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Hulk Hogan, Brother

I Never did like hogan even when i was a kid. I would constantly didnt get why there was so much hype for him in the late 90s.

The problem with hogan is that he is still riding the coat tails to what he did in the 90s. I have to admit it he played a big role in getting wwe and wrestling to where it is today with the help of fellow wrestlers. Hogans big let down was he was getting a big head and wanted to bigger than the sport. He became too greedy and selfish and cared too much about his own needs.

I dont blame Hart and austin for disliking the guy. Hogan didnt want to job to upcoming guys to give them a rub because he had too much pride. Without charisma and steroid hogan wouldnt have been bigger than he was today. If you look at hogans videos and pics after the steroids trial during early 90s the guy came out small.

It takes 2 wrestlers to put on a good match and to elvaluate one another. Hogan always wanted the spotlight on himself. Too me hogan was a basic wrestler who capitalised on size, charima and going against really good heels.
He had 5 basic moves
Scoop slam
Big boot
Three left and right handed punches followed by a big right wind-up punch
Back rake
Bear hug

Now who can botch that shit? Hogan capitalised on his pop culture. He was a hero who would overcome the bad guys. Now we have a lame version potrayed by john cena.

Watch paul orndoff go against hogan. This is a good example of a great wrestler embarassing hogan in a wrestling match

IMHO, throughout Hogan's career, Orndorff was his toughest opponent. In 3 meetings in 1986, Hogan was in a dogfight. In this match and the SNME match, Hogan won by default, and in their cage match, Hogan won by escaping out of the cage. However, unlike almost all of his other opponents, he didn't pin Orndorff. And, Orndorff probably would have won his 3rd match had he not spent so much time arguing with the ref about stupid things. Anyone agree?
 
The is no denying that Hogan was a great draw. This came about from his great charisma along with his mainstream exposure from Rocky III and the Rock n' Wrestling connection that birthed Wrestlemania. However, he does not have great ring psychology as slyfox claims.
Hogan wrestled the exact same match for 10 years. Hogan starts out with the upper hand, dominating the heel. Somehow through some treachery or underhanded tricks the heel takes control and beats down Hogan for an extended period of time. Suddenly Hogan miracuously recovers with his "Hulking Up" and prances around the ring as the heel desperately punches at him to no effect. Heel punches Hogan one last time, no effect, wags the finger, Hogan blocks another punch. Several punches later we have an irish whip, big boot and a leg drop for the 1-2-3.
I'm sorry but it's insulting to fans intelligences for Hogan to always be beaten down only to show no signs of fatigue a couple minutes later and hulk up before hitting the boot and leg drop.

If you want to talk about ring psychology, what about Flair, Michaels, Dibiase...these are examples of men who could get in a ring and tell a great story and not be repetative as Hogan was. Yes, Hogan could draw a crowd off his mainstream appeal and charisma, but he has always sucked in the ring because of his simplistic ring psychology.
 
Yeah he had the charisma and was used by wwe to draw in the crowds. but to me it was all the same thing as has been said above.

and yet the thing is he managed to turn the fact that he wasn't a gr8 technical wrestler and make money from it.

True he developed a God complex later in his career when he couldnt manage to take a loss.
 
It makes a great deal of sense, actually. How many "nobody" wrestlers actually go on to make a whole lot of money? Answer: not very many.

So, the point of the argument is that there has to be a deeper motivation to get into the business....and thus, perhaps because they truly love the sport.

If these guys were all about making a lot of money, they would go and become stock brokers.
Just because random indy wrestler #7 sucks hardcore and nobody is willing to pay him more money, doesn't mean he doesn't WANT more money. Just means that he sucks and no one is willing to pay him more money.

And, any guys who make $30 per match are probably working other jobs too. I assure you, money is a driving motivator for almost all wrestlers.

The problem with hogan is that he is still riding the coat tails to what he did in the 90s. I have to admit it he played a big role in getting wwe and wrestling to where it is today with the help of fellow wrestlers. Hogans big let down was he was getting a big head and wanted to bigger than the sport. He became too greedy and selfish and cared too much about his own needs.
Umm, he was just following Rule #1 in professional wrestling: "Always look out for number 1".

I don't understand why people get mad because Hogan is a good businessman.

I dont blame Hart and austin for disliking the guy. Hogan didnt want to job to upcoming guys to give them a rub because he had too much pride. Without charisma and steroid hogan wouldnt have been bigger than he was today. If you look at hogans videos and pics after the steroids trial during early 90s the guy came out small.
And yet, you take away steroids from EVERYONE else in the wrestling business and Hulk Hogan is still one of the strongest guys.

I mean, let's play fair. If we're going to take away steroids from Hogan, take steroids away from everyone and see how Hogan fares.

My bet is that Hogan would STILL be the mega superstar.

It takes 2 wrestlers to put on a good match and to elvaluate one another. Hogan always wanted the spotlight on himself. Too me hogan was a basic wrestler who capitalised on size, charima and going against really good heels.
He had 5 basic moves
Scoop slam
Big boot
Three left and right handed punches followed by a big right wind-up punch
Back rake
Bear hug

Now who can botch that shit? Hogan capitalised on his pop culture. He was a hero who would overcome the bad guys. Now we have a lame version potrayed by john cena.
:lmao:

That's all that needs to be said here.

Watch paul orndoff go against hogan. This is a good example of a great wrestler embarassing hogan in a wrestling match

IMHO, throughout Hogan's career, Orndorff was his toughest opponent. In 3 meetings in 1986, Hogan was in a dogfight. In this match and the SNME match, Hogan won by default, and in their cage match, Hogan won by escaping out of the cage. However, unlike almost all of his other opponents, he didn't pin Orndorff. And, Orndorff probably would have won his 3rd match had he not spent so much time arguing with the ref about stupid things. Anyone agree?
It's still real to me damnit! :rolleyes:

However, he does not have great ring psychology as slyfox claims.
Hogan wrestled the exact same match for 10 years. Hogan starts out with the upper hand, dominating the heel. Somehow through some treachery or underhanded tricks the heel takes control and beats down Hogan for an extended period of time. Suddenly Hogan miracuously recovers with his "Hulking Up" and prances around the ring as the heel desperately punches at him to no effect. Heel punches Hogan one last time, no effect, wags the finger, Hogan blocks another punch. Several punches later we have an irish whip, big boot and a leg drop for the 1-2-3.
How is that poor psychology? That's great face/heel psychology, with the super hero coming out on top.

And, if you don't think so, millions of people every match did.


I'm sorry but it's insulting to fans intelligences for Hogan to always be beaten down only to show no signs of fatigue a couple minutes later and hulk up before hitting the boot and leg drop.
And yet, millions of fans for over a decade felt differently, as evidenced by raucous crowds every show Hogan sold out.

But, of course, today's fans are just smarter than those other fans right? :rolleyes:

If you want to talk about ring psychology, what about Flair, Michaels, Dibiase...these are examples of men who could get in a ring and tell a great story and not be repetative as Hogan was. Yes, Hogan could draw a crowd off his mainstream appeal and charisma, but he has always sucked in the ring because of his simplistic ring psychology.
HAHAHAHA.

