Hogan Opinions on The Rocks Return Retort to Hogan

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Both you and Sly try bringing up this point of how Austin used to hold people down but I think that this is total bullshit.

First of all you guys agree that people got a rub by just being in the same ring as Hogan. Guys like Zeus, Curt Hennig, Earthquake and a few others come to mind. Why is it not the same case for Austin? Didn't guys like Rock, Foley, HHH, Jericho, Benoit and Angle get a rub by being in the same ring as Austin? It is like you are using two different sets of criterias to judge either guy. Hogan gives a rub by just wrestling guys but Austin has to lose to give the rub. What kind of logic is that?

Frankly you guys will keep bringing up how right it was for Hogan to win against HBK but that Austin should have jobbed to Lesnar in a KOTR qualifier. If Hogan had his reasons so did Austin. If Hogan does not deserve to be blamed for holding guys down, so does Austin. And Attitude Era fans are not ignorant, at least not more than the fans of the Hogan era.

Where have I said that Austin had to lose to somebody to give them a rub? I didn't. I can argue that Foley gave a rub to those superstars you mention with the exception of Jericho, Benoit, and Angle more than Austin.

I'm just stating that Austin's backstage politics never get mentioned or brought as much as Hogan's or HBK's but let's not act like they don't exist.

 

[Slyfox696]

Both you and Sly try bringing up this point of how Austin used to hold people down but I think that this is total bullshit.

I didn't say anything about that. All I did was reference when Austin wouldn't put Brock Lesnar over.

Kindly remove me from your crosshairs, unless you want to go after something I actually said.

First of all you guys agree that people got a rub by just being in the same ring as Hogan. Guys like Zeus, Curt Hennig, Earthquake and a few others come to mind.

Wrong again. I'm not saying they got a rub because they were in the ring with Hogan, they got a rub because Hogan helped put them over as believable and credible threats. Being in a program with someone doesn't put another over, but the way Hogan did his programs, while he would win in the end, you cannot deny his opponents always came out better than when they went in.

Frankly you guys will keep bringing up how right it was for Hogan to win against HBK but that Austin should have jobbed to Lesnar in a KOTR qualifier.

I never said Austin should have jobbed, what I said is that he refused to put him over. I think your understanding of wrestling terms is a little off.

Oh, and Hogan DID job to Lesnar. And I mean jobbed, not lost to.

If Hogan had his reasons so did Austin. If Hogan does not deserve to be blamed for holding guys down, so does Austin.

Except Hogan didn't hold HBK down, he deserved to go over HBK. What part of this thread did you not read when I explained this numerous times?

And Attitude Era fans are not ignorant, at least not more than the fans of the Hogan era.

Yes they are. I've been on wrestling forums for a long time, and I can say, without a doubt, those fans who started watching wrestling during the Attitude are far more ignorant than those who were watching the previous generations.

That's not an insult, just an observation.

 

[Uncle Sam]

What of those that started watching post-Attitude Era?

 

[MrHashasheen]

What of those that started watching post-Attitude Era?

Yeah, what about us? I only started watching mid-2006 and not regularly until 2010. Though I have made an effort to watch pre-Attitude stuff more than the Attitude era itself.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

1. To my ICE colleagues - when you'd like to after Sly for a Hogan debate, please let's meet and discuss strategy first.

2. I watched Wrestlemania 8 (again) on Saturday. Sid Justice was uber-over because of his program with Hogan, and had he stuck around in WWF without the flip-flop, he would have seen far greater success than he did even coming back and winning gold a few years later. Hogan put Sid over bigger than his Horsemen days ever could.

3. I honestly think that Cena and Rock spoke a while back and agreed to pull out all the stops. In fact, the way Cena comes off to me, I bet he even asked the Rock to make some of those comments about his character. I don't think of what the Rock did as character assassination. If you're going to talk trash, do it 100%. Rock did, and I'll bet Cena green lighted it.

