HHH/FIRST EVER UNDISPUTED CHAMP?

[kingdirrtysouth1]

Would Triple H have been booked differently than Jericho if he had been the first guy to hold the WWF & WCW titles at the same time? I believe so. First of all, Jericho was treated as an afterthought while Steph vs HHH was the real feud. The Undisputed title just happen to be on the line & Jericho just happened to be the guy holding it. While Stephanie was off doing what ever she was doing, Jericho was stuck watching, walking, & cleaning up after the damn family dog. He did all that while carrying his precious titles over his shoulders. Eventually, and by that I mean the very first time Jericho defended his title against Hunter a few short months later, he lost. I know Hunter lost a month later at Backlash, but that was because WWE was banking on Hulkamania nostalgia, which the fans seemed to stop caring about soon after Hogan became champ. Plus Hunter's baby face run became dead in the water as he turned heel that July on HBK. He was always better as a violent heel anyway which brings me to the second reason I believe he would have been booked differently than Jericho: If Triple H had never gotten injured during the Power Trip days, he would have become the first ever Undisputed Champ as "The Cerebral Assassin" with Stephanie by his side instead of as an enemy. During the invasion, WCW/ECW would have been made to look even weaker & Booker T would have been jobbed out to him instead of the Rock. Given the fact that Stephanie "purchased" ECW during the Invasion, Triple H(Terra Ryzing-WCW) would have been the one to turn on the WWF & join the Alliance instead of Austin. This would have been after Triple H took the World Title from Booker T, of course. That would have served a couple of purposes: #1. It would broken up the Power Trip(who would've been holding a world title a piece) & #2: it would have allowed HHH to remain a heel while turning Stone Cold into the conquering baby face the WWF needed to fight off the invading forces. Remember the pop Austin got when he took out the Alliance the Raw before the ppv? After the invasion was done, Hunter would have been the guy who defeated the Rock & Austin at Vengeance instead of Jericho. He would have been propped as the biggest bad ass in the history of pro wrestling & could have been the one to face Hogan(who could have returned as a face) at Wrestlemania instead of the Rock. Even if that didn't happen, he damn sure wouldn't have been cleaning up dog shit. He would been a driving force in whatever feud he was in instead of an afterthought. He also probably would have retained the title at Mania X8 like he did at Mania 2000. My point is, HHH would have been booked as a strong Undisputed Champ instead of Stephanie's lackey who just happened to be holding two belts.

Any thoughts?

 

[Zuper-Man]

I think it wouldve played out soooo much better with Triple H instead of Jericho, not bc I like Triple H more, but bc he fit into the storyline so perfectly. They couldve given him the WCW title and mega stroke over the alliance bc he was after all Stephanie's hubby. Along with Steve Austin as the WWE champ, the Power Trip couldve reached new heights and given the WWE superstars and Vince hell. Considering both Trips and Austin's egos, they would be bound to feud, with Austin slowly going over as a face. That feud couldve manifested at the invasion PPV, where an already-eliminated Triple H backstabs Austin and costs him the match, much like Angle did at the actual PPV. Being that trips theoretically was already WCW champ, on the following night on Raw, Vince would try to award Triple H the WWE title, making Trips the first ever unsdiputed WWE champ, only to be interrupted by Flair, who of course was the consortium to Steph and Shanes former power in WWE, who would then decalre himself partners with Vince and. Steve Austin as still WWE champion. Austin would then come out to a HUGE pop, making him an official face again and beat the hell out of Vince and Triple H. Of course, at the next PPV, they would have a unification bout, where due to outside interference by shane and steph (once again making the ever-dysfunctional mcmahon family whole again), Trips would win, making him the undisputed champ. Austin would then do what he does best: chase for the title, whereas Trips would further establish himself as a mega heel by screwing Austin time and time again out of the title by cheating. Its irrevelevent whether or not Austin goes over, bc Triple H would still be vehemently hated and a far more relevant heel champ than Jericho was. I talk too much lol.

 

[SSJPhenom]

No doubt it would have been better played with HHH as opposed to Jericho, however, HHH remains uneffected by this now in his career. Jericho, on the other hand, has to use this as his only claim to fame.

