Hulk Hogan VS Ric Flair - match that never happen in Wrestlemania? But this promo?
- Thread starter mizowns
- Start date
I remember they were supposed to have one at Wrestlemania 8 I think it was? The year Savage beat Flair for the title, but Hogan was put in with Sid Justice instead.
That being said, who cares really? Hogan would have won. Did Flair or Savage ever beat Hogan? Fairly? Those feuds were one sided for sure.
That being said, who cares really? Hogan would have won. Did Flair or Savage ever beat Hogan? Fairly? Those feuds were one sided for sure.
Jack-Hammer
YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!!!!
Nope, they never had a match until Hogan went to WCW. I'm not sure why the match didn't happen at WrestleMania VIII but, for whatever reason, they never wrestled each other in the WWF.
I agree with the poster above in that it doesn't really matter because Hogan would've won regardless of where the match happened. Flair was the far superior overall wrestler, in my opinion, but Hogan was the bigger star and the much bigger draw. Hell, Hogan beat Flair in his very first match in WCW at the Bash at the Beach ppv on July 17, 1994 and held the strap for the next 469 days.
I agree with the poster above in that it doesn't really matter because Hogan would've won regardless of where the match happened. Flair was the far superior overall wrestler, in my opinion, but Hogan was the bigger star and the much bigger draw. Hell, Hogan beat Flair in his very first match in WCW at the Bash at the Beach ppv on July 17, 1994 and held the strap for the next 469 days.
I think they were amid the steroid scandal at the time and that could have kept Hogan out of the title scene. I don't think the WWF wanted Hogan to win the belt and amid all that controversy.
I think the Flair vs. Hogan match at WM would have easily been one of the biggest matches of all time. If Flair had continued bringing the NWA and the WWF title to the ring it would have been that much more marketable while calling himself the "Undisputed Real World's Champion" or something to that effect.
It was definitely a missed opportunity for the WWF. Flair and Savage had great heat going into that match and that one will always go down as one of the best matches IMO. However, they completely botched the Hogan match. Sid Vicious won't ever be a big draw, and then botching the end by having Papa Shango come attack Hogan??? At least we got to see a pose down at the end with the two biggest gear users in the industries: Hogan, and Warrior.
I think the Flair vs. Hogan match at WM would have easily been one of the biggest matches of all time. If Flair had continued bringing the NWA and the WWF title to the ring it would have been that much more marketable while calling himself the "Undisputed Real World's Champion" or something to that effect.
It was definitely a missed opportunity for the WWF. Flair and Savage had great heat going into that match and that one will always go down as one of the best matches IMO. However, they completely botched the Hogan match. Sid Vicious won't ever be a big draw, and then botching the end by having Papa Shango come attack Hogan??? At least we got to see a pose down at the end with the two biggest gear users in the industries: Hogan, and Warrior.
Wrestlingaholic
Championship Contender
They actually had a very short house show run around Christmas time 1991 (whilst the WWE title was vacant); apparently it didn't perform as well as expected at the box office so they nixed the idea of having them main event Wrestlemania VIII, putting Flair with Savage and Hogan with Sid instead.
They were meant to face off, on Superstars even there was a segment where Jack Tunney announced that the WWF Board of Directors had chosen Hulk Hogan over Sid and Macho Man to be the number one contender to Ric Flair. Why it never happened is anyone's guess. I've heard that Vince got cold feet after Hogan v Flair didn't do as good as expected business at house shows, I've also heard there was a creative conflict with Hogan and that Flair was slated to beat Hogan (due to Hogan taking time off after Mania).
Honestly I think Vince decided that a better sell was to have a double main event and to do that Hogan would have to not be in the title match. Keep in mind Wrestlemania 7 was something of a flop financially and so Vince really wanted to rebound at Wrestlemania 8.
Honestly I think Vince decided that a better sell was to have a double main event and to do that Hogan would have to not be in the title match. Keep in mind Wrestlemania 7 was something of a flop financially and so Vince really wanted to rebound at Wrestlemania 8.