4. EDIT - my first wrestling experience was watching The Undertaker stuff the Ultimate Warrior in a coffin. And my first PPV was Wrestlemania 8. I have since watched every prior PPV at some point since I was 12 and have read up an quite a bit. I agree that fans who 'came of age' duing the Attitude Era are less likely to do that than fans from any other era are.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

Wrong again. I'm not saying they got a rub because they were in the ring with Hogan, they got a rub because Hogan helped put them over as believable and credible threats. Being in a program with someone doesn't put another over, but the way Hogan did his programs, while he would win in the end, you cannot deny his opponents always came out better than when they went in.

That is something that everyone has done. From Hogan to Austin to Rock to Cena and Orton. What did they do differently as compared to Hogan? They strung together good feuds with their opponents, participated in matches in which they gave their opponents a ton of offense, sold their offense well and won the match if the situation demanded them to win the match. It is something every wrestler has done so please don't try to paint it as some sort of achievement for Hogan. Hell I'll say some of Austin and Cena's feuds were more entertaining to me than Hogan's but that might just be my opinion.

I never said Austin should have jobbed, what I said is that he refused to put him over. I think your understanding of wrestling terms is a little off.

From what I know and I have seen little evidence to suggest otherwise, Austin was supposed to lose in a KOTR qualifier match to Lesnar on Raw without any buildup. He felt that it was wrong and that a feud against Lesnar deserved better build up and he would readily lose to Lesnar if the feud was good. That is what I have read in Austin's book which by the way has been published by WWE books.

So in this case putting over equalled jobbing and I think Austin made the correct call. You have to be foolish to think otherwise.

Oh, and Hogan DID job to Lesnar. And I mean jobbed, not lost to.

Yeah well he probably shouldn't have.

Except Hogan didn't hold HBK down, he deserved to go over HBK. What part of this thread did you not read when I explained this numerous times?

And niether did Austin hold down Lesnar. He deserved to have a good feud with the next rising star on his way out and not job.

Yes they are. I've been on wrestling forums for a long time, and I can say, without a doubt, those fans who started watching wrestling during the Attitude are far more ignorant than those who were watching the previous generations.

That's not an insult, just an observation.

Ignorant in what way? Almost every fan is prone to hero worship. Hogan in your case and Austin in mine and Cena in the case of say Ferbian. And there is hardly anything wrong in it.

 

[Coco]

Perhaps you are young, and don't realize this yet, but people always hate those who are great. It's called jealousy. They don't realize they just don't work as hard as the top dog, and so they get jealous and spew jealousy and talk bad about those who are on top.

Forget how hard someone works when it comes to a comparison between Jericho and Hogan. How about how well they work? Jericho could have put in back breaking labour 24/7/365 and still wouldn't have been able to connect with the audience in the way Hogan did and still does. It isn't all about hard work. Some people are just inherently better than others.

And this is coming from someone who far and away prefers Chris Jericho to Hulk Hogan.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

You know, somebody mentioned Jericho earlier. I just finished his new book Saturday Night, and he said something interesting about Hogan.

When Hulk came back to feud with Jericho, Hogan let Jericho call the whole thing. He'd come in, walk up to Chris, and ask him "so what do you have planned for us tonight and how can I help?" Chris also mentioned that, unlike Flair and even The Rock, Hogan was never about "getting his stuff in." He was about the best possible match.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Hogan and Flair worked the most simplest matches and I can see Hogan Doing what IC mentioned more than I can see Flair.

 

[orton0384]

You're obviously new here.

Yessir I am. LOL You can see by my posts here.

My thoughts are that yes, Hogan has put people over. To say he NEVER has is a lie. However, he is guilty of NOT putting people over. Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, and many others are in the same boat. I just found his statements to be utter garbage in my eyes and ears.

This is a feud for the sake of fans. I'm sure The Rock has no animosity or intention of burial of Cena. You can see by their ribbing at The Hall of Fame 2008, I'm sure the Huckster knows this too. However, to lambast someone YOU put over and speak ill like your better than them with your holier than thou attitude Mister Hogan is not very smart in my opinion.

I'm sure Vince did not let a man like Dwayne Johnson come back to destroy his creation in a 25 minute promo.

