Hulk Hogan, Brother

[mtg712]

i know ill catch some flak for this but i have to say it. hulk hogan is not as bad as you think. i admit hogans american match's suck. but if you guys have ever seen his match's in japan you would think hey hes not that bad. he had a decent match against the Great Muta that featured him doing quite a few moves that he would not do in america. it was a great back and forth match in which he won. ive seen a view of his japanese match's and they are head and shoulders above the american match's. i dont remember who said it but it was someone of high standing in wrestling who said the following: "its a shame some many people think hogans a bad wrestler because they dont know what they are talking about. when he was over in japan he actually got to use his technical ability because thats what they wanted to see over in japan. but when he would come back to america he would run through the hulk up 3-4 punch's a irish whip big boot and then the leg drop or he would use the scoop slam instead of the big boot. americans didnt want to see the technical aspect they want to see him pick up someone who weighed 300-500 pounds and slam them. they wanted to see the big moves." hogan wrestles whats called the american style which involves big slams a hard hitting moves and little to no technical skill. in mexico and other latin countries they use a high flying fast paced style. in japan they use a technical style along with some high flying and stiff kicks.

 

[Shadowmancer]

I would like to Direct you to a topic in the WWE section where there is a large amount of debate on the issue of Hulk Hogan. But as to what you are saying I agree that Hogan's american matches suck, but in light of when he was wrestling in America during the 80's the expectations of a match aren't as high as what it is now. Most people rag on Hogan for the reason of what he thinks he brings to the Industry, not for much else other then the fact that his matches now suck. I personally will take a match at face value no matter who is involved (exception being Khali).

 

[mtg712]

its like people hate the fact that some wrestlers got buried under his charisma. wwf/e came up with the ultimate warrior so they would have someone that people would view as an equal so there wouldnt be one person on top.

 

[Slyfox696]

Hulk Hogan is the greatest professional wrestler ever. End of story.

His charisma was off the charts, his workrate cannot be touched, and his wrestling psychology is that what most people can only dream of. A lot of smarks tend to think that sense he doesn't do a bunch of flippy moves he must suck, but I would argue that anyone who believes that really does not understand what professional wrestling is all about.

Let's put it this way. If Hulk Hogan was not great, then how come he is the biggest draw of all time, across three continents and numerous companies?

The fact is this, Hulk Hogan is the greatest professional wrestler of all time, bar none.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I have to agree with Sly....maybe not the most talented in ring, or exciting matches as far as the move preformed were concerned, but goodness what charisma, and psychology...who else can you name that can come out and have a match be completely comprised of slams, punches, clotheslines, and headlocks, and still have the most exciting match of the night, still ellicit the biggest reaction of the night. You cant draw like that, for that long, and transcend a sport, and be shit. you have to be great. The greatest.

 

[Shadowmancer]

It is about time I revisited this topic. Hogan as a wrestler was nothing special in ring work. Im sure you will agree there Sly as an in ring Technician he is nothing special; however as a draw and media magnet there is no doubt that he was great. He is also part of the reason why the state of the industry is what it is right now. His Hulking Orange Frame, Im right in the use of the word orange if you look at pictures of him from the 80's, brought in Buys and drew in those Millions and millions of Hulkamaniacs. This contributed to the psyche of Pro Wrestling in that the big cut guy draws, while previous to that it had been guys like Bob Backlund and Bruno Sammartino both of whom were while sizably biggish were not walking billboards for "Vitamins". Hogan is where the current problem of Steroid use in wrestling at a large level comes from (Superstar Billy Graham and Jesse Ventura also helped in this department).

I also think that there is a lot of criticism directed at Hogan for his backstage politics, which could be applied to a lot of current wrestlers, as well as the Wrestling Business as a whole. I want to watch more of Hogan's japanes matches as they show what he could do, whereas it is the same criticism leveled at John Cena being that of a restricted Wrestler, Meaning that a more elaborate story cannot be told in the match. His storytelling is good if not great but on the base level it is simplistic with no real layers to the story. Simple Good Vs. Evil story with little on top, but told well, however a layer on top of that for another reason for why they are going after each other would have been better.

I also see all this talk of Hulk Hogan being great, you are forgetting the biggest thing that Hogan needed to become what he became, while he was big he could be called Triple H big or something similar to use a modern comparison. This is Pre-Wrestlemania WWF, AWA and Japan. Hogan became big because of possibly the most important person in Hogan's career apart from Hogan himself. "Rowdy" Roddy Piper. You cannot have the biggest Face in the world without the Heel to which he can be pitted against, and Piper is what allowed Hogan to transcend Wrestling into popular culture as what he is.

I know this is not covering his WCW/nWo days as that can be explained better by someone else but I feel that this is a fairly detailed approach to what I think are some of the key aspects of how Hogan became who he became. Trying to be as objective as I could possibly be without being overtly negative nor overtly positive.

Personnally I would love to see a relatively Unbiased Documentary on Hogan with Hogan and other wrestlers of the era as well as Vince and Verne Gagne all talking about the Hulk Hogan story as it would be an interesting story if it was a complete shoot style doco.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

I disagree with Hogan being the greatest professional wrestler of all-time. Sure, he helped to build the WWF, but largely, as the WWF grew, so did his wallet. He was in it for himself, and that is evident in his non-kayfabe activity in the WCW. There was a point where Hogan being over the top was good for the industry. However, there came a point where this was no longer the case, and his selfishness doomed WCW.

