I Have A Feeling.......

[Jack-Hammer]

....that we're going to get Punk vs. Ryback on Raw tomorrow night or for the go home show before Hell in a Cell. I know I said something similar a month or so ago regarding Punk vs. Sheamus. Though we did get the match eventually.

At a house show, I think this past Friday, Punk & Ryback had a match. According to every report I've read, the match was well received and was a strong back & forth encounter. It ended with Punk hitting a low blow on Ryback and getting disqualified. Punk then got on the mic and said that he was the Best in the World and that he'll take on John Cena at Hell in a Cell. Ryback then hit his finisher and sent the crowd home happy.

I think that Punk will ultimately choose Cena to face at HIAC tomorrow night. Ryback's untested overall and he's not ready to be WWE Champion, I don't think anyone can seriously say otherwise. There's no DQ in the Cell matches so somebody's got to lose. Punk is a major key player in WWE right now and are counting on him to help deliver big paydays for the Royal Rumble and WrestleMania. Having him lose to possibly derail that. If WWE has Ryback lose, then Ryback looks bad because he choked in the first match in which he was really and truly tested.

Even though Cena is injured, I think WWE will go with it. It's risky as Cena could aggravate the injury all the more as Cell matches are always physical. As for Vince, you know he's going to be carrying a grudge against Punk for their "fight" last week on Raw. I think Vince will still book Punk to face Ryback in a match on Raw, either tomorrow night or for the go home show, as a kind of punishment for his actions as of late.

If such a match does go down, there probably won't be a definitive winner. I don't see WWE doing anything to lower the stocks of either guy. I'd say the booking will be similar to their house show match in which both guys ultimately look good but with Punk doing something to get himself disqualified, even if it looks like he doesn't really have to.

 

[closet_fan]

It will be interesting to say the least. If Ryback looks good during the match, if it happens, they could make the call to have it be Ryback. If he flubs, they could go Cena.

The WWE is in a lose-lose situation if they end up having to go with Ryback and Punk at HIAC. Punk won't lose, but will that loss for Ryback kill the momentum he's having? Some say yes, some say no. They can't have Punk lose because it's way too soon to get Ryback in the championship role. He simply isn't ready.

As for Cena, I just don't know if he is going to be ready. If this was a normal match, Punk would be able to carry it. But since it's a cage match, that's going to be rough going on Cena's elbow.

I get the feeling they are going to go with Punk/Cena and pray he is ready by next weekend. If not, they'll have someone unknown jump Cena in the back right before the PPV and have to make it Ryback instead.

My worst fear is they throw Cena in as a guest referee. I don't think anyone wants to see that. Plus, it's too predictable.

If anything, it's great to see so much unpredictability so close to a main event.

 

[HBsam31]

I also see it going down like this to. I myself am surprised at how well received Ryback has been by the fans. I don't think they will do anything to jeopardize that right now. They will give the fans a taste of Punk vs Ryback with Punk getting himself dqed. They wouldn't risk putting the two of them in a cell because like Jack Hammer said, someone has to lose. Punk is their go to guy right now and I see him holding the title at least until the Rumble, and I don't think Ryback is ready to carry the WWE Championship yet anyway. So like the OP said I think we will get a taste of this match this week or next, and Punk will face Cena in the cell whether he is 100% ready to go or not.

 

[justinsayne]

At a house show, I think this past Friday, Punk & Ryback had a match. According to every report I've read, the match was well received and was a strong back & forth encounter. It ended with Punk hitting a low blow on Ryback and getting disqualified. Punk then got on the mic and said that he was the Best in the World and that he'll take on John Cena at Hell in a Cell. Ryback then hit his finisher and sent the crowd home happy.

Well I was thinking they would go with the triple threat option until you said that he annouced at house shows he's chosing Cena. I think the triple threat would have been the better way to go, it doesn't put as much pressure on Cena as he's able to roll out o fthe match of bits of time, & just let Ryback & Punk take the action, & then he can interject himself back in whenever. They could also have Punk pin Cena which would technically mean nobody has yet been able to defeat Ryback via pinfall or submission.

Ryback's untested overall and he's not ready to be WWE Champion, I don't think anyone can seriously say otherwise.

