Hulk Hogan/FOTH gets his ass handed to him over and over again

[Moon Knight]

But, by giving their money to Vince McMahon to watch Hulk Hogan perform, MORE people are saying that they are entertained by Hulk Hogan than anyone else. Thus, even by your own definition, Hogan is the better wrestler because people personally prefer him more than anyone else.

As far as Hogan's value to people today, I would say that his multiple television shows would show his value.

You have to pay attention to the difference between the NWA and WWF at the time. Global vs Regional.

 

[Moon Knight]

Precisely my point. Well, not precisely.

Close enough.

 

[Shocky]

Well, this is about in ring ability not drawing power. Money doesn't matter.

Ring ability is again, a biased way to determine things. I find Shawn Michaels to be a bore because of his constant over selling, yet people seem to throw heeps upon heeps of endless mindless praise his way. Ask a guy in Philadelphia about Ric Flair, and chances are, something along the lines of Dick Flair and Shane Douglas. You go to different territories, different people have a different opinion on what makes good in ring ability.

 

[Uncle Sam]

The best actors are the ones who are able to make people care about them to the greatest degree. Which is also the purpose of professional wrestlers.

I thought it was to make money? Or is money suddenly just a by-product?

But, by giving their money to Vince McMahon to watch Hulk Hogan perform, MORE people are saying that they are entertained by Hulk Hogan than anyone else. Thus, even by your own definition, Hogan is the better wrestler because people personally prefer him more than anyone else.

Eh, questionable. Particularly when you say something was good in the past. That method holds little value, as there are different areas where events can be held... and, well, massive amounts of other variables to be taken into account, meaning that the way you're measuring entertainment value, etc. is, you guessed it, inaccurate.

As far as Hogan's value to people today, I would say that his multiple television shows would show his value.

Hogan's value, or any wrestler come to think of it, is pathetic when you compare it to major TV stars or moving stars. Just a side note. And again, ratings, which obviously TV operates on, are subject to many, many variables, particularly in this day and age.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

All this coming from a person that does his best to defend anyone in the Kliq at all times, yup, not buying it.

So when Triple H. and Shawn Michaels do something that sees them as trying to remain at the top and never give the spotlight to anyone else.. its bad. Yet when Hogan does it, its good?

Better yet.. lets relook at this situation..

Hulk Hogan refused to lay down and put Shawn Michaels over at Summerslam a few years back. Why? According to so many, including Sly, Hogan's career is the very best of any Professional Wrestler.. so what did Hogan have to prove by defeating Shawn Michaels?

From the way I see it, since Hogan didn't wanna give Michaels the credit of defeating him, and Hogan instead wanted the credit of defeating H.B.K.. that makes me think Hogan felt threatened by Shawn Michaels career and accomplishments and had to once again "prove" that he was better, dispite being old.

Need more proof? Randy Orton, also at Summerslam. Hogan could barely get off the ground to deliver the world's worst leg drop due to his hips. Yet he once again found the spotlight and the victory in defeating a guy that by all rights would've had more of a legacy built around him by defeating Hogan, than Hogan would've had defeating Orton.

So what was the point? If Hogan wasn't all about himself, then why didn't he do what you want Triple H. and Shawn Michaels to do, and put over the talent? Afterall.. when Hogan defeated H.B.K. and Orton.. he was a one time deal, whereas they were contracted weekly wrestling Superstars.

I get your complaints on H.H.H. & H.B.K., some of which I agree with.. but don't try playing off this Hogan is in the right for doing the same shit crap with me.

You mean from unprovoked and unfounded insults, based simply because the man was great?

Yeah, sure, sign me up for that.

Hulk Hogan being "great" is an opinion based assumption. Hes no more great than Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, Randy Savage, Ric Flair, or any other number of Superstars.

The mere instant someone says anyone is great.. it makes it an opinion, not a fact. Hogan being great is an opinion you have. If I were to say Doink the Clown was great, he'd just of been catagorized with Hogan. Why? Because saying someone is great is an opinion, not a fact.

So, tell me Will, are you a pedophile? After all, I'm assuming you once changed your baby's diapers? Does that make you a pedophile? Of course not.

Simple fact is this. Hulk Hogan feels for his daughter the same way 95% of America feels about their children. It was just him rubbing suntan lotion on the daughter he raised for 20 years, and whom he's seen naked a million times. No big deal.

The only reason people want to read more into it than there is is because of their own perverted minds.

Seriously?! This shocks the hell out of me from you. Honestly, the man (who as you later say just qualified for Social Security) was rubbing lotion on his 20 yr. old Daughter's private areas.

I assure you there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between changing a 2 yr old's dirty diaper filled butt.. and rubbing a 20 yr old's ass & crotch with lotion. If you call that what 95% of American Father's would do, then I guess I fall into the 5% who DON'T sexually molest their children.