What about Mick Foley? I can make a case for him being the greatest wrestler of the Federation era, citing his long-term influence on the style of wrestling and popularity of his opponents.

A) Foley made Hell in a Cell a phenomenon. I know that the majority of you probably think that HIAC 1 w/ Taker and Michaels was the best of the HIAC matches and solidified it as a main draw. However, to the common fan, what he or she saw at KOTR 98 was unlike anything he or she had ever seen. Most wrestling fans haven't seen Japanese Death Matches and Barbed Wire matches, so this is the most extreme and death-defying feat that most of them had ever seen.

B) His willingness to take bumps and do crazy stuff largely influenced the WWF Hardcore division, bringing hardcore matches and violence to a previously unvisited level in American wrestling.

C) Foley put guys over. Period. He helped to put over two of the greatest icons the sport has ever seen...The Rock and Triple H. Let's face it, would the Austin/McMahon feud have been the same if The Rock hadn't sustained a fierce rivalry with Mick Foley through the winter of 98/99? No. Would Triple H have been the ultra-heel that he was if Foley wouldn't have put him over countless times in the Winter of 99/2000? Negative.

Foley isn't glamorous or even an icon, really. But the man did/is doing more for the business in a virtuous manner than Hulk Hogan ever did.

 

[Slyfox696]

I have to agree with Sly....maybe not the most talented in ring, or exciting matches as far as the move preformed were concerned, but goodness what charisma, and psychology

Moves don't make for good matches. If they did, wrestling training videos would be flying off of shelves at Wal-mart.

...who else can you name that can come out and have a match be completely comprised of slams, punches, clotheslines, and headlocks, and still have the most exciting match of the night, still ellicit the biggest reaction of the night. You cant draw like that, for that long, and transcend a sport, and be shit. you have to be great. The greatest.

Whats wrong with those things? Are those not realistic moves? Is that not good professional wrestling? I mean, I don't understand why people think a hurricarrana is some how a better wrestling move than a straight fist to the mouth.

It is about time I revisited this topic. Hogan as a wrestler was nothing special in ring work. Im sure you will agree there Sly as an in ring Technician he is nothing special;

Why would I agree with something that is untrue?

What, in your eyes, makes him less that great regarding in-ring work? Because he didn't do a bunch of fancy flippers and try to fit 97 moves in 30 seconds?

Hogan understood the ART and science of wrestling. He understood how to work a crowd (the REAL meaning of work; drawing fans into the intended realism). He had a sixth sense on psychology. His charisma was unmatched. He rarely, if EVER, botched a move. Nobody ever watches a Hulk Hogan match and thinks "wow, that looked fake, even for professional wrestling".

Hulk Hogan was fantastic in the ring.

however as a draw and media magnet there is no doubt that he was great. He is also part of the reason why the state of the industry is what it is right now. His Hulking Orange Frame, Im right in the use of the word orange if you look at pictures of him from the 80's, brought in Buys and drew in those Millions and millions of Hulkamaniacs. This contributed to the psyche of Pro Wrestling in that the big cut guy draws, while previous to that it had been guys like Bob Backlund and Bruno Sammartino both of whom were while sizably biggish were not walking billboards for "Vitamins". Hogan is where the current problem of Steroid use in wrestling at a large level comes from (Superstar Billy Graham and Jesse Ventura also helped in this department).

Big guys, heavyweights, have ALWAYS been the draw. Muhammed Ali, Joe Frazier, Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis...all big time moneymakers. Why do more people watch the NFL than college football?

People want to see the biggest and the best guys go at it. I mean, Andre the Giant was the biggest draw in the history of sport until Hogan came along. Why don't we blame him?

And, Hogan was never really that cut up. Sure, he was lean with huge arms, and sucking down steroids, but he was never on the level of a Rick Rude or Lex Luger. He still had a power lifter style body.

I also think that there is a lot of criticism directed at Hogan for his backstage politics, which could be applied to a lot of current wrestlers, as well as the Wrestling Business as a whole. I want to watch more of Hogan's japanes matches as they show what he could do, whereas it is the same criticism leveled at John Cena being that of a restricted Wrestler, Meaning that a more elaborate story cannot be told in the match. His storytelling is good if not great but on the base level it is simplistic with no real layers to the story. Simple Good Vs. Evil story with little on top, but told well, however a layer on top of that for another reason for why they are going after each other would have been better.

That makes no sense. No offense, but the whole purpose of professional wrestling has ALWAYS been Good vs. Evil. It's only been in the last decade where face vs. face matches have become rather common, and it becomes a matter of "respect", or whatever.

Sorry, but that's a silly criticism of Hogan, as you won't be able to find another main-event scene anywhere back in the time where it was any different.

I also see all this talk of Hulk Hogan being great, you are forgetting the biggest thing that Hogan needed to become what he became, while he was big he could be called Triple H big or something similar to use a modern comparison. This is Pre-Wrestlemania WWF, AWA and Japan. Hogan became big because of possibly the most important person in Hogan's career apart from Hogan himself. "Rowdy" Roddy Piper. You cannot have the biggest Face in the world without the Heel to which he can be pitted against, and Piper is what allowed Hogan to transcend Wrestling into popular culture as what he is.

While credit certainly has to be given to Piper, I think it's ludicrous to say that Hogan would not have been the mega star he was. There is NOTHING about his career up to that point which would suggest otherwise.