He can't be any worse than Batista or Brock, & he's certainly leaps & bounds better than fucking Khali, & even if he won it's not like he'd be holding the belt more than a few months, as he would be either dropping it back to Punk or to Cena before the RR, I can't imagine WWE has any interest whatsoever in a Ryback vs. Rock program.

There's no DQ in the Cell matches so somebody's got to lose. Punk is a major key player in WWE right now and are counting on him to help deliver big paydays for the Royal Rumble and WrestleMania. Having him lose to possibly derail that. If WWE has Ryback lose, then Ryback looks bad because he choked in the first match in which he was really and truly tested.

So if Ryback loses to the guy that's beaten everyone in the past 10 months (I think), that's going to derail his momentum? If Ryback taking a single loss in a no DQ environment causes him to lose any momentum at all then he's not nearly as good as everyone wants to believe he is then.

Even though Cena is injured, I think WWE will go with it. It's risky as Cena could aggravate the injury all the more as Cell matches are always physical.

Cena has been out rehabbing his arm & letting it heal for about 6 weeks, at this point it should be fine for HIAC. I expect Cena & Punk to play up the injury angle with Punk targeting the injured arm, & Cena selling it like he's in agonizing pain but refuses the give up. I also think the injury is why Punk will choose Cena, thinking he can use it to his advantage. I think ultimately Cena is going to be fine, he & Punk are pretty good at this, & know how to take care of their opponent in the ring.

As for Vince, you know he's going to be carrying a grudge against Punk for their "fight" last week on Raw. I think Vince will still book Punk to face Ryback in a match on Raw, either tomorrow night or for the go home show, as a kind of punishment for his actions as of late.

I don't think Vince wants to waste this match on free TV, I think he'd rather save a one on one match between Punk/Ryback for PPV, I could see him sticking Punk in a handicap match vs. Ryback & Cena though, & making him choose after the match.

 

[TheLoneCharles]

If Ryback VS Punk takes place, the only way Ryback comes out looking good is if Lesnar comes out and destroys him. Very simple, yet effective.

 

[j2dlyc]

The simple was to get around it would be to have someone interfere. For example, if it was Punk vs Ryback, mid way through when Ryback has momentum, have Wade Barrett come out , break into the cell and attack ryback, costing him the win. Barrett could claim he did it as he feels he is being overlooked and deserves a title shot first, Ryback losing to punk wouldnt make him look weak as it isnt a clean victory, and most importantly it gives two of the biggest up and comers in the WWE a solid fued to go into the winter with. Punk meanwhile has overcome another PPV and carries the strap into the royal rumble where he faces the Rock!

 

[MTL722]

I think booking Ryback vs Punk for Raw would be similar, not the same, but similar to WCW booking Hogan Vs Goldberg for Nitro. I brought this up in a recent thread about Goldberg and it also applies here. WCW wasted potentially the biggest match in its history on a Monday Nitro because all they cared about was ratings. Such a match could have pulled in a record buyrate but instead was wasted

Ryback Vs Punk, although neither are at the same height that Goldberg and Hogan were at, could be a big money match if it was built correctly. They're booking Ryback to perfection in my eyes. The fans are 100% behind this guy. Last weeks Raw when Ryback came out to save McMahon was the first time in a long time where i actually jumped out of my seat. They tested the crowd to see how much they'd respond and the place went INSANE. I havent seen a crowd that riled up since Chicago at last years MITB

If they were to set up this match for Raw I 100% agree that we won't get a clean finish to it. WWE knows what they have in Ryback and they no better than to kill this guys momentum. If its booked as the main event I seriously doubt we even see 5 minutes of these 2 and if we do its a mistake. Punk will choose Cena and we will see Ryback at Hell in a Cell in some capacity.

My prediction is one thats been said alot on these forums. If Ryback wants to take out the top dog, the top dog isn't Punk. The top dog is Cena. WWE will always refuse to allow Cena to lose clean to Punk. Bring in Ryback the same way they did Kane back in '97. Have him take out Cena and Punk retains. However, the best thing about taking out Cena who is loved and hated, it won't turn Ryback full heel. He can still feud with Punk as long as they make it clear the 2 are not aligned. Maybe destroy them both and pull Punk on top of Cena for the pin

 

[Syborgg]

To those suggesting that CM Punk should face and defeat Ryback in the cell, let me stop you right there. The thing is, Punk is not much bigger than those jabronies that Ryback has been stacking 2 at a time on his shoulders. If you seriously think it would be believable for Punk to beat Ryback without some sort of outside help, then you've been drinking the Straight Edge kool-aid for too long. Sure his skillset is far greater than those jabronies, but how does a guy Punk's size stop a runaway freight train?