That's why my brain flipped when I read that article.

 

[Slyfox696]

3. I honestly think that Cena and Rock spoke a while back and agreed to pull out all the stops. In fact, the way Cena comes off to me, I bet he even asked the Rock to make some of those comments about his character. I don't think of what the Rock did as character assassination. If you're going to talk trash, do it 100%. Rock did, and I'll bet Cena green lighted it.

I would not doubt that. Wouldn't surprise me if that were the case at all, but I think the point that Hogan was making is that even if that were the case that doesn't mean it's the right way to do things. You don't want your biggest moneymaker being turned on by the fans because of a guy who was making his first live appearance in the ring since 2005 or 2006.

That is something that everyone has done. From Hogan to Austin to Rock to Cena and Orton. What did they do differently as compared to Hogan? They strung together good feuds with their opponents, participated in matches in which they gave their opponents a ton of offense, sold their offense well and won the match if the situation demanded them to win the match. It is something every wrestler has done so please don't try to paint it as some sort of achievement for Hogan. Hell I'll say some of Austin and Cena's feuds were more entertaining to me than Hogan's but that might just be my opinion.

I disagree. I don't feel like every worker Rock feuded with came out better off because of it. I don't feel that way about Triple H. I don't feel that way about Austin. I don't feel that way about Orton. I don't feel that way about HBK earlier in his career (later in his career I think it was more true, but not earlier in his career). I do feel that way about Bret Hart and Hulk Hogan. And I think for the most part, you could say the same of Ric Flair back when he was on top in the NWA. Flair held people down outside the ring, but usually once they were in the ring, he'd make them look good.

You can say that about some, but not all wrestlers. However, you CAN say that about Hogan. So this nonsense that he doesn't put people over should stay out of the thread.

From what I know and I have seen little evidence to suggest otherwise, Austin was supposed to lose in a KOTR qualifier match to Lesnar on Raw without any buildup. He felt that it was wrong and that a feud against Lesnar deserved better build up and he would readily lose to Lesnar if the feud was good. That is what I have read in Austin's book which by the way has been published by WWE books.

So in this case putting over equalled jobbing and I think Austin made the correct call. You have to be foolish to think otherwise.

Losing and jobbing are two separate things entirely.

You would have to be able to distinguish between the two terms to understand why I disagreed with your position. You can still make someone look good, regardless of who wins the match and how much build there is.

Yeah well he probably shouldn't have.

But he did, and Austin didn't. Just sayin'.

And niether did Austin hold down Lesnar. He deserved to have a good feud with the next rising star on his way out and not job.

That's not Austin's job. His job is to wrestle, not to book. But instead of putting on a good match with Lesnar and putting him over, Austin left pouting.

You can agree or disagree with Austin's perspective, but you cannot disagree with me when I say that Austin did not put over Lesnar when he was asked to. You might agree an Austin vs. Lesnar match deserved a feud, but you cannot deny Austin left instead of putting over Lesnar.

And that's all I was saying.

Ignorant in what way? Almost every fan is prone to hero worship. Hogan in your case and Austin in mine and Cena in the case of say Ferbian. And there is hardly anything wrong in it.

Hero worship? No, Hogan is not my hero, and neither is Cena. Recognizing truth and greatness is hardly worship.


Just because people make ignorant statements about Hogan's putting over others and I correct them doesn't mean I worship him. I just have a much better understanding of things beyond the limited scope of fans who started watching wrestling during the Attitude and ever. Call it age, wisdom, or experience, but even in this debate with you, you've shown your ignorance on the difference between jobbing and losing, as you have tried to make the terms interchangeable and they are not.

My thoughts are that yes, Hogan has put people over. To say he NEVER has is a lie. However, he is guilty of NOT putting people over.

Give me an example. Who did he feud with that he did not help get more over than they were before the program?

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Give me an example. Who did he feud with that he did not help get more over than they were before the program?

I am going to answer this just for the fun of it. And because it's a challenge. The list of those who didn't end up better will be so much shorter and less distinguished than the list of those Hogan has put over.