HORRORHOLIC
Pre-Show Stalwart
Not on PPV, but they wrestled on a bunch of house shows including this one at MSG https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7DHzNpJ3UI
I think it's crazy Vince had them wrestle at house shows instead of Wrestlemania after all the years of fans talking about Flair vs Hogan!!
salopstick
Pre-Show Stalwart
Flair says in his book that randy moaned and whined about not having the title so add that to the underwhelming house shows between hogan and flair made it an easy decision to make.
MrMojoRisin
Championship Contender
Not true.
They didn't have a PPV match, or one that aired on TV, but from the point Flair got to the WWF and Hogan left after WM8, they worked together pretty much exclusively.
They had 37 singles matches between October 1991 and January 1992. Once Flair won the title at the Rumble, they had one more singles match in Montreal the next night and after that worked against each other in tags up until Wrestlemania. Hogan usually teaming with Piper, and Flair with either the Undertaker or Justice.
As the story goes, McMahon wasn't happy with how Hogan and Flair drew in their house show run, and that's why he went with Flair/Savage instead. That could be true, but I also think the fact that Hogan was leaving after Wrestlemania posed a bigger problem. How do you put Hogan over Flair when Hogan's gone the next day and you have plans for Flair? Especially if you still had put the belt on Flair like they did? How do you have Hogan lose at Wrestlemania? You can put Hogan over Justice fine because Sid's finishing up soon too, but not Flair... and you can't put the title back on Hogan either.
To me, that's more the real reason it never happened. It's too bad though. That was the match that fans had wanted to see for a decade. It would have been an epic event.
Could hear it on the video back in the day.THTRobtaylor
Once & Future Wrestlezone Columnist
They did it on the house show circuit and the reactions were not what they expected if you believe the story.
It comes down to this, Hogan NEVER accepted losing to small guys in his WWE tenure. Barely a year earlier he had cost them Rick Rude by refusing to EVEN WRESTLE him and win the title from him at Mania 7, demanding Slaughter instead. Flair was not any different in his eyes and that was a big part about why WM8 was suddenly "his last match".
Hogan made a decision not to allow it... he still had Vince enough on the hook for him to "come back" that he got away with the change... Flair can have the belt but he can't win it from ME... oh and at Mania, Randy goes over...
Flair is not blameless, he reacted badly, deciding on the shockingly bad blade job during the match at Mania and losing Vince as an ally in the process.
But anyone who believes Flair v Hogan didn't happen for any other reason than Hogan's ego is sorely mistaken. Flair was so accomodating with the WCW side of things cos he missed out on that money in the WWF and genuinely believed the roles were reversed there... how little he knew.
They wrestled on house shows as many have stated here. But they also actually had a televised tag team match at Saturday Night's Main Event in February 1992. It was Hogan and Sid Justice against Flair and the Undertaker. Hogan and Sid had been having tension since the Royal Rumble but had "made amends" and were teaming up.
In the match Sid turned on Hogan, when a beaten up Hogan crawled over to him to make the tag and Sid pulled his hand away.
In the match Sid turned on Hogan, when a beaten up Hogan crawled over to him to make the tag and Sid pulled his hand away.
Wrestlingaholic
Championship Contender
@THTRobTaylor: you have made mention to Hogan's refusal to work with Rick Rude several times before. I'm curious, where did you hear about this?
Sorry to go off topic
Sorry to go off topic
There is so much wrong with what you just said. It sounds like you flat out just don't like Hogan. The FACT is HOGAN wanted to face Flair. Hogan did NOT change the match.
Part of the equation was the house show numbers, another part was the STEROID TRIAL, and still a 3rd part of the equation is this: Who was Macho Man going to wrestle at WM 8? The original plans had Sid vs Undertaker, Jake vs Savage, but the family of Elizabeth had issues with the angle with Roberts after Jake slapped Liz and Randy had the angle cut short so he could get his revenge on TV and "act like a man" for Liz's family. The rumor is Liz'z family locked Randy on the porch when they were over for the holidays.
dd23beatlesfan1
Getting Noticed By Management
The thing that has always gotten me about this issue is that the whole "house show matches drawing poorly" theory has never made sense to me.
As has been pointed out by several posters, the majority of Hogan and Flair's run together in singles matches on the house show circuit was from October 91 to January 92, shortly before the Royal Rumble. Obviously everyone knows Hogan/Flair was the plan when Flair arrived in September of 91. But the thing is, after the Rumble, it was announced on WWE television that Hogan was the No. 1 contender, and we were gonna get Hogan/Flair as the main event of Wrestlemania.