As for the PPV, I think the triple-threat idea is the best for everybody. If they want Punk to retain, basically have almost the same finish that they did at SummerSlam. Maybe have Ryback "Shell Shock" Cena, then have Punk sneak in for the pin somehow. This way Punk pins Cena, but Cena still can argue that it was Ryback that beat him and not Punk. Also Ryback still looks strong and dominating, but loses without getting pinned.

 

[mooseman]

If Ryback VS Punk takes place, the only way Ryback comes out looking good is if Lesnar comes out and destroys him. Very simple, yet effective.

This is the best case scenario. Storyline wise it makes sense because of the Paul Heyman connection. Set up Lesnar vs Ryback at Survivior Series with Ryback winning to really solidify him.

 

[theViper]

Blah, blah, blah. Ryback will look weak. Blah, blah, blah. Are you kidding me? Look at what happened at the event. He was hit with a low blow and CM Punk was DQ'd. It's going to be Hell In a Cell, where EVERYTHING is legal. He could hit Ryback with a foreign object and knock him out, then get the quick pin which would not make him look weak, but handed his first loss which would then be SOMETHING ELSE CM Punk could say that he has accomplished that no one else did that solidifies himself as the best in the world, and would garner even more heat.

 

[Wally Dangerously]

I think we'll see this match tomorrow night as well, and I'm looking forward to it. I wasn't impressed with Ryback at first, both because he looked unsafe when wrestling jobbers and because I couldn't get the Cornfed Meathead image out of my head. He's starting to grow on me now though.

I agree that Ryback is not ready for the WWE Championship yet and that a loss at HIAC would cause him to lose some steam. He needs to win the IC championship first, preferably before or at Wrestlemania, and a feud with Miz would be just what the doctor ordered.

Also, Cena's injury gives him an excuse dfor losing at HIAC. Unfortunately though, I think Cena/Punk at HIAC will be lackluster because WWE will have to be cautious with Cena.

 

[JaylisJayP]

The site just reported Cena is having another medical evaluation Monday, so I'm sure that and that alone will determine who Punk faces. They wouldn't be going through all this trouble to "rush" Cena back if they had a real, serious intention of letting Ryback go.

I'd like to see Ryback, but is it too soon? I don't want to see his streak end, but I also don't want to see Punk lose the belt...for a long time. I want to see him beat Rock at RR and retain at WM and break Cena's consecutive days record.

 

[Fansince1992]

Not sure of the full ruling in Hell in a Cell matches, but they could end the match in a similar fashion to Night of Champions.

If it is Ryback vs Punk in the cell they could pin each other in a way that the match ends a draw. Ryback keeps his unbeaten streak, and the title stays on Punk.

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

This most obvious finish I think is like Mysterio vs. Sabu at ECW: ONS II. That the finish is a non finish since this being HIAC Ryback will do something insane that will incapacitate both guys causing a draw or non-finish.

I see this being the only option since a loss for Ryback will hurt his momentum while it's too early for CM Punk to loose his title since he hasn't been a heel for too long.

The site just reported Cena is having another medical evaluation Monday, so I'm sure that and that alone will determine who Punk faces. They wouldn't be going through all this trouble to "rush" Cena back if they had a real, serious intention of letting Ryback go.

I say with Ryback's push it will be Ryback. Sure it's HIAC but I think the WWE can afford to hold off Cena/Punk one-on-one just a little longer. Plus even if Cena is cleared to be in action it's best to not rush him back since he could get re injured. There's still Survivor Series and TLC. I can totally see Survivor Series being Team Punk vs. Team Cena with a stipulation of Cena wins he get's a title shot at TLC. Leading to a TLC Match for the WWE Title, sure it's no HIAC but it does come close.

 

[Silver Fox]

Ive actually really enjoyed Ryback being introduced into this rivalry, even if it wasnt planned. Its a breath of fresh air to whats become a stale main event. Having said that, it is to soon to put the title on him. However what they cannot do is have him go back to squashing jobbers week in week out after this is over, he needs a good feud going forward. The best option for HIAC is to have a triple threat match. Have Ryback hit Cena with his finisher, punk nails him from behind and scores the pinfall on Cena. Everyone wins then.