I know this is not covering his WCW/nWo days as that can be explained better by someone else but I feel that this is a fairly detailed approach to what I think are some of the key aspects of how Hogan became who he became. Trying to be as objective as I could possibly be without being overtly negative nor overtly positive.

Personnally I would love to see a relatively Unbiased Documentary on Hogan with Hogan and other wrestlers of the era as well as Vince and Verne Gagne all talking about the Hulk Hogan story as it would be an interesting story if it was a complete shoot style doco.

I completely respect your opinion, and I don't mean anything personal in my reply.

But, to say that Hogan was anything but the greatest professional wrestler, and one hell of a worker in the ring is ridiculous and unsubstantiated. There is a lot more proof that Hogan was great in the ring than there is proof against it, and there's no arguing that.

 

[Slyfox696]

I disagree with Hogan being the greatest professional wrestler of all-time. Sure, he helped to build the WWF, but largely, as the WWF grew, so did his wallet. He was in it for himself, and that is evident in his non-kayfabe activity in the WCW. There was a point where Hogan being over the top was good for the industry. However, there came a point where this was no longer the case, and his selfishness doomed WCW.

Your right. I'm sure 95% of the wrestlers are in the business to not make the most money possible.

All wrestlers are in it for themselves. That's the nature of the business.

What about Mick Foley? I can make a case for him being the greatest wrestler of the Federation era, citing his long-term influence on the style of wrestling and popularity of his opponents.

A) Foley made Hell in a Cell a phenomenon. I know that the majority of you probably think that HIAC 1 w/ Taker and Michaels was the best of the HIAC matches and solidified it as a main draw. However, to the common fan, what he or she saw at KOTR 98 was unlike anything he or she had ever seen. Most wrestling fans haven't seen Japanese Death Matches and Barbed Wire matches, so this is the most extreme and death-defying feat that most of them had ever seen.

B) His willingness to take bumps and do crazy stuff largely influenced the WWF Hardcore division, bringing hardcore matches and violence to a previously unvisited level in American wrestling.

C) Foley put guys over. Period. He helped to put over two of the greatest icons the sport has ever seen...The Rock and Triple H. Let's face it, would the Austin/McMahon feud have been the same if The Rock hadn't sustained a fierce rivalry with Mick Foley through the winter of 98/99? No. Would Triple H have been the ultra-heel that he was if Foley wouldn't have put him over countless times in the Winter of 99/2000? Negative.

Foley isn't glamorous or even an icon, really. But the man did/is doing more for the business in a virtuous manner than Hulk Hogan ever did.

He wasn't even in the Top 5 during the time period he wrestled. Hogan, Savage, Flair, Austin, and Rock all are head and shoulders above Foley.

 

[bige69er]

if hogan didnt have the talent to draw power, he would have sucked. he didnt have any wrestling skills and no talent. the great Lou Thesz said," i had a 102 year old grandma who could do a legdrop better."

 

[Shadowmancer]

Why would I agree with something that is untrue?

What, in your eyes, makes him less that great regarding in-ring work? Because he didn't do a bunch of fancy flippers and try to fit 97 moves in 30 seconds?

Hogan understood the ART and science of wrestling. He understood how to work a crowd (the REAL meaning of work; drawing fans into the intended realism). He had a sixth sense on psychology. His charisma was unmatched. He rarely, if EVER, botched a move. Nobody ever watches a Hulk Hogan match and thinks "wow, that looked fake, even for professional wrestling".

Hulk Hogan was fantastic in the ring.

My specific word was technician. There is a difference in saying that they can't wrestle and that they are a great Technician in the ring. Bruno is a good example here he isn't the best technician but I enjoy his matches. Hogan was at the very basic a simplistic wrestler, where he had other moves that could add to the story like the flying double-handed Axe-Handle that he used in Japan as his finisher. I have not seen Hogan ever use it in the US from the way he did it in Japan. Also I would call a technician someone like Bob Backlund and The Iron Sheik. It isn't a real slight against Hogan saying that he wasn't the greatest Technician if you look at the two that I named as Technicians.

Big guys, heavyweights, have ALWAYS been the draw. Muhammed Ali, Joe Frazier, Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis...all big time moneymakers. Why do more people watch the NFL than college football?

Im not disputing that but I am saying the way in which Hogan was a break from the previous way that Heavyweights in Wrestling looked with an exception in Superstar Billy Graham who predates Hogan.

People want to see the biggest and the best guys go at it. I mean, Andre the Giant was the biggest draw in the history of sport until Hogan came along. Why don't we blame him?

Im not saying anything about BIg not being what people want but

And, Hogan was never really that cut up. Sure, he was lean with huge arms, and sucking down steroids, but he was never on the level of a Rick Rude or Lex Luger. He still had a power lifter style body.

That makes no sense. No offense, but the whole purpose of professional wrestling has ALWAYS been Good vs. Evil. It's only been in the last decade where face vs. face matches have become rather common, and it becomes a matter of "respect", or whatever.

What I am trying to get at is that the story was the guy effectively goes Im Evil and want to fight Hulk Hogan Insert Reason Here, With the occasional thing different, Im meaning there is other elements that come into interesting stories but that is the Bookers fault not Hogan I was just pointing it out as it being so simplistic.

