Hall of Fame or Not?

[Turd Ferguson]

I started a rant in the baseball thread about how ******ed the Baseball Writers Association of America really is when it comes to voting players into the Hall of Fame. I brought up a case for Bert Blyleven, and how he should be in the Hall of Fame. He was in his fourteenth year of eligibility, and he missed it by five votes this year.

Roberto Alomar, who was arguably the best second baseman of the last 25 years, missed it by eight votes. Yesterday on Around The Horn, Jay Mariotti, the moron that he is, said that Alomar is a Hall of Famer, but NOT a First-Ballot Hall of Famer. There are writers who don't vote for players to prove a point, for something stupid such as that. Edgar Martinez is going to have a very difficult time getting in, despite revolutionizing the Designated Hitter position, because some guys won't vote for a DH.

The way I see it is that the top two or three guys should get voted in each year. The fact that only one guy, Andre Dawson, who is a borderline Hall of Famer, is getting in this year is unreal.

This gave me an idea for a thread. One person will name a player, then a poster goes ahead and responds as to whether or not they think that player is a Hall of Famer. Then, he names a player, and we keep the game going along that way. If someone wants to add input as to whether or not they think a player is deserving or not and wants to get a debate going, then that's fine too. The player can be either retired or still playing. The criteria you should judge by for a retired player is either "yes" or "no". For an active player, it should be either "yes", "needs more time", or "not at all".

Here's how it would work, for example:

Poster 1: Jeff Bagwell

Poster 2: I would say that he is a Hall of Famer. During his time in the majors, he might have been the most consistent player. He constantly put up years of 30-40 Hrs and 110+ RBIs during a stretch of about 8 straight seasons. He hit 450 career HRs and finished with a career batting average of .297 (career OBP is an awesome .408 and an OPS of .948). At one point, in his prime, Bags was even stealing 30 bases a year, which is unheard of for a first baseman. Not to mention, he's a multiple gold glove winner at first.

Just two postscript items:

1.) This is not a spam thread. If you're going to talk about a player, please use something similar to the example above. Not just something like, "Sure, he hit a lot of home runs."

2.) Let's try to keep it to American sports (Baseball, Basketball, Hockey, Football, Boxing, MMA). A lot of the American posters would lose interest quickly if someone brought up a soccer player that nobody knew. If the European fans want to start their own topic like this, that's alright.

I'll start it off with someone easy: Pedro Martinez

 

[CH David]

First off, Jay Mariotti is a fucking moron. Roberto Alomar is one of the top five, or I think Tim Kurkjian said he was one of the top six, second basemen of all time. I think if you are in the top ten in anything, you are a first ballot Hall of Famer. The BBWAA is stupid if they want to make a point that people shouldn't be put in on the first ballot.

Now, onto the main point of the thread, Pedro Martinez.

At first I had forgotten about all of his accomplishments before 2003, which is when I started getting back into baseball after my parents got divorced. Anyway, looking back, when you see all of his stats, I think it would be difficult to argue keeping him out of the HoF. He is an 8 time All Star, 3 time Cy Young Award Winner, led his league in ERA five times, and also won the AL Pitching Triple Crown. All of those are impressive statistics, especially leading the league in ERA. But he was also able to capture a World Series with Boston in 2004, and his style of play is infectious. He can either be extremely serious and try and mess you up, at least he did sometimes in Boston, or he can be the fun loving guy seen messing around the dugout, or chilling on the mound as the sprinklers go off. Among his career stats, he has a 219-100 record, 3154 strikeouts, and 760 walks. That averages to be about a 4.15 K:BB ratio. He certainly gets my vote for the HoF.

Next up for consideration: Frank Thomas.

 

[Theo Mays]

Pedro Martinez should be a first ballot HOF. The guy absolutely dominated for the Red Sox and at one point he was the best pitcher in the league. He had a decent run for the Mets and possibly finished his career strong with a great half season with the Phillies. The guy was just flat out dominant and he should be in the Hall no question. His 1999 season was one of the best seasons a pitcher has ever had. A record of 23-4, an ERA of 2.07, 313 K's (all league highs). Plus he won the Cy Young (unanimously) and finished 2nd in MVP voting. Now that is just crazy. But the rest of stats say it all:

219 wins (compared to 100 losses)
.687 winning percentage
2.93 ERA (mostly in the hitter friendly AL)
3154 K's in 2827.1 IP (1.12 K per Inning)
8x All Star
3x Cy Young Winner
AL Pitching Triple Crown winner
10 games with 15 or more K (t-3rd all time)

There is no question in my mind that Pedro is a Hall of Famer.

EDIT: CH DAVID beat me too it. So I'll answer his and keep mine up for Pedro.

Frank Thomas is one of my favorite players and I do believe he deserves to go into the Hall. Not sure if he is a first ballot guy though. He is 18th in career HR (521), 21st in RBIs (1704), and 24th in slugging percentage (.554). The one thing that will hold the Big Hurt back was being a DH. Though he did spend a good chunk of time at 1B. His HR split almost 50/50 from amount hit as a DH compared to 1B. One thing is for certain, I'm pretty confident the Big Hurt didn't do steroids, as he is an avid spokesperson for the drug testing. So my answer is yes for Frank Thomas.

Now for my player I'll select.....Mike Mussina

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Next up for consideration: Frank Thomas.