Whats gonna happen when the story finally breaks that Hogan is actually having sex with her? I'm sure its on its way, as pathetic and sad as it is. Seriously Sly.. you defending this honestly disgusts me because its sick. You just tried comparing rubbing lotion on a 20 year old's ass, to changing a baby's diaper.

Umm, no that wound up being either Brooke or Linda.

Reports had Hogan in the car with Brooke. And I already said it wasn't his fault, but he was still apart of it. (for what it matters, which at this point compared to everything else.. it doesn't)

Hogan was doing what EVERY other parent tries to do, and that is make life the best he can for his son. With Nick's name being a Hogan, are you telling me that he's not going to be the special target of plenty of people in jail, looking to make their name by picking on a Hogan? Of course. Due to Nick's last name, he was a bigger target that 90% of prisoners ever will be. I say that's more than enough cause for concern for his child's health.

Who's fault is that? If anything, celebs are suppose to be role models for everyone who watch them. Special treatment shouldn't be handed out just because they broke the law and suffered the same effects as a normal person.

I don't give a shit if hes "famous" by relation. Its not my fault he was a moron, so it shouldn't be anyone else's fault for wanting to make a name off of a moron.

Hogan was merely trying to get his child out of having to serve time like normal people, because he thought he was "above" the system. Which also explains why the moron (Hulk) went into the courtroom with his bandana on.

The show wasn't about his money, it was about launching Brooke's career. That was ALWAYS the goal of the show.

Then he failed, miserably.

Actually, it was the getting laid that did it.

Yeah, just like my not replying sooner to you was a result of what gets produced from sex.

Then I'm greedy to. See, while I love teaching and coaching, I have to admit, I would not do it without the monetary return for my job. I wouldn't. I wouldn't work for free, and I certainly wouldn't provide benefits to others for free. Just not my style.

But, truly, I admire you Will, for volunteering your services at every job you work at. Tell me, who are the charities that benefit from your infinite generosity?

I'm not saying I disrespect the guy for selling himself. Hell, in another thread I willingly said I'd put my own Family on television to gain money out of it. But thats because just like Hogan, I would very much want the money and the spotlight.

See, when a new television shows offers you big bucks to do a cushy job on a show you like, most people usually turn them down because they are afraid that someone is going to assume that they are only hosting that show because they want more spotlight. I'm sure it has nothing to do with his interests, hobbies, killing time, making money....no, it was simply for his own personal glory. And, I'm sure he had to literally hold the producers of the show at knifepoint to get that gig.

Damn that Hogan for FORCING a show to use him as a host.

If Hogan's hobby is American Gladiators, then he should've signed up to be an entry to compete on the show. Not try and overshadow the entire thing, by plastering his face all over it.

You say professional wrestling, and Hogan still is one of the first three names you'll hear, if not the first name.

Thats because Hulk Hogan was a big part of creating Professional Wrestling. I never discounted that.. but it was also in the 80's.. this is going on 30 years later.. his time has come and way past gone. Legends are what they are, for being what they were.. not continuing to attempt being the main source of everything.

No one wants what Hogan's selling, except all of the viewers who tune in to watch him, which thus gives the ratings. Hogan Knows Best was a big ratings getter for VH1, and American Gladiators did exceptionally well in ratings on a network for their season 1.

But, clearly, no one cares. I guess Nielsen Media just makes up those ratings.

Once again with the ratings.

You see, this is what I love about your views. One guy either makes or breaks a show. Yet earlier you said the show wasn't about him, it was about his Family.. so with that, wouldn't it of been his Family that gave the show those "high ratings?" Wouldn't it of been those "staged acts" that made viewers buy into the crap they were putting on?

Afterall, thats all Hulk Hogan's ever been.. one big joke.

Yes, thank god the million of people who coattailed Hogan for all those decades were there. Because, I'm sure that, without them, there would not have just been others.

What exactly is Hulk Hogan remembered for? Slamming Andre? Selling out arenas? Being the Main guy at the top of the business? Being a World Champion?

So you're telling me he would've done all that, without Randy Savage, Ric Flair, Andre, Ted Dibiase, the Ultimate Warrior, and all the others? I don't think so. Hulk Hogan made it big because of how he ran with his character.. but it was the supporting cast that helped MAKE the character.

Warrior at Mania VI.. Andre at Mania III.. Savage and Hogan through out. Flair and Hogan throughout.. without them, Hogan would just be some big built guy, in red and yellow colors, waving a flag.

The man's not even 60 yet. He just now qualified for Social Security.

Which if anything is a clear cut indication that the guy needs to get out of the spotlight.