While credit certainly has to be given to Piper, I think it's ludicrous to say that Hogan would not have been the mega star he was. There is NOTHING about his career up to that point which would suggest otherwise.

No Im not saying that Hogan wasn't going to be Big or was big, Im Saying that Piper propelled Hogan further than he was going to get without Piper. Mega star does not encompass what Hogan is. He is part off Popular culture itself which is what I would call being bigger than a Mega star. Piper is a major component in getting Hogan to this level.

But, to say that Hogan was anything but the greatest professional wrestler, and one hell of a worker in the ring is ridiculous and unsubstantiated. There is a lot more proof that Hogan was great in the ring than there is proof against it, and there's no arguing that.

Hogan was Great at what he did but I stand by what I said in saying that he was not the greatest technician in the ring he was the Biggest star that has ever been produced in Wrestling History.

 

[Slyfox696]

My specific word was technician. There is a difference in saying that they can't wrestle and that they are a great Technician in the ring. Bruno is a good example here he isn't the best technician but I enjoy his matches. Hogan was at the very basic a simplistic wrestler, where he had other moves that could add to the story like the flying double-handed Axe-Handle that he used in Japan as his finisher. I have not seen Hogan ever use it in the US from the way he did it in Japan. Also I would call a technician someone like Bob Backlund and The Iron Sheik. It isn't a real slight against Hogan saying that he wasn't the greatest Technician if you look at the two that I named as Technicians.

Before I respond to this, why don't your define for me what you consider a "technician".

What I am trying to get at is that the story was the guy effectively goes Im Evil and want to fight Hulk Hogan Insert Reason Here, With the occasional thing different, Im meaning there is other elements that come into interesting stories but that is the Bookers fault not Hogan I was just pointing it out as it being so simplistic.

I don't understand the problem with that. Why over-complicate things when that's not what the fans wanted?

The fans wanted bad guy number 4, they wanted to believe Hogan was finally not going to be able to overcome, and they wanted Hogan to pull it out in the end. And they'd go crazy when Good triumphed over Evil.

I don't understand why you're criticizing Hogan or the bookers for giving the fans exactly what they wanted. That's called working the crowd with good psychology.

No Im not saying that Hogan wasn't going to be Big or was big, Im Saying that Piper propelled Hogan further than he was going to get without Piper. Mega star does not encompass what Hogan is. He is part off Popular culture itself which is what I would call being bigger than a Mega star. Piper is a major component in getting Hogan to this level.

I disagree. Piper played a part no doubt, but if it hadn't been him, it'd be someone else.

Hogan was going to achieve the same level of greatness no matter who his opponent was. The guy was just that charismatic, and just that damn good, in and out of the ring.

Hogan was Great at what he did but I stand by what I said in saying that he was not the greatest technician in the ring he was the Biggest star that has ever been produced in Wrestling History.

Well, my response to this will depend on what you consider to be a technician.

 

[Shadowmancer]

Before I respond to this, why don't you define for me what you consider a "technician".

A technician for me is someone that works well in the ring in terms of workrate and length of time they can hold matches and the fans interest. As well as those that work a more Structured match in terms of Limb work(The head doesn't really count as a limb if the working of it is punches/big boots) Examples would be Bob Backlund, Iron Shiek and Cowboy Bob Orton from the Hogan era, more modern examples would be Randy Orton and Davey Boy Smith. They are usually very crisp in the ring with appropriate amounts of selling.

Hogan to my Eyes falls down on two of those cases the appropriate amount of selling (Hulking Up) and the fact that the majority of his Limb work is Big Boot to the face and Punches to the head. Whereas to use Randy Orton as an Example here he is doing good Limb work with the head even though he is criticised for it in his Headlocks.

I don't understand the problem with that. Why over-complicate things when that's not what the fans wanted?

The fans wanted bad guy number 4, they wanted to believe Hogan was finally not going to be able to overcome, and they wanted Hogan to pull it out in the end. And they'd go crazy when Good triumphed over Evil.

I don't understand why you're criticizing Hogan or the bookers for giving the fans exactly what they wanted. That's called working the crowd with good psychology.

It is more my problem with the treating of the Audience like Idiots which is probably more my problem with bookers not treating the Audience with more in-depth stories. Which there could have been but weren't. I was also just doing an overview of the Hogan early years and that was something that I noticed.

I disagree. Piper played a part no doubt, but if it hadn't been him, it'd be someone else.

Hogan was going to achieve the same level of greatness no matter who his opponent was. The guy was just that charismatic, and just that damn good, in and out of the ring.

I guess we will agree to disagree on this, as I feel that Piper was the Mega-Heel needed to get Hogan to the platform that he is now held. Im not saying he wouldn't have been big without him but when you have a guy that had incited riots because of the hate he created for him from the crowds, you have the level raised in support for Hogan exponentially, Hogan had the Charisma to maintain it after the fact but The Support was helped by the hatred the fans had for Piper, To have a great face you need a great Heel. Hogan needed Piper as a counterpart like John Cena needed Edge, John Cena needed Edge as a counterpart to him for Cena to seem Human rather than the Emotionless Superman he was portrayed as before. But you keep on the Good Vs. Evil thing being what the fans wanted, for that to happen you need the Evil. Name someone that could pull the same Heat asPiper that could have filled Pipers shoes in the build up to Wrestlemania?

 

[Slyfox696]

A technician for me is someone that works well in the ring in terms of workrate and length of time they can hold matches and the fans interest.

