His Best Feud: Razor Ramon/Scott Hall

[The Brain]

Here we are for the third installment for the best feud topic. I can assure you that Rick Rude will not be #1 this time. We’re going to jump into the mid 90’s and discuss one of the biggest stars of the WWF new generation: Razor Ramon. A lot of people agreed with my opinions on the first two threads, but I think this one will cause more debate. Razor had a lot of feuds, but there doesn’t seem to be a clear #1 choice. You could probably go four or five different ways. Also since I’m a WWF/E guy my list will not include anyone from his WCW days. I’m sure a lot of people will include some WCW feuds on their lists. Here’s my list from his WWF days:

By the way, when making a top ten list you’re covering pretty much every feud a guy has had. There are those who have been with the company long enough to have more than ten feuds, but I haven’t discussed anyone with that kind of longevity yet.

10. Bret Hart
9. Randy Savage
8. Ted Dibiase
7. Irwin R. Schyster
6. Dean Douglas
5. The 1 2 3 Kid
4. Diesel
3. Shawn Michaels
2. Goldust
1. Jeff Jarrett

Let the debate begin. I did not come to the conclusion of Jarrett easily. When I brought up Jake and Warrior there were at least two guys that jumped out as a #1 possibility. When I thought of Razor I thought of a bunch of #2 guys, but nobody jumped off the page as #1. I chose Jarrett because for some reason he stands out as a natural rival for Razor. These two characters just seemed like they would have a natural hatred for each other. This feud brought Jarrett to a new level. Jarrett had been in the WWF for about a year when this feud began. He looked good, but seemed stuck in the lower mid card. Razor put Jarrett over cleanly(debatable) at Royal Rumble 95 and put Jarrett on the map. I don’t have many examples of specific incidents that made this a great feud. It was just two stars who developed a rivalry and put on a good series of matches trading the IC title back and forth.

I know my case seems weak as I’m not completely sold on my #1 choice myself. I came close to picking Goldust. I know we all think attitude started sometime in 1997, but Goldust was laying the groundwork in late 95 and Razor was his first target. I believe Razor was the original opponent for Goldust at WrestleMania XII. Had that match taken place I’m sure Goldust would have been my #1 pick. I’d like to put Savage higher. This seemed like a good feud, but I don’t recall ever seeing a singles match between the two. Michaels gave Razor his best matches, but that doesn’t mean it was the best feud. I’m sure I could be easily swayed to change my mind. Did I get this one right? At least for the new generation years? Let me have your feedback.

 

[NDN Souljaa]

Yeah I think you got it right, but only by default. I say that only because, as you said, he spent only about 4 years with the company and didnt have enough time to develop several more lengthy feuds.

Him and JJ had a bunch of "controversial" endings to their IC matches, which eventually led to a ladder match where Razor became, I believe the first ever 3 time Intercontinental Champion (my how times change ). This basically ensured his place is WWE history, whether or not he won the big one. Though he never did, I believe his matches with Jeff Jarrett truly made him a relatively popular household name, even more so than HBK did. Because in regards to their showdown at WMX people said that "Shawn went out there and had a match with a ladder...there just happened to be someone else in the ring with him at the time." But with Jarrett, he really shined.
I would however put HBK ahead of Goldust in the rankings simply because the matches they had, put both of them on the figurative map. Plus he had a match against HBK and JJ at Survivor Seriesin 94, and not Goldust. Goldust would have been ranked number 1, had it not been for the drugs or whatever that led to the cancellation of their WM encounter and Razor's eventual departure from the company. I would even put Diesel ahead of Goldust because they traded the IC title back and forth a couple times and even faced him at Survivor Series twice.
DiBiase should be higher than Douglas as well because DiBiase put him over in his final match, and that alone should give Ted a couple extra points.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Goldust.

At the time, Goldust had just come into the company and he immediately set his sights on the Intercontinental Championship and Razor. Razor really didn't take Goldust seriously, so Goldust went ahead and made sure Razor did just that. He went ahead and started stalking Razor, sending him love letters, cards, and flowers. This also set the tone for the Goldust character, with him playing mind games and doing actions to his opponents that would creep them out during the match. This was also during the mid 90s, where homosexuality was still a taboo subject for the most part. He did his part in making Razor uncomfortable, and he wound up winning the Intercontinental Championship from him.