Flair? Are you serious? Great in-ring psychology? This is a guy who forced every opponent he faced to work the same illogical and ill-conceived match every where he went, complete with his ridiculous and unrealistic selling and spotty work style.

True he developed a God complex later in his career when he couldnt manage to take a loss.
Yeah, except for the numerous times he put over talent such as Warrior, Sting, Goldberg, Billy Kidman (yes, Billy fucking Kidman), The Rock, Brock Lesnar, Kurt Angle etc. :rolleyes:

If you want to throw this "never puts anyone over" around, then I think you should place that squarely on Stone Cold Steve Austin. It's amazing to me how people can bash Hogan for repeatedly putting other wrestlers over time and again clean 1-2-3, and yet never utter a word about Steve Austin's constant refusal to do the same.
 
Umm, he was just following Rule #1 in professional wrestling: "Always look out for number 1".

I don't understand why people get mad because Hogan is a good businessman.


Okay now i've been following this thread for awhile but this is absolutely absurd. How is always looking out yourself good for business? Its not because he didn't understand putting other people to continue the business. Think about it Hogan never put the face of the next generation over, which was Bret Hart. When ti came time for Hart leave he did out Austin over in there feud. The Rock put over the guy who was supposed to be the face of the next generation, Brock Lesnar before Lesnar decided to leave for the NFL. So by Hogan looking out for himself he was not being a good business man just a selfish man holding on to his moment of fame.
 
Okay now i've been following this thread for awhile but this is absolutely absurd. How is always looking out yourself good for business? Its not because he didn't understand putting other people to continue the business. Think about it Hogan never put the face of the next generation over, which was Bret Hart. When ti came time for Hart leave he did out Austin over in there feud. The Rock put over the guy who was supposed to be the face of the next generation, Brock Lesnar before Lesnar decided to leave for the NFL. So by Hogan looking out for himself he was not being a good business man just a selfish man holding on to his moment of fame.
Ok, first, I'm not sure if you understood what I was trying to say.

What I'm saying is that the number one rule in professional wrestling is to always look out for yourself. Because, the professional wrestling world is notorious for backstabbing, money-gouging and generally just shady business. Hulk Hogan was doing as any good businessman would do, which is to maximize his profits. I did not say he was doing what was best for the business, but rather what was best for himself.

Now, to correct a few other errors. First, Hart did not put over Austin on his way out to help the business. Austin and Hart were feuding in late 1996. They met again at Wrestlemania 13 because Shawn Michaels was immature and unwilling to meet Hart again in a match and return the favor to Bret. Finally, Bret did not leave the WWF until November 1997.

And, where do you get off saying Hogan never did anything to help the business? Hulk Hogan did more things for the business than any other wrestler ever. He brought wrestling main-stream. He was the frontrunner to merchandising for professional wrestlers, and their ability to draw money from that. He brought the wrestling business through not just one, but TWO boom periods. He re-defined the way promoters look at draws and re-defined the ability to be a heel. Hulk Hogan has done more for the business than anyone else.

Now, this is where you will probably want to say something like "yes, but he never put anyone over like Hart did with Austin, Rock with Lesnar, etc.". And this is completely ridiculous. Wrestlemania 6, 1990, Hulk Hogan layed down for a clean 1-2-3 to the guy that was chosen to be the next huge draw in the WWF, in the Ultimate Warrior. In 1998, Hogan layed down for a clean 1-2-3 for the guy chosen by the WCW to be the next huge draw for them, in Bill Goldberg and did so on free TV. And, in 2002, Wrestlemania 18, Hogan layed down for a clean 1-2-3 to the guy who was to carry on The Attitude era as the next long term huge star, in the Rock.

There are three separate times where Hulk Hogan, in a big time situation, passed the torch. He can't help the fact that Warrior is a nutcase, WCW was poorly run by Bischoff and his loss to Goldberg was ruined, or that Rock was bigger than wrestling.

Hulk Hogan has done more for the wrestling business and its fans than anyone else over the course of his 25+ year career. To suggest otherwise is completely asinine.
 
I never said anything about hogan not doing anything for the business because anyone knows hogan did make wrestling but the 2 guys he tried to put over both just happened to be fairly generic power houses that when you look back on it were not great wrestlers. And hogan didn't really put the rock over because at that point the rock was already insanely over and didn't need hogan but i admit it was a great moment, similar to andre and hogan with 2 mega stars from 2 eras going head to head.
 
I always enjoy watching SlyFox debate a Hogan thread. I am not a Hogan fan by any stretch and I never have been. But Sly argues him well. So, I have an analogy that I would like to see SlyFox take on.

I look at Hogan the way I look at the Cigarette Industry.

1. America was build on the financial windfall of the tobacco crop. Pro Wrestling was built on the back of Hulk Hogan.

2. To create the tobacco crop, slave labor was used. To create Hulk Hogan, other wrestlers were used in the form of "doing the job."

3. Tobacco makes the user feel good for a while, but does damage to everyone around it, making them sick and damaging their health. Hulk Hogan made Vince McMahon and Ted Turner feel good for a little while, but made people around him sick and damaged their careers.

4. Tobacco is a negative product made popular by the most ingenious product marketing plan in history. Hulk Hogan is a negative product made popular by the most ingenious personal brand marketing plan in history.

5. Tobacco causes cancer and eventually kills the user. Hulk Hogan causes locker room cancer than eventually kills the user. See: WCW. (yes, I know Hogan was not the ONLY reason for that.

Try it on for size...

IC25
 
I never said anything about hogan not doing anything for the business because anyone knows hogan did make wrestling but the 2 guys he tried to put over both just happened to be fairly generic power houses that when you look back on it were not great wrestlers. And hogan didn't really put the rock over because at that point the rock was already insanely over and didn't need hogan but i admit it was a great moment, similar to andre and hogan with 2 mega stars from 2 eras going head to head.
Both Warrior and Goldberg, at the time Hogan put them over, were insanely over, and were twice the draw Bret Hart ever was. Don't get me wrong, I love Hart as much as anyone, but he was never as big as Warrior or Goldberg at the time Hogan layed down for them.

Just because those two guys didn't work out, doesn't mean that Hogan didn't try and put over the next major superstars of the business. You have to remember, Hart was only made the man in the WWF after Warrior, Savage, Flair, Luger, and Sid all could not handle it.
 
I always enjoy watching SlyFox debate a Hogan thread. I am not a Hogan fan by any stretch and I never have been. But Sly argues him well. So, I have an analogy that I would like to see SlyFox take on.

I look at Hogan the way I look at the Cigarette Industry.

1. America was build on the financial windfall of the tobacco crop. Pro Wrestling was built on the back of Hulk Hogan.

2. To create the tobacco crop, slave labor was used. To create Hulk Hogan, other wrestlers were used in the form of "doing the job."

3. Tobacco makes the user feel good for a while, but does damage to everyone around it, making them sick and damaging their health. Hulk Hogan made Vince McMahon and Ted Turner feel good for a little while, but made people around him sick and damaged their careers.

4. Tobacco is a negative product made popular by the most ingenious product marketing plan in history. Hulk Hogan is a negative product made popular by the most ingenious personal brand marketing plan in history.

