I'm undecided on something Paglino has posted to the main page, help a bro out

[Good Golly It's Ollie]

Apologies for dragging up the main page ... but I need your halp to decide something.

http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/510695-update-on-a-john-cena-wwe-heel-turn?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Wrestlezonecom+%28WRESTLEZONE%29

Paglino: There you have it folks. The age old argument of whether or not John Cena turns heel in WWE is really an argument of creativity vs business. Which is an age old argument itself.

The viewers don’t care about merchandise numbers, or live event gates, or how much money someone makes for a company, they care about good storytelling and the most creative TV show possible. So yes, from a creative standpoint a John Cena heel turn should have happened a long time ago.

But from a business standpoint, and in the end it all comes down to money, John Cena must remain a babyface as long as it’s working financially.

Could the argument be made that a John Cena heel turn might eventually draw more viewers/money because it might re-interest fans who have tuned out? Maybe, but with Cena numbers so strong as a babyface, it’s a risk not worth taking.

Of course, if WWE put more confidence in its up-and-coming stars, and built new main event level talent, maybe they wouldn’t consistently have to rely on Cena being the top draw.

So Nick says on the main page that "yes, from a creative standpoint a John Cena heel turn should have happened a long time ago" but I feel mixed about this. On one hand, I think he's right. Creativity should not be held back by financial concerns. We're telling stories, dammit! And stories don't always follow the numbers. Don't cheapen the product in favour of brief and temporary profit.

On the other hand, a part of me goes, "well what would you do? If your company had incurred notable losses this year, wouldn't you be inclined to play it safe? Doesn't the money made off Cena merch help ensure the future of WWE, to some extent?"

So basically I don't know whether I lean more in favour of creativity, or business, on this one.

Now I know that "CENA SHUD TERN HEEL!" threads have been done to death, so don't come in here just to complain about that as you add nothing to the discussion. What I'm trying to get a decision on amongst the WZ userbase is whether creativity should come before business. What do you think?

 

[Slash-LN]

From a fan point of view it should always be about creativity. We have no financial interest in the company so their bottom dollar shouldn't be an issue to us. Because even if the promotion suddenly goes bankrupt and goes out of business there are other companies for us to watch and there are means to see those companies.

From a company point of view the bottom dollar should always be a priority for them. If they're making enough money off a face John Cena then it's understandable that they wouldn't want to risk changing anything. It works for them.

I would argue that a large portion of us don't care about the business part but we understand it.

So really it just depends on what side of the coin you're on. You can be on the creative side of things and want certain things but also understand the business mindset of things. It doesn't mean you have to agree with their choices.

 

[closet_fan]

Business always has to come first, but it does put a strain on creative when thinking up new ideas for how to use Cena and still keep it fresh. Which, lets face it, that's the biggest problem with Cena's character.

If he's making more on his merch than everyone else combined, plus shows make $60,000 more at the gate with him there, can't blame the WWE for keeping him face.

Yeah they can attempt a heel turn, hoping those who are against him will align with him and buy his stuff, but it's too much of a gamble.

I think most of us knew this already.

Hogan was past his prime and wasn't selling much merchandise when he turned. By then, Nash and Hall were the merch sellers. Along with others.

Austin was able to turn heel because the WWF had other faces to fall back on.

It's a scary thought for the WWE and how they are going to get along without Cena once his career is over. They better hope a few guys start catching on with the fans.

 

[L@RISANO]

From a fan point of view it should always be about creativity. We have no financial interest in the company so their bottom dollar shouldn't be an issue to us. Because even if the promotion suddenly goes bankrupt and goes out of business there are other companies for us to watch and there are means to see those companies.

From a company point of view the bottom dollar should always be a priority for them. If they're making enough money off a face John Cena then it's understandable that they wouldn't want to risk changing anything. It works for them.

I would argue that a large portion of us don't care about the business part but we understand it.

So really it just depends on what side of the coin you're on. You can be on the creative side of things and want certain things but also understand the business mindset of things. It doesn't mean you have to agree with their choices.

This. Hit the nail on the head.

As part of the viewing audience, obviously after seeing John Cena as the Superman Babyface who has now become stale(some would say been stale for very long), the Creative side is what counts.
Heel John Cena would present loads of new possibilities and storylines and has the "Potential"(KEY Word) to be of great interest to each and every fan of the WWE.