 

[Moon Knight]

Ring ability is again, a biased way to determine things. I find Shawn Michaels to be a bore because of his constant over selling, yet people seem to throw heeps upon heeps of endless mindless praise his way. Ask a guy in Philadelphia about Ric Flair, and chances are, something along the lines of Dick Flair and Shane Douglas. You go to different territories, different people have a different opinion on what makes good in ring ability.

Are you sure that dick comment isn't an attack on his less than steller character outside the ring rather than his in ring work? Even Flair admitted he was an ass back then.

Of course that was back in the territory days, what were the odds me in socal would see what Flair did in Florida?

 

[Moon Knight]

What exactly is Hulk Hogan remembered for? Slamming Andre? Selling out arenas? Being the Main guy at the top of the business? Being a World Champion?

So you're telling me he would've done all that, without Randy Savage, Ric Flair, Andre, Ted Dibiase, the Ultimate Warrior, and all the others? I don't think so. Hulk Hogan made it big because of how he ran with his character.. but it was the supporting cast that helped MAKE the character.

Warrior at Mania VI.. Andre at Mania III.. Savage and Hogan through out. Flair and Hogan throughout.. without them, Hogan would just be some big built guy, in red and yellow colors, waving a flag.

Same with everybody, where would Austin be without McMahon, Foley and The Rock?

 

[Uncle Sam]

This is getting heavy for a bar room thread. It's just gone midnight here. I'm going to bed. Sly feel free to reply (if you haven't by the time I've finished this), but I won't reply back. You needn't worry, I'm sure we'll find another oppurtunity to bring this subject up soon enough. So if you're as right as you think, you'll prove it before long.

 

[Slyfox696]

Does it matter if those objective methods are inaccurate?

How is Hogan's drawing prowess inaccurate?

It's a valid point, just because something made more money doesn't make it better.

It's not a valid point, because the reason for the creation isn't the same.

I can't speak on why Britney Spears or Ozzy Osborne create music. However, in professional wrestling, I KNOW why professional wrestlers are hired...to make money.

However, if Ozzy and Britney's sole purpose in making music is simply to make the most money, then obviously, Britney is better than Ozzy. However, I dare say that Pyotr Tchaikovsky's cause for creation of music is vastly different than Nickelback's.

Which is why it is not a valid point.

No. I have seen many Flair matches, he was able to mix up his moves and style to best match who he was wrestling, he sold their moves better than anybody. The fact is he changed his style, this is so a match against Steamboat didn't look like the match against Sting.

This is a joke, right? Are you telling me that you don't see Flair fall on his face every match? Get thrown off the turnbuckle? Get on his knees begging from getting beat? Throwing a million chops and screaming woo? That there was little damage on a knee before working in a Figure Four, but then the knee would become a target after?

Please. Go watch any Flair matches, and you'll see all of those elements in the match. You'll probably even see him duck out of the ring and head off into the fans outside the guard rail.

Hogan on the other hand did the same thing every night. Can you sit there and tell me that Hogans match at WM 2 wasn't the same as the one at WM 5?

Better. I can tell you that the match at Wrestlemania 6 wasn't at all like his match from Wrestlemania 7. I can tell you that his work in Japan was vastly different from his work in America. I can tell you his work in the AWA was different than his work in WCW.

Hogans matches didn't age well, in fact all of Hogans match of the year awards were based on hype and atmosphere while Flairs were based on wrestling.

By whose account? Yours? On the contrary, I'd still rather watch a Hogan match than anything Flair has done, outside of his match with Ricky Steamboat from the Clash.

If you have seen one Hogan match you have seen them all, because they were all the same. Flair on the other knew how to mix up his stuff, Hogan didn't.

This is incredible. Flair works the same match for 25 years, and you ignore that, and when Hogan works a variety of styles over the course of his career, you just lump them all together.

Do yourself a favor. Actually watch four matches. Watch his match from Wrestlemania 6, his match from Wrestlemania 7, his match from Starrcade '97, and any match you want from Japan. Then tell me he worked the same match.

You have to pay attention to the difference between the NWA and WWF at the time. Global vs Regional.

Yeah, the difference being Hulk Hogan vs. Ric Flair.

When Hogan got the belt in '83, the NWA was the more popular company. Hogan and Flair went head to head for years, and the WWF buried the NWA.


You pretty much proved my point.

I thought it was to make money? Or is money suddenly just a by-product?

In order to make the most money possible, you have to play a character that people can attach to. Thus, playing a character people connect to is the means to the end goal, which is to make money.

Eh, questionable. Particularly when you say something was good in the past. That method holds little value, as there are different areas where events can be held... and, well, massive amounts of other variables to be taken into account, meaning that the way you're measuring entertainment value, etc. is, you guessed it, inaccurate.