Look at it. Everytime Jericho comes out and calls the fans hypocritical or whatever, he goes into his list of achievments and pulls out the ole, "I was the first Undisputed Champion in WWE history," card. I mean, to be honest with you, that is really the only title run of Jericho's that I completely remember. He is so boring as the champ that, besides his most recent run, I really can't remember any of the others off hand. So imagine Jericho's career without him being able to say, "I am the only man in history to beat Stone Cold and The Rock in the same night." I don't think that he would be where he is at today.

WWE would have benefited more, at that time, to have had HHH as the first Undisputed Champion. In the long run, however, HHH's career would be no different now if he was the first. WWE did the right thing, IMO.

That is all!

 

[classicviolence]

HHH's legacy overall dose not mean too much since is is a McMahon by marriage. Insiders and the boys really dont respect him in a way that a "13 time champ" should be respected. Even if he was the 1st Undisputed Champ, it would mean that he slept his way into that as well.

Jericho is the 1st Undisputed Champ in the modern era. (ROH and TNA didnt exist yet) Jericho is also a 9 time IC champ, 1st man to hold the Undisputed title and tag titles. The final WCW champion, Grand Slam Champion and a 5 time Champ overall. Not to mention the 1st WCW crusierweight champion to win a World title.

He has a lot of credible accomplishments under his belt and is WWE's true MVP. He didn't have to sleep his way into his legacy unlike HHH. Overall, his legacy MEANS more than HHH simply because of the Undisputed Title run, which is a major thing.

To get back on topic, I dont think that the storyline would have been better unless you like HHH being the focal point of RAW every week, and it got old after 2000. The McMahon-Helmsley era and Evolution were is best days by far. Every thing else was BORING and force fed to make him the top guy.

 

[Super Crazy]

I agree with this. But Triple H is totally uneffected by that moment in time. He came back better and stronger then ever and has dominant ever since then. The WWE would be no different in my eyes though if HHH was the first Undisputed Champion.

I agree with Undertaker's #1 fan though :

Jericho, on the other hand, has to use this as his only claim to fame.

Look at it. Everytime Jericho comes out and calls the fans hypocritical or whatever, he goes into his list of achievments and pulls out the ole, "I was the first Undisputed Champion in WWE history," card. I mean, to be honest with you, that is really the only title run of Jericho's that I completely remember. He is so boring as the champ that, besides his most recent run, I really can't remember any of the others off hand. So imagine Jericho's career without him being able to say, "I am the only man in history to beat Stone Cold and The Rock in the same night." I don't think that he would be where he is at today.

Jericho's career would probably be totally different now if he were never the 1st Undisputed Champ though I think. He would have become second fiddle to everything and no one would really care IMO.

Also may I note the reason Jericho went after the Rock was because of their tension/mini-feud while trying to take out the Alliance. Therefore I think that if Triple H were never injured and joined the Alliance. That the Rock and Jericho would have still played out the same. As Stone Cold's heel turn did not effect the storyline until they wanted to unify the championships.

 

[Rich]

Where would HHH be if he wasn't with the Boss's Daughter? Would he be where he's at now? Or slightly lower down the WWE pecking order? At 260 lbs he's not one of the standard pushed to the moon big men, and without the relationship with Stephanie he probably wouldn't have the backstage pull that he does.

 

[TheChampionOfTheWorld]

Look at it. Everytime Jericho comes out and calls the fans hypocritical or whatever, he goes into his list of achievments and pulls out the ole, "I was the first Undisputed Champion in WWE history," card. I mean, to be honest with you, that is really the only title run of Jericho's that I completely remember. He is so boring as the champ that, besides his most recent run, I really can't remember any of the others off hand. So imagine Jericho's career without him being able to say, "I am the only man in history to beat Stone Cold and The Rock in the same night." I don't think that he would be where he is at today.

I agree with you that Jericho's title reigns have been unmemorable. But who's fault is that? Jericho is arguably the top performer in the WWE today. He has the rare ability to make just about anyone look good, but for some reason can't get a lengthy title run.

His title runs of 2008 were short, he defeated HBK in a awesome ladder match at No Mercy, then loses the next month to Batista at Cyber Sunday, regains the title and then loses to John Cena at Survivor Series. After a rematch he is basically removed from the title picture.

I just can't figure out why he is booked to look so weak, it is a real injustice to him and the championship. Any good champion is remember for a fued. The fueds that developed Batista and Cena into main eventers were Triple H and JBL, respectively. They both had long fueds with the two after they won the title. It gave both credibility in the main event scene.