1. Earthquake. Quake wound up in a tag team with Tugboat shortly following his Summer Slam feud with Hogan, so no dice there. OF COURSE - the Hogan / Quake feud was supposed to be allowing the Warrior / Rude feud for Warrior's new WWF Title take hold, and instead, more people paid attention to Hogan vs Quake than Warrior vs Rude, so more than anything, it was a dent in Warrior's legacy. So we can't hold Hogan responsible for that.

2. King Kong Bundy. This is a poor example as well. Bundy was shit after he faced Hogan at Wrestlemania 2, and had he not been in that match, he just would have been worse shit. Hogan is the highlight of Bundy's pitiful WWF career. So this isn't a go either.

3. Billy Kidman. Of course, Hogan did put Kidman over in the ring, whether he lost of not, and it was a combination of WCW's booking and Kidman's attitude that cost Kidman, not Hogan's politics. At least that's my take. This may be the ONE that carries some weight.

4. Triple H. This one is fair. Shortly after HHH beat Jericho for the Undisputed Title, Vince put the strap on Hulk because he was far more over with the crowd. I don't think the Hogan feud was so much as a blip on HHH's radar. If you look back and ask yourself about HHH's great matches / feuds and who put HHH over, Hogan is nowhere on either list.

 

[ZeroVX]

Jesus Christ, the level of bitching in this thread is ridiculous. What is with the people in this thread? Did I just watch a completely different promo than everyone else on Monday? Where exactly did the Rock supposedly bury Cena?

Was it when he made fun of his outfit? Or his catchphrase that he hadn't used for a couple of years? Hell, going by that thought process, Miz got buried more than Cena! After all, Rock flat out said that Miz sucked. That's frickin' harsh compared to referencing breakfast cereal.

As for Hogan? The man's track record speaks for itself, and he really has no place claiming that someone buried someone. And before anyone starts breathing down my neck, no, Hogan didn't bury EVERYONE, but that doesn't mean he isn't guilty of burying people.

Honestly, you people have legitimately pissed me off. Many of you have begged and begged for The Rock to finally return to WWE, even if just for a bit, and as soon as he does, you start bitching. I have never been more disgusted with wrestling fans than I am right now. You have done nothing but prove how completely greedy you are. Nothing can satisfy you no matter what.

He probably had a different reason behind it, but NorCal was right. The ignorance in this thread is mind-blowing.

 

[Slyfox696]

IC, if not for Hogan, we wouldn't remember King King Bundy or the Earthquake. I think it's fairly clear that both those guys were better off from their feud with Hogan. As far as Kidman goes, he himself noted how pinning Hogan was a career highlight and how people were throwing things at him after his program with Hogan. I'm on my iPhone so I'm not going to link you, but you can find it in the sources part of the Kidman wikipedia. And as far as Triple H goes, he was using his win over Hogan back in 2002 in his interview TONIGHT. Kind of hard to say getting the win over Hogan wasn't a rub when he's still using it to put himself over almost 9 years later.

Zero, who has Hogan buried on camera. Please do what no one else in this thread has done and give us this big list of names Hogan is guilty of burying.

 

[Slyfox696]

Oh, and I almost forgot to mention the actual reason I came in this thread tonight which is to mention that Rock's promo tonight is exactly the type of promo he should be giving.

 

[Tech N9ne]

Oh really, why is that? Because he's right?

No. Because as many people as you say he put over, he has damaged as well. Whether that being during their active wrestling career or after it was over. He has done dumb shit as much as the next guy. I think he has a right to say anything he wants, no one can stop him from doing that, but at the very least, you gotta admit it sounds hypocritical.

 

[Slyfox696]

No. Because as many people as you say he put over, he has damaged as well. Whether that being during their active wrestling career or after it was over. He has done dumb shit as much as the next guy. I think he has a right to say anything he wants, no one can stop him from doing that, but at the very least, you gotta admit it sounds hypocritical.

And yet another post with accusations and without even ONE single example.



