How racist was Saba Simba?

[Tastycles]

Being British, I'm quite often embarrased about watching wrestling. However, I have never been more embarrassed than when I was watching something from the early nineties and Saba Simba came out. Here he is.


The gimmick basically consisted of Tony Atlas dressing up like a tribesman from Uganda and doing a load of stereotypical shit like dancing about as he wrestled. Unsuprisingly the gimmick didn't last very long, but honestly, I was watching it with friends, and shrank into my seat when he came on.

Am I overreacting, or was Saba Simba the most racist thing that wrestling has ever done?

 

[pun2003hh]

Definitely not the MOST racist thing wrestling has ever done. As a matter of fact, Kamala was a very similar gimmick to the one you mentioned, only he was grossly overweight, slapped his stomach and acted like a savage. And he was around for a number of years in the WWF spotlight.

A good percentage of wrestling characters have always been based on taking stereotypes and amplifying them. The Headshrinkers were Samoan savages that also carried around shrunken heads. The Quebecers were the French Canadian Mountie Police. The Nation of Domination was a black militant gang. Kaientai was a goofy Japanese group that spoke as if they were in a bad Godzilla spoof. Even Eddie Guerrero played the underhanded Mexican with a penchant for stealing. I could go on and on and some segment of people would find each of these gimmicks to be offensive in someway, but it has always been like this.

It has been toned down over recent years, but you still have had your Happy Jamaican (Kingston, played by a West African), your Muslim Extremest (Muhammad Hussan played by an Italian) your stoic Russian (Koslov), and a few others.

 

[degenxr1]

truthfully this was meant as a feel good gimmick-warrior pride.. That was suppose to be how Saba Simba (great lion or something similar) was supposed to be. I think we need to so lighten up...it is all fantasy--what are we going to start boycotting movies---sometimes things are just over picked....but everyone knows he was Tony Atlas....

 

[Poop Master Flex]

truthfully this was meant as a feel good gimmick--if you remember it was right after the huge success of the lion king and the "circle of life song"; and the play had opened and it was really considered ground breaking and special. That was suppose to be how Saba Simba (great lion or something similar) was supposed to be. I think we need to so lighten up...it is all fantasy--what are we going to start boycotting movies---sometimes things are just over picked....

This gimmick was in '91, over 3 years before there was a Lion King movie so yeah I'm pretty sure this wasn't supposed to be a feel good gimmick (and makes me question if you've ever seen Saba Simba in the ring).

Back to the original point, I think this was the WWE being over stereotypical with their wrestlers, something they have been doing for years and years, and it was also at a time where doing gimmicks like this wasn't a really big deal (at least in the general publics eyes). I don't think I would go as far as calling it the most racist thing that the WWE has ever done, especially when considering characters like Akeem (Now the transformation of Akeem may have been the most racist thing they've ever done). I guess what I'm saying is wrestling has often made successful gimmicks that were overly stereotypical (Great Kabuki, Mr. Fuji, Yokozuna, Kamala, The Mountie, New Jack,ect.) so I don't think it's too big a deal and I've seen alot more racist thing out of the WWE than Saba Simba.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

I wouldn't go so far as say this character was the most racist or stereotypical when just a week or so ago Cryme Tyme broke up. Now THAT was the most offensive gimmick I have seen. Black men that steal things and dress up as quote unquote "gangstas".

Remember Tatanka? He did a little Native American War Dance when he got pumped up, and that was about five years ago or so.

Remember Mexicools? They drove out in lawn mowers...

How about Umaga? Great wrestler that he was, his gimmick was another Samoan tribesman.

And what about Finlay? The guy carries a Shelleleigh (unsure how to spell that) and used to have the leprechaun Hornswoggle underneath the ring...

The Great Khali, who spoke almost perfect English to be from India in the movie The Longest Yard, spoke jibberish (possibly Indian, but to the English viewers it might as well have been jibberish to us) throughout his time in WWE. Stereotype much?

