I just realized how much I can't stand today's wrestling.

[Slyfox696]

This has nothing to do with Attitude, or gimmicks, or whatever else other people bitch about. This is strictly to do with actual in-ring work.

I've been watching the Macho Man DVD...and damn, the ring work of those guys is just so much better than today. Not only the wrestling, but the announcers calling the wrestling as well as the fans reacting to wrestling. I watched Savage's debut match, and I'd say he spent nearly 10 minutes just torturing the crowd, making them boo him. Then I watched his match with Bruno, and most notably, his famous WM 3 bout with Steamboat, and I just found myself thinking how incredibly realistic the matches were.

Unlike today's in-ring product, Savage's matches looked legitimate. Today wrestlers spend way to much time on flashy moves that are just completely ridiculous (for example, MVP's finisher, the Pedigree, etc.). I mean, those are moves that very clearly require the help of the opponent. Whereas if you take Savage's finisher, that requires ZERO work from opponent. Or Hogan's, or DiBiase or even Warriors. All of those things can be believably accomplished with no help from opponents.

The pacing is slower, but more realistic. The announcing is more play-by-play analysis, than calling moves or acting like an idiot. It's realistic, it's believable, and it's entertaining.

Sometimes I wish I was a wrestler, because I think once I got the fundamentals of it down, I could be so much better at it than those who are in it now.

Anyways, what are your opinions on today's in-ring product? Good? Bad? Entertaining but bad? Why do you think so many workers today suck so hard?

 

[Thriller Ant]

It's pretty simple what's changed, in my opinion. It's what that 'E' at the end of WWE stands for: Entertainment. Back then, they used storylines to further the wrestling. These guys were going to go out and try to beat each other, but since this happened, he's gonna try to beat him up a little more. Today, the wrestling furthers the storyline. Almost all storylines today start outside of the ring. Orton vs. the McMahons, Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Jericho, The Miz vs. John Cena, etc. The wrestling is added as an afterthought.

The in-ring work has changed because of the entertainment factor also. Back in the day, there weren't websites like these, there weren't smarks, or anything vaguely resembling the IWC. Kayfabe was still intact, and a vast majority of wrestling fans thought it was real. Since they thought it was real, the in-ring work reflected that, and was made as realistic as possible. Now, most fans know that it is staged (I hate calling it fake) and tune in solely for entertainment. That is why there are flashy moves and huge spots. If people want to see mat wrestling, they'll watch MMA. Most people today watch wrestling for the over-the-top soap opera it is. I personally still enjoy wrestling, but a couple of clicks away on youtube, I can see what this sport was originally about.

 

[Slyfox696]

[QUOTE="Lionheart" Thrill Jericho;1155872]The in-ring work has changed because of the entertainment factor also. Back in the day, there weren't websites like these, there weren't smarks, or anything vaguely resembling the IWC. Kayfabe was still intact, and a vast majority of wrestling fans thought it was real. Since they thought it was real, the in-ring work reflected that, and was made as realistic as possible. Now, most fans know that it is staged (I hate calling it fake) and tune in solely for entertainment. That is why there are flashy moves and huge spots. If people want to see mat wrestling, they'll watch MMA. Most people today watch wrestling for the over-the-top soap opera it is. I personally still enjoy wrestling, but a couple of clicks away on youtube, I can see what this sport was originally about.[/QUOTE]I understand what you're saying.

However, I feel that the wrestling back then was more entertaining than it is today. Wrestling 20 years ago wasn't all about mat wrestling. If you watch matches between the better workers, the matches moved at a pretty good rate usually. I think what makes wrestling enjoyable is when it IS treated as realistic, even if I know it's not. I think when the workers in the ring treat it as such, even if the fans know it's not real, it makes the overall match better.

And I think the reason we have big flashy spots is not solely for entertainment, I think it's because the guys doing them aren't good enough workers to get over with the fans any other way. And that is a bad sign for wrestling.

 

[Thriller Ant]

However, I feel that the wrestling back then was more entertaining than it is today. Wrestling 20 years ago wasn't all about mat wrestling. If you watch matches between the better workers, the matches moved at a pretty good rate usually. I think what makes wrestling enjoyable is when it IS treated as realistic, even if I know it's not. I think when the workers in the ring treat it as such, even if the fans know it's not real, it makes the overall match better.

I agree with that. Part of making a match look real, is treating it as such.This also runs into your next statement, but a lot of matches are spot fests, and the guys focus on getting from spot-to-spot rather than the realism of the match. I think that is why a lot of gimmick matches fail. Matches, such as the strap match at whatever PPV we just had, aren't realistic at all and cause me to lose interest. That is why I like cage matches and ironman matches. They are plausible fights that wrestlers could have.

And I think the reason we have big flashy spots is not solely for entertainment, I think it's because the guys doing them aren't good enough workers to get over with the fans any other way. And that is a bad sign for wrestling.

This varies on the guy. Some people throw Jeff Hardy in here, but I believe he has shown that he can work a mat based match, and well. Others, such as Shelton Benjamin, can't connect with the crowd, and have to perform outrageous stunts to get over. A man's style does have a huge impact on his crowd reaction, however. Hardy does do those moves to accent his slower offense, and the crowd likes that. A guy like Randy Orton gets tweener reactions at most places, but he works a solid, slow, textbook heel style in the ring, and gets hate from both the crowd and smarks.