It's only questionable to you, because it proves your wrong.

Even by your own statement, Hulk Hogan was better because more people preferred to watch him. Are you actually trying to insinuate that Hogan's drawing and moneymaking for over 2 decades is merely coincidental?

And again, ratings, which obviously TV operates on, are subject to many, many variables, particularly in this day and age.

Umm..not really. Ratings are the percentage of households who have the opportunity to watch a show that does watch a show. When Hogan's shows rate highly for their time slot in comparison to other shows, it is a good example of his popularity.



Now on to Will...

 

[TheOneBigWill]

We're not talking about music, we're talking about wrestling.

Its the same concept though. You claim Hulk Hogan was the best because of the amount of money he made for the industry. So by that same structure and opinion.. Britney Spears is better than Ozzy.

And Millie Cyrus is the Hulk Hogan of the music industry.

And, I have seen a Ric Flair match. And since I've seen one Ric Flair match, I've pretty much seen all of them.

You can't be serious. This coming from a Hogan mark. Watch Mania 1-9.. tell me Hogan didn't do the exact.. same.. shit.

No, scrap that.. you're a Hogan fan.. watch ALL his matches, you tell me one thing he did differently? Slightly sell his opponents finish only to Hulk up & no sell, Big Boot, Leg Drop, 20 minute pose down, night ends.

I've seen plenty of Flair matches, but are you really going to sit there and tell me that he did not work the same match? Watch his first DVD. Every match follows the same basic structure, no matter the situation, nor his face/heel disposition.

You ARE talking about Hulk Hogan, aren't you?

 

[Shocky]

So when Triple H. and Shawn Michaels do something that sees them as trying to remain at the top and never give the spotlight to anyone else.. its bad. Yet when Hogan does it, its good?

Better yet.. lets relook at this situation..

Hulk Hogan refused to lay down and put Shawn Michaels over at Summerslam a few years back. Why? According to so many, including Sly, Hogan's career is the very best of any Professional Wrestler.. so what did Hogan have to prove by defeating Shawn Michaels?

From the way I see it, since Hogan didn't wanna give Michaels the credit of defeating him, and Hogan instead wanted the credit of defeating H.B.K.. that makes me think Hogan felt threatened by Shawn Michaels career and accomplishments and had to once again "prove" that he was better, dispite being old.

Need more proof? Randy Orton, also at Summerslam. Hogan could barely get off the ground to deliver the world's worst leg drop due to his hips. Yet he once again found the spotlight and the victory in defeating a guy that by all rights would've had more of a legacy built around him by defeating Hogan, than Hogan would've had defeating Orton.

So what was the point? If Hogan wasn't all about himself, then why didn't he do what you want Triple H. and Shawn Michaels to do, and put over the talent? Afterall.. when Hogan defeated H.B.K. and Orton.. he was a one time deal, whereas they were contracted weekly wrestling Superstars.

I get your complaints on H.H.H. & H.B.K., some of which I agree with.. but don't try playing off this Hogan is in the right for doing the same shit crap with me.

.

And the matches with Orton and HBK were meant to be one time deals, and only one time deals. To say that HBK and Orton didn't get a positive rub by simply being in the same ring the calibre of someone like Hogan is wrong. HBK has been in precisely how many main events of Summerslam since his return? Let's see, the wonderful Eliminatino Chamber and the match with Hogan. It kinda proves what I've been saying, HBK is nothing more then a glorified upper mid carder, not a main eventer. He was only in the main event of WM 23 because of an injury, outside of that, nothing significant. Randy Orton rode a great wave of momentum of being associated with Hogan. All that being said, I dare ask, who do you think the people paid to see in those two matches, the answer is the common denominator, and those people went home happy with the results.

All that being said, those were designed to be one time matches. Let's take a look back to 2002, Hogan's last significant run in the company. Put over the Rock, put over the Undertaker, Put Over, Kurt Angle, put over Brock Lesnar. That's more guys he's put over then Triple H has the last 7 years, and that was in a 4 month span.

 

[Moon Knight]

Its the same concept though. You claim Hulk Hogan was the best because of the amount of money he made for the industry. So by that same structure and opinion.. Britney Spears is better than Ozzy.

And Millie Cyrus is the Hulk Hogan of the music industry.



You can't be serious. This coming from a Hogan mark. Watch Mania 1-9.. tell me Hogan didn't do the exact.. same.. shit.

No, scrap that.. you're a Hogan fan.. watch ALL his matches, you tell me one thing he did differently? Slightly sell his opponents finish only to Hulk up & no sell, Big Boot, Leg Drop, 20 minute pose down, night ends.



You ARE talking about Hulk Hogan, aren't you?

Well put Will. I don't see how he can bash Flair while Hogan did the same stuff every match.