5. Tobacco causes cancer and eventually kills the user. Hulk Hogan causes locker room cancer than eventually kills the user. See: WCW. (yes, I know Hogan was not the ONLY reason for that.

Try it on for size...

IC25

Meh, that's really a poor example. Hulk Hogan is not responsible for other wrestlers careers. If they are not good enough to warrant getting the type of booking Hogan did, than that's not his fault. That's like saying we should blame Microsoft for Macintosh's not being more popular with home PC owners. Hogan was just better than others, end of story.

The only thing Hogan needs to worry about is how his career affects his life, and the wrestling business as a whole. Hogan was the key figure in the WWF dismantling the AWA and the NWA, ending the territory system and making Vince McMahon a very very wealthy man. Hogan was then the main figure in WCW becoming popular and nearly bankrupting McMahon. If it wasn't for Hogan, there is a strong possibility that WCW would never have been what it was in 1996-1999. It's not Hogan's fault Eric Bischoff was completely clueless on how to use talent.

And, when did Hogan EVER kill the WWF when he was a part of it? The only time the WWF almost died was when Hogan was on the other side of the battle line.


I appreciate the attempt, but your example really isn't a very strong one.
 
My main issue in the ongoing Hogan ability debate resides with the constant, "have you never seen any of his matches from Japan?", crap. Honestly, I cannot say I have seen loads of these matches, but I have witnessed a hand-full. My problem with this arguement has nothing to do with the fact the people say the matches are different. Hogan does perform differently in these matches. My problem is that just because he uses different move sets doesn't make him or the matches any better. He adds moves like the double axe and the enziguri(yes, hogan performed this move...blows my mind a little). However, he doesn't come close to performing them as well as most wrestlers do. Many claim he wasn't very good in the ring. Hogan siders counter that you don't need to do flashy moves to be a great wrestler....yet they then point to these matches to prove he does some of these said moves. Nobody will ever convince me that Hogan is even close to one of the greatest wrestlers of all time. He was the biggest draw of all-time....he is the biggest superstar of all time. I can't however imagine someone truly believing that this man is a better wrestler than Michaels, Flair, Hart, Jericho, Benoit, Owen, Taker, Curt, or even Edge. You can pretty much name any wrestler who is considered a descent worker and they are superior in most areas of the ring. IMO.
 
No offense to you personally Slyfox, but I'm not sure how you can try to argue that Hulk Hogan had better in ring psychology than Ric Flair. Hogan's psychology was poor for two reasons. First, for him to suddenly no-sell his opponents offense after being beaten down is disrespecting the audiences intelligences and also leads to my second point. Hogan buries his opponents. When Hogan would beat an opponent, he not only won the match, he made his opponent look weak and in essence buried them. For example, Wrestlemania V, Hogan and Savage wrestling a grueling match with Savage gaining the upperhand and in control. Savage hits his finisher, the Elbow Drop and goes for the cover. Hogan tosses him off like a rag doll and gets right up like nothing happened. Years later in WCW at a Clash of the Champions, Hogan is powerbombed by Vader and stands right up like he didn't feel a thing. He takes arguably the most devastating move in wrestling from the most powerful man to ever do it and he acts like nothing happened. What happens when Hogan does that is it sends a clear message to fans everywhere. The opponent (Savage, Vader, Mr. Perfect, Rick Rude, I could name wrestlers forever....) hit Hogan with everything they had and Hogan stood up and it didn't faze him. By doing this Hogan not only wins the match, he also destroys his opponents credibility and buries them. Perfect and Rude should have been main eventers in the WWF in the late 80's and early 90's but they didn't have the credibility with the fans because of Hogan constantly burying them in matches.

Flair on the other hand, was the master of elevating his opponents to his level. Flair was the man in the NWA, he traveled around the country going from territory to territory defending the championship against the best face each territory had to offer. Every night he was able to just barely squeeze out a win by some sort of underhanded trick. He made the crowd feel as though there hero had the upperhand on the champion and they would of won if 'x' had not happened. When Flair left, the face who wrestled him would be better off and have more credibility because he was given a rub from Flair, not buried.
 
Good post NateCook. It is humerous to try and sell Hogan as a fantastic wrestler with great in ring psychology.Every match he ever had...in the states...consisted of him getting his ass beat, normally taking a finisher...or a chair...or some other equally devestating action only to power at at 2 and start "the most amazing comeback I have ever seen!" I really like to point to the HBK book when talking about wrestlers looking strong. In relation to his working the LOD he stated that he always believed if you had a great match everyone looked strong. LOD refused to sell...they had to be hit numerous time just to go off their feet. Hogan may not have refused to go down but his way of bringing himself back was the worst no-sell in the history of the industry. I'm not saying it wasn't popular and that it didn't work....it's just counter-productive. I always felt, whats the point of the match? Just let him hit the three punches, big boot, leg drop and I can turn the channel already.
 
My main issue in the ongoing Hogan ability debate resides with the constant, "have you never seen any of his matches from Japan?", crap. Honestly, I cannot say I have seen loads of these matches, but I have witnessed a hand-full. My problem with this arguement has nothing to do with the fact the people say the matches are different. Hogan does perform differently in these matches. My problem is that just because he uses different move sets doesn't make him or the matches any better. He adds moves like the double axe and the enziguri(yes, hogan performed this move...blows my mind a little).
The reason Hogan supporters bring it up is because some people just don't understand that moves don't make a wrestling match. And so, they think just because Hogan DIDN'T do those moves, that means he COULDN'T do those moves.

So, we use that as proof that he could use the moves, but it just wouldn't fit his character with the US style of wrestling. Thus, it would have been poor psychology.

No offense to you personally Slyfox, but I'm not sure how you can try to argue that Hulk Hogan had better in ring psychology than Ric Flair.
Quite simple really. Watch their matches, and you'll see why.

Hogan's psychology was poor for two reasons. First, for him to suddenly no-sell his opponents offense after being beaten down is disrespecting the audiences intelligences
No it isn't. This is just plain stupid. It was playing to the audience. That's called working the crowd, and using good match psychology. It's not like he just all of a sudden was full of energy and untouched. He slowly worked his way back into the match, slowly building steam from the millions and millions of Hulkamaniacs, all of whom were going absolutely bonkers, spurring Hogan on any more. Behind the strength of the Hulkamaniacs, and his own indomitable will, Hogan would battle back, and finally get the upper hand on his opponent, and Good would triumph once again over Evil.

It was great wrestling psychology. To say otherwise doesn't even make sense.

And this whole "insutling the audience's intelligence" nonsense is completely baseless. If it was really that insulting to their intelligence, how come wrestling fans would go absolutely nuts when he started to "Hulk up"? How come fans TODAY, still go wild when he starts to "Hulk up"? It's not insulting, it's great theatrics.

and also leads to my second point. Hogan buries his opponents. When Hogan would beat an opponent, he not only won the match, he made his opponent look weak and in essence buried them.
:lmao:

Have you ever even watched a Hogan match? Hogan was one of the best sellers in wrestling history, willing to take big bumps and blade to put over his opponents.

God, this blind Hogan bashing is reaching borderline stupidity.