 

[HBKistheHOF]

I would have completely agreed with you if the situation didn't look so dim right now.

John Cena is healing slower than expected & will need another medical exam before being booked for HiaC. The Cell would just bang him up more & at this point the only real options for Cena even being involved is:

-Triple Threat CM Punk vs. Ryback vs. John Cena (With Vince as a possible guest Referee)
or
-CM Punk vs. Ryback w/John Cena as Special Guest Referee

And I have heard alot of talk about keeping Cena out of it completely for his health & to save the culmination of Punk/Cena feud for another day.

And while I definately see Cena at the HiaC PPV, I don't think we will see him in a very physical capacity, so why involve him in the match at all? besides maybe a video of him on the screen.

I personally think we will get CM Punk vs. Ryback w/Vince McMahon as Special Guest Referee at the HiaC PPV. So I don't see them spoiling this match on TV.

 

[#heel420]

This is where I would go with it Hell In The Cell Punk Vs. Ryback with Cena as Special Ref. Have Ryback win cleanly in a good 25-30 minute match. Then the next night on Raw CM Punk is crazed that his potentially record breaking title reign is over and this pushes him over the edge. He cuts a scathing promo on how he feels Cena is to blame for his loss even though he lost cleanly. He declares that he has a rematch clause in his contract and he taking advantage of that tonight. At some point in the show he attacks Cena leaving him laid out in the back. Main Event Time Ryback Vs. CM Punk, again another solid match. Towards the end the ref gets bumped, Cena runs out with a chair or a pipe looks to strike Punk to gain revenge from earlier in the night but Punk ducks and Ryback gets blasted by Cena. Punk gets up and delivers a GTS to Cena, then throws him out of the ring. Punk then applies the anaconda vise to an unconscious Ryback. The ref comes to, lifts Ryback's arm three times but he's out. The ref calls for the match to be stopped and you're new WWE Champion CM Punk.

I know its not the greatest, but it's an idea. IMO it's better than what WWE creative has been coming up with lately.

 

[Midnite Express 2009]

I have a feeling that Ryback will turn against John Cena. Remember, The Rock is coming back in a few months (at Royal Rumble) to face the WWE Champion, and I believe that they will keep the title on Punk until then, maybe before. Cena needs a fresh opponent because honestly, it's getting real old & stale with CM Punk (which is not the fault of Punk's whatsoever). Getting Ryback in a feud with John Cena makes sense on so many levels. It gives him the exposure he needs. I'm sure WWE feels that hell, if he doesn't kill John Cena then he should be okay moving forward. Also, pairing Ryback up with Punk as his bodyguard would be great because I can see WWE going with a small heel stable with Heyman at the helm. I know, I know, WWE said they weren't doing anymore stables, BUT when I was watching Raw last night and saw the ending, I noticed that #1, Ryback never really went over and shook John Cena's hand for helping him, which is usually something two faces do automatically. #2 I realized that John Cena is still looking hurt and while they're certainly going to put him in the match, they're NOT going to give him the title.

Having CM Punk lose to a hurt John Cena, after nearly a year as the champion makes no sense & will basically crap on all that he's accomplished and is still trying to accomplish. I want to see Ryback make a heel turn because his character will get stale without pretty soon, imo. I think that ultimately Ryback's presence will be made at HITC and he's gonna come out toward the end of the match, act as if he's going to give his finisher to Punk but instead give it to John Cena and walk away. I pray this happens, okay maybe not pray. But I certainly hope this happens because Lord knows Cena vs Punk can't happen for another month beyond this. Over saturation to the max! Let's see what happens next Sunday!

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Blah, blah, blah. Ryback will look weak. Blah, blah, blah. Are you kidding me? Look at what happened at the event. He was hit with a low blow and CM Punk was DQ'd. It's going to be Hell In a Cell, where EVERYTHING is legal. He could hit Ryback with a foreign object and knock him out, then get the quick pin which would not make him look weak, but handed his first loss which would then be SOMETHING ELSE CM Punk could say that he has accomplished that no one else did that solidifies himself as the best in the world, and would garner even more heat.