Not to mention every Japanese wrestler has had some kind of Japanese sterotype upon them. (Kung-Fu Naki anyone?) Even Yoshi Tatsu has been made to look like a playable character in Tekken.

Keep in mind these are Modern stereotypical stars. In the 80's to 90's it was forgivable to have those Larger Than Life characters, because people wanted to see "High Chief" Peter Mavia take on Junkyard Dog. Gimmicks ran wild, brother but in this day and age people look for realism, and guys like Saba Simba just wouldnt sell now.

 

[Amarillo del Bosque Verde]

Actually no. Just think back to many foreign wrestlers in the wwe...Every samoan wrestler was made into a dominator who spoke jibberish. The mexicools came out on lawnmowers. There have been others that I can think of at the time, but don't forget...this is wrestling. It's all characters and the characters are stereotypical to entertain the fans!

 

[Tenta]

Actually no. Just think back to many foreign wrestlers in the wwe...Every samoan wrestler was made into a dominator who spoke jibberish. The mexicools came out on lawnmowers. There have been others that I can think of at the time, but don't forget...this is wrestling. It's all characters and the characters are stereotypical to entertain the fans!

I think what everyone fails to see is that, just because there have been other racist gimmicks in the WWE, that shouldn't exclude this case of Racism. And this, by every stretch of the means, is the most cliched, and overused gimmick to ever be used the in the WWE; The Foreign Savage. Read; not just African, but foreign. This may as well be placed in the same category as Superfly Snuka and Umaga; there really is no difference between the two, aside that Saba Simba portrayed an African stereotype, and portrayed it more specifically.

Anyway, as to how racist it was.... I'd have to say that Kamala was always more racist. He was led to the ring by his white superior most of the time, and had to be tamed by said white person, always following his control. I'm not too sure if Kim Chee is white, admittedly, though I always felt it was implied. This, to me, separates Kamala from Simba. Simba, at the very least, wasn't led by the hand by a white individual, and wqasn't controlled by anybody. He was a simpleton, but he was less of one than Kamala. I feel if Vince would have given Simba some promo time, that would have really gone to show if this gimmick was worse than Kamala. However, as much as I love Jim Harris the worker, there's no doubt that Kamala was an absolutely offensive gimmick. Quite frankly, I'm often shocked that when people cry racism, this isn't the gimmick they point to. Everyone points to Saba Simba, but the truth is, Kamala was as bad a gimmick as you'll find in the WWE. It was crude, offensive, and yet people typically let it slide.

Anyway, yes, Saba was racist; don't let less racist get confused with not racist. Still, I always found Kamala more offensive as a gimmick.

 

[Aberle4Life]

I think the Saba Simba character was racist, but I wouldn't put it up there as the most racist angle/character in wrestling history. To me, that dubious distinction goes to the AWA and the Col. DeBeers/Jimmy Snuka feud.

The whole angle was about DeBeers, a white guy, being dominant over Snuka simply because their races were different. Every week, DeBeers would try to demean Snuka and it was all fueled by a racist hatred. This angle took place in the mid-to-late 80's, so many of you might not know of it. Nobody would ever touch an angle like this in mainstream wrestling today.

Back to the original topic, Saba Simba was racist mostly because of who portrayed him actually. Saba was not Tony Atlas' first gimmick. Years earlier, he was "Mr. USA" Tony Atlas. WWF actually wanted us to believe Atlas was now a guy from Africa? Just because he was black, right? I don't remember everything about the character, like if they ever explained it was Atlas and he just grew to hate America or something..but I never liked the character and thought they should have brought him back as Mr. USA again. Instead, they created Saba Simba and definitely stereotyped a certain group of people.

A lot of things WWF did during that time were just stupid. Fortunately for them, fans like me had been with them through the good times in the 80's and so I continued watching despite the suckitude. Also, they still had a few solid wrestlers such as Bret and HBK and Macho Man and the Bulldog.