Then, Hulk Hogan should be considered the greatest wrestler in the world by those standards.

His workrate was second to none, and can you tell me of a PPV Hulk Hogan match where fans WEREN'T into it? Ever?

As well as those that work a more Structured match in terms of Limb work(The head doesn't really count as a limb if the working of it is punches/big boots) Examples would be Bob Backlund, Iron Shiek and Cowboy Bob Orton from the Hogan era, more modern examples would be Randy Orton and Davey Boy Smith. They are usually very crisp in the ring with appropriate amounts of selling.

Hogan to my Eyes falls down on two of those cases the appropriate amount of selling (Hulking Up) and the fact that the majority of his Limb work is Big Boot to the face and Punches to the head. Whereas to use Randy Orton as an Example here he is doing good Limb work with the head even though he is criticised for it in his Headlocks.

I don't understand. Randy Orton using chinlocks is good limb psychology, but punching and kicking people in the face to set up a leg drop across the face is not?

Is it possible we're letting our prejudices against Hogan cloud our thinking? It's the same exact thing.

I mean, does a chinlock some how hurt more, or knock a person out more than a punch and kick to the face that I'm not aware of? You also have to remember that finishers were not regarded in the same manner they are today. Today, finishers pretty much overshadow an entire match, rather than be an extension of the match. Hogan's finisher was just a signature, an icing on the cake if you will.

It is more my problem with the treating of the Audience like Idiots which is probably more my problem with bookers not treating the Audience with more in-depth stories. Which there could have been but weren't. I was also just doing an overview of the Hogan early years and that was something that I noticed.

Treating them like idiots? How do you figure?

Because, it's only been in the last 5 years that wrestling fans have become "smart" to the business? Please? People knew wrestling was fake for decades before Randy Orton was even born. But, the GOOD wrestlers always made you just a little unsure. And, that's what guys like Brody, Hansen, and Hogan could do. You knew it was fake, but the way they portrayed the match, you always thought that there was a little something extra.

And what was wrong with "Hulking Up". It was great psychology, and it showed Hogan's mastery of the crowd.


I swear, some fans these days, look too in-depth into wrestling and forget what it is all about. No offense Shadowmancer, but when you argue that the biggest draw in history was an average worker, than you really have no credit. Because, wrestling fans weren't idiots thirty years ago. They understood who was talented and who was not. And they wouldn't keep forking their money over to someone who did not entertain them in the ring.

And yet, for decades, both with him as face and heel, fans continued to give their money to Hogan, a true sign of his greatness. For all of Steve Austin's incredible run in the late 90s, he fizzled out inside of five years. Hogan did it for 20.

 

[THe WHoLe FuCKiN SHoW]

this is a fascinating debate so far and i must say both sides are putting up great arguements. here's my take:

imo, hogan is the biggest draw in wrestling history. in that there is no doubt. it seems as though many of the wz users that flame hogan today are either too young to know what hogan did in his prime, or simply think of the hogan that we've seen in recent years when he was well past his prime and could barely move in the ring. its important to look back and feel the impact hogan had on everyone that was watching. plain and simple, everyone wanted to see hogan. whether you liked him or not, you were gunna watch his match cuz it was the best one on the card. much like today, even though everyone seems to hate him, the arena still shakes when his theme plays through out the arena and he comes out playin that imaginary guitar during one of his short comebacks. there is an unmatched excitement in the air when hulk hogan is involved. a certain electricity that very few are able to maintain.

some people like technically sound wrestlers (they are my personal preference) and some people like guys who can come out and have the audience in the palm of there hand and maybe they cant do a moonsault but they can tell a hell of a story. now as far as what the difference is between a punch and a hurricanrana, well thats quite simple. a hurricanrana takes more skill and talent. anyone can throw a punch. the question really is, can that guy whose executing that hurricanrana get as big a pop with that move as hulk hogan gets with a simple leg drop? not a chance. your preference will dictate whether or not you like the wrestler. unfortunatly for fans who hate guys that lack inring ability, the truth is charisma and style sell more tickets then perfectly executed suplexes and a pure elbow drop like savage or a pure moonsault like kurt angles. thats just the way it is.

as far as booking goes, i just tend to think that you dont fix what aint broken. good vs evil was selling tickets and t-shirts. its what everyone can most easily associate to their everyday lives. some people wanna be the good guy and some people just always hope for the bad guy to win. its what draws you in. but i hav to disagree that there were never face vs face matches back then. i can recall one particular face vs face event that i regard as one of the best matches ever. hogan/warrior. WM 6. ive never been a huge fan of either one of these guys and they certainly arent the most technically sound wrestlers ever, but if you werent glued to the television watching that match then your simply not a wrestling fan.

regarding the piper issue: Piper absolutely played a huge part in hogan becoming the sports entertainment giant that he is today. it is true that everyone needs the one true heel to propel them to the top. no one has ever done it alone. and im not talkin about the guy whose playing the heel for that particular angle, im talking about THE HEEL. what vince was for stone cold. you cannot simply say that if not piper it would have been someone else. just like there was no one like hogan, there was no one like piper either. the war to settle the score and everything leading up to it significantly helped hulkumania gain popularity. with every heel hogan beat and every face piper humiliated on pipers pit, the fued only grew larger and larger until they finally met in the ring. u take that away from hogan and he's missin something. he still becomes a legend, be he'd be missing something from my point of view. if you look at all the heels hogan fueded with, they all could have become that guy but they didnt. piper did. he was the luthor to hogans superman. imo, that one fued is what cena is missing at this point in his career right now. he certianly could have gotten that with edge, but i just dont think they let that fued grow enough. orton could end up being that guy for cena, but at this point i just dont find orton believable. you need someone the fans can hate so much that they cheer for cena. if the heel is being cheered its useless. buts for another thread.

