I know some will say technical, but he really wasn't that technical IMO. Also....I never thought he had a great finisher for a World Champion.

So in summary, although JMT and Mister Rob won the argument, it's because people are judging his whole career based on WCW and WWE more than ECW. His INFLUENCE and RECOGNIZED IMPACT is TAKEN FOR GRANTED, but I think that his career in ECW is OVERRATED in the sense that he got away with a little more than what he was truly capable of. I know this post may seem a bit too ambivalent, but there it is.
 

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