 

[Slyfox696]

So when Triple H. and Shawn Michaels do something that sees them as trying to remain at the top and never give the spotlight to anyone else.. its bad. Yet when Hogan does it, its good?

Not putting people over is seen as bad by anyone with a grudge.

The difference is that Triple H and Shawn Michaels haven't earned a fraction of the right to determine who goes over them that Hogan has.

Better yet.. lets relook at this situation..

Hulk Hogan refused to lay down and put Shawn Michaels over at Summerslam a few years back. Why? According to so many, including Sly, Hogan's career is the very best of any Professional Wrestler.. so what did Hogan have to prove by defeating Shawn Michaels?

From the way I see it, since Hogan didn't wanna give Michaels the credit of defeating him, and Hogan instead wanted the credit of defeating H.B.K.. that makes me think Hogan felt threatened by Shawn Michaels career and accomplishments and had to once again "prove" that he was better, dispite being old.

What did Shawn Michaels have to gain by going over Hogan?

HBK is on the downside of his career, has no desire to be a champion, had bad knees which were going to require surgery, and was not interested in doing anything more than what he was doing. What gain does HBK get out of it?

But, I'll tell you where the gain comes from. The gain comes from preserving Hogan's reputation as the best, because the best will draw. If you keep putting people over Hogan, then he goes the way of Ric Flair and Mick Foley...guys who, if you beat, means absolutely nothing anymore. However, by preserving Hogan's image, McMahon can still cash in on that great draw that Hogan is by occasionally prancing him in front of nostalgic fans.

That's where the gain is.

Need more proof? Randy Orton, also at Summerslam. Hogan could barely get off the ground to deliver the world's worst leg drop due to his hips. Yet he once again found the spotlight and the victory in defeating a guy that by all rights would've had more of a legacy built around him by defeating Hogan, than Hogan would've had defeating Orton.

Orton had just come off a 60 day suspension for unprofessional conduct, had just been made Kurt Angle's bitch at One Night Stand, and had no business even BEING in a thread with Hogan, much less beating him. However, despite having absolutely NO momentum before his feud with Hogan (thanks to suspensions and being bitch slapped by Angle), a year later he's the WWE Champion.

I dare say that not going over Hogan didn't exactly harm his career. On the contrary, being in a feud with Hogan got him some steam.

Hulk Hogan being "great" is an opinion based assumption. Hes no more great than Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, Randy Savage, Ric Flair, or any other number of Superstars.

The mere instant someone says anyone is great.. it makes it an opinion, not a fact. Hogan being great is an opinion you have. If I were to say Doink the Clown was great, he'd just of been catagorized with Hogan. Why? Because saying someone is great is an opinion, not a fact.

Hulk Hogan being great is a fact when talking about the wrestling business. If anyone has a claim to being a great of wrestling, it's Hogan.

Seriously?! This shocks the hell out of me from you. Honestly, the man (who as you later say just qualified for Social Security) was rubbing lotion on his 20 yr. old Daughter's private areas.

I assure you there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between changing a 2 yr old's dirty diaper filled butt.. and rubbing a 20 yr old's ass & crotch with lotion. If you call that what 95% of American Father's would do, then I guess I fall into the 5% who DON'T sexually molest their children.

Whats gonna happen when the story finally breaks that Hogan is actually having sex with her? I'm sure its on its way, as pathetic and sad as it is. Seriously Sly.. you defending this honestly disgusts me because its sick. You just tried comparing rubbing lotion on a 20 year old's ass, to changing a baby's diaper.

Will, you just completely missed my whole point.

My whole point is that to assume sex is going on, you have to assume there's sexual attraction and desire. Regarding your child, I'm asking if you have any sexual attraction to your child, because you've seen your child naked. I know you don't, and like 95% of fathers in America, they don't have any sexual attraction to their daughters. Thus, rubbing lotion on your own daughter, for whom you have zero sexual attraction isn't at all wrong, it's just you helping out your family. I mean, when my girlfriend helps clean people at the hospital and has to wash their genitals, does that mean she is sexually molesting them?

The only reason people want to assume there's something wrong going on, is do to the fact that they cannot wrap their own minds around anything other than totally platonic assistance. The fact that people assume there is sexual attraction speaks more for other people's mindset than it does for Hogan.

Am I here defending the action? No, because it was stupid. As innocent as it very well could have been, it was still a stupid thing to do, given how popular they are. But, it doesn't change the fact that the most likely explanation has nothing to do with sexual attraction.

Who's fault is that? If anything, celebs are suppose to be role models for everyone who watch them. Special treatment shouldn't be handed out just because they broke the law and suffered the same effects as a normal person.