 

[smfiscus1]

This is the dumbest thread EVER! A lot of really good wrestlers were based on stereotypes. That's the definition of gimmick! It's a marketing thing. If people see people who are like them on tv it gives them something to connect with and so they will watch and likely pay for merchandise. It's not racist, it's just smart marketing.

 

[Hundred Dollar Man]

nothing racist at all about that CHARACHTER. that is how wrestling was then, everyone played a charachter. If you see racism in it you need to get the sand out of your vj and hug someone.

 

[chriscage]

Speaking of racist, has anyone ever you tubed Greg Valentines' promo on the Junkyard dog? I laughed when i first saw it but it's VERY bad! All he talks about what a nasty black man JYD is and how he gonna rub his black face into the ground....leaving a big black mark. Watch it if you haven't seen it....I've never heard something like that in a wrestling promo before!

 

[E.Quipped]

Not sure about the overall character, but Roddy Piper saying Mr. T wore more chains than his ancestors is about the most blatantly racist thing I can remember ever airing on WWF/E TV.

 

[3,000 Pound Gorrilla]

The Saba Simba character was a form of racism called stereo-typing. Most racist...nah, been plenty as bad if not worse. SGT. Slaughter turning on the U.S. and teaming with General Adnan... General Adnan was born in Baghdad... and casted for that role... an Iraqi militant. I, as a white American, couldn't play the role. Hell, Dwyane Johnson couldn't play the role. But, he could play an African-American militant. So, wrestlers are type-casted into the roles they can play. Is it stereo-typing, yeah, but Hollywood doesn't mind Jackie Chan being a speedy, flippy martial artist... and noone cries racism. And there you have it.

 

[SydTinDad]

Testicles, to start this thread was pathetic and lame.

Sadly you have failed to grasp that rappers, and all these other "ghetto mongers" are the catalysts for making our society raciallly hypocritical when it comes to stereotyping and using parodies. Examples:

Charles Barkley saying he hates white people = OK
Booker T using the word "*****" during a promo = OK
Don Imus saying "nappy headed hos" = String him up, how dare he!
Jimmy The Greek saying blacks are better athletes = String him up, how dare he!
Black Comedian calls Michele Obama a primate = OK
White Comedian call Michele Obama a primate = String him up, how dare he!

Sense the pattern here? 'Some people' just need to shut the f*** up. When blacks do it, it's ok. When a white man like VKM asks a black man in Tony Atlas to become Saba Simba, it's racist.

Your Sir, are clearly an idiot.

Sincerely,

An educated African American male with a career and money, who hates little South Central ghetto crying bitches who think they are 'hard', who kill, rape, steal, push drugs, and blame 'the white man' for thier failures in life.

 

[Marko Markovic]

Racist is such a harsh word.Its just stereotype,nothing else.If you look,even in close past you might find something like that in proffesional wrestling because its a common stereotype

Lately deceased Umaga was to me very stereotypical in his gimmick.He was coming like he was from the jungle always yelling something improhepensible and and run at his opponents like he was going to it them afterwards.There is a whole bunch of other stereotypes in the WWE/WCW past and its nothing more then that

My point is that WWE/WCW wasnt racistic when they where doing Saba Simba gimmick its just common use of stereotype and nothing past that

 

[aman7525]

rac·ism  /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Show Spelled[rey-siz-uhm] Show IPA

–noun

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.


ster·e·o·type  /ˈstɛriəˌtaɪp, ˈstɪər-/ Show Spelled [ster-ee-uh-tahyp, steer-] Show IPA noun, verb,-typed, -typ·ing.

–noun

4. Sociology. a simplified and standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and held in common by members of a group: The cowboy and Indian are American stereotypes.

i think the difference between racism or stereotyping would be the intent. i don't think that any of these gimmicks were conceived out of hatred of any race just a skewed view of other cultures.

 

[CrAzY mIkE]

razor ramon was a pretty racist charachter, if i remember correctly he was based on the tony montana charachter from scarface, a drug dealer from cuba. to me that's pretty racist too.