Flair on the other hand, was the master of elevating his opponents to his level. Flair was the man in the NWA, he traveled around the country going from territory to territory defending the championship against the best face each territory had to offer. Every night he was able to just barely squeeze out a win by some sort of underhanded trick. He made the crowd feel as though there hero had the upperhand on the champion and they would of won if 'x' had not happened. When Flair left, the face who wrestled him would be better off and have more credibility because he was given a rub from Flair, not buried.
:lmao:

You haven't actually watched many Flair matches when they actually occurred have you?

Here, Bret Hart says it much better than I ever could.




Bret Hart said:
I’m sure that if wrestling fans will give some thought to what I’ve
written here, you’ll find it to be more accurate and far more interesting than
Ric Flair’s book.
I don’t know if I’m more infuriated or disappointed by the derogatory
things he wrote, not just about me, but about other hard working members of
the wrestling fraternity, like Randy Savage and Mick Foley. I wasn’t going
to comment because I didn’t want to promote Flair’s book for him, but as has
become usual in wrestling the truth is getting rewritten again and I’m one of
the few guys who is trying to preserve an accurate chronicle of the wrestling
of our era.
It bears mentioning that if I didn’t have some measure of respect for
Flair his comments wouldn’t have phased me one way or the other. Sadly, the
way he has jumped to erroneous conclusions and put them out there for the
public as the truth has eroded whatever respect I had for him. Everybody has a
right to their opinion, but in my view a valid opinion should be backed up by
facts.
Yes, I did make some unflattering comments about Flair and Hogan back
in the early 90’s. I then rethought what I’d said and in the interest of doing
business with them, for the greater good of the business, I made a sincere
effort to apologize to both of them, publicly and privately. They each shook
my hand and told me not to worry about it and that it wasn’t an issue, but when
I got to WCW I was never given any kind of a chance and whether either one
or both of them was behind it I’ll probably never know, other than hearsay.
Now, years later, Hogan and Flair have both spoken inaccurately about me and
have tried to debunk and minimize my contributions to a business that I was
born into and have devoted my life to with deep passion and dedication.
Wrestling wasn’t just a job for me, it was the only way of life I knew long before
either Hogan or Flair laced up a pair of boots and took their first wrestling
lesson to see what it was like.
Never, in all my life, have I ever been so infuriated by ridiculous
statements made about me. Perhaps they were purposely designed to get my
response and sell more books, who knows. Who cares?
Flair talks about how I could be the president of my own fan club. All
I can say is, he’s one to talk! Self promotion was an intricate key to any
wrestler making it in the business. He convinced a legion of fans that he
was the best in the business - and there’s nothing wrong with that. He even
convinced himself. But his peers, the guys who worked with him night after
night, know better. How could any fan know what kind of a worker Ric Flair
really is without actually working with him?
Flair says that I believed my own press and convinced myself that I’m
the best there is. When I boast about being the best there is, it is because
of three reasons. The first and most important is that I never injured any
wrestler in any way despite my physical style. This is something in which I
take a lot of pride and I don’t know of anyone, who worked a schedule on par
with mine for as long as I did, who can truthfully make that same claim. The
second reason is that in the fourteenyears I was with the WWF, often wrestling
three hundred times per year, I missed but one match - and that was due to a
canceled flight. Again, I don’t think there is anyone who worked that schedule
who can truthfully make that claim. Everyone on the road worked hard but I
was proud to be counted among the handful of guys with an exceptionally
dedicated work ethic. The third reason is that throughout my career I never once
refused to put over a fellow wrestler - except at Survivor Series ‘97. In a
conversation that I had with Shawn Michaels three weeks before Montreal, when I
was champion, I told him that despite our differences, I wanted him to know
that he was safe working with me in the ring and that I had no problem
whatsoever putting him over. Shawn’s exact words to me were, “I appreciate that,
but I want you to know that I’m not willing to do the same thing for you.” This
was just plain unprofessional. Putting him over would have condoned his
disrespect, not just for me but for the honor of old school ways. Vince told me
that I could leave any way I liked, not to mention the fact that I had
contractual creative control for my last thirty days. The idea for him to beat me in
Canada was solely conceived to ruin me as a commodity in my home country where
WCW had big plans for me. Not to mention that when Shawn Michaels mocked
fornicating with the Canadian flag in the middle of the ring it went beyond
being personal to me, my fans, and my country!
I remember Ric Flair and Bobby Heenan coming up to me in the
dressing room in Nashville on May 6, 1989. I was in the Hart Foundation at the
time and Flair told me he was honored to shake my hand. I had never seen him
work. Being on the WWF road schedule made it nearly impossible to catch any
wrestling matches on TV because we were almost always working or traveling when
wrestling was on. From what little I did see of the NWA my impression was that
their TV show at that time was poorly produced and made the wrestlers come
off as second rate. Despite that, I’d been lead to believe, like everyone
else, that Ric Flair was the best in the business. I always wondered, if he was
the best why wasn’t he in the big league WWF? His popularity at that time
was largely concentrated in the deep south. I appreciated his compliment and
hoped I might have the chance to work with this legend some day.
About a year later Flair was head booker at WCW and he made me an offer
to come work there for money good enough that I had to seriously consider it.
As it turned out, Flair was unable to back up his offer and the deal
fell through when he nervously reneged. I lost respect for him and his word and
smartly chose to stay put in the WWF instead.
Eventually, Flair showed up in the WWF with the WCW belt and I was
somewhat surprised when he shamelessly crapped all over the history of the
territory that made him by not giving them their belt back. To this day I don’t
know what would make him hurt his fellow wrestlers and their struggling company
like that. I admit I don’t know all the facts on this so I won’t comment
any further about it, and Ric should have done the same with me.
Flair was trumpeted into the WWF with great fan fare and at last, one
night in New Haven, I was thrilled to defend the IC belt against this great
legend in an unscheduled dark match that was taped for Coliseum video. I knew
more about ring psychology and real wrestling at the ripe age of nine than Ric
Flair knew in his entire lifetime yet out of respect I let him lead the match.
Ric suggested a finish that called for me to do a flying cross body where he
would subsequently catch me and stagger backwards with the two of us toppling
over the top rope only to be counted out for the finish. It was a simple but
risky move that I’d done countless times before with lesser wrestlers but at
the end of the match when I dove into Flair he stood too far from the ropes,
mistimed it , and he simply didn’t have the strength to catch me so we fell
down in an embarrassing heap. Ric suddenly came up with a new make shift finish
that, not surprisingly, benefited him and not me. It absolutely stunk but
these things sometimes tend to happen when two wrestlers work together for
the very first time. Although the match had been taped and can still be seen
today I wasn’t going to make any kind of a big deal about it, but back in
the dressing room I was annoyed to hear Flair painting out to everybody that
somehow I had messed up the finish, implying that I was still a young up and
comer. If you understand wrestling, you know that all I could do was dive
into his arms and the rest was up to him. He proved to me, right then, that he
was full of it and was no legend at all.
Ric was an old fox that took such liberties every time he thought he
could get away with it. You’ll find nary a wrestler that would describe me,
Savage or Foley as back stabbers or sneaky liberty takers, but with Flair you
better take a number!
I remember Flair worked with Randy Savage who, like me, was lead to
believe the same crap about how great Flair was when they had a Saturday
Night’s Main Event TV match in Hershey on September 1, 1992. He somehow
became WWF champion and Vince McMahon carefully constructed an elaborate storyline
for this very important match. I was standing right next to Vince watching
the match live on a backstage monitor when Vince blew his stack as he watched
Ric do absolutely nothing he told him to do. Ric has never been able to do
anything but his one routine match, which consists of cartoon high spots
borrowed from Jackie Fargo and midget wrestlers, along with an assortment of tired
old ripped off Buddy Rogers high spots. My dad always called Flair a
“routine man” - because he did the exact same routine every night, every where,
and was forever stuck with it. An angry Vince met Flair as he came through the
curtain and he furiously ordered both Flair and an exasperated Randy to march
right back out and redo the entire match the way he’d told them to do it!
Even then, as I remember it, Flair was still unable to impress Vince.
Personally, I would have been shamed with embarrassment to ever put the promotion,
myself, or my opponent through such a farce! I recall telling Randy that I
thought Flair was ‘thirty minutes of non stop non psychology’ and Randy