There was something about that feud that I found so engrossing, way moreso than Jeff Jarrett or any other feud Razor had. The Goldust feud made it seem like he was taking his feud with Razor to a personal level, and the feud would have had an awesome payoff at Wrestlemania that year if Hall didn't go ahead and get himself suspended.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

The 123 Kid feud always comes to mind when I think of Razor, because it was so freaking unexpected. The kid was just one of those jobbers, brought in...and then he wasn't. It was nuts. It may not have been his best feud, but I thought it was interesting and creative.

 

[NSL]

You're all wrong, and I'm sad this isn't on there.

His feud with Kevin Nash for the second half of 1998 was great. It was actually booked right, the promos were good, and surprisingly, their matches looked very good on TV. It was based around Hall's drinking problem, which he was actually going through as it was shown on TV, and you could feel the real emotion between both of them.

His feud with 1-2-3 Kid was horrible, and lasted way too long. The rest were either forgettable, or not nearly as good as the one with Nash.

 

[NSL]

Hey Chico, you're wrong on this one. This thread is based on Razor Ramon and not Scott Hall. Hall was in WCW in 1998 which would eliminate the chances of Razor's best feud being at this time.

Where does it say that in the OP?

Either way, I stand by what I said. His feud with Nash in WCW was better than anything eh did in the WWF. His entire feud with HBK is remember because of one match, and outside of that, was largely boring. His feud with DiBiase was well past DiBiase's "expiration date" in the WWF. For crying out loud, he wasn't even wearing the same gear he was when he was important.

 

[davy190260]

Good point my friend, please accept my sincerest apologies
I personally never saw his feud with Nash as I didnt have any access to WCW tv at that time but it sounds like a feud I wouldve enjoyed. From what I saw I would have to say the feud with goldust was brilliant. I remember watching Royal Rumble 96 and being amazed when Goldust won the IC title from Razor and what made it even better was when the legendary Mr Perfect said "Now Goldust has all the gold". It gave the match and the title a bit more meaning at a time when the belt still meant something anyway.

 

[The Brain]

Where does it say that in the OP?

You're right. As the OP I never limited this to the WWF. You could go all the way back to the AWA if you want. My choices were all from WWF simply because I did not watch WCW. I watched a little, but not enough to form a real opinion. I don't mind someone opening my eyes to things I am unaware of. In fact that's kind of the point of the thread. From what you say it sounds like the feud with Nash was the best. I just didn't know enough about it to judge it. I knew there would be a lot of different opinions on this one.

 

[BernacK6]

I think his best feud was with HBK and Diesel in 1994. The trio traded the IC Title back and forth over the year, starting with the classic ladder match at WM10, Diesel's unlikely IC Title Victory on Superstars, and the fantastic rematch at Summerslam 1994 with Walter Payton in Razor's corner leading to the break-up of Diesel and HBK and Diesel's Main Event Push. Back in 1994, when there were only 5 PPVs, the WWF really built their stories up and this story was a great one. I always hated Double J and have always thought he was overrated, and his feud with Goldust wasn't during the prime of Razor's run with WWF, so I never considered these to be better than his feud with HBK and Diesel.

 

[OWEN-ing It All]

This is a very good question.

I have to vote for HBK on the sole fact that although Razor was great, his feuds weren't really that memorable. His promos and matches were solid. But his feud with HBK produced the most in every sense of the word. Matches, innovation, it elevated both of them and also tied in with his feud with Diesel. So I would say by default, my pick is HBK.

Close second would be 1-2-3 Kid, I really liked that storyline. Watching him wrestle week in and week out on tv as, lightning kid, Minneapolis kid, 1-2-3 kid, etc etc. (Was it Minneapolis kid or Minnesota kid or both? Can't be sure on that) But it was a great storyline I thought and was done really well. The 25,000 match and kid stealing the money and jetting out of the arena. Then their eventual partnership/friendship.

 

[The Brain]

I think his best feud was with HBK and Diesel in 1994. The trio traded the IC Title back and forth over the year, starting with the classic ladder match at WM10, Diesel's unlikely IC Title Victory on Superstars, and the fantastic rematch at Summerslam 1994 with Walter Payton in Razor's corner leading to the break-up of Diesel and HBK and Diesel's Main Event Push. Back in 1994, when there were only 5 PPVs, the WWF really built their stories up and this story was a great one. I always hated Double J and have always thought he was overrated, and his feud with Goldust wasn't during the prime of Razor's run with WWF, so I never considered these to be better than his feud with HBK and Diesel.

I'll agree with that. If you combined HBK and Diesel as one feud that was Razor's best. Individually I think I'd stick with Jarrett. Tough call though.