Seriously, who is on this long list of guys Hulk Hogan got on TV and buried. If it's hypocritical as you say, then surely you can give me 5 guys Hulk Hogan buried on TV.

 

[Pepe Silvia]

And yet another post with accusations and without even ONE single example.



Seriously, who is on this long list of guys Hulk Hogan got on TV and buried. If it's hypocritical as you say, then surely you can give me 5 guys Hulk Hogan buried on TV.

syxx?

Wasn't exactly a burial but it's the closest instance I can think of to one

 

[UltimateHitman]

I don't know, Jericho pointed it out in his book. I'd say half of the WCW roster is a pretty big number.

 

[Slyfox696]

syxx?

Wasn't exactly a burial but it's the closest instance I can think of to one

Wasn't Syxx-pac fired from WCW already when he said it? Which means he was with the WWF? Which means that example, weak as you admit it is, really doesn't apply anyways, since Hogan is referring to hurting your own business, not the rivals?

I don't know, Jericho pointed it out in his book. I'd say half of the WCW roster is a pretty big number.

And still, no specific names. You people are just ridiculous. I guess it's hard to admit how you've been blinded by IWC propaganda over the years. Half the WCW roster? Then it should be easy to give specific names, right?

C'mon, Hitman, you and I both know you have no problem making a fool out of yourself. Let's see those names.

 

[ZeroVX]

Zero, who has Hogan buried on camera. Please do what no one else in this thread has done and give us this big list of names Hogan is guilty of burying.

Dudleys/Team 3D: Not a direct burial, but what else could the long speech about drawing money and not caring about "23-time tag champions" have been directed at?

Bret Hart: Explain to me how suddenly winning the world title after Bret lost it to Yokozuna, and then not giving him the planned rematch at Summerslam, isn't a burial to some degree.

Vader: Before Hogan came along, Vader was the baddest motherfucker around, and if he hit you with the powerbomb, you were pretty much dead. The one time Hogan got hit with it, he immediately sat up. That not only buried Vader, but anyone else who took that and sold it properly, basically saying, in a kayfabe sense, that they were weak. Is it any surprise that Vader's American career never recovered from that?

Sting: Starrcade 97. I don't need to say anything else.

HBK: I don't care what you say, if you're making a guest appearance at a PPV, and can't even be bothered to stick around to properly build up the feud, you should not go over the guy who's actually in the company.

Orton: Same as above, but for different reasons. Orton needed the rub of beating Hogan and he needed it badly. He was stuck in the middle of nowhere since his loss of the World Title (besides his feud with Undertaker), and beating Hogan could finally put him in the main event permanently. Instead, Hogan goes over, and Orton is still in limbo for the next year.

Shall I go on, or is this enough?

 

[Slyfox696]

Dudleys/Team 3D: Not a direct burial

You defeated yourself. Thanks.

Bret Hart: Explain to me how suddenly winning the world title after Bret lost it to Yokozuna, and then not giving him the planned rematch at Summerslam, isn't a burial to some degree.

So...it's Hogan's fault McMahon booked Hogan to beat Yokozuna?

But to answer your question...how is it a burial? Did Hogan say anything about Hart? Did he no-sell Hart? Did Hart lose cleanly to Yokozuna and then Hogan cleanly beat Yokozuna the next night? All of the above are no.

Yokozuna cheated Bret Hart, and then when trying to cheat Hogan, his sneak attack backfired and Hogan took advantage. How that can be considered a burial is beyond me.

Vader: Before Hogan came along, Vader was the baddest motherfucker around, and if he hit you with the powerbomb, you were pretty much dead. The one time Hogan got hit with it, he immediately sat up. That not only buried Vader, but anyone else who took that and sold it properly, basically saying, in a kayfabe sense, that they were weak. Is it any surprise that Vader's American career never recovered from that?

Yeah, it's not like he was main-eventing Summerslam 1996 or anything (if you want to talk about Vader's burial, let's start with HBK). Of course, what you fail to mention is how Vader beat the crap out of Hogan during most of their matches (not to mention beating down Hogan at the end of Superbrawl), which makes Vader look good. But I guess we can't be bothered with accuracy, when blind hatred will do just fine, right?