shook his head and laughed along with me at how true it was.
I can tell you first hand that Ric Flair was not a great worker at
all. Yes, he did hilarious interviews but, to my taste, I never thought a
world champion was supposed to be hilariously amusing. Granted, Flair was
entertaining to watch - and there’s nothing wrong with that. In fact, Flair’s magnetism and charisma distracted from and offset his limited
ability in the ring. The single greatest contribution that Flair ever gave to
pro wrestling was the wooo from his silly chops. First off, chops hurt - and in
my opinion they look like crap.
For Flair to demean Randy Savage and Mick Foley is outrageous! In my
opinion, as someone who has worked with all three of them (and everybody else
from that era too) Ric Flair couldn't even lace up Randy and Mick’s boots!
They were both hard workers and exciting innovators who at least made every
possible effort to put on some kind of a different show from night to night.
Either one of them could call a great match any time they wanted. So what if
Randy wanted to put in an even greater effort by designing a great match in
excessive detail? That is a quality, not a flaw, and Flair is too lost in time
to grasp it. Sure Flair could call a match, the exact same one over and over,
talking and telegraphing every move! I can also say that Ric was a blatant
expose every time he cut himself. “Hey look, Ric Flair’s blading! ...”
Some great pro! If old time shooters like Ed Strangler Lewis or Frank Gotch
were to look down from the heavens I’m sure they’d be more impressed with Randy
and Mick’s realism and psychology than Flair’s phony chops and upside-down
flips into the corner, where amazingly he somehow landed right on his feet! -
only to jog down to the next corner - where he climbed right up and - even
more amazingly - took ten or fifteen seconds to maneuver his opponent’s hands
carefully onto his chest so he could take a phony beal back into the ring!
If done on rare occasions, such silly routines, because they are highly
amusing and entertaining, often go undetected for how ridiculously phony they are.
But this pathetic routine was performed every time Flair went blank, and let
me tell you, he went blank all the time!
As for Ric’s criticism of how my comeback was repetitive, all I can
say is that I felt that, logically speaking, why wouldn’t I break into my
patented arsenal of best moves before going into my finish? I did, in fact, change
it up from time to time, but I also recognized that most fans completely
understood what I was doing. It made as much sense as doing the same finishing
move every night, except my finish was a series of moves. The fact that Ric
took exception to this is a simple example of his inability to fully understand ri
ng psychology.
The day after I wrestled Davey at Wembley at Summerslam ‘92 in front
of 86,000 fans I flew to Baltimore. They were playing a tape of the show in
the hotel bar and I was watching a tape in my room when there was a knock at my
door and low and behold both Randy and Flair stood there beaming. They each
shook my hand and I remember Flair excitedly grinning and praising me saying,
“Brother, that was the greatest match I’ve ever seen. The greatest!”
For Ric Flair to say that I wasn’t a draw is just plain ridiculous. I’m
very sure that I sold enough tickets throughout my career. Who is he kidding?
Everyone knows that most of the time WCW wrestlers worked in front of empty
chairs in empty arenas. All one has to do is watch Flair’s DVD to see the
empty seats and the exact same match with every opponent, whatever their shape or
size. After Vince made him redo his SNME match his days were numbered in
the WWF because he clearly wasn’t what he was cracked up to be. Six weeks
later Flair was told to lose the belt to me in Saskatoon on October 12, 1992. As
I understood it, Flair declined putting me over on TV, despite the fact
that he himself had just told me that Wembley was the best match he’d ever
seen ! Let alone that I was the biggest draw the WWF had in Europe and all the
foreign markets, consistently main eventing in front of, not sold out
buildings, but entirely sold out tours! And I had a very strong following in
North America too. The WWF was reeling from sex and steroid scandals at that
time and I was seen as a safe bet to carry the belt, in large part, because I
worked hard and I kept my nose clean. When I won the title in Saskatoon that
night I came back to the dressing room with a dislocated finger and a rolled
ankle, both as a result of Ric failing to tell me what he was doing in the
ring. (I generally never got hurt.)
I worked with Flair every night for a while after that and I finally
went to Vince totally exasperated and told him that I thought that Ric was
intentionally sabotaging my matches every night since I’d won the belt. To be
honest, Ric always worked hard but nothing he did in the ring ever made sense.
Just when he’d masterfully worked my leg he’d suddenly grab a headlock and
call a long series of running high spots! Just when we had the crowd ready to
burst he’d call some lame spot that would kill all the heat we’d built up and I
forever found myself shaking my head at how we’d have to build it up all over
again. Most of what Ric called made him look like a world beater and in some
matches I’d blast him with fifteen or twenty terrific looking working punches
only to see him never go down but then finally wobble and take one of his
pathetic and comedic face bumps. Sometimes he’d do his upside-down flip into
the corner two or three times in a row and in one match, only days after I won
the title, he called for a small package out of a figure four and pinned
himself without even giving me a comeback! When I finally went to Vince he scolded
me and told me that I was his champion and from here on in to take charge of
my matches - and that Flair wasn’t as good as he was cracked up to be! I was
trying to respect Ric at the time but since he was heading back to WCW I
had no choice but to take control. Ric apologized to me saying he was having
problems at home but today he’s telling some bullshit story about Charles
Barkley and the Ultimate Warrior.
A few months later, when I found out I’d be having a one hour marathon
match at the Boston Garden with Ric, I came up with a brilliant storyline
that I ran by Vince, who loved it. When I ran it by Flair in the dressing room
the night of the show he immediately interrupted me and began telling me what
we were going to do instead. I finally had to cut him off and sadly dress him
down in front of several wrestlers saying, “Ric, I’m the champion and this is
how it’s going to go.” He dropped his jaw, turned red, and took his seat,
saying, “You’re the champ.” He never, ever got over it either. Scott Hall was
there and often told this story to other wrestlers for years. Sadly, old Ric
still managed to mess up the timing for every fall, in what I could only see
as intentional. At the time I was furious to read in Dave Meltzer’s
Wrestling Observer Newsletter how Ric Flair carried me for the full sixty minutes!
Ric Flair never carried me, ever! Years later I spoke with Meltzer about
it and we cleared the air when after hearing my perspective on it he agreed
that he didn’t have all the facts and told me that he’d never seen the Boson
match, which was reported to him by a fan who was there. If anything, Flair was
not only notorious for sucking up to the office but generally took liberties
with his opponents who had been convinced that he was going to make them. If
you watch Flair’s matches you’ll see that he usually made himself at the
expense of his opponents , something I was famous for not doing.
Enough about this so called great worker. He was a three dressed up as
a nine who left his opponents second guessing their own abilities after
working with him.
For shame that Ric Flair should take pot shots at Terry Funk, Mick
Foley, Savage, me or anyone else. But none of this is what infuriates me the
most.
For Flair to denounce me for my role in the infamous Survivor Series
in Montreal, all I can say is that he wasn’t there and he ignores much of
the truth when it comes to the facts. The most complete and accurate written
account of the whole Montreal debacle, for anyone who is interested, is
available at brethart.com - written by Dave Meltzer. I stand proud with my head
held high for the way I handled myself and the position I took for the business
and my fellow wrestlers that fateful day. I find solace in remembering two
truly great champions, Harley Race and Dory Funk, who did call me up to tell
me they were proud of me for how I handled myself in Montreal. That’s all the
endorsement I’ll ever need! That’s all I need to say about it.
Far above and beyond anything else Flair said, it is his comment about
how I exploited my loving brother Owen’s death that is unforgivable.
Frankly, this is such a low class blow that it is even beneath him! If he wants to
take pot shots at me as a wrestler that’s bad enough, but it is reprehensible
that he would judge me for the way I handled myself in the aftermath of my
brother’s death. All I can say is that I stood by Owen’s widow through a
fierce and bitter time, never once failing her or their children. I did what I
think Owen would have wanted me to do and I answer to Owen’s memory not to
Ric Flair. For him to say that I fueled the law suit because of Montreal
is ridiculous and disgusting.
I think it’s fair to say one had to walk in my shoes to fully comprehend the
situation and when I put my story into words in a book about wrestling that
is worth reading only then can anyone appreciate all that I lost and all
that I gave during such a difficult time. For this asshole to blindly poke me
in the eye would be like me declaring that Flair showed great cowardice when
he let Bobby Shane die in that tragic plane crash back in ‘75 !
Foley , Savage and Bret Hart have been doing just fine outside of the
world of wrestling. What else has Ric Flair got? I’d like to punch Ric Flair
right in the nose - but I’d probably have to kick somebody in the ass to do
it! In the infamous words of Dick Cheney, go f**k yourself Ric and be glad
that someone like me doesn’t shove your head squarely up your ass someday.