I do stand by that Ryback will look weak. Even though facing Punk in a Cell match, it's still Ryback's first true test. Whether he's hit with a foreign object, he's rolled up with a handful of tights, Punk uses the ropes or half the locker room empties to help Punk retain; this is still Ryback's first true challenge in WWE. Building him up as this near unstoppable force by constantly having him wrestle jobbers in 2 minute matches just doesn't have impact if Ryback gets in the ring and is unable to beat his first true test.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Well I was thinking they would go with the triple threat option until you said that he annouced at house shows he's chosing Cena. I think the triple threat would have been the better way to go, it doesn't put as much pressure on Cena as he's able to roll out o fthe match of bits of time, & just let Ryback & Punk take the action, & then he can interject himself back in whenever. They could also have Punk pin Cena which would technically mean nobody has yet been able to defeat Ryback via pinfall or submission.

I didn't consider that at the time. It's something WWE could do, but I doubt it happening.

He can't be any worse than Batista or Brock, & he's certainly leaps & bounds better than fucking Khali, & even if he won it's not like he'd be holding the belt more than a few months, as he would be either dropping it back to Punk or to Cena before the RR, I can't imagine WWE has any interest whatsoever in a Ryback vs. Rock program.

Sure he can be worse than Batista or Brock Lesnar. They actually had some big matches against some big league opponents before challenging and becoming World Champions. Thus far, Ryback hasn't. Ryback has momentum right now, but it's only just now that he's started to develop any. Ryback is someone thats really only just now starting to connect with WWE fans and that's good. Having a match against a top guy in which he looks good but doesn't make the other guy look weak either would only further Ryback's momentum without it being too much too soon.

So if Ryback loses to the guy that's beaten everyone in the past 10 months (I think), that's going to derail his momentum? If Ryback taking a single loss in a no DQ environment causes him to lose any momentum at all then he's not nearly as good as everyone wants to believe he is then.

As I said, this is Ryback's first real test. Whether it's against CM Punk or Dolph Ziggler or John Cena or Alberto Del Rio or Big Show; Ryback will look weak no matter the environment if he's not able to come out of his first "real match" in WWE looking strong. That doesn't necessarily have to mean a straight up pinfall win, but I just see Ryback's stock going down if he loses in his first "real match" in WWE against someone he's not going to beat in 2-3 minutes. If Ryback had had some "real matches" and "real feuds" and had generally been tested inside the ring in any significant way by some major players in WWE, then it wouldn't be an issue. But WWE has decided to go the Bill Goldberg route with Ryback, including having the vast majority of wrestlers that comprise his streak be jobbers that he obliterates in a few minutes. Before Goldberg was WCW World Heavyweight Champion, he did have at least a few matches against guys who were actual players in WCW to build on. Ryback doesn't have that safety net. So WWE's only real options in a one on one match between Punk vs. Ryback at HIAC are to have Punk lose & detail the current momentum Punk has with the longest World Championship run WWE has seen in years or to have Ryback lose in what could be viewed as his first "real match" in WWE. It looks kind of lose-lose to me right now. WWE can't afford to do much to ultimately make Punk look weak if they're expecting him to help bring in some big paydays in 2013 and, as I said, in the here and now, having Ryback lose a one on one match in any environment right now will lower his stock because he hasn't done squat and he's only now starting to build momentum.

 

[Sexcellence of Sexecution]

If they go with Ryback vs. Punk inside the Cell they could do a spot where Ryback throws/slams Punk through the Cell wall. This would make Ryback look strong, but would also create an opening for potential interference that could cost Ryback the match and his undefeated streak. Losing to the WWE Champion because of outside interference doesn't make Ryback look weak and you now have a feud for him to be involved with going into Survivor Series. I think if Ryback was a man on a mission, looking for revenge against a heel, the crowd would really get invested into that and want to see Ryback kick the heel's ass. At Survivor Series we could then see Punk vs. Cena in an Ironman Match for the WWE Title, concluding their feud. Punk would win and Cena would finally show him the respect he deserves, and Punk would then go on to defend his Title against the Rock at the Rumble.