Sting: Starrcade 97. I don't need to say anything else.

No, you don't, because you are completely wrong. Not only did Sting beat Hogan, WCW had built an entire year's worth of storylines for Sting, just for Sting to show up out of shape and on drugs.

Don't get me wrong, Sting is behind only Bret Hart on my all-time favorite list, but when you have an entire year's worth of main-event storylines built up for you, the least you can do is be in shape for the match. Sting wasn't, and STILL got the victory.

How badly it must suck for you to be so wrong.

HBK: I don't care what you say, if you're making a guest appearance at a PPV, and can't even be bothered to stick around to properly build up the feud, you should not go over the guy who's actually in the company.

You're wrong. BADLY wrong. And I've already stated why. But even if you think HBK should have gone over Hogan, please explain how the match was a burial. Was HBK suddenly less popular? Was he seen as less of a main-eventer? Or was he main-eventing the PPV in a title match, just two Raw PPVs later?

Psst, here's a hint. He was in the main-event title match, just two Raw PPVs later. Please explain how that was a burial.

Orton: Same as above, but for different reasons. Orton needed the rub of beating Hogan and he needed it badly. He was stuck in the middle of nowhere since his loss of the World Title (besides his feud with Undertaker), and beating Hogan could finally put him in the main event permanently. Instead, Hogan goes over, and Orton is still in limbo for the next year.

Again you prove your idiocy, and your inability to read.

Orton had just gotten back from a SUSPENSION! Do you know what that word means? He was suspended for unprofessional conduct. When he came back at One Night Stand, Kurt Angle literally made him look like a jobber. Kurt Angle BURIED Orton. He was slapping him upside the head, for Christ's sake.

The feud with Hogan is what got Orton back on track and back in the fold. One year later, Orton was World Champion. Hogan didn't bury Orton, he put Orton over big time.

The fact you are too blind to see it doesn't change the fact it's true. Putting someone over is not just about losing to them, it's about how they come out after the feud. And Orton went in being made to look like a little girl to Kurt Angle, and came out on a World title track.

Shall I go on, or is this enough?

Please do go on, I love making you look stupid.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Also, Zero, Vader is the ONLY man Hogan had kick out of the leg drop after a ONE count. The only other men to kick out of the leg drop - Yokozuna (2 count), Sid Justice (2 count), and any other names truly escape me.

 

[ZeroVX]

You defeated yourself. Thanks.

Way to read the rest of the sentence. How in the hell was the "23 Tag Champs" remark NOT directed at the Dudleys?

So...it's Hogan's fault McMahon booked Hogan to beat Yokozuna?

Considering Hogan got in his ear about Bret being "too small" and "not believable as a main eventer", then yeah, it is.

But to answer your question...how is it a burial? Did Hogan say anything about Hart? Did he no-sell Hart? Did Hart lose cleanly to Yokozuna and then Hogan cleanly beat Yokozuna the next night? All of the above are no.

Yokozuna cheated Bret Hart, and then when trying to cheat Hogan, his sneak attack backfired and Hogan took advantage. How that can be considered a burial is beyond me.

Lack of a rematch. Hogan didn't give Hart the rematch at Summerslam despite there being plans to do so. I believe I already explained this.

Yeah, it's not like he was main-eventing Summerslam 1996 or anything (if you want to talk about Vader's burial, let's start with HBK).

Did I say HBK didn't bury Vader? No, I didn't. In fact, the subject of HBK burying anyone never came up. Huh. How strange.

Of course, what you fail to mention is how Vader beat the crap out of Hogan during most of their matches (not to mention beating down Hogan at the end of Superbrawl), which makes Vader look good. But I guess we can't be bothered with accuracy, when blind hatred will do just fine, right?

And Hogan still won. No matter how many times Vader beat Hogan to a pulp, Hogan came out on top. You'll probably argue that that's not burial, but what, does Vader not get at least one win over Hogan? How exactly does that make him look good?