I'm not saying it wasn't popular and that it didn't work....it's just counter-productive. I always felt, whats the point of the match? Just let him hit the three punches, big boot, leg drop and I can turn the channel already.
Turn the channel already. Hmm...that says so much about you I believe.

Let me guess. You started watching wrestling in the mid to late 90s. Right?
 
Granted, Flair was entertaining to watch - and there’s nothing wrong with that. In fact, Flair’s magnetism and charisma distracted from and offset his limited ability in the ring.

This excert from what you put in there from Bret Hart, you can probably replace Flair's name and put in Hogan. So it doesn't seem that bad with what I said earlier in saying that Hogan was not the best in the ring. As it says about Flair Magnetism and Charisma distracted from the limited Ability in the Ring.
 
This excert from what you put in there from Bret Hart, you can probably replace Flair's name and put in Hogan. So it doesn't seem that bad with what I said earlier in saying that Hogan was not the best in the ring. As it says about Flair Magnetism and Charisma distracted from the limited Ability in the Ring.
Except that Hogan wasn't limited in the ring, nor did he ever display poor in-ring psychology like Flair.

Could you please explain to me how Hogan was limited in the ring? What should he have done to show that he wasn't limited?
 
Let me guess. You started watching wrestling in the mid to late 90s. Right?

Mr. Slyfox I very much adore your man-crush on Hogan. However, jumping to conclusions gets you know where. The fact that you question how long I've been watching wrestling simply because I'm not infactuated with Mr Hogan "Hulking Up" quite the way that you are makes me smirk. Honestly, you defend Hogan about as well as anyone I have seen. That is most definately a compliment. I've been watching wrestling for roughly a little over two decades....I don't know why thats important to you, but apparently it is. I promise, if I could have been born earlier I would have watched it earlier just to make you happy. Hogan will always be the biggest draw in wrestling history. He will always be the most recognizable star the business ever produced. He will never however, be considered the best wrestler by the majority. You are not alone in your opinion, but you most surely aren't walking around with the Verizon network following you.
 
This debate's been interesting. I agree with Jazzua, Slyfox defends Hogan as well as anyone I've seen. So far, every question or comment put forward to Slyfox, Slyfox has answered. But I am a little confused and disappointed to see, from both sides of the argument, that lack of understanding that this, quite obviously, is an opinionated issue. Who is the best wrestler? Before you can answer this, someone has to define what a wrestler is. And when someone does this, another will say, 'No, a wrestler is not abc, a wrestler is xyz.' We are all entitled to our opinions. Some will say that Hogan's iconic (truly iconic) status entitles him as the greatest wrestler of all time, whether it be on a drawcard, in ring performance and workrate or out of ring attitude basis. Each has there opinion. Accept that person's opinion, disagree because of this and this and this, and move on. If there is obviously no way someone is going to change there mind, and full credit to them, then leave it. This is an issue that will be talked about for many more a time. In my opinion (i.e. I am notstating a fact, Hogan was great to watch because of his charisma and the aura that surrounded him, but in general, I watch wrestling because I like in-ring action. Hogan wasn't as bad as everyone says. When you are put on a pedestal as much as he is, you are very vulnerable to criticism. But he wasn't, in my opinion, the best. On a completely different level in some areas, and not on others. This hasn't been directed at anyone but I think that we need to realise that everyone is entitled to an opinion, and when stating opinions that aren't factual but are judgemental then there is no right or wrong.
 
You are right on....brother. In fact, almost every discussion on any wrestling board across the entire IWC is based nearly entirely on opinion. I would never try to pass my own thoughts on as an entitlement to the truth, because you can't. The only truth that can be agreed upon is that Hogan brought something special with him into the ring. That cannot and is not trying to be denied. You can't become what he became without have "it" as so many say. My goal is never to change anyone's position. I do however extremely enjoy this certain debate as so many feel so strongly on the issue.
 
Hogan is the greatest icon of all-time in wrestling. No doubt about that. He wasn't the best in the ring. When I was younger, I did love to see him hulk up, even when he was at the end of his NWO days and he hulk up a couple times. I got hyped. Hogan was never my favorite. I didn't like how he always had the WCW title, especially during NWO. As I got older, I found out it was politics kind of made me lose respect. The way he made Vince Russo look bad during his last outing at WCW. I wasn't really watching WCW then like I was from when it first started till 99.
Point is that Hogan's name alone just attracts. He makes yellow cool. But in my opinion, Sting is the greatest wrestler of all-time. Well, Bret Hart then Sting. Sting is my favorite because Sting always found something creative during his matches whether its doing a new move he has never done or body slamming The Giant without even stunning the big man. Sting coming out of the raptors and putting on classics with Flair. There gets no better than Sting and he should have been beating up Hogan just a little bit more. And Sting's gimmick is one of the top three greatest. Whenever you can hold the same gimmick throughout your whole career says a lot even if you have to evolved the gimmick like he did when he was in the raptors or Hogan did with the NWO. Great times that was.
 