I don't give a shit if hes "famous" by relation. Its not my fault he was a moron, so it shouldn't be anyone else's fault for wanting to make a name off of a moron.

Hogan was merely trying to get his child out of having to serve time like normal people, because he thought he was "above" the system. Which also explains why the moron (Hulk) went into the courtroom with his bandana on.

But, Nick Hogan isn't a celebrity. He's the child of a celebrity, who will be picked on due to his father's celebrity status. Just because he's a celebrity doesn't vacate any of the rights afforded to any other John or Jane Doe.

And, if you had a child who broke the law, and you felt would be a prime target simply because of who they were, would you not try to do the same thing? Of course you would. To my knowledge, Hogan never objected to Nick going to jail, only to the fact that Nick would be a target of many convicts simply due to Hulk's name.

Then he failed, miserably.

The mere fact you know Brooke's name and know what she does, suggests otherwise.

Yeah, just like my not replying sooner to you was a result of what gets produced from sex.

That reminds me...I need to go buy some more condoms...

If Hogan's hobby is American Gladiators, then he should've signed up to be an entry to compete on the show. Not try and overshadow the entire thing, by plastering his face all over it.

That doesn't make any sense.

Are you then telling me that, by acting as an analyst on whatever sports show he's on, Steve Young is doing it solely for money and spotlight, and not because it's something he enjoys doing?

Thats because Hulk Hogan was a big part of creating Professional Wrestling. I never discounted that.. but it was also in the 80's.. this is going on 30 years later.. his time has come and way past gone. Legends are what they are, for being what they were.. not continuing to attempt being the main source of everything.

He still, as much as anyone, the personification of professional wrestling.

Like it or not.

Once again with the ratings.

You see, this is what I love about your views. One guy either makes or breaks a show. Yet earlier you said the show wasn't about him, it was about his Family.. so with that, wouldn't it of been his Family that gave the show those "high ratings?" Wouldn't it of been those "staged acts" that made viewers buy into the crap they were putting on?

Afterall, thats all Hulk Hogan's ever been.. one big joke.

His family wasn't the reason that Hulkamania was successful. His family wasn't the reason the nWo was the biggest angle in the 20th century. His family wasn't the reason American Gladiators was successful.

Sure, the interaction between his family is what drew the VH1 ratings, but you know as well as I do, that where Hogan goes, success follows...

...sometimes.

What exactly is Hulk Hogan remembered for? Slamming Andre? Selling out arenas? Being the Main guy at the top of the business? Being a World Champion?

So you're telling me he would've done all that, without Randy Savage, Ric Flair, Andre, Ted Dibiase, the Ultimate Warrior, and all the others? I don't think so. Hulk Hogan made it big because of how he ran with his character.. but it was the supporting cast that helped MAKE the character.

Warrior at Mania VI.. Andre at Mania III.. Savage and Hogan through out. Flair and Hogan throughout.. without them, Hogan would just be some big built guy, in red and yellow colors, waving a flag.

Hulk Hogan is remembered as being the icon, not just for professional wrestling, but for millions of wrestling fans and children all over the world. He's remembered as being the ultimate good guy, the man who fights against evil, in all of its forms. He's remembered as being the man who brought professional wrestling back into the main stream.

It didn't matter who he wrestled, he did that regardless. Did Roddy Piper serve as a good adversary? Sure. Was slamming Andre iconic? Absolutely. But, if it wouldn't have been them, it would have been someone else.

Which if anything is a clear cut indication that the guy needs to get out of the spotlight.

Consider the vast amount of celebritys past their 60s, I don't see how.

 

[Gifted Music]

This story just goes to show how quickly a fall from grace can occur.. Hulk Hogan used to be revered.. Noone ever thought to criticize him.. But I'm willing to bet Hogan Knows Best did more harm than good.. Lets see, it didn't help Brooke's career at all, it portrayed Hulk in a negative light daily, and the success of the show went straight to the head of Nick and Linda Hogan to the point where they think they;re big stars now..It's that fact that made Nick think he was invincible which ultimately led him to jail.

Combine that with the rep on Hogan's backstage power, his constant refusal to put anyone over, his sneaky business tactics(with HBK)..I actually think that Russo promo on Hogan at Bash of the Beach 99(or 2000, I forget), really started the fall from grace that just continues with Hulk and Nick's jail tapes getting released and hearing what Hogan said about his son's supposed "best friend".. Hulk Hogan used to be a role model..Say your prayers, Eat your Vitamins, the whole thing.. I'm not ashamed to admit he was my role model growing up(especially being he was BORN in Augusta Georgia whereas I was born in Atlanta, Georgia, but I digress), and to see whats become of him today, and to see how hes portrayed and how he acts, its really one of the great tragedies.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

And the matches with Orton and HBK were meant to be one time deals, and only one time deals. To say that HBK and Orton didn't get a positive rub by simply being in the same ring the calibre of someone like Hogan is wrong.