whether you love him or you hate him, hogans the greatest ever. if you really take a second to appreciate what hogans acomplished it might change your opinion of him. i mean the point that he sucked in the ring is valid. yes he wasnt a great wrestler so to speak. but he was so good at every other aspect of the profession that he didnt have to be. he is now the greatest wrestler ever and he wasnt even a good wrestler. you have to really appreciate how amazing he was at everything else to not need flashy moves and to beat guys with a leg drop that anyone could do but still have you cheering your ass off for him and buying all his merchandise. the guy was brilliant. even if you hate him, you have to respect him.

 

[Slyfox696]

some people like technically sound wrestlers (they are my personal preference) and some people like guys who can come out and have the audience in the palm of there hand and maybe they cant do a moonsault but they can tell a hell of a story. now as far as what the difference is between a punch and a hurricanrana, well thats quite simple. a hurricanrana takes more skill and talent. anyone can throw a punch.

Yes, but which is more realistic, which is the goal of any good professional wrestler. Which is more likely to make a wrestling fan suspend disbelief? A guy who jumps up on another guys shoulders and then flips both of them, or a guy 6'5" 280 pounds with 24 inch pythons punching someone straight in the mouth.

I go with number 2.

I mean, your example is like a game of billiards. You have to hit the three ball in. So, you angle your shot, spend a couple minutes, jump the cue ball backwards over the 5 ball, bounce the cue ball off three sides of rail, split two more, and then hit the three ball into the pocket. That's the hurricarana.

Now, I take the cue ball, hit a straight shot on the three and it goes straight into the pocket. That's the punch in the mouth.

Sure, the first one takes more skill, but the second is more effective and realistic. Get my point?



And, not anyone can throw a good punch. See RVD for proof.

the question really is, can that guy whose executing that hurricanrana get as big a pop with that move as hulk hogan gets with a simple leg drop? not a chance. your preference will dictate whether or not you like the wrestler. unfortunatly for fans who hate guys that lack inring ability, the truth is charisma and style sell more tickets then perfectly executed suplexes and a pure elbow drop like savage or a pure moonsault like kurt angles. thats just the way it is.

I think what's amazing here is that people will call Hogan a bad in-ring worker, and then praise Kurt Angle.

i can recall one particular face vs face event that i regard as one of the best matches ever. hogan/warrior. WM 6. ive never been a huge fan of either one of these guys and they certainly arent the most technically sound wrestlers ever, but if you werent glued to the television watching that match then your simply not a wrestling fan.

Yes, and that was Hulk Hogan setting the trend. Hogan was the one who began that revolution in the main-stream.

Do you think Dustin Rhodes vs. Terry Taylor, face vs. face would have had near the same impact?

The face vs. face worked because it was two guys who displayed great psychology and who could work a crowd phenomenally.

whether you love him or you hate him, hogans the greatest ever.

And, that shouldn't even be debateable.

i mean the point that he sucked in the ring is valid. yes he wasnt a great wrestler so to speak.

No, it's not valid.

Hogan was an incredible wrestler. When are people going to understand that moves don't make a good wrestler?



I know you defended Hogan for most of your post, but those were the things that really caught my eye to be debated.

And, I didn't mean that RVD thing to be a flame-bait, just presenting a wrestler who is generally understood to be a poor puncher. Nothing personal (just noticed your screenname and my comment. )

 

[Shadowmancer]

Then, Hulk Hogan should be considered the greatest wrestler in the world by those standards.

His workrate was second to none, and can you tell me of a PPV Hulk Hogan match where fans WEREN'T into it? Ever?


I don't understand. Randy Orton using chinlocks is good limb psychology, but punching and kicking people in the face to set up a leg drop across the face is not?

Is it possible we're letting our prejudices against Hogan cloud our thinking? It's the same exact thing.

I mean, does a chinlock some how hurt more, or knock a person out more than a punch and kick to the face that I'm not aware of? You also have to remember that finishers were not regarded in the same manner they are today. Today, finishers pretty much overshadow an entire match, rather than be an extension of the match. Hogan's finisher was just a signature, an icing on the cake if you will.

Treating them like idiots? How do you figure?

Because, it's only been in the last 5 years that wrestling fans have become "smart" to the business? Please? People knew wrestling was fake for decades before Randy Orton was even born. But, the GOOD wrestlers always made you just a little unsure. And, that's what guys like Brody, Hansen, and Hogan could do. You knew it was fake, but the way they portrayed the match, you always thought that there was a little something extra.

And what was wrong with "Hulking Up". It was great psychology, and it showed Hogan's mastery of the crowd.


I swear, some fans these days, look too in-depth into wrestling and forget what it is all about. No offense Shadowmancer, but when you argue that the biggest draw in history was an average worker, than you really have no credit. Because, wrestling fans weren't idiots thirty years ago. They understood who was talented and who was not. And they wouldn't keep forking their money over to someone who did not entertain them in the ring.