If the house shows drew so poorly, like many people blame this on, then why did they announce on TV and start to go with Hogan/Flair as the main event? It doesn't make any sense. If the house show matches drew so poorly to turn Vince against the idea of the Hogan/Flair match, then they would've just had Flair win the Rumble and immediately begin the feud with Savage afterwards. That's not what happened though as we all know. Something else had to have caused plans to change.
Honestly, I think it just came down to unforeseen circumstances. I don't think Vince, in September 91 was planning on the Steroid Scandal to get bigger, or for Hogan to want to leave after WM 8. But that's what happened in early 92. Hogan, all of a sudden was becoming a burden to the company's image, so they couldn't have him win the title again without a ton of scrutiny, and I'm sure Vince and Hogan both agreed that it was best for Hogan to take a sabbatical for awhile. Hogan could pursue other interests, and Vince could re-brand the company and allow the scandal to ride itself out.
But at the same time, Hogan leaving really throws a wrench at the booking plans for the main event. Let's be clear here. Vince McMahon was never going to let a heel beat Hulk Hogan in a title match at WM. And especially when that heel happened to be the biggest star of his rival promotion for a decade prior. Hogan was always gonna win. The problem with that though is that with Hogan leaving, he can't win the title and then just leave. Even though that's what he did at WM 9 the next year, lol, but yeah. Vince couldn't afford to not have his champion around at that point as WWE was going downhill in the ratings and overall popularity big time. He needed his champion there.
So at this point, booking wise, Vince and company probably felt they had no real booking choices for this match, so it needed to be changed. I honestly feel like they could've just used the same ending from the Hogan/Sid match for the Hogan/Flair match. Have Ric cheat and get DQed (typical Flair anyway lol), then have him, Perfect, and another heel (heck use Papa Shango in this case as well) all gang up on Hogan after the match. Warrior comes down to make the save, and we end WM with Hogan winning, but not getting the belt, but still have the return of Warrior and have him pose with Hogan for the happy ending. But I'm sure Vince and company would've wanted to give the fans a clear cut winner, which they couldn't really provide.
Hogan's leaving so he can fight another monster heel on his way out in Sid, who they had big plans for anyway. Flair and Savage was about the next biggest dream match, so fans still got to a see a dream match anyway, plus as the poster above me alluded to, Jake Roberts has stated that Elizabeth's family was legit pissed about the Randy/Jake feud and that it had to be cut short. And we also have to remember that Taker was getting more and more over, so it was about time to turn him babyface by this point.
So with all of these circumstances going on, WWE really needed to switch the matches around like they did. Really it turned out for the best. We still got a top 3 WM out of the first 10, I would say. A classic event of the early years of Wrestlemania.
But yeah, I think it was just circumstances taking place that cause the match to basically not be a doable match. Not the house show gates, IMO.
As has been pointed out by several posters, the majority of Hogan and Flair's run together in singles matches on the house show circuit was from October 91 to January 92, shortly before the Royal Rumble. Obviously everyone knows Hogan/Flair was the plan when Flair arrived in September of 91. But the thing is, after the Rumble, it was announced on WWE television that Hogan was the No. 1 contender, and we were gonna get Hogan/Flair as the main event of Wrestlemania.
If the house shows drew so poorly, like many people blame this on, then why did they announce on TV and start to go with Hogan/Flair as the main event? It doesn't make any sense. If the house show matches drew so poorly to turn Vince against the idea of the Hogan/Flair match, then they would've just had Flair win the Rumble and immediately begin the feud with Savage afterwards. That's not what happened though as we all know. Something else had to have caused plans to change.
Honestly, I think it just came down to unforeseen circumstances. I don't think Vince, in September 91 was planning on the Steroid Scandal to get bigger, or for Hogan to want to leave after WM 8. But that's what happened in early 92. Hogan, all of a sudden was becoming a burden to the company's image, so they couldn't have him win the title again without a ton of scrutiny, and I'm sure Vince and Hogan both agreed that it was best for Hogan to take a sabbatical for awhile. Hogan could pursue other interests, and Vince could re-brand the company and allow the scandal to ride itself out.