 

[robbo316]

Not sure about the overall character, but Roddy Piper saying Mr. T wore more chains than his ancestors is about the most blatantly racist thing I can remember ever airing on WWF/E TV.

Not really that racist, when you consider that Mr.T actually said something similar himself. He stated that he wore all the chains to remind himself of the struggles his ancestors went through. Also, on the subject of Mr.T, who was christened Laurence Tureaud, he stated that he changed his name to Mr.T "..So white folks would have to call me mister..". Pipers chains quote isn't the most blatantly racist thing he ever did. Check out the match between him and Bad News Brown (another TERRIBLE racist gimmick, oh I think I may pass out with rage at all this racism.........No I'm fine.) where Piper blacked up half his body. WMVI if your interested in any history. Which most people on their soapboxes aren't because it tends to knacker their argument.

 

[CrunKSinatrA]

Yea Saba Simba was pretty bad but wrestling has had it far share of stereotypes that are always present.

Mexicans wear masks and can fly. All japanese wrestlers know karate, throw salt, and spit green mist. And last if a black guy does a dance before he punches you... instant KO. Dude should've tapped out during the dance if he knew what was good for him.

Wrestling is pretty bad about it's racism... but they get every one pretty equally. Kind of like Family Guy and South Park, no one is spared and everyone is fair game. Plus professional wrestling is so old it might count as a time honored tradition to have a stereotypical character to attract a certain crowd. I mean even Hulk Hogan is an Italian dude, real name Terry Bollea, made out to be an Irish superstar for the Irish crowd.

 

[TokiRKO]

hey deanandterry, you do realise that Lion King was a broadway promotion WAY before it was bastardized by Disney, right? Degen even said ''right after the PLAY had opened''.

Sure Samba was stereotypical, to add more that i didn't see mentioned: boogeyman was a witch doctor, the godfather was the original boogeyman before he hopped on the HOOOOO train (don't remember his persona name), and you even have the leprechaun hornswaggle now. Hell if you pick enough you could consider khali a stereotypical monster from india, kane is a stereptypical pyromaniac after being burned, randy orton is a stereotypical maniac......you get where i'm taking this? EVERY ONE can be a stereptype. Cena used to be the farm boy white bread rapper (eminem with 5 moves instead of 5 hit songs lol) Don't pick gimmicks apart, you'll die before you finish and it will ruin wrestling for you. I think your fish n chips have gone stale mate (see, now even YOU are a stereotype)

 

[E.Quipped]

Not really that racist, when you consider that Mr.T actually said something similar himself. He stated that he wore all the chains to remind himself of the struggles his ancestors went through. Also, on the subject of Mr.T, who was christened Laurence Tureaud, he stated that he changed his name to Mr.T "..So white folks would have to call me mister..". Pipers chains quote isn't the most blatantly racist thing he ever did. Check out the match between him and Bad News Brown (another TERRIBLE racist gimmick, oh I think I may pass out with rage at all this racism.........No I'm fine.) where Piper blacked up half his body. WMVI if your interested in any history. Which most people on their soapboxes aren't because it tends to knacker their argument.

Yeah, I remember seeing that as a kid.....actually have the original PPV broadcast on tape. Still not exactly sure what point he was trying to make. I just remember that it was really strange. Didn't know the back story on the T stuff so thanks for the info.

 

[The Roid Rage]

I, normally being one to take issue with such a topic, don't really feel compelled by this one. I think this is a whole lot of fuss over nothing. But give credit to Tasty on getting a whole lot of something out of a little bit of nothing. Seriously, it's wrestling. I don't think any of it is meant to be blatantly racist. Stereotypical? Of course, but how do you really get around that? Any character someone plays is based off of something or someone in reality, yet when portraying it in a fictional scenario it's called "Stereotyping".