However, on the business side of things, Babyface John Cena continues to pull in the money through merchandise,etc. Thus, the risk of turning John Cena will be definitely seen as too difficult to take at this point, because:

1) He is already 50-50 anyways, he'll probably turn 50-50 the opposite way.
2) There isn't anyone as yet capable of taking over the mantle of the Face of the Company, though they seem to be building Superstars up currently.
3) With regards to merchandise especially, will the new demographic of fans(Cena will definitely be heel to kids who are his main SuperCena/Cenation followers) buy as much as his current fans?


Thus, I think in this debate;
To push Creativity would mean taking risks on the Business side of things, in the AE it worked brilliantly as the Creativity in Storylines were brilliant and the merchandise sales were through the roof.
However, with the industry as it is, and given some of the more public problems of the company, they probably just prefer to play it safe nowadays moreso than before, where the MNWs had a big role in maybe making Creativity > Business, at that time.

 

[GOOZEKING]

I believe cena will eventually turn heel but only in these 3 scenarios...
1) cena is getting old and tired and body can barely handle wrestling anymore so his last 6 months on being tv before taking a year break is turn heel just like they did with batista in 2010 just for like 4-6 months
2) a new face that can draw is built and takes over
3) either fans/or cena realistically snap and can't take face cena with the mixed reaction and boos anymore which is when fans start getting physical

 

[OneLoneSapper]

The thing to me is, if you run an entertainment company and you don't allow creative freedom and instead focus solely on the bottom line your entertainment business will eventually lose its audience. People won't want to tune in because there isn't anything interesting or compelling about your product.
And we are seeing this play out right now. Lots of people, myself and family included, have stopped watching WWE programming altogether because what is there for us as an audience to really watch? Their current problems aren't completely caused by their stagnant creativity, but it certainly isn't helping them.

 

[Navi]

Of course creativity should always win out when you're in the business of entertaining people. And there is something wrong when your biggest star is being held back because you might think T-shirt sales might slump. Doesn't say much for the product they are putting out there.

I've been to two Live events in the past few month, and I'll tell you that you can't get anywhere near the sales counters. The lines are a mile long, and the fans will pretty much buy anything that has anyone's name on it.

At one show I asked for a Shield shirt, they didn't have any. At the next show they had Hounds of Justice shirts, and they were selling out. Keep in mind the Shield had broken up by this time, but the shirts were selling out.

You see tons of kids in head to toe WWE stuff. Cena, Bryan, Orton you name it they will wear it. So I don't believe for one minute that a Cena heel turn would affect sales of merchandise at all. As long as it has a WWE superstar's name or picture on it, it will be bought and worn.

 

[Mudlup50]

Can we be serious for this? I don't know how financially stable the WWE is right now but I know it isn't as stable as a few years ago. So let's be content, Cena physically can't ruin the whole show

 

[CyberPunk]

Creativity vs Business. The age old war of ideas. Why do I say that? Because it is true. When you are in entertainment business, it's really difficult to draw a line. The real problem is how to be creative and yet be profitable.

Businesses are all about making money. How do you make money? In entertainment business, it is done by entertaining your audience. Whose merch will sell the most? Someone who draws interest, right? That means somewhere, face Cena draws interest. Will a heel Cena draw more interest? Difficult to tell because whatever we say would be painted in our own preference. The problem is in a business like WWE, personal preferences don't mean much.

Cena's heel turn at this time is a risky experiment. A company takes risk:
1. When they have shitload of money.
2. When they have basically nothing left (that means the last gasp).

From all reports I've read lately, WWE falls under none of these. So a risk for them is not worth it. Also, creativity should not be mistaken for entertainment. Heel Cena may be creative but there is no guarantee that it'll entertain enough to retain viewers. Of course, we'll not find out unless it's done. But from business point of view, at this time it's just not worth it.

 

[shafe_41]

Creativity vs. Business?

How is this even a question?

Would you rather make a movie with a basic premise that makes boatloads of money or would you rather make the most creative original movie in the world that nobody sees? It's a business. A for profit business. The WWE is here to make money and entertain. Not to be the most mind-boggling creative product on the planet. Money will win every single time. Cena stays face because it's BEST FOR BUSINESS!

 

[Rusty]

Now I know that "CENA SHUD TERN HEEL!" threads have been done to death, so don't come in here just to complain about that as you add nothing to the discussion. What I'm trying to get a decision on amongst the WZ userbase is whether creativity should come before business. What do you think?

Fuck being creative and screw what the IWC wants, that's what I say.