And yet, for decades, both with him as face and heel, fans continued to give their money to Hogan, a true sign of his greatness. For all of Steve Austin's incredible run in the late 90s, he fizzled out inside of five years. Hogan did it for 20.

I wasn't ever saying that Hogan didn't have a great/Phenomenal workrate. But here is the thing Being an Average to Good Worker has nothing to do with being the Best Draw in the history of Wrestling. Because if you have the look and a good workrate you don't have to be awesome in the ring. Personally I would rather watch a Dynamite Kid and Tiger Mask match than a Hogan match because I prefer the style better. But I never deny what Hogan did as a Figure head. You also go and contradict yourself by mentioning Brody and Hansen and saying that they made you unsure of it being Choreographed and then said that Hulking Up is mastery of the crowd you go from Selling a match to no-selling the opponents moves. This would make a contradiction in Hogan there. Im probably more inclined to agree with what you said about the way the finishers are now the dominating thing rather than a part of the match but is a Punch wrestling no it is Punching someone in the head or gut or wherever, whereas a chinlock/headlock is more of a Wrestling move, if that makes sense, you are wearing the person out so they are exhausted rather than knocking them out. Also Stone Cold is a different beast all together as his career was cut short by Bad knees and the botched piledriver that broke his neck, so it is harder to say whether Austin would still draw now.

 

[THe WHoLe FuCKiN SHoW]

i hope i dont get banned for this because i want to continue the debate but i just was wondering if you could tell me how you do the whole quote and then answer it thing. i dont know how to get the specific things i wanna comment on in order like that. and just so i dont get banned lemme put something meaningful.

i cant really argue with you on most of the things you said cuz i dont really hate hogan. i will say the whole cue ball example was pretty damn good and actually made me think about which one was better. lol. i do enjoy someone getting their jaw smashed with a cue ball.

i guess the only thing left to be debated would be his inring ability. now i read that he was a much better wrestler in japan but ive never seen any of those matches so im going based on what ive seen in his american matches. i dont think ill ever consider him a great wrestler but i dont think he even needed to be a great wrestler so that never mattered much to me. i think i need to clear up one thing that i said tho. as far as inring ability, i was focused more on ;arge movesets and flashy manuevers. only because after a while, clotheslines and headlocks start to get boring. now while i dont think hogan had too many of those flashy moves, i do still think he was a great inring performer. the things he did during his matches were marvelous and he owned the crowd night in and night out.

just out of curiousity, where would you yourself rank hogan as far as technical ability. would you have him ahead of guys like bret hart, hbk and flair? (btw i wasnt praising angle but he did have a pure moonsault) i personally wouldnt.

and also, are there any matches you would recomend (perhaps japanese matches) that i could watch to maybe get a glimpse of hogans inring ability in an environment where he was more free to display it? id be quite interested in watchin those.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Again I have to agree with sly, in that Hogan was very underrated as an in ring preformer. He did, VERY rarely botch anything, and everything he did looked great. Watch him carry the warrior in that WM 6 match. Half the current guys in wwe could cell a reverse chinlock, or a reverse suplex, or a bpdy slam, and make it look as good as hogan did. all the moves he did do, were always perfect. Punches, kicks, clotheslines, were always spot on. Hulk Hogan didnt HAVE to do big flashy crazy shit in the ring, becuase the moves he DID do were done well, and he did it all with great timing and execution. Just cuz he wasnt doing moonsaults off of ladders, doesnt mean he wasnt great in ring.

And people need to get off the whole "he doesnt job he plays politics blah blah" shit. it pisses me off, just like when people talk about Triple H like that. Hogan DID job to Ultimate Warrior, a guy who was infinately inept in the ring, and vastly less talented than hogan. He lost to him CLEAN at what was, at the time, the biggest event ever. He lost to the rock, CLEAN, in one of the most memorable matches of all time. who else has the same amount of memorable moments??

VS Piper, at the first WM
VS Andre at WM 3 in front of nearly 100,000 people (supposedly)..what is regarded to this day by many, as the biggest match of all time
A clinic VS Randy Savage at WM 5
The clean loss to Warrior, the first time a face vs face main event was tried in a major event like that...
WM 7, my personal favorite, vs Sgt slaughter...the intesity on Hogan, the selling by slaughter, this seriously looked like a real fight lol, and you cant beat the bloodied hogan coming back against the Iraqi sympathizer during desert storm
VS the rock, at wm X8...just simply unforgettable atmosphere

No one else can claim this many amazing moments. He made WM what it is, carrying it on his back for the first EIGHT...
NO skills? No tralent????
dude in his prime, could rock a suplex or a body slam, or a clothesline, like many in the current WWE could only dream of...Promos?? you seriously cant beat a lot of Hogan promos...
"right here mcmahon, this is were the power lies brother"
ridiculous....

 

[Shadowmancer]

Here is a Match of Hogans against Great Muta from 1993. Hogans work in Japan is stiffer.

Hulk Hogan Vs. The Great Muta pt.1
[YOUTUBE]8f-p0tkCuZg[/YOUTUBE]

Hulk Hogan Vs. The Great Muta pt.2
[YOUTUBE]XLvOpcwGAe0[/YOUTUBE]

Hulk Hogan Vs. The Great Muta pt.3
[YOUTUBE]Eg-F9msTmSU[/YOUTUBE]

As you can see it is different from his American work despite the fact that it was after working the WWF style for so many years prior to this. Some people on youtube are saying it isn't as good as some of his other Japanese stuff but I will look at it later.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

Your right. I'm sure 95% of the wrestlers are in the business to not make the most money possible.