You are about to cause me to go all types of nutcase. The fact is, they didn't have to be one time deals. They were only one time deals, because if they had a repeat, Hogan would have to lose to even out.. and he didn't want to.

He HURT Randy Orton's entire character and gimmick, by defeating Orton. (more on that later.) And he had nothing to gain or prove by defeating Shawn Michaels, and Shawn Michaels was more or less saying that IF he lost (which he did) it was only because Hogan refused to lay down, and demanded the other guy do it for him. (which is exactly what happened.)

HBK has been in precisely how many main events of Summerslam since his return? Let's see, the wonderful Eliminatino Chamber and the match with Hogan. It kinda proves what I've been saying, HBK is nothing more then a glorified upper mid carder, not a main eventer. He was only in the main event of WM 23 because of an injury, outside of that, nothing significant.

Shawn Michaels isn't (this time around) a Main Eventer. Hes tried to stay out of the Main Event, yet continue to be the guy 90% of the fans see him to be.. "the best." He goes out and thrills fans with some of the best matches on the card. He leaves them shocked, amazed and happy to have seen him in action.

Hogan went out, posed a lot, hit a couple big moves that made the fans pop, and posed a lot again. Honestly, Hogan and H.B.K. are even in HOW they electrify the fans.. but Shawn excites them by what he does in the ring, through wrestling. Hogan excites them by showing off his arms.

Randy Orton rode a great wave of momentum of being associated with Hogan.

Okay.. this is the biggest issue. Randy Orton's entire gimmick is that of a "Legend Killer." But the biggest legend hes really destroyed, is arguably Shawn Michaels.

Orton's entire career would've been made if he would've been able to merely pin Hogan's shoulders to the mat for a 3 count. Just once. Orton could've rematched and lost to Hogan cleanly even after that, and still would've been better off.

But because as you said, it was only meant to be a one time deal.. it went in favor of the wrong guy. Orton is in his 20's to my knowledge. Short of injuries ending his career, hes the future of the business.. so you tell me what a 50 yr. old man is doing going over him? How on EARTH does that benefit the business for its future, by saying its future talent isn't capable enough of defeating its previous talent, even after they've hit and lost their prime?!

Hogan fucked Orton over.. plain and simple.

All that being said, I dare ask, who do you think the people paid to see in those two matches, the answer is the common denominator, and those people went home happy with the results.

The people would most commonly cheer for the face, so of course those types would leave happy. But those who have a passion for the true in-depth portion of the business would be disgusted at the fact that an old guy can't hand the fucking torch to a younger guy.

Shawn Michaels losing is a hit or miss. It doesn't truly make or break his career. However my biggest complaint is Orton. Orton's loss to Hogan WAS a bad decision. It made his whole character look like a joke. As if Orton can completely destroy the lesser named "Legends" like Jake Roberts, Sgt. Slaughter, Moolah, and Dusty Rhodes.. but yet he can't defeat the "top" legend in Hulk Hogan.

Orton losing to the Undertaker at Mania should've been the last time they fucked him over by screwing him with his own gimmick. Orton NEVER should've lost to Hulk Hogan. No purpose what so ever, and no amount of "Hogan was face, and he needed to win" will change my mind on how much Hogan copped out in using the "me" card to win that match. Pathetic!

All that being said, those were designed to be one time matches. Let's take a look back to 2002, Hogan's last significant run in the company. Put over the Rock, put over the Undertaker, Put Over, Kurt Angle, put over Brock Lesnar. That's more guys he's put over then Triple H has the last 7 years, and that was in a 4 month span.

Triple H. put over Chris Benoit, Batista and John Cena in 3 straight Wrestlemania Main Events.

Triple H. has also had a hand in making The Rock who he is, by their feuds. (just like Rock in turned helped make H.H.H.)

Triple H. has also allowed guys like the Undertaker, Kurt Angle and even Hulk Hogan go over him.. when in some cases he didn't and shouldn't of had to.

 

[Slyfox696]

Its the same concept though. You claim Hulk Hogan was the best because of the amount of money he made for the industry. So by that same structure and opinion.. Britney Spears is better than Ozzy.

And Millie Cyrus is the Hulk Hogan of the music industry.

It's not the same concept, for the reason I just stated. I thought I wrote it in English, but maybe not.

The difference is the reason for the creation. If Ozzy and Britney both have the same reason to create, then yes, Britney is better. But, as I said, I seriously doubt that Mozart created music for the same reason the Backstreet Boys did.

You can't be serious. This coming from a Hogan mark. Watch Mania 1-9.. tell me Hogan didn't do the exact.. same.. shit.