I've always been a business man so I can relate somewhat to this. But in a time where financially, the economy is suffering as a whole, the professional wrestling industry is no different. Let's face it, it's just not as "cool" as it once was. While I don't think that's the reason WWE is suffering compared to the Attitude Era, I think that wrestling, simply put, is not that popular anymore. There are SO many other forms of entertainment now, and with the internet allowing people to stream/watch other forms of television, wrestling has suffered, and will most likely continue to suffer.

With that being said, no matter HOW creative the WWE wants to be, not much will change for that foreseeable future, that I know. Look at TNA, tried soo hard to be different, 6 sided ring, a ladder king of the mountain reverse cage match (or whatever the hell they have in their main events these days), and it failed, miserably.

Plus, as already stated, some fans will hate Cena no matter what the hell he is. That's because they're idiots but that's beside the point. My point is, in such a tough time for the industry as a whole, why on EARTH would you change the one thing that's brought success and money to the company over the past decade. A Cena heel turn aint gonna lead to more merchandise sales, and it might not even work to get over a new babyface, as there's nobody on the current roster, apart from Daniel Bryan maybe, that connects with the audience as well as Cena did/does.

I'd enjoy a heel turn as much as the next guy would, but hey without successful "business decisions", there wouldn't be a WWE to make a "creative decision" such as this.

 

[closet_fan]

It's kind of the way people view Michael Bay films. A majority of the critics (us) absolutely hate his movies because there is no storyline, just action, CGI and CGI of action.

But yet almost all his movies make huge amounts of money, no matter how uncreative they are. So why change?

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I think Slash-LN ultimately summed it up nicely for most of us.

For me personally, I'm the realistic sort. I know that every decision that's made by any company for any reason has to be made because they feel it's what's in the best interest of business. That's not a knock on creativity or that something can't be both creative and profitable, we've seen WWE and other wrestling companies intertwine them both quite a bit over the years.

However, just because something looks interesting from a creative perspective doesn't automatically mean it's good. Remember when Daniel Bryan briefly joined The Wyatt Family? We didn't really see it coming and even though it was intriguingly interesting from a creative standpoint, it ultimately wasn't what we wanted. By "we", I'm speaking of fans as a whole because Daniel Bryan is someone that fans genuinely WANT to and ENJOY cheering for. Bryan's also one of the top merchandise sellers in the company and while some heels do move some merchandise, the bulk of money from merchandise comes from babyfaces. Bryan's stuff may not have been as overly colorful or flashy as Cena's, but it still sells very well.

It wouldn't bother me at all, personally, to see John Cena go heel. As a fan, I understand the desire to want to see Cena evolve into something different. As a realistic fan, however, I also understand WWE's reluctance to change things. As he currently is and has been for much of the past decade, John Cena rakes in tens upon tens of millions of dollars in merchandise sales for WWE. I read reports last year alleging that the "John Cena brand" generated about $100 million in revenue for WWE and that most definitely ain't chump change. When Coca Cola came out with New Coke in the mid 80s, created with a different formula, people were outraged. From a business perspective, Coca Cola & John Cena are both examples of the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy.

At the same time, and this is only my opinion, I don't believe Cena turning heel would be remotely the catastrophic happening that Vince McMahon fears it would be. When it comes to altering Cena or changing him to any appreciable degree, Vince McMahon is extremely conservative and reluctant. Vince suddenly got it in his head, for instance, that fans would "stop believing" in John Cena due to Lesnar's overwhelmingly dominant victory over him at SummerSlam. Based simply on what I've read and heard, fans aren't turned off by the notion of Cena being so vulnerable, they're highly intrigued. The notion of Cena having to sort of up his game, evolve to some degree, after suffering such a huge loss is an interesting one. Cena wouldn't even have to go heel, he could go the route of a tweener, alter his image a bit, take on much more of a harder edge, etc.

At the same time though, just because that's what I think on the subject doesn't mean that most fans would agree. That's another thing that management has to decide when it comes to creative decisions. Sometimes, taking a chance and making changes in the hopes of generating buzz and a heightened level of interest doesn't mean that chance and those changes will pay off. At the end of the day, whatever decision is made by any business has to be made with the notion that management believes it's what's best for business. They can't just do something because they think MIGHT be cool without considering whether or not there's any money to be made with the idea. It won't always be the right decision, but that's just how life works out.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

I think it's always funny when the WWE intones "Best for business" when financially, the WWE has made a number of very risky moves over the years, the most recent of which is the WWE Network. The person I can't figure out in all of this is Cena. The guy sure knows what side of his bread is buttered. I would think someone like him would be bristling at the idea that the ONLY way he can be successful is to remain a face; that it is unlikely that he could have a resurgence in his career and maintain his merchandising sales by turning heel. Basically, the WWE is saying "You're no Hulk Hogan. Hogan could turn heel, and get people who were tiring of him back onboard. We're afraid you can't do that."