 

[GeminiJ13]

I would have to say that Goldust and Razor had the best feud! They were the reason I started watching RAW and Goldust created something unique. That feud was well written. Hall has had better matches, but this was my favorite storyline Hall was ever involved in, besides NWO.

 

[CKDaimen]

There is no way Jeff Jarrett is #1. Jarrett may be tied with HBK but I don't see how you can put Jarrett over revolutionary fueds like the ones he had with Goldust and the 1-2-3 Kid. Hell, Jarrett is barely over Larry Zbysko, who isn't even on the list.

Why the 1-2-3- Kid is so low is beyond me. To this day, I honestly believe that the 1-2-3 Kid's first victory over Razor Ramon was the most unpredictable moment I've ever witnessed. At least as far as match outcomes go. That fued lasted like a year long, and for the first few months it was must see TV. Would they wrestle again? And if so, would the Kid actually win again? Come on, the $10,000 to wrestle him again? Then the Kid taking the money in the middle of the match and hauling ass?? It was classic! That fued was very personal, very unpredictable, and out of all of his fueds, it was the most "must see TV". Would the Kid become a star? Or will he go away as soon as Razor beats him? There were so many questions. You probably won't understand unless you saw jobbers losing every week on TV for so many years prior to that match. Many people might rewrite history or they might hesitate to say this is his #1 fued just because it's Sean Waltman, but if you really look at that fued in 1993, that was the best storyline in the entire company for months, and they wrestled all around the world and at several PPVs. I can see Goldust being #2 just because after the Royal Rumble the fued died down. But that was also must see TV. In no way or at any point was Jeff Jarrett vs. Razor Ramon must see TV. Yes, they were evenly matched...more so than Razor/1-2-3 Kid....but as far as energy, and entertainment value, and longevity, it has to be the 1-2-3 Kid. Anybody who says otherwise must not have been watching back then and must only know about old PPVs and not old Raws and Superstars....because if they did, they would know that his fued with the 1-2-3 Kid was classic. I'm not saying that about you, Brain, but I think there should be more votes for the Kid. And once again, Jarrett at #1? Oh hell no

 

[The Brain]

I knew this one would cause the most debate. I admitted in my original post that my case for Jarrett was weak. I also admitted I was not convinced he was the right choice. In fact I said it could go four or five different ways and I think a lot of people have a lot of different good choices.

There is no way Jeff Jarrett is #1. Jarrett may be tied with HBK but I don't see how you can put Jarrett over revolutionary fueds like the ones he had with Goldust and the 1-2-3 Kid. Hell, Jarrett is barely over Larry Zbysko, who isn't even on the list.

Why the 1-2-3- Kid is so low is beyond me. To this day, I honestly believe that the 1-2-3 Kid's first victory over Razor Ramon was the most unpredictable moment I've ever witnessed. At least as far as match outcomes go. That fued lasted like a year long, and for the first few months it was must see TV. Would they wrestle again? And if so, would the Kid actually win again? Come on, the $10,000 to wrestle him again? Then the Kid taking the money in the middle of the match and hauling ass?? It was classic! That fued was very personal, very unpredictable, and out of all of his fueds, it was the most "must see TV". Would the Kid become a star? Or will he go away as soon as Razor beats him? There were so many questions. You probably won't understand unless you saw jobbers losing every week on TV for so many years prior to that match. Many people might rewrite history or they might hesitate to say this is his #1 fued just because it's Sean Waltman, but if you really look at that fued in 1993, that was the best storyline in the entire company for months, and they wrestled all around the world and at several PPVs. I can see Goldust being #2 just because after the Royal Rumble the fued died down. But that was also must see TV. In no way or at any point was Jeff Jarrett vs. Razor Ramon must see TV. Yes, they were evenly matched...more so than Razor/1-2-3 Kid....but as far as energy, and entertainment value, and longevity, it has to be the 1-2-3 Kid. Anybody who says otherwise must not have been watching back then and must only know about old PPVs and not old Raws and Superstars....because if they did, they would know that his fued with the 1-2-3 Kid was classic. I'm not saying that about you, Brain, but I think there should be more votes for the Kid. And once again, Jarrett at #1? Oh hell no

You have some good points here CK and I definitely respect your opinion. The Kid is a good choice for #1. I have to admit I was more focused on the late 95 early 96 feud (the one that climaxed with that crybaby match) and did not give enough consideration to the 93 feud. With that said, your facts are a little off. The Kid beat Razor for the first time in May. Razor turned face and was feuding with Dibiase by SummerSlam only three months later. The feud did not come close to lasting a year. Also Razor and the Kid did not wrestle against each other in any pay per views in 1993. You still make a good case, but I think you’re remembering this as more than it was. Although I was remembering it for less than it was and underrated the 93 feud.