As far as which heel could interfere in the Cell and cost Ryback the match, one person said earlier that it could be Wade Barrett, whose motivation would be that he deserved the Title shot over Ryback. That's one option that could work, or they could go with the Miz since I'm pretty sure he and Ryback have some unfinished business (I think they started a feud between them but never really followed up on it). Having the Miz screw over Ryback and then play the chickenshit heel role when Ryback comes after him would be a good angle. Miz could then keep taking the cheap way out of their matches and the fans would be chomping at the bit to see Ryback just destroy him and win. You could actually stretch that angle out for months and have it finally end at WrestleMania with Ryback beating Miz to win the Intercontinental Championship. One last option would be to have a team like the Prime Time Players or the Band screw Ryback over and cost him his streak/the Title to try and make a name for themselves. At Survivor Series you could have Ryback vs. All 3 members of the Band in an Elimination Match, it would be like Ryback was his own Survivor Series Team. Personally, I think Miz would be the better choice, but that's just another possibility I'll throw out there.

 

[cymraeg_cowboy]

I've been thinking about the tripple threat idea from the first time Ryback stepped out against Punk. However I wouldn't have it be a match that is enforced on Punk only for him to squirm out a win.

Start Raw this week with Heyman and Punk backstage talking about the situation. Punk is laying out the arguement for both guys - either way he can see positives and negatives (Cena being injured, but how dangerous is a wounded caged animal; Ryback's inexperience vs his freakish strength). Punk just doesn't know what to do and is genuinely worried for his title....... heyman listens intently then looks at Punk 'I think I may have an idea!' he then forces the camera man out of the room and shuts the door.

Later in the show Vinnie Mac comes down to the ring and calls out Punk for his decision. Cena interupts....he doesn't want to miss this. He too calls out Punk. Ryback's music hits...he comes down to the ring too. Now all three wait for Punk.

Punk's music hits - he appears with Heyman at the top of the ramp - short monologue about how the decision was completely unfair blah blah - Vinnie Mac interupts - 'hurry up and pick your opponent or you'll hear the word 'You're fired!' - Punk looks down at the ring - 'Ryback - you think you're ready for the best in the world - lets find out' the crowd explode Ryback leads a feed me more chant. Punk - 'wait...stop..stop... feed you more? I Intend to....cos in the cell you'll be facing me and.....John Cena' Punk drops the mike and walks out Heyman grins at Vinnie Mac and follows. Cena and Ryback turn and face each other whilst Vinnie looks back and forth between them with the shocked expression that only Mr. Mcmahon can pull off. The show ends with an intense staredown between Cena and Ryback.

Yes the outcome of the Cell match will be predictable - Punk pins Cena after Ryback has had a good go at destroying them both - but it is the only way that I can see where no-one loses. Cena loses becaus of his injury, Ryback leaves the cell without being pinned or defeated one on one. Punk looks like a strong intelligent heel for manipulating the situation rather than cowardly and lucky like so many of the heels seem to be booked lately, and Heyman retains his genius persona.

 

[UltimateHitman]

I like j2dlyc's idea with the interjection of Barrett. Makes Barrett/Ryback a solid feud for a few months, and takes care of the whole thing all around. Gets Barrett back into the bigger picture without throwing him directly into a title program right off the bat.

The Lesnar interference idea is pretty solid as well.

 

[SacredMesa]

If they go with Ryback there is one way I can see them ending without killing Rybacks momentum.


Bring in Brock Lesner to take out Ryback and enable Punk to get the win. Really this could be something brilliant as it would get so much heat on Punk/Lesner/Heyman for ending the streak so soon and in such a way and could create a strong survivor series moment with Ryback/Cena/McMahon/Triple H against Punk/Lesner/Big Show/Heyman. You could also replace McMahon and Heyman with others like Ziggler and Sheamus. Just an idea but really it should just be better for Cena to do it if at all possible.

 

[Trill Co$by]

They can't have Punk lose because it's way too soon to get Ryback in the championship role. He simply isn't ready.

Bullshit!

Ryback has all the momentum he's going to get. He's over, the crowd is ready for him to cash in on some gold, and if that means the WWE title then so be it. It's going to suck considering it'll be the end of Punk's reign, but there's no denying the momentum Ryback has. If there's any time to pull the trigger on giving Ryback the title, it's now... if WWE doesn't then they can ruin themselves by having Ryback lose momentum and soon be just another nobody. Ryback's been building since at least April, and if that's not enough time to be considered a slow build up then what is?