Is Cena that satisfied with the current work he's doing and where he's at? I have a hard time imagining that. He's got an ego as do most guys who reach that level. You can see that the jeers he gets bother him to some degree when he's playing the face role. I'm surprised that he is not advocating more to take on the heel role and making the argument that he can maintain his own merchandise sales while boosting others at the same time.

I mean, really...this is a sad statement all around about the nature and fragility of the WWE.

 

[TheLoneCharles]

So basically, john cena isn't a gear in the machine. He is the machine. For years we all heard no star is bigger than the wwe. The entire business vs creative undermines all that. Creatively, your top star is being booed out of the building more often than not and he's a face. But he draws more merchandise than anyone to the point where it becomes a business decision. So basically, Cena is larger than the WWE is what we are being told.

 

[I_Like_All_Wrestling]

With WWE being a public company, it pretty much has to be business over creativity. And if you're going to have an argument that one guy is selling more merchandise than the rest of the roster combined, it's business.

The reason WWE is the professional wrestling company and a billion dollar business is because of their creativity. For sure. It's so much money that a "don't fix what ain't broke" mentality rules. And if you're saying that it's "broke" due to creative, well, the numbers just don't back you up.

 

[Kodo Sawaki]

Now I know that "CENA SHUD TERN HEEL!" threads have been done to death, so don't come in here just to complain about that as you add nothing to the discussion. What I'm trying to get a decision on amongst the WZ userbase is whether creativity should come before business. What do you think?

When it comes to WWE creativity is there for bussiness. If you are an artist and you dont care for bussiness you can allow creativity to come before bussiness. If you are multi million dollar company ofcourse that bussiness would come first and creativity is there to serve.

So Paglino is right from that standpoint. Why should WWE lose couple of million dollars because IWC wants Cena heel if the product now is more PG and can gain more if he remains face because all those kids would buy products. If they see that it would be better for bussiness they would do it instantlly. They dont see that, hence no heel turn.

So no, in WWE bussiness is way before creativity.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Even when WWE wasn't a publicly traded company it was always business first....you don't make money any other way. Creativity plays a role, but with anything you run risk reward scenarios. We've seen reports of what house show business without Cena the last few years (it's bad), he still gets cheered by the vast majority of fans, even with a loud minority on TV that like to ve disruptive, and he blows everyone away in merchandise sales. It's not even close.

In the end, there is no reason, especially with HHH still playing a lead villain role via The Authroity and Brock Lesnar as the your heel World Champ for Cena to be heel. Cena heel doesn't equal creativity, it equals bad for business!

 

[CasualWatcher]

As a fan... "Turn Cena heel!"

Objectively speaking, thinking about "what's really best for business", what makes sense business-wise... Yeah, screw it, I'm going with my opinion as a fan.

 

[mral82]

Why does Cena need to turn heel as Hogan went from Heel to Face To Heel to Face to Heel to Face To Heel To Face a few times, Stone Cold was a the 1st major tweener that was a Heel his whole career til WM 13 where the Double turn of Bret to Heel and Stone Cold happened and got over big time. All Cena should do is go tweener basically neutral Face nor Heel and attack like Stone Cold did as that'd be fresh as they could have him on a Losing Streak and majorly doubting and when Bryan comes back he could try to help Cena but Cena turns on Bryan to setup WM 31 Cena and Nikki vs Bryan n Brie. I think all Cena needs to do is become a Tweener as he'd get more ppl intrested. So basically a Tweak in Character.

 

[Slyfox696]

I haven't read every post in this thread, but if people actually think the "creative" option is to turn Cena heel, then people are really stupid. Turning Cena heel would not be creative, it would be unoriginal. Furthermore, it would have absolutely ZERO effect on storylines because, after all, heel Cena is still going to have to feud with guys he's already feuded with.

No, not only does it make business sense, it also makes much more "creative" sense to leave Cena where he is. Cena can work equally well against faces or heels. He has far more storylines available in his current role than he ever would as another generic heel.

Only stupid people think turning Cena heel for no better reason than to turn him heel makes sense.