Watch Wrestlemania 6 and 7 and tell me how they are alike, aside from the same basic face comeback that all WWF/E wrestlers have ever used.

No, scrap that.. you're a Hogan fan.. watch ALL his matches, you tell me one thing he did differently? Slightly sell his opponents finish only to Hulk up & no sell, Big Boot, Leg Drop, 20 minute pose down, night ends.

But see, you're not talking about Hogan's career, you're talking about a rough 6 year time frame from 88-94. Other than that, the only time he does that routine is in his now nostalgic appearances. Watch Hogan's AWA stuff, watch his early WWF stuff. Watch his Japan stuff. Watch his heel nWo work.

Tell me how any of that fits the description of what you just said.

You ARE talking about Hulk Hogan, aren't you?

No, I'm talking about Flair. Watch Hogan's work from the sources I mentioned above, and then get back to me.

Well put Will. I don't see how he can bash Flair while Hogan did the same stuff every match.

Except that he didn't, and if you would actually watch matches that I directed you to, you'd see that.

 

[Slyfox696]

He HURT Randy Orton's entire character and gimmick, by defeating Orton. (more on that later.) And he had nothing to gain or prove by defeating Shawn Michaels, and Shawn Michaels was more or less saying that IF he lost (which he did) it was only because Hogan refused to lay down, and demanded the other guy do it for him. (which is exactly what happened.)

I'm not even going to read the rest of this post, because this is completely inaccurate.

How did Hogan hurt Orton's career? Orton had come back from 2 months suspension (his second suspension), an injury, and being made Kurt Angle's bitch at One Night Stand. A year after his match with Hogan, he was the WWE champion.

Please tell me how his feud with Hogan hurt Orton's career, when all evidence is to the contrary.

As for Michaels, I've already explained that.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Sly, when I return later tonight/tomorrow I assure you I shall be replying.

 

[Moon Knight]

It's not the same concept, for the reason I just stated. I thought I wrote it in English, but maybe not.

The difference is the reason for the creation. If Ozzy and Britney both have the same reason to create, then yes, Britney is better. But, as I said, I seriously doubt that Mozart created music for the same reason the Backstreet Boys did.

It is the same concept. Both created music because they loved it and both were signed to record deals because the company thought there was money there. Same basic reasons behind why Hogan and Flair wrestle and why they got work.

Except that he didn't, and if you would actually watch matches that I directed you to, you'd see that.

He did. And I have seen those matches multiple times and stand by what I have said before.

 

[Slyfox696]

Sly, when I return later tonight/tomorrow I assure you I shall be replying.

Well, make it snappy.

I'm on a roll right now. In the meantime, I'm going to find some Hogan matches.


You know, so I can have people point out how they are exactly the same.

 

[Moon Knight]

Sly, when I return later tonight/tomorrow I assure you I shall be replying.

Try to keep it with in 3000 words this time.

 

[Slyfox696]

It is the same concept. Both created music because they loved it and both were signed to record deals because the company thought there was money there. Same basic reasons behind why Hogan and Flair wrestle and why they got work.

How do you know they both loved it? Has all record companies ever said to every single one of their clients "OK, the only music I want you to create is music that will appeal to the largest possible audience"? Because, if they have, I've never heard of it.


Like I said, using the music industry to compare to the wrestling industry is not valid.

He did. And I have seen those matches multiple times and stand by what I have said before.

I'll address this in a second.

 

[Moon Knight]

How do you know they both loved it? Has all record companies ever said to every single one of their clients "OK, the only music I want you to create is music that will appeal to the largest possible audience"? Because, if they have, I've never heard of it.


Like I said, using the music industry to compare to the wrestling industry is not valid.

It is valid, they have both chosen to make music for most of their lives and shown dedication to it. Why do something for half your life that you hate when you could easily do something different?

What? The record companies hired them because they thought their music at the time could make them a profit, what other reason is there?

As for Flair and Hogan, why did their companies hire them? Because they thought there was money there. How is that different from why Spears and Osbourne got their deals? It's the same reason, money.

 

[Moon Knight]

I'll address this in a second.

Why? Neither of us will change our minds so why bother?

 

[Slyfox696]

He did. And I have seen those matches multiple times and stand by what I have said before.

Match 1:

[youtube]KIuEcao2cCM[/youtube]
[youtube]qXg-P7Vw2c0[/youtube]
[youtube]SV039F5l92A[/youtube]
[youtube]WOSj8iYMK_Y[/youtube]


Match 2:

[youtube]Z9-T0jtelrQ[/youtube]
[youtube]TOT42cD1qT4[/youtube]
[youtube]kDosZwBe-D8[/youtube]


Please tell me how those two matches are anything alike.