Last year, Jericho had a lengthy program with Shawn Michaels, the only problem is there was no title between the two. Their ladder match was the only time a title has been on the line between the two. Even their great match back at Wrestle Mania 19.

If the WWE wants to make someone successful they need a trademark fued, plain and simple.

 

[Mr. Steve]

Where would HHH be if he wasn't with the Boss's Daughter?

At the main event, Rich.

Would he be where he's at now? Or slightly lower down the WWE pecking order?

I got a strong opinion he'd be where he's at now, regardless of who he's married to.

At 260 lbs he's not one of the standard pushed to the moon big men, and without the relationship with Stephanie he probably wouldn't have the backstage pull that he does.

'Taker has backstage pull, as do HBK, Jericho, Orton, Cena and Edge. HHH is no different. In the end his backstage clout means shit if it's shot down by management. A boss may be married to a employee, yeah, but they got to separate their personal life when they go to work.

How come people keep saying this so much? HHH got to where he is on his own. Remember that pop he got in '02 when he got back? And when he won the Rumble that same year? That was on his own, unless I'm wrong and the wife paid off the entire MGS audience to give HHH an instant pop the second the theme song hit.

Just because a guy is married to someone that works backstage doesn't give him automatic clout; on the contrary, he'll get instant heat by people backstage because of the same thing you're saying: he's sleeping his way to the top.

But I'm digressing, of course.

If Triple H had nto been injured and, thus not sat out the Alliance angle, yeah he would have been in the match, and it would have been a 4-way, and he would have won, and be booked to be a strong champion, like Jericho wasn't. From what I see, jericho was treated as the paper champion while HHH got back. They had the match at 'mania, which was a damn good one, IMO, and Hunter won. But it would have gone down the same route as it did, for me.

No doubt it would have been better played with HHH as opposed to Jericho, however, HHH remains uneffected by this now in his career. Jericho, on the other hand, has to use this as his only claim to fame.

Look at it. Everytime Jericho comes out and calls the fans hypocritical or whatever, he goes into his list of achievments and pulls out the ole, "I was the first Undisputed Champion in WWE history," card. I mean, to be honest with you, that is really the only title run of Jericho's that I completely remember. He is so boring as the champ that, besides his most recent run, I really can't remember any of the others off hand. So imagine Jericho's career without him being able to say, "I am the only man in history to beat Stone Cold and The Rock in the same night." I don't think that he would be where he is at today.

WWE would have benefited more, at that time, to have had HHH as the first Undisputed Champion. In the long run, however, HHH's career would be no different now if he was the first. WWE did the right thing, IMO.

That is all!

I respectfully disagree on that, SC. Jericho acts on that fact to get himself to look better than the rest of the WWE roster, which is, to say, the core of the character he's doing now, and doing it excellently. As for him winning titles, you're right. But it's mostly on the fact that I didn't see those matches, though. I remember the undisputed, the intercontinental championship with Chyna, the WH he won at the Scramble, and the unified tag team titles.

it's not exactly something you attribute to him having forgettable reigns. I think it's mostly a question of "how do we keep this character going wit hthe titles?" Now, I'll think he won't have a problem with that, as this "save me" gimmick is great for Jericho.

 

[gregfj2]

The alternative future suggested by dirtysouth scares me. Triple H has enough glory as it is! Triple H as first undisputed champ would squash the newly acquired talent even worse than they already were. People who hated WWF would probably still watch Austin vs their guys, but I doubt that ANY of them would watch their heroes job to Triple H.

I strongly disagree with Jericho's legacy resting on that title only. I have no idea how many weeks or months he's ever held any title. Jericho has great chemistry with almost anyone he ever faces (or heels?), and I truly believe this to be his important market value. I believe the stir he caused upon joining paved the way for the Radicalz and many others. Did anyone see WCW Jericho vs mini-Mysterio? Triple H can only wish he were as funny.

Somehow I'm just not offended as much with Triple H's power or influence in the company. If anything else, from what I've read he makes the product even better with his input. Some backstage reports made me upset with Kennedy's dismissal, but I got over it pretty quick because Ken is such a great guy with or without WWE.

Maybe Triple H helped destroy the Alliance from backstage. I should be pissed, but I'm not. That ship sailed so long ago, and we still have Goldust on tv. The world seems to be spinning just fine. I think both Jericho and Triple H would still have their respective roles in the company no matter how the invasion had played out, because their unique styles were already evolved before that point.