Hogan is the greatest icon of all-time in wrestling. No doubt about that. He wasn't the best in the ring. When I was younger, I did love to see him hulk up, even when he was at the end of his NWO days and he hulk up a couple times. I got hyped. Hogan was never my favorite. I didn't like how he always had the WCW title, especially during NWO. As I got older, I found out it was politics kind of made me lose respect. The way he made Vince Russo look bad during his last outing at WCW. I wasn't really watching WCW then like I was from when it first started till 99.
Point is that Hogan's name alone just attracts. He makes yellow cool. But in my opinion, Sting is the greatest wrestler of all-time. Well, Bret Hart then Sting. Sting is my favorite because Sting always found something creative during his matches whether its doing a new move he has never done or body slamming The Giant without even stunning the big man. Sting coming out of the raptors and putting on classics with Flair. There gets no better than Sting and he should have been beating up Hogan just a little bit more. And Sting's gimmick is one of the top three greatest. Whenever you can hold the same gimmick throughout your whole career says a lot even if you have to evolved the gimmick like he did when he was in the raptors or Hogan did with the NWO. Great times that was.


The raptors? Do you mean "the rafters"?


I might actually find myself siding with slyfox for once (ouch), but I disagree that this is all based on opinion. If the quality of a wrestler is based solely on opinion, then anybody could be the best wrestler of all time. If that were the case, some teeny bopping middle schoolers from the late 90s might have said that The Godfather was the greatest wrestler of all time. Or some huge mark might dub the Bushwackers as the greatest tag team to ever enter the ring.

Do you see the problem here? This would be like saying that You Got Served is the greatest movie of all time, whereas Citizen Kane is merely midocre.....at best. There has to be some use of reason involved in the process. Let's look at some examples:

Good use of reason:

:flair:


I would contend that Ric Flair is the greatest wrestler of all time, largely for his success and longevity. He was winning championships over the span of 3 decades and could still put on a match even when he was well out of his prime. He stayed fairly mobile in his old-age, and sometimes, the only thing that revealed his age was in his old skin and flabby breasts. If you give the guy a mic, you aren't going to be disappointed. He was the flagship of the WCW for years, and arguably, he kept it afloat before Hogan got there. Flair is an icon and should not be underestimated.






Poor use of reason:

:taijiri:

OMG!!!!!!!!!!! Tajiri is the greatest cruiserweight in the history of wrestling! He was like Cruiserweight Champ and Torrie was his manager and she is mega hot and he did that green mist thing and it was sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo cool! You are all stupid if you don't agree with me!



I hope that helps in any future determining of greatest wrestlers.


Now, I'm going to stop agreeing with slyfox. Sly, you seem to enjoy a good debate and marking out for Hogan, which I have no problem with. But, I see that a lot of your arguing looks something like this:

------------------------------------------------------
:lmao:

I don't even think I need to address this.


:lmao:

Hogan is clearly first-rate at in-ring psychology. To think anything other than that is plain ignorance.

------------------------------------------------------

You just leave things unaddressed. Why is it plain ignorance? According to what standard? Why shouldn't you address ________?

You make some solid arguments, but I find a lot of the support for your arguments to share many of the characteristics of "marking out."
 
Hulk Hogan is the greatest professional wrestler ever. End of story.

So true. It's been said a million times over the years, Hulk Hogan MADE professional wrestling. I don't like that he never jobs, but who cares? There will never be another Hulk Hogan. One day down the line there will most likely come a new wrestler who has the mic skills to rival The Rock's. There will be another Y2J, another Rob Van Dam, another Kane(big monster guys come a dime a dozen), but there will never again be another wrestler who will have done for the buisness what the Hulkster has done.
 
Mr. Slyfox I very much adore your man-crush on Hogan. However, jumping to conclusions gets you know where. The fact that you question how long I've been watching wrestling simply because I'm not infactuated with Mr Hogan "Hulking Up" quite the way that you are makes me smirk. Honestly, you defend Hogan about as well as anyone I have seen. That is most definately a compliment. I've been watching wrestling for roughly a little over two decades....I don't know why thats important to you, but apparently it is. I promise, if I could have been born earlier I would have watched it earlier just to make you happy. Hogan will always be the biggest draw in wrestling history. He will always be the most recognizable star the business ever produced. He will never however, be considered the best wrestler by the majority. You are not alone in your opinion, but you most surely aren't walking around with the Verizon network following you.
Thank you for the compliment.

And, the reason I asked is because I have this hypothesis that many MANY of the people who think Hogan sucks are fans who started watching in the 90s. And, my hypothesis is that many fans hate Hogan because of his heel nWo character, and don't understand that their thinking is being influenced by the character they first started watching. If that makes sense.

That's why I asked.

This debate's been interesting. I agree with Jazzua, Slyfox defends Hogan as well as anyone I've seen. So far, every question or comment put forward to Slyfox, Slyfox has answered. But I am a little confused and disappointed to see, from both sides of the argument, that lack of understanding that this, quite obviously, is an opinionated issue. Who is the best wrestler? Before you can answer this, someone has to define what a wrestler is. And when someone does this, another will say, 'No, a wrestler is not abc, a wrestler is xyz.' We are all entitled to our opinions. Some will say that Hogan's iconic (truly iconic) status entitles him as the greatest wrestler of all time, whether it be on a drawcard, in ring performance and workrate or out of ring attitude basis. Each has there opinion. Accept that person's opinion, disagree because of this and this and this, and move on. If there is obviously no way someone is going to change there mind, and full credit to them, then leave it. This is an issue that will be talked about for many more a time. In my opinion (i.e. I am notstating a fact, Hogan was great to watch because of his charisma and the aura that surrounded him, but in general, I watch wrestling because I like in-ring action. Hogan wasn't as bad as everyone says. When you are put on a pedestal as much as he is, you are very vulnerable to criticism. But he wasn't, in my opinion, the best. On a completely different level in some areas, and not on others. This hasn't been directed at anyone but I think that we need to realise that everyone is entitled to an opinion, and when stating opinions that aren't factual but are judgemental then there is no right or wrong.

Thank you for the compliment. And, I just always assume people understand that there as an inherent element of opinion going on. And, with that in mind, it shouldn't need to be prefaced everytime. Just like when an NFL analyst discuss who's better between Brady and Manning, it's obviously an opinion. But, the use of facts is necessary to support that position.

I might actually find myself siding with slyfox for once (ouch),
Hey, trust me, the more you do it the better it feels. :D

Now, I'm going to stop agreeing with slyfox. Sly, you seem to enjoy a good debate and marking out for Hogan, which I have no problem with. But, I see that a lot of your arguing looks something like this:

------------------------------------------------------
:lmao:

I don't even think I need to address this.