No, you don't, because you are completely wrong. Not only did Sting beat Hogan, WCW had built an entire year's worth of storylines for Sting, just for Sting to show up out of shape and on drugs.

Yeah, Sting beat Hogan. It was just after Hogan beat Sting, in the main event of WCW's biggest PPV, when there was so much heat on Hogan and the expected result was to finally lose, after Hogan beat Sting down without letting him get any offense in, and then after a supposed "fast count" from the ref, which really wasn't fast, and then only after Bret Hart came in and restarted the match (because he could apparently do that).

And I'd like to know where you heard this drugs story.

Don't get me wrong, Sting is behind only Bret Hart on my all-time favorite list, but when you have an entire year's worth of main-event storylines built up for you, the least you can do is be in shape for the match. Sting wasn't, and STILL got the victory.

See above. This just makes your later statement that much worse.

You're wrong. BADLY wrong. And I've already stated why. But even if you think HBK should have gone over Hogan, please explain how the match was a burial. Was HBK suddenly less popular? Was he seen as less of a main-eventer? Or was he main-eventing the PPV in a title match, just two Raw PPVs later?

Psst, here's a hint. He was in the main-event title match, just two Raw PPVs later. Please explain how that was a burial.

It was a burial in the fact that Hogan won at all. Like I said, you don't come into a company for a one-off appearance, don't even bother to show up to properly build up the feud (since his reality show was just SO important), and then turn around and say "no, I'm going over". That's a perfect burial of HBK, who had to turn heel to make the feud work, and was the only thing keeping it going. Since, you know, Hogan wasn't around.

Orton had just gotten back from a SUSPENSION! Do you know what that word means? He was suspended for unprofessional conduct. When he came back at One Night Stand, Kurt Angle literally made him look like a jobber. Kurt Angle BURIED Orton. He was slapping him upside the head, for Christ's sake.

Again, no mention of Kurt Angle before now. Interesting.

The feud with Hogan is what got Orton back on track and back in the fold. One year later, Orton was World Champion. Hogan didn't bury Orton, he put Orton over big time.

Yeah, one year later. Imagine if he beat him. Yes, he came off of a suspension, but again, you don't appear for one PPV and don't put anyone over. That's unprofessional, and since Hogan was the biggest deal in wrestling (and in some ways still is), he should know better.

The fact you are too blind to see it doesn't change the fact it's true. Putting someone over is not just about losing to them, it's about how they come out after the feud.

And you say this after trying to defend Hogan's treatment of Vader. Vader never won a world title in America after his feud with Hogan, and besides his one match with HBK, I don't think he ever got another world title shot. Yeah, he clearly helped him there.

Please do go on, I love making you look stupid.

Please continue running your mouth. I love showing people how incredibly arrogant you are.

 

[Slyfox696]

Way to read the rest of the sentence.

Oh, I did read the rest of it. But when you admit it wasn't a burial, then what's the point of continuing? You made my point for me. Thanks.

Considering Hogan got in his ear about Bret being "too small" and "not believable as a main eventer", then yeah, it is.

Whether or not that's true, doesn't change the fact it wasn't on TV. And since Hogan's comments were regarding what should be said on TV, this doesn't really matter, now does it?

Lack of a rematch. Hogan didn't give Hart the rematch at Summerslam despite there being plans to do so. I believe I already explained this.

Lack of a rematch? How does that bury Hart? In fact, how can you have a rematch, when you don't even have a first match? How dumb are you?

Hogan didn't beat Hart, he beat Yokozuna after Yokozuna cheated Hart and had a misfire on trying to cheat Hogan. You can't have a rematch, without a first match. And losing a title to a heel by cheating is hardly considered a burial, especially back in those days.

Did I say HBK didn't bury Vader? No, I didn't.

Did I say you didn't? Or are you just getting overly defensive and trying to change the scope of the argument because you know you're getting destroyed in this one?

In fact, the subject of HBK burying anyone never came up. Huh. How strange.

You were talking about Vader being buried and his American career was never the same, and I mentioned that Vader was main-eventing Summerslam 1996. Which was against HBK, which is where the REAL burial of Vader's American career took place.