But like I said, SCARY alternate timeline as proposed.

 

[TM Punk]

Let's see here. Before marrying stephanie Triple H was:

3 time WWF Champion
4 time IC Champion
1 time tag team champion
97' King of the Ring winner
"retired" Mick Foley
and was the only heel to retain the WWF Championship at Wrestlemania

So for anyone that thinks he wouldn't have the spot that he does now, or he wouldn't be a main eventer if he wasn't banging the boss's daughter. Look at the stuff he did before 2002. HE WAS ALREADY A MAIN EVENTER!!!!

geez

 

[Spillz3000]

I agree Triple H was a main eventer well before he married Stephanie, but you can't deny Triple H does use his new found backstage power for personal use as well. Is it as much as we think? Who knows but you can't deny he tips things his way whenever he gets the chance. I do believe that McMahon does stop him sometimes but I wouldn't say it's much. Lets take a look at last year's Summerslam. Triple H Vs. The Great Khali are you kidding me? Can anybody tell me that Khali was still a credible Main Eventer at that point last year? Khali already started falling to low midcard status by that time but it felt like Triple H wanted to fight him just so he can add beating Khali to his lists of accomplishments. At that time there were way more credible Main Eventers that could have challenge Triple H for the belt such as Jeff Hardy, MVP, Shelton Benjamin, Big Show(a better big man), and shoot even The Brian Kendrick looked like a stronger contender than Khali.

Anyway Triple H would still be a main eventer without Steph probably on a Shawn Michaels or Undertaker level. Hell he might even put over up and comers.

But to the subject at hand. There are so many ways this Alliance storyline could have played out to make it worse or better. First off it would have been nice to actually have more established WCW and ECW starts to make the fued. I don't know I think with what they had the fued played out as good as it can and somebody like Jericho deserved an honor like that. I'm a huge Jericho mark and believes he deserves all of his accolades. Every last one of them!

 

[JBK2008]

It would've been better if HHH was the first champ and not Jericho but the past is the past and it can't be changed. HHH hasn't been affected and Jericho is finally being taken more seriously.

 

[GameOver]

Let's see here. Before marrying stephanie Triple H was:

3 time WWF Champion
4 time IC Champion
1 time tag team champion
97' King of the Ring winner
"retired" Mick Foley
and was the only heel to retain the WWF Championship at Wrestlemania

So for anyone that thinks he wouldn't have the spot that he does now, or he wouldn't be a main eventer if he wasn't banging the boss's daughter. Look at the stuff he did before 2002. HE WAS ALREADY A MAIN EVENTER!!!!

geez

You forgot European champ too LOL
something HBK had never won.

not too mention DX was an intrical part of that era, Austin may have been the headline, but DX vs The Nation and WCW was a huge draw. and who was the principle player in that? Triple H and without him , The Rock and Undertaker, Kane, Austin wouldn't have had anyone to play off of.

and onto the Triple H hate - Hogan was notorious for stepping over everyone to keep his spot at the top yet he's still a god. It's business. or maybe he was banging her as a kid and blamed Randy Savage

Onto the topic

What does it matter who one it, Wrestling isn't real, the stats mean little, when people who clearly don't deserve a world title ie Jeff Hardy can win several times what does that tell ya Geesh

Randy Savage was a top star and he only won 1 Kings Crown, 2 WWF Championships and 1 time IC Champ within the WWF atleast.

Jericho winning the undisputed title was totally unexpected which is unusual in the entertainement form of wrestling. I mean to beat Stone Cold and The Rock in one night has and never will be repeated, if it went to one of the other 3 it woulda been totaly expected.

Funny how some people moan when something/someone unexpected happens yet when it doesn't they blame someone for pulling rank.

as for his legacy being soley based on that achievement, thats bogus
Jericho has won the IC title and unprecedented number of times
plus now he = the average world title wins for all the big names, that being about 5 titles.
and it's something he can keep hashing on for the rest of his days,

He plays the " I get no respect" motto and "I deserve everything handed to me" yet when push comes to shove he gets made to look the fool, It's funny and he plays the character well.

His legacy will be an entertainer who despite his size made it to the top of the no1 company repeatedly and along the way helped others reach there potential and entertained us all, reagadless of whether he was a heel or face.