:lmao:

Hogan is clearly first-rate at in-ring psychology. To think anything other than that is plain ignorance.

------------------------------------------------------

You just leave things unaddressed. Why is it plain ignorance? According to what standard? Why shouldn't you address ________?
Anything you wish me to address, feel free to say so, if you think I need to go more in-depth. I usually have to respond to several posts at one time and have limited time to do so, so sometimes I gloss over things.

Why would it be ignorance to say that Hogan didn't have first rate in-ring psychology? Well, I'll explain that now.

The definition of ring psychology is "The ability to connect with the crowd & draw them into your match & not only react, but make them believe that whats going is real. It's not about how many moves you do per minute & how athletic you are, it's about what you do & how well you do it & if the fans buy it." (stolen from another forum). And, I would add "within the context of the wrestler's character". That is probably the best definition I have ever read for what psychology is. Would there be any disagreement on that definition?

So, I think all can agree that Hogan could connect with a crowd, draw them in and make them react, right? And, I don't think anyone would argue that the crowd, even today, buys it. So, the question becomes, is Hogan's match realistic and fitting with his character?

One of the most common criticisms of Hogan's work is his "limited moveset". But, Hogan played the gimmick of a traditional superhero babyface with extraordinary strength. So, Hogan's character is of a 6'6" 303 pound superhero who is incredibly strong. Now, does it make sense for a guy who can body slam Andre the Giant to use technical moves, and thus negate his strength advantage? Of course not. It makes a lot more sense to use moves that take advantage of his superior strength and size, such as punches, bodyslams, headlocks, and a leg drop. Would it be realistic for Hogan to do enziguris and hurricarranas? No, as no man his size would ever try to use stuff like that in a real fight.

So basically, Hogan used moves that take advantage of his strength and size advantage which is incredibly realistic, a strength advantage that is inherent from a superhero style character. So, Hogan played his character to perfection and used moves which were realistic and made sense with regard to his character.

Add that to his ability to draw in crowds and make them react the way he wanted while he put on realistic matches, and there is why Hulk Hogan had great in-ring psychology.

As far as the "hulking up" thing goes. First, keep in mind, hulking up was not something he did his entire career, but rather that came about sometime in the late 80s. But, that too, was good psychology. First, it furthered the "superhero" babyface character, as Hogan drew power from the fans, and the revived him from near defeat. His power grew stronger and stronger (as he rose from both knees, to one knee, to shaking around the ring...) until finally he had recharged completely (when he blocked a punch, or pointed the finger) and was ready to make his last stand against Evil. Using his realistic moveset, he finally vanquished the foe, much to the great delight and ultimate satisfaction of all who attended. So, addressing the concept of ring psychology, he's drawing in fans who obviously are buying into what he's doing, making them react the way he wants, and doing so with realistic offense with regards to the superhero character.

How can you say Hogan's psychology in the ring was anything but great?

You make some solid arguments, but I find a lot of the support for your arguments to share many of the characteristics of "marking out."
This is a little off-topic, but do you understand what the term "mark" means?
 
I might actually find myself siding with slyfox for once (ouch), but I disagree that this is all based on opinion. If the quality of a wrestler is based solely on opinion, then anybody could be the best wrestler of all time. If that were the case, some teeny bopping middle schoolers from the late 90s might have said that The Godfather was the greatest wrestler of all time. Or some huge mark might dub the Bushwackers as the greatest tag team to ever enter the ring.

Do you see the problem here? This would be like saying that You Got Served is the greatest movie of all time, whereas Citizen Kane is merely midocre.....at best. There has to be some use of reason involved in the process. Let's look at some examples:

It's still all opinion. If somebody wants to say the Godfather is the greatest wrestler of all time, then he is to that person because that's his opinion. That's not to say it's a popular opinion, but it's all based on one's personal interest.

Obviously most people are going to prefer Citizen Kane over a movie like You Got Served. But that's not to say they are "right", they just agree with the popular opinion.

So, many people are going to praise Hulk Hogan as the best wrestler ever. Others will choose Bret Hart, Kurt Angle, RVD, Curt Hennig, or even Bushwhacker Luke if to them that person is the best in their eyes. Nobody is right but just some opinions are more popular than others.
 
Anything you wish me to address, feel free to say so, if you think I need to go more in-depth. I usually have to respond to several posts at one time and have limited time to do so, so sometimes I gloss over things.

Why would it be ignorance to say that Hogan didn't have first rate in-ring psychology? Well, I'll explain that now.

The definition of ring psychology is "The ability to connect with the crowd & draw them into your match & not only react, but make them believe that whats going is real. It's not about how many moves you do per minute & how athletic you are, it's about what you do & how well you do it & if the fans buy it." (stolen from another forum). And, I would add "within the context of the wrestler's character". That is probably the best definition I have ever read for what psychology is. Would there be any disagreement on that definition?

So, I think all can agree that Hogan could connect with a crowd, draw them in and make them react, right? And, I don't think anyone would argue that the crowd, even today, buys it. So, the question becomes, is Hogan's match realistic and fitting with his character?

One of the most common criticisms of Hogan's work is his "limited moveset". But, Hogan played the gimmick of a traditional superhero babyface with extraordinary strength. So, Hogan's character is of a 6'6" 303 pound superhero who is incredibly strong. Now, does it make sense for a guy who can body slam Andre the Giant to use technical moves, and thus negate his strength advantage? Of course not. It makes a lot more sense to use moves that take advantage of his superior strength and size, such as punches, bodyslams, headlocks, and a leg drop. Would it be realistic for Hogan to do enziguris and hurricarranas? No, as no man his size would ever try to use stuff like that in a real fight.

So basically, Hogan used moves that take advantage of his strength and size advantage which is incredibly realistic, a strength advantage that is inherent from a superhero style character. So, Hogan played his character to perfection and used moves which were realistic and made sense with regard to his character.

Add that to his ability to draw in crowds and make them react the way he wanted while he put on realistic matches, and there is why Hulk Hogan had great in-ring psychology.

As far as the "hulking up" thing goes. First, keep in mind, hulking up was not something he did his entire career, but rather that came about sometime in the late 80s. But, that too, was good psychology. First, it furthered the "superhero" babyface character, as Hogan drew power from the fans, and the revived him from near defeat. His power grew stronger and stronger (as he rose from both knees, to one knee, to shaking around the ring...) until finally he had recharged completely (when he blocked a punch, or pointed the finger) and was ready to make his last stand against Evil. Using his realistic moveset, he finally vanquished the foe, much to the great delight and ultimate satisfaction of all who attended. So, addressing the concept of ring psychology, he's drawing in fans who obviously are buying into what he's doing, making them react the way he wants, and doing so with realistic offense with regards to the superhero character.

How can you say Hogan's psychology in the ring was anything but great?

This is a little off-topic, but do you understand what the term "mark" means?

Good work, Sly. I am very satisfied with your explanations.


I do understand what the term "mark" means. For the sake of convenience, Wikipedia defines it as: "A fan who idolizes a particular wrestler, promotion, or style of wrestling to a point some might consider excessive."
 

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