All wrestlers are in it for themselves. That's the nature of the business.


He wasn't even in the Top 5 during the time period he wrestled. Hogan, Savage, Flair, Austin, and Rock all are head and shoulders above Foley.

First, you think that most people in the wrestling business are striving to make the most money that they possibly can? Word on the boards is that you are a pretty smart guy. So, I'm sure that you didn't realize that you didn't take into account that most of these guys started in some crap local federation where they were making 30 dollars for a match. Sounds like there's a lot of original greed going on in this industry...

I will give you that Hogan, Austin, the Rock, and maybe even Flair were above Foley. But let's be honest here...Savage? I consider myself to be a pretty huge Macho Mark, but I can understand that Savage was overrated.

Not to mention, my argument was based upon you seeing that maybe the guys who are at the top aren't the most important. Look at WWE now. You have Cena, Orton, Hunter, Michaels, on Raw. But who is underneath? Jeff Hardy? Umaga? Seriously? I think it would be an injustice to say that Foley wasn't in the top 5 during his prime.

 

[THe WHoLe FuCKiN SHoW]

thanx for the match shadowmancer. ill check this out right now. im pretty interested to see what hogan can do here.

and i will be back later after i watch this match to comment on what streamboat just said about one of my favorite wrestlers of all time, the macho man randy savage. overrated??? you have got to be kidding me. the guys was absolutely fantastic. but this thread isnt about macho. its about hogan.

i hav to say steamboats post didnt really have much to do with hogan tho. i think we're getting off track here.

 

[kenfuu]

Hogan was great, i don't think he was the best in ring performer but he was good enough where his charisma carried him. If you take away his charisma then he's not that special and that's a fact. Now my main problem withHogan was his influence in Wrestlemania 9. The original plan was for Hogan and Beefcake to beat Money Inc. for the tag titles and for Bret Hart to beat Yokozuna. Hogan felt that he was to big for the tag titles so he said that the Megalomaniac's(Hogan and Beefcake) would lose by disqualification and because Hogan did not want to put Hart over and the next ppv)King of the Ring) Hogan used creative power to screw Bret out a push that he deserved and stole the spot light from a guy who earned it, thus making me dislike him ever since. And just FYI Bret Hart is probably my favorite wrestler ever, so I have reason to hate after that.

 

[Slyfox696]

I wasn't ever saying that Hogan didn't have a great/Phenomenal workrate. But here is the thing Being an Average to Good Worker has nothing to do with being the Best Draw in the history of Wrestling. Because if you have the look and a good workrate you don't have to be awesome in the ring.

But, workrate is part of what makes someone good in the ring. So is storytelling ability, psychology and selling, and Hogan was great at all those as well. So, at what part of the game was Hogan NOT good at that would make you call him average in the ring?

You also go and contradict yourself by mentioning Brody and Hansen and saying that they made you unsure of it being Choreographed and then said that Hulking Up is mastery of the crowd you go from Selling a match to no-selling the opponents moves. This would make a contradiction in Hogan there.

I don't understand how that's a contradiction.

Im probably more inclined to agree with what you said about the way the finishers are now the dominating thing rather than a part of the match but is a Punch wrestling no it is Punching someone in the head or gut or wherever, whereas a chinlock/headlock is more of a Wrestling move, if that makes sense, you are wearing the person out so they are exhausted rather than knocking them out. Also Stone Cold is a different beast all together as his career was cut short by Bad knees and the botched piledriver that broke his neck, so it is harder to say whether Austin would still draw now.

In professional wrestling, a punch is as much of a wrestling move as a side headlock.

I think what you are getting at is STYLE of match. No, Hogan did not work a technical style of match, but why should he? How would that have made sense? He was a large man, strong as an ox. It makes more sense for him to use strikes and power moves, and less technical moves. That's called psychology. The way your portray your character in the ring with regard to how you work the fans is psychology. And, Hogan was phenomenal at it.

First, you think that most people in the wrestling business are striving to make the most money that they possibly can? Word on the boards is that you are a pretty smart guy. So, I'm sure that you didn't realize that you didn't take into account that most of these guys started in some crap local federation where they were making 30 dollars for a match. Sounds like there's a lot of original greed going on in this industry...

What?

That makes no sense. Let me ask you this. If there was no greed, how come wrestling don't KEEP making 30 dollars a match? If it was just about the noble profession, then why don't all wrestlers keep working for 30 dollars a match?

Just because they are nobodies and nobody pays to see them, doesn't mean they don't desire to make the most money possible.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

What?

That makes no sense. Let me ask you this. If there was no greed, how come wrestling don't KEEP making 30 dollars a match? If it was just about the noble profession, then why don't all wrestlers keep working for 30 dollars a match?

Just because they are nobodies and nobody pays to see them, doesn't mean they don't desire to make the most money possible.

It makes a great deal of sense, actually. How many "nobody" wrestlers actually go on to make a whole lot of money? Answer: not very many.

So, the point of the argument is that there has to be a deeper motivation to get into the business....and thus, perhaps because they truly love the sport.

If these guys were all about making a lot of money, they would go and become stock brokers.