 

[GameOver]

I agree Triple H was a main eventer well before he married Stephanie, but you can't deny Triple H does use his new found backstage power for personal use as well. Is it as much as we think? Who knows but you can't deny he tips things his way whenever he gets the chance. I do believe that McMahon does stop him sometimes but I wouldn't say it's much. Lets take a look at last year's Summerslam. Triple H Vs. The Great Khali are you kidding me? Can anybody tell me that Khali was still a credible Main Eventer at that point last year? Khali already started falling to low midcard status by that time but it felt like Triple H wanted to fight him just so he can add beating Khali to his lists of accomplishments. At that time there were way more credible Main Eventers that could have challenge Triple H for the belt such as Jeff Hardy, MVP, Shelton Benjamin, Big Show(a better big man), and shoot even The Brian Kendrick looked like a stronger contender than Khali.

Anyway Triple H would still be a main eventer without Steph probably on a Shawn Michaels or Undertaker level. Hell he might even put over up and comers.

But to the subject at hand. There are so many ways this Alliance storyline could have played out to make it worse or better. First off it would have been nice to actually have more established WCW and ECW starts to make the fued. I don't know I think with what they had the fued played out as good as it can and somebody like Jericho deserved an honor like that. I'm a huge Jericho mark and believes he deserves all of his accolades. Every last one of them!

So your proof is where? Everyone who bashes him sais "I know" so you know him personally do you? you are backstage during events and here it from the horses mouth do you? You are bum buddies with Vince and know what he sais too i assume?

There's no proof that it wasn't Vince that has dictated everything which seems to be the common theme, noone else gets final say, seen interviews with Stephanie and Shane and even they say he generally refuses to listen to anyone else when he decides what is going to happen, hence why ECW was buried and why WCW was never kept alive under the WWE banner despite Shane "buying" it and the story writing itself it was dropped almost imediately.

if he had listened to others more often WWE may well have followed a different path. as such I blame Vince for WWE's inadequacies and lazy ass new talent workers who want everything handed to them but don't want to put in any effort. Yet you would have them as your world champs for no reason. and yet people that have busted there ass for a decade and can still put on top matches and segments but apparently are holding everyone back

Face it, Triple has the look of a champion, he lives the business, he is the total package, few others have that same work ethic. regardless, he could come out in the opening match and lose to jobbers and people would still coplain that he was stealing the show by going on first

 

[tsull2121]

Let's see here. Before marrying stephanie Triple H was:

3 time WWF Champion
4 time IC Champion
1 time tag team champion
97' King of the Ring winner
"retired" Mick Foley
and was the only heel to retain the WWF Championship at Wrestlemania

So for anyone that thinks he wouldn't have the spot that he does now, or he wouldn't be a main eventer if he wasn't banging the boss's daughter. Look at the stuff he did before 2002. HE WAS ALREADY A MAIN EVENTER!!!!

geez

yeh, but when did he start DATING steph? let's face it.. levesque sucks big time... if you DONT think that he "found the magic needle" ('roids) after hitting the wwf then youre out of your mind.. look at footage of him as terra ryzing and even as jean paul levesque in wcw.. he's almost cruiserweight size then, and even for the first year or so in wwf he is still 1/8 of what he is now.

before marrying steph doesnt mean anything.. take a look at when they started SLEEPING TOGETHER and youll see when his career took off.

stop living in the past and trying to lpump up an already pumped up roided out freak and let it go.

oh and by the way.. i could get 12 world championships too if i brought a fucking sledgehammer to the ring with me all the time

 

[tsull2121]

You forgot European champ too LOL
something HBK had never won./QUOTE]
\
shawn michaels defeated davey boy smith to win the european championship on september 20th, 1997

 

[Tripleb2k1]

You forgot European champ too LOL
something HBK had never won./QUOTE]
\
shawn michaels defeated davey boy smith to win the european championship on september 20th, 1997

not to mention that Triple H won it from Shawn Michaels

 

[Horseman420]

Go back through history...
WrestleMaina IV - Randy Savage is declared Undisputed Champion
Royal Rumble 1992 - Ric Flair is declared Undisputed Champion
Survivor Series 1998 - The Rock is declared Undisputed Champion
so all of your arguments and whatnot are DISPUTED! don't reply to this because I could give a shit what all of YOU PEOPLE think or say.........have a good one!