But I guess flow of conversation is just too much for you. I'll try to tone it back a bit.

And Hogan still won.

Which has nothing to do with a burial.

No matter how many times Vader beat Hogan to a pulp, Hogan came out on top. You'll probably argue that that's not burial, but what, does Vader not get at least one win over Hogan? How exactly does that make him look good?

How does it bury him? Your argument is that Hogan buried an untold number of wrestlers. It's not my job to explain how Vader looked good, it's your job to show that Vader suffered, and you can't do that.

Especially after what IC25 said:

Also, Zero, Vader is the ONLY man Hogan had kick out of the leg drop after a ONE count. The only other men to kick out of the leg drop - Yokozuna (2 count), Sid Justice (2 count), and any other names truly escape me.

I didn't remember this, but if it's true (and given IC's man crush on Vader, I imagine it is) this pretty much destroys your argument on Vader.

Yeah, Sting beat Hogan.

And then beat Hogan again at Superbrawl. Two wins over Hogan...sounds like a burial to me...

And I'd like to know where you heard this drugs story.

I believe it was Bischoff's book.

See above. This just makes your later statement that much worse.

Huh? You're not even making sense now. But yeah, I think it's Bischoff's book where he mentioned Sting's condition. Not to mention the fact Sting himself has talked many times about his addiction to painkillers, and even does a speaking tour about it.

It was a burial in the fact that Hogan won at all.

Talk about grasping for straws at this point. By the way, you didn't answer my question. Was HBK less popular after his feud with Hogan? Was he seen as less of a main-eventer? Or was he wrestling for the title just two PPVs later?

Feel free to answer.

Again, no mention of Kurt Angle before now. Interesting.

Yeah, I didn't mention him before now.

And conveniently forget the fact Orton had just come back from a 60 day unprofessional conduct suspension, and had just been made to look like a jobber to Kurt Angle.

One year after his feud with Hogan, Orton was champion. That's called Hogan putting another talent over.

Oh wait, I mentioned him 70 posts ago? Guess that makes you wrong...again. You must be getting used to this by now.

Yeah, one year later. Imagine if he beat him.

Why should he have beat him? How would that have been punishment for Orton if he gets to come back from suspension, just to beat the greatest wrestler in history? Orton STILL got a 3 count, and the false victory. What more can you possibly want?

Yes, he came off of a suspension, but again, you don't appear for one PPV and don't put anyone over.

Hogan DID put Orton over, that's what I'm telling you. How can you be so stupid as to think the only way to put another wrestler over is by losing to them? That's just asinine. Using your theory, Hart didn't put over Austin at WM 13. Is that what you're saying?

The fact of the matter is you don't have to beat someone to get put over. When you get a three count and the false finish victory over the greatest wrestler ever, not to mention the weeks of RKOs, that's called a rub. And even if you don't think Orton was put over, you CERTAINLY can't say he was buried since he was World Champion just one year later.

Your understanding of "buried" is as bad as your understanding of "putting over".

And you say this after trying to defend Hogan's treatment of Vader. Vader never won a world title in America after his feud with Hogan, and besides his one match with HBK, I don't think he ever got another world title shot. Yeah, he clearly helped him there.

Wow, you're dumb.

The fact Vader was main-eventing the second biggest PPV in the WWF roughly one year later clearly shows Hogan didn't bury Vader. And again, if Vader never got another title shot after his match with HBK, then that is more proof of who REALLY buried Vader. And because you're too simple-minded to understand, I'll explain it in more detail for you.

After Hogan: Vader gets title shot at second biggest WWF PPV.

After HBK: Vader never gets close to the title again.


Do you see the difference? Do you see what a REAL burial does to another wrestler?

Please continue running your mouth. I love showing people how incredibly arrogant you are.

Oh, you're way to late for that, everyone already knows. Pretty certain I'm the one who told them.


Of course, it doesn't change the fact that I'm RIGHT, which is what is really bothering you here. I would say that I'm burying you right now, but I don't think anyone here really saw you as much more than a comedy jobber anyways.