 

[MattMoses]

Pretty tough choice, and not for the better. For a guy who has had a career spanning twenty five years or so, I can't for the life in me think of a really great feud he had. He did some pretty good stuff in his early WWF days with the likes of Michaels and Hart, but those are more memorable for a great match they had, not a feud. I will say though, they really could have made a go with a Hall/Goldberg feud. The set-up was perfect, but there was maybe three weeks of build-up. The ladder taser match they did have at Souled Out '99 was by far and away Hall's best match in WCW. For some reason though, they left that feud after that match. It had so much potential.

His feud with Kevin Nash for the second half of 1998 was great. It was actually booked right, the promos were good, and surprisingly, their matches looked very good on TV. It was based around Hall's drinking problem, which he was actually going through as it was shown on TV, and you could feel the real emotion between both of them.

I liked this. Two of the more memorable moments being when Hall puked all over Bischoff on live TV, then Nash coming to his aid and Hall refusing it. And the time the Wolfpac went to local bars and clubs looking for Hall and then Nash beating the shit out of him with Hall ultimately ending up with his head down a toilet. Though if I recall, they actually didn't have any one-on-one matches on TV, the only time they met in singles in the ring was at Halloween Hovoc, where the match was a little too one-sided to be anything above mediocre. As far as emotion goes though, the short feud with Nash was defintiely his best.

 

[CKDaimen]

I knew this one would cause the most debate. I admitted in my original post that my case for Jarrett was weak. I also admitted I was not convinced he was the right choice. In fact I said it could go four or five different ways and I think a lot of people have a lot of different good choices.



You have some good points here CK and I definitely respect your opinion. The Kid is a good choice for #1. I have to admit I was more focused on the late 95 early 96 feud (the one that climaxed with that crybaby match) and did not give enough consideration to the 93 feud. With that said, your facts are a little off. The Kid beat Razor for the first time in May. Razor turned face and was feuding with Dibiase by SummerSlam only three months later. The feud did not come close to lasting a year. Also Razor and the Kid did not wrestle against each other in any pay per views in 1993. You still make a good case, but I think you’re remembering this as more than it was. Although I was remembering it for less than it was and underrated the 93 feud.

While it's possible I did get a tad carried away....I really gotta say that's #1. It did not last a year uninterrupted, but they certainly had on and off fueding going on because the fued in 1993 was so major that they (especially the 1-2-3- Kid) was synonymous with the other. You can't say that about Jarrett or the others. When a fued define a man's career....even to this day, Sean Waltman is most remembered by that victory and that fued...when something like that happens, there is something to be said for the fued. Overall, I just think it's the must watch TV factor that fued brought and the great writing that made the fued special. Maybe we'll agree on the fourth installment like we did the first two...but in your defense, you admit weaknesses in your Jarrett pick, so you're 2-1-0 in my book, lol. One draw.

 

[byrnside]

Realistically either HBK or Jeff Jarrett are better choices. The story line with Michaels' was just classic, and his feud with Jarrett had most of us entertained for the better part of a year. But, I think for nostalgic purposes I'm going with the 1-2-3 Kid here. Something about his feud with the Kid really made wrestling interesting for me. Hell, the Kid was the first person I'd seen do a moonsault as far as I can remember. When he beat Razor, I just remember thinking "oh shit! did that just happen?!" At the time, I wasn't smart enough to realize wrestling was scripted, but I was old enough to know that an unknown guy like Sean Waltman wasn't supposed to win. Then they had the $1,000 challenge and you knew it couldn't happen twice, and just when you thought it was over, and Razor had it in the bag, the 1-2-3 Kid stole the sack of Razor's money and bolted in a car. I'd never seen anything like that before. Even years later after Razor turned face and they reconciled their differences, somehow Ted DiBiase convinced the Kid that Razor had been holding him back the last couple years. The 1-2-3 Kid cost Razor the IC strap at the '96 Royal Rumble, and they had that [now realizing how ridiculous this was] Cry Baby Match at one of the In Your House's. I actually watched that match the other day, and though it wasn't bad, we were actually supposed to believe that the Kid was knocked out from a Razor's Edge to the point where Razor actually put a diaper on him? Good stuff either way, and that's probably why this is my top choice.