 

[travistragic]

Well, obviously this was going to turn into one of these kind of arguments. I don't know how much I want to get involved, but I will say this: HHH is average in the ring, but has a great build. He's decent enough on the mic to develop good feuds even if they rarely turned into decent matches. And he has been part of and contributed to a few great storylines and stunts (the initial drive-thru marriage to Steph, Simu-raping Katie Vick, DX shenanigans, etc.) I don't doubt his place as a "main eventer", in fact, I think he should stay in the main event because the only other people for him to wrestle there on RAW are Orton and Cena anyway and that means I can turn WWE off 15 minutes early and find something else to do with my time.

The problem I think most people have with HHH which I think is hard to really debate is how he stood at the top for nearly an entire decade and consistently took the steam out of up-and-coming guys like Booker T (WM XIX), Jericho (WM X8), and RVD (unforgiven 2002) and, at least for Booker and RVD, seriously held them back from becoming as big as superstars as they should've been.

Some wrestling fans have the Attitude era as their heyday of being a fanboy, some of us who prefer technical wrestling ability and innovative offenses to the "slow-motion muscleman soap opera" aspects of wrestling feel like they had their heyday taken away from them and, I'm sorry and I try not to do it, but it's hard not to blame HHH when he was the face of the guy who kept squashing our faves and remained indestructible at the top of the WWE for half a dozen years. And it's not like we had any other options with WCW and ECW both gone.

I'm glad Jericho won the first ever undisputed title, it's on my short list of things the WWE did right along with Eddie Guerrero's title run, RVD beating Cena at One Night Stand, and Mr. Kennedy winning MITB. And for the record, I could give a fuck if it didn't "fit into the storylines at the time".

 

[666_The_Game_666]

It makes you wonder that if the quad didnt sideline HHH in 2001 he probley would of been first undisputed champ and would of had a good role in the invasion story seeing he was with Steph at the time in storyline. But when he did get the title he drops it less than a month later because WWE books in on the nostalgic run of Hulkamnania i mean HHH came back from a carer ending injury to loose a title cos of Hulk Hogans return its like they didnt want HHH to hold that title at all

 

[SAVE_YOURSELVES_111]

I agree that HHH, has certainly "benefited" from being a part of the McMahon family! And it may have enhanced his career! But I cannot deny he wasn't just "handed" the title! He was built up for a long time to get it, it's not like this happened overnight! I mean, ok, I will say that HHH kissed a lot of Kliq ass in the mid 90's, but whatever, I still think he got his main event shot, because he worked hard to get it!

The problem I think most people have with HHH which I think is hard to really debate is how he stood at the top for nearly an entire decade and consistently took the steam out of up-and-coming guys like Booker T (WM XIX), Jericho (WM X8), and RVD (unforgiven 2002) and, at least for Booker and RVD, seriously held them back from becoming as big as superstars as they should've been.

I'll agree on that one, again, we can speculate on the politics, wether Hunter had enough power to make this happen! We don't know, I don't think we ever really will. I personally think, that if Hunter DID have any influence on it, it would've been along the lines of, "Well Vince, that sounds good, but..." Not really sure if Hunter outright refused! It's very possible.

I agree the ball was dropped on all the guys that you named, and Hunter happened to be the guy from a storyline standpoint that killed there momentum! Wether it was politics or not, it's a damn shame! There was some big money to be made there! RVD was "Jeff Hardy Over" back then!

but it's hard not to blame HHH when he was the face of the guy who kept squashing our faves and remained indestructible at the top of the WWE for half a dozen years. And it's not like we had any other options with WCW and ECW both gone.

Some would say the justification of this, is that, they did it because Triple H is "so damn good", in the eyes of the WWE brass! It's etched his legacy and made him who he is! But yet, who's really right?

Fans of RVD, Booker & Jericho among others say, Hunter is to blame!

However, fans of ol' Gamey, say they're all bitter! Yet I don't agree with that, usually when I listen to them talk, they have nice things to say about a lot of people! We'll see what Jericho says when he retires.

In my personal opinion, Hunter has had some influence over how he's been booked! And how he's MAINTAINED and KEPT, what he's gotten. However, I still think it's possible, that's how Vince wanted it! Maybe the problem with those three wasn't even with Hunter! Maybe it was Vince?