But at the same time, Hogan leaving really throws a wrench at the booking plans for the main event. Let's be clear here. Vince McMahon was never going to let a heel beat Hulk Hogan in a title match at WM. And especially when that heel happened to be the biggest star of his rival promotion for a decade prior. Hogan was always gonna win. The problem with that though is that with Hogan leaving, he can't win the title and then just leave. Even though that's what he did at WM 9 the next year, lol, but yeah. Vince couldn't afford to not have his champion around at that point as WWE was going downhill in the ratings and overall popularity big time. He needed his champion there.
So at this point, booking wise, Vince and company probably felt they had no real booking choices for this match, so it needed to be changed. I honestly feel like they could've just used the same ending from the Hogan/Sid match for the Hogan/Flair match. Have Ric cheat and get DQed (typical Flair anyway lol), then have him, Perfect, and another heel (heck use Papa Shango in this case as well) all gang up on Hogan after the match. Warrior comes down to make the save, and we end WM with Hogan winning, but not getting the belt, but still have the return of Warrior and have him pose with Hogan for the happy ending. But I'm sure Vince and company would've wanted to give the fans a clear cut winner, which they couldn't really provide.
Hogan's leaving so he can fight another monster heel on his way out in Sid, who they had big plans for anyway. Flair and Savage was about the next biggest dream match, so fans still got to a see a dream match anyway, plus as the poster above me alluded to, Jake Roberts has stated that Elizabeth's family was legit pissed about the Randy/Jake feud and that it had to be cut short. And we also have to remember that Taker was getting more and more over, so it was about time to turn him babyface by this point.
So with all of these circumstances going on, WWE really needed to switch the matches around like they did. Really it turned out for the best. We still got a top 3 WM out of the first 10, I would say. A classic event of the early years of Wrestlemania.
But yeah, I think it was just circumstances taking place that cause the match to basically not be a doable match. Not the house show gates, IMO.
He made it up or heard it from someone who made it up. Hogan worked with Rude before 1990, and worked with Flair numerous times over the years. Rude left the WWF shortly before Survivor Series 1990 (he was in a feud with the Bossman) because of the payoff he received from the Summerslam 1990 match with Warrior. Rude felt he carried the match and deserved more money. It had nothing to do with Hogan.
CrucifiedRaven
The Evenflow Effect
Yea, the house show matches drawing poorly theory hasn't always made sense to me either. It is the commonly accepted reason, but there's also been many reports which run counter to this as well. Many have gone on record in saying that these houses actually did great business. I can try and dig up some articles or sources for proof, but I've read that any time Hogan/Flair main evented the houses did substantially better than whatever else they were running at the time. And it's not like Savage/Flair was any bigger of a draw anyways. Perhaps Flair wasn't seen as being a credible enough heel to defeat Hogan because he wasn't a monster like so many of Hogan's previous opponents. But I've read the houses at the time actually did better business, not worse.
I've always said this as well. They could have done the exact same ending with Flair as they did with Sid. Flair keeps the belt, Hogan gets a DQ win, Warrior returns, crowd goes home happy. Sure maybe they would have wanted a clear cut winner, but they didn't get one anyways with the actual finish they booked. WrestleMania ending on a DQ seems like a bad idea, but at the time it would have worked. And that's exactly what they did anyways.
The entire thing doesn't really make sense. Especially, as you mentioned they had pretty much already booked the match after the Rumble. It's all speculation, but I think there is much more at play than just the house numbers. Perhaps Savage was whining about not being the champion. Perhaps Hogan didn't want to work with a smaller heel. Perhaps Vince didn't want Flair OR Hogan walking out of 'Mania with the title due to the steroid scandal and Flair's NWA history. He did always prefer to run a babyface champion for the majority of the year, so it's possible he didn't want any heel champion. A combination of all of this backstage drama is probably more likely.
IF the whole House show theory is true, then it could have very well been Vince's fault that they weren't successful. I doubt The Rock and Cena ever went on a House Show circuit, and I think the same can be said for mega matches. It's really the WWE's job to put these kind of matches in perspective, especially to the average fan.