 

[Miko]

Savage is a really high standard to compare people too, although that being said his level of ring work should be what wrestlers aspire too.

I dunno, far be it from me, a guy with a computer and internet connection to tell these guys how to do their jobs but todays wrestling isnt as entertaining as it used be, people rant about the crapness of guy's like Hulk Hogan but when questioned on what they'd rather watch it's usually something like Chris Sabin vs Sonjay Dutt in a most choreographed looking match of the year competition.

Sometimes I think wrestling does lack realism, then again I went beserk for The People's Elbow time and time again, but then I wanted The Rock to win and if the People's Elbow was going to do it then I was going to be a happy bunny. Glenn Gilberti once said on this very board that many of todays wrestlers are geeks, they think that good wrestling is armbars and flips, he might have a point.

Another fault I have with wrestling is that with all of these guys who think how many moves you know is the most important thing in the world you've got barely any people left that can play a character anyone gives a shit about. Shelton Benjamin being a good example.

I feel the need to say that there are wrestlers still who posses the ability to make people care, put on good matches without killing themselves with stupid spots and generally entertain. There just seems to be less of them than before.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I also sat there, impressed by Savage's heel psychology. When you say he avoided actually wrestling for ten minutes, you're not kidding. The guy teased and teased and teased up until the point you thought he couldn't tease any more, but he did. "Wow, how genius." was my initial thought.

Unfortunately, it was quickly followed by "Oh, this is actually pretty boring. I spent £18 to watch Randy Savage run about the ring taunting, eh?".

I don't think it's a case that today's wrestlers are incapable of emulating Savage and co.'s style, I think it's a case that, if they did, people wouldn't stand for it.

 

[GSM]

One of the things that over the years went a little bit over the edge in my opinion is the selling.

For example back in the 80s the guys sold an injury for a legitimate amount of time and their display of pain in the ring was just overall better than it is today.

Ok Hogans no selling was part of his gimmick and so was Warriors,so we don´t have to argue about that.

How can it be that VKM is seriously injured by Orton´s punt but Triple H returns in half the time. Ok they had to but logic ? No.

Also the overselling of signature moves of legends.

For example when Flair chopped Orton I thought "Come on that´s BS".

 

[Sivsyboi]

I remember that a couple of months ago i was watching WWE Vintage. I relised that I enjoy those matches so much more than I do with modern matches. I agree with you there.

 

[klunderbunker]

I know exactly what you mean. I've been on a DVD binge lately with mostly old school stuff and it comes down to one thing for me: everything today is rushed. The storylines back then would go on for months and months at a time before you would get that one big payoff match. The sad thing is it can still work so perfectly and it's such a simple formula. The proof is in Miz vs. Cena. It started off with a bunch of promos that Cena never responded to, as Miz built up heat on himself and got noticed. It's been going for about three months now and we're FINALLY getting the match. The key to it all: they've barely, if at all, touched each other, let alone been in the same ring other than Monday's promo. That is so simple and so basic that we're chomping at the bit to see them fight. It's simple really: the longer you talk about something but never give it to us, the more we'll want it. You have to earn the payoff, and that makes it all the sweeter. Now "feuds" consist of a match being announced, two weeks of staredowns and sneak attacks, a pull apart brawl, and then the match. That is apparently a feud now. It's a shame really, because like I said, it's so easy to get right but apparently no one in the WWE has a lick of patience anymore, so we get what you see now.

 

[Thriller Ant]

KB, you forgot the 1 TV match that ends in DQ or the tag team match with 2 other random guys that ends under weird conditions. But you are exactly right. I blame this on the Monday Night Wars. If you look back, these two companies were in a blood feud, trying to get a leg up on each other. They needed money to stay on top, so more and more pay-per-views were created, most notably the In Your House series you have been reviewing. The need to fill all of these PPVs is why feuds are so rushed. You don't just need buys for the big 4 PPVs, you need buyrates for The Bash, Backlash, etc. that can't rely on name value. As much as it may ruin the product sometimes, professional wrestling in a business, and the goal of every business is to make money. I wish that they could have the long feuds, like the Michaels/Jericho feud, more often, but today's product isn't built for it and that sucks for fans of wrestling.

 

[z99zazn]

I think to an extent the quality of wrestling has gone down, especially in the WWE. Mainly, I think this has to do with some of the guys they've lost over the past few years. Chris Benoit is always going to be reguarded as one of the best technical guys of his time, and they lost him while he still had some time. Angle jumped ship over to TNA, and that is another guy that is right up there with Benoit. A lot of people miss the way wrestling was before, but I still think the WWE has some good workers and wrestlers. Wrestling has just changed so much throughout the years.

Comparing Macho Man's time in the WWE with right now, there is just such a huge difference. No longer is wrestling about the actual wrestling, but it is now about entertainment, at least in the WWE. If you want to see actual wrestling, a lot of people will turn on ROH. I for one, can appreciate a good match, but at the same time, I love hearing a well-done promo about the same. I think a lot of fans feel this way, and WWE reflects that.