EXAMPLE TIME !!!!!!(sung in melody of course)

Let's say I were the one drafting the ideas for the tag team Cryme Tyme. I want a tag team of guys who act like urban gangsters because I know that in society they are glorified through Rap/Hip-Hop(which I don't have a problem with, lifelong rap fan talking here) and that the kids will think their cool. A great idea to go along with that, is that I can have these characters who are urban gangsters steal stuff from people in comedic fashion which the fan base will find funny as well. Who am I going to get to play those characters? Why not Ted DiBiase and Cody Rhodes, I totally think urban gangster wrestlers when I think of those guys, don't you? Or maybe I should have Edge and Christian team up for that role, those guys would totally fit the bill right? Fuck NO.

If I want characters like that I probably want two guys who look like they could possibly be those characters. It just so happens that back in 1988 this group called N.W.A. showed up on the rap scene and kind of defined that character. Not long after that some of the members went solo doing the same thing, and promoting other talent that would go on to redefine that character as well in Snoop Doggy Dog and Tupac.

They helped this phenomenon called rap explode into the American culture, becoming more and more popular, meaning more and more people were doing it. Since you don't change a good thing for the most part the recipe never changed much besides becoming more over the top, more gaudy, and more accepted. As it happens to be that Shad and JTG are black guys who could pull it off, they might be the best candidate for the roles. Nothing racist about it, nothing really stereotypical. If you want someone to play a role, the person must fit the role. I'm sorry but I am not going to buy The Great Khali as The Great Gangsta Khali, or some other person who just couldn't fit that role.

Moral of the story is, that it's not stereotyping or racist to have someone play a character in a fake wrestling show. For all we know Tony Atlas could have come up with the gimmick, odds are he didn't, but you never know which means there's really no point in blowing it up into a big fuss about racism. That is about the last thing that needs to be drudged up, that horse is dead, it's been beaten to death, leave it alone. I personally think that racism is a joke, it's not even real, we make it real though when we argue about it and bring up all the bullshit of the past opening old wounds, and rekindling past aggressions. It's kind of funny, racism itself has no power, yet people allow it to have power over themselves. I see it an the most avoidable thing there is. If you give it life it will live, if you just shut the fuck up about it though and live and let live, racism dies.

 

[THEEVOLUTIONIST]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Chavo's Blonde hair Raw gimmick. Remember before Eddie died he dressed like a golfer and he'd say "if it ain't white it ain't right" he even went against Shelton Benjamin. I mean you can't get much racist than that.

 

[Buffalo Dave]

So Atlas's gimmick at that time was the African warrior Samba Simba. What else would you like him to do as he was portraying the character? He did what an African warrior probably would've done if he wrestled right? Its not really racist, more like goofy if anything. The gimmick very well couldn't have been played by a white guy now could it?

So If that is racist to you, how do you feel about Hillbilly Jim??? Now wouldn't that be racist too? A white guy playing a country bumpkin, with bib overalls, a shaggy beard, and that funny brown hat.

Something that would be borderline racist would be the character Virgil, Ted Dibiase's supposedly bodyguard (funny how Dibiase is actually bigger than him) but it looked more like a mean ass butler to him, with his flashy suit bowtie in all, and he never seemed to protect him but take a beating for him as Dibiase got away from it.

 

[robbo316]

Yea Saba Simba was pretty bad but wrestling has had it far share of stereotypes that are always present.

Mexicans wear masks and can fly. All japanese wrestlers know karate, throw salt, and spit green mist. And last if a black guy does a dance before he punches you... instant KO. Dude should've tapped out during the dance if he knew what was good for him.

Wrestling is pretty bad about it's racism... but they get every one pretty equally. Kind of like Family Guy and South Park, no one is spared and everyone is fair game. Plus professional wrestling is so old it might count as a time honored tradition to have a stereotypical character to attract a certain crowd. I mean even Hulk Hogan is an Italian dude, real name Terry Bollea, made out to be an Irish superstar for the Irish crowd.

Actually it wasn't so much to appeal to the Irish crowd, it was through Vincent J McMahon being of Irish descent that he wanted to give him an Irish name. I take it that you mean Hogan is of Italian descent? Because he was born in Tampa, not Italy. Just checking, I sometimes get very anal about language!