Flair and Hogan had their match in WCW, and I still contend that WWF dropped the ball on it the first time. While it wasn't the draw WCW it expected, it was still successful and put WCW in the light as legitimate competition to the WWF.
I think the steroid ordeal was the biggest contributor to Vince not wanting Hogan to go over Flair for the belt. The scandal looks even worse when Hogan's the champion, especially at a time when many still thought wrestling was real.
Flair and Hogan had their match in WCW, and I still contend that WWF dropped the ball on it the first time. While it wasn't the draw WCW it expected, it was still successful and put WCW in the light as legitimate competition to the WWF.
I think the steroid ordeal was the biggest contributor to Vince not wanting Hogan to go over Flair for the belt. The scandal looks even worse when Hogan's the champion, especially at a time when many still thought wrestling was real.
Wrestlingaholic
Championship Contender
With regards to WWE going as far as announcing Hogan v Flair for Wrestlemania on tv, I wonder at what point the decision was made? Certainly, despite the announcement, the groundwork had been laid for Hogan v Sid - Sid eliminating Hogan from the Royal Rumble; Sid (as Rumble runner up) standing at the WM press conference, believing he was about to be announced as #1 contender to Flair's title for the big Hoosier Dome show.
Was the original plan for Hogan to go over Flair in Indianapolis, then defend the title v Sid at Summerslam? Or had the plan been to go with Hogan v Sid since BEFORE the Royal Rumble, and the press conference was a way to further the feud and facilitate Sid's heel turn?
Was the original plan for Hogan to go over Flair in Indianapolis, then defend the title v Sid at Summerslam? Or had the plan been to go with Hogan v Sid since BEFORE the Royal Rumble, and the press conference was a way to further the feud and facilitate Sid's heel turn?
FlairFan2003
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Not true. Flair vs Hogan headlined several times in WWE, I watched them main event at the Pittsburgh Civic Arena in Oct 1991. In fact, on the SuperStars of the 90s DVD set there is a Hogan-Flair WWE Match from Dec 91 at Madison Square Garden. When Flair arrived in WWE he immediately went after Hogan storyline wise, but since Hogan worked a Brock Lesnar like schedule, only a few shows per month, he headlined "Non Hogan" shows vs Roddy Piper who came out of retirement basically just to wrestle Flair.
There are several stories about Hogan-Flair at WM VIII - The story about house show gates is hard to believe, they were the best draw WWE had at the time. I know in a one year stretch I saw four WWE shows in Pittsburgh, the two shows headlined by Flair-Hogan topped 10,000 & 13,500 respectively while shows headlined by Randy Savage-Jack Roberts and by Brett Hart and HBK (separate matches, not against each other) each failed to top 7,000.
WWE actually ran promos after the Royal Rumble proclaiming a Flair-Hogan WWE Title Match for the WM PPV. There was a supposed "poll" between the top four contenders (Sid, Savage, Piper, & Hogan) which Hogan won. It was a few weeks after announcing the match on TV and promoting it that WWE switched.
The Federal Steroid Investigation was in full swing and both Piper & Hogan were heavily involved and both would be leaving WWE as soon as WM was over despite playing major roles in the programming for several months leading up to the show. Other wrestlers soon found themselves out of work too around this time who had drug issues, such as Kerry Von Erich.
The most commonly held theory was that WWE decided with the Feds on their case they wanted Hogan gone, at least for awhile, which made it seem senseless to have him win the WWF Title if he was leaving. Hogan certainly wasn't jobbbing at Mania to the his greatest rival nationally, not too mention that while Vince has always had somewhat of a love affair with Flair he isn't per se a WWE Creation. Storyline wise it never made any sense why Hogan would voluntarily give up a title match against Flair, who had tormented him for months, involving himself in the Undertaker feud and basically costing Hogan the belt (which he went on to win himself) just so he could settle a relatively new grudge vs Sid (and suddenly right before Mania announce it would be his retirement bout). With all that info I think it's more likely WWE switched gears because Hogan was leaving and they didn't want him winning the title and quitting right after, drawing more attention to himself in the process with Fed investigation kicking in.