 

[CaptainCavendish]

I will always miss professional wrestling of the 70's and 80's, but I can still enjoy the wrestling of today just as much. I just don't like much in the way of storylines and short title reigns, but I can get past it because I love the sport as a whole and I love watching PPV's and I love attending the live shows, theres nothing like it especially if your going in a group. While I agree that today's wrestling isn't as good as WWF or NWA of the late 70's and early 80's, I still love it and most likely always will.

 

[JenovasWitness]

Randy Savage also had the advantage of coming up through the wrestling business when it was still based on territories. This gave him the ability to work with a large range of workers and really hone his craft before he even set foot in a WWF ring and get in front of a camera.

Some of today's wrestlers spend a year or two in FCW or OVW before it and then get the call to come up to the WWE. The transition, I assume, can be jarring as the WWE stage is a rather large one that will expose pretty much any weakness that you have as a performer. We just have to give some of the younger up and comers a little bit of time to grow accustomed to there new surroundings and really come into their own skill and character-wise.

 

[Mustang Sally]

I will always miss professional wrestling of the 70's and 80's, but I can still enjoy the wrestling of today just as much.

That's a very reasonable sentiment. Fact is that the nature of the beast has changed; in the past the majority of the fans were actually there for the wrestling. They liked mat wrestling, story-telling and matches that were long in length. Today, I feel most of the fans are there for the spectacle, not the in-ring action. They want short matches and some cheap pops that end the match. When a match starts going too long (like over 5 minutes!) you can glance at the fans at ringside and see how many are looking away from the ring, talking with others .......and some are even on their damn cell phones. These same people would never have attended wrestling events in the 70's and 80's.

Now, everything I just said makes it seems as if I'm putting down today's fans. It's not so, though....... there's just been a big change in people's perception of wrestling and the industry has moved along with it. If the reasons that people today go to wrestling shows is different from the past, then it's all good. Times change.

 

[SinCityBlitz]

I don't think it's a case that today's wrestlers are incapable of emulating Savage and co.'s style, I think it's a case that, if they did, people wouldn't stand for it.

This is 100% accurate. Sure wrestling has changed but it changed because the fans changed. People are no longer going to take a guy running around outside the ring for 10 minutes.


Whoever said that the Monday Night Wars were responsible was right. While they did good for the business they also did some bad too. As well as ECW. ECW set the bar so high which is why a lot of guys have spot fest matches today.

The times have changed and wrestling went right along with it.

 

[Razor]

This has nothing to do with Attitude, or gimmicks, or whatever else other people bitch about. This is strictly to do with actual in-ring work.

I've been watching the Macho Man DVD...and damn, the ring work of those guys is just so much better than today. Not only the wrestling, but the announcers calling the wrestling as well as the fans reacting to wrestling. I watched Savage's debut match, and I'd say he spent nearly 10 minutes just torturing the crowd, making them boo him. Then I watched his match with Bruno, and most notably, his famous WM 3 bout with Steamboat, and I just found myself thinking how incredibly realistic the matches were.

Unlike today's in-ring product, Savage's matches looked legitimate. Today wrestlers spend way to much time on flashy moves that are just completely ridiculous (for example, MVP's finisher, the Pedigree, etc.). I mean, those are moves that very clearly require the help of the opponent. Whereas if you take Savage's finisher, that requires ZERO work from opponent. Or Hogan's, or DiBiase or even Warriors. All of those things can be believably accomplished with no help from opponents.

The pacing is slower, but more realistic. The announcing is more play-by-play analysis, than calling moves or acting like an idiot. It's realistic, it's believable, and it's entertaining.

Sometimes I wish I was a wrestler, because I think once I got the fundamentals of it down, I could be so much better at it than those who are in it now.

Anyways, what are your opinions on today's in-ring product? Good? Bad? Entertaining but bad? Why do you think so many workers today suck so hard?

I think the wrestlers have simply let the moves get away from them. Back in Hogan's day, that Leg Drop was deadly. Clotheslines fucking hurt. A move from the top rope was "Holy shit, if he lands that it's over." And the Piledriver? It was done.

Nowadays you have wrestlers who do practically every move from the top rope. You have wrestlers who do dropkicks just because. The killer moves of yesteryear were completely killed in the way of intensity, and had to be replaced by new moves. Sadly, they haven't done a very good job at finding new ones.

Though I will give credit to the Piledriver. That is probably the one move that is still alive as it was years ago. When Taker hits that, it's over. Doesn't matter who you are. ..Unless you're Edge. or HBK. But for the most part, it's held it's majesty. So to speak.

All these over the top moves get annoying. Especially when you see an entire 6 minute match full of "Jump, kick. Jump, punch. Jump, land. Roll around. Jump, pin." I have the faith though. Even with the over the top moves, wrestlers like Cena are keeping it grounded. The power wrestlers, basically. Except for Batista and his damn Batista Bomb. and Triple H, barring the Pedigree. It's when you get spot wrestlers like Benjamin that I just wanna punch someone in the face.