But to answer the simple question, did Hogan vs Flair ever happen in WWE (before their 2002 RAW Match) and yes, it did several times, including a match in Madison Square Garden that is on DVD.
FlairFan2003
Mid-Card Championship Winner
According to Flair he was booked originally to beat Savage at Mania and retain but Randy was the one who was unhappy (understandable since he had been asked to put over both Hogan & Warrior while losing the Word Title in one match and his career in another), although Flair said he was amenable to the change.
He also said despite Savage's alleged overtly jealous and possessive nature regarding Liz he never got mad for Flair for ad libbing the kiss and face slap segment between him & Liz following the title loss.
With Hogan facing exile post Mania with the Steroid Investigation heating up it made sense not to have him win the title. And though Im no Hogan apologist by any means I wouldn't have booked Hogan to lose to Flair at Mania if he was leaving with no idea when (or if) there would be a re match. Hogan did too much for the company to do that to him.
He could have dropped the belt one on one vs Flair at R-Rumble though, especially if a Mania win was in the cards - I always suspected Flair's Iron Man Performance that night, about the most impressive title win you could get in 1992 WWE without directly pinning Hogan, was WWE's way to give Flair the biggest win possible before asking him to put over Hogan but the Steroid Trial more than anything ruined that.
Hogan was very protective of his character though....he never gave a televised win, even by DQ or Count-Out to Savage despite a feud that stretched 14 years and two federations, which boggles my mind - In comparison giving Flair two televised pinfall wins plus a count out win and a win by DQ (when it appeared Hogan was submitting to The Figure Four) was a show of massive generosity on Hogan's part.
FlairFan2003
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Just to answer the last question....Savage won several non televised house show matches on tour vs Hogan via count out in 1989 after losing the WWE Title at Mania. That was the only time I know off Savage ever was granted a win over Hogan, although they were never televised.
Flair pinned Hogan (after hitting him with a foreign object) in Jan 96 on Nitro, Hogan's first pinfall loss in WCW back when Nitro was really pushing the "Anything Can Happen" aspect of their live broadcasts. Flair also pinned Hogan in an unusual Cage Match that had No DQ stipulations and was originally billed as a 1st Blood Match (but was later amended right before the start to only stop the bout in the case of "excessive" bleeding, allowing both men to bleed profusely but the match continued), Flair used a tire iron in this one but with no DQ in effect that technically wasn't illegal.
Flair got a televised win via count out vs Hogan at the 1994 Clash of Champions (personally my fav match between them), although Hogan was selling an injury angle at the time (so the win wasn't clean). Hollywood Hogan appeared to tap out to Flair's Figure Four at the 1996 Clash Of Champions but an NWO run in lead to a DQ win for Flair, the only "clean" win he gained in the feud but not via pinfall.
Personally I can see Hogan dominating the feuds because he was such a big star but he could have given more, especially to Savage considering how many times they crossed paths. Flair gave plenty to Dusty Rhodes during a feud that dominated a decade in the 1980s and traded wins vs Sting through out the 90s. John Cena has given several wins to CM Punk and Edge, his two greatest rivals. HHH has put over almost every major opponent he has faced in a long term feud including Randy Orton, Cena, HBK, Taker, Rock, even an ageing near the end of his career Flair. Savage traded wins in his other significant long term program vs Flair, both on the house show circuit and in televised bouts. Hogan should have given a little more to both of them while still maintaining his dominance, but its all relative now.
Nate DaMac
Fuck erbody but me
Hey Jack, I'm not sure if you've heard yet but Hogan and Flair actually did wrestle in the WWE at a string of house shows in 1991. I know! Fucking crazy, right? Man...
I don't buy a lot of this nonsense. They were worried it wouldn't draw? There's no way Flair/Hogan wouldn't have done at least the same numbers that Hogan/Sid and Savage/Flair did. I'd be willing to be it'd do more.
They didn't like the matches? Please. There's no way they weren't at least up to the Hogan standard.
I'd buy the Steroid Scandal and Hogan's subsequent leaving story above any of these others.
Oh and by they way,
I don't know if you remember from the other 300 people who have told you or from me telling earlier in this very post, but Hogan and Flair actually did have a string of house show matches in 1991. I KNOW, RIGHT!?!?!?!
Jesus.
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