I definitely believe that Frank Thomas is a Hall of Famer. However, it comes down to what the writers think, and unfortunately, despite all of Frank's accomplishments, a lot of these dinosaurs are going to see "Designated Hitter" attached to his name, and not vote for him based on that alone.

Frank Thomas may have been the most underrated player of this era. Thomas is one of four players to have a .300 average, 500 home runs, 1500 RBIs, 1000 runs and 1500 walks during their career. Who are the other three? Mel Ott, Ted Williams and Babe Ruth. He's the all time leading home run hitter for Designated Hitters.

In the Strike-shortened 1994 season, Frank Thomas was well on his way to having a monster season. He only got to play in 113 games, but the numbers he had read like the stats of how an elite hitter performs at the end of a 162 game season.

1994:
106 runs
38 HR
101 RBI
.353/.487/.729
1.217 OPS.

That is pure dominance. He was nearly on base half of the time. He very well could have broken Maris's record if it wasn't for the Strike.

He's a two time MVP. He was an MVP runner up in 2000. Despite all of his injuries later on in his career, his numbers to end his career are still phenomenal. He should go down as one of the greatest right handed hitters of all time, especially when there's no real indication he used performance enhancing drugs.

His career ending line is: .301/.419/.555 for a .974 OPS. He finished with 521 HRs, and would have easily gotten 100 more if not for injuries.

In the way Baseball-Reference.com evaluates HOF worthy players, Thomas passes with flying colors in all categories but one, and the Black Ink criteria (the one he doesn't pass on), is the worst metric to evaluate those players to begin with.

Frank Thomas should absolutely be a Hall of Famer. Hopefully the writers aren't obtuse and let him in.

Edit: Theo beat me, let's continue with Mike Mussina.

 

[Big Sexy]

I'd definitely say Mike Mussina is a hall of famer. He finished his career with 270 wins, a 3.37 era, and he was also a 7 time gold glove winner. He finished with over 10 wins in 17 straight seasons. He had good postseason numbers as well.

Mussina also adapted well as his skills started to diminish a little. Early in his career he had a 95 mph fastball, but after a few years his velocity started to diminish. He was still able to be a dominate pitcher even with his fastball around 90 mph and he also added a splitter to his arsenal of pitches later on in his career.

Mussina has the numbers and the longevity to be a hall of famer.

Next up: Terrell Davis

 

[Theo Mays]

Terrell Davis is an interesting choice. Looking at his stats, you wouldn't think they are anything spectacular. He had 7607 career rushing yards, 60 TDs, 1280 rec yards on 169 receptions, 5 TDs, and 8 fumbles lost on 20 total fumbles. Nothing special right? Well take into the fact he did this over the course of 7 seasons. And a majority of those yards came from a 4 year stretch (1995-1998). In those 4 seasons he had 6413 yards and 56 TDs. That is pretty darn impressive if you ask me. Throw in 2 Super Bowls, a Super Bowl MVP, and a regular season MVP. But in the end, I'm gonna say no to TD. He was a great player during his run, but it didn't last. It is a shame that was the case.

Next: Andre "Bad Moon" Rison

 

[BooCocky]

I honestly do not believe Rison is a hall of famer. He has solid numbers but nothing really sticks out. Most Hall of Famers have something that really sticks out. Rison does not. Don't get me wrong he was good just not Canton bound. He's played for too many teams had some issues off the field and I believe he was never a premier receiver during his time. Something most Hall of Famers are. He was never the best and I don't believe he ranks highly in a lot of statistical categories. He only has 743 receptions, a little over 10,000 yards and he has a small YPC average. It took Art Monk years to get in to the Hall and he has better career numbers. So no, he isnt a HOF'er.

My pick: Jimmy Smith.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I don't think Jimmy Smith is a Hall of Famer. He did retire 7th in reception in 11th in yards but I don't think he was the best receiver in NFL at any point of his career. Irwin, Rison, Harrison, Owens, Rice, Brown, Carter, and Moss all played during this time and when you think of the best receivers during Smith's career, I don't think his name has or will come up in the top three. He has had a decent career but I don't know about a HOF career.

My Pick: Kurt Warner

 

[gd]

First off on the opening post, I don't get the whole thing about waiting to vote people in. If they're good enough, vote for them. Simple as that. Bill Simmons said it best on his Twitter. It was something to the affect of him being happy for Dawson finally getting in after 8 years, his great 2008 season really helped him. It just doesn't make any sense how a guy is suddenly good enough after 8 years. Seems silly to me. Also, Alomar should've definetly gotten in, especially with the weak class this year.

As for Jimmy Smith, I'd probably say yes. He's among the top 10 or so in receiving yards all time and was a consistent star every year. He never had huge TD numbers, his highest ever was 8 in a season. However, I'd he's someone who I consider a HOFer upon hearing his name, which to me is a big part of it.

Edit: LJL beat me to it. I'll do Warner though. He's a really strange case. He's only had something like 6 great seasons to go along with about 5 incredibly crappy ones. However, I'd definetly put him in. When he was good, he was really good. He came out of nowhere and became a 2 time MVP, won a Super Bowl and appeared in 2 more. He has the 3 highest passing yard marks in SB history, which is amazing. And he's still performing at a high level at this point in his career. He has to be in.

Next up: Bert Blyleven.

 

[Theo Mays]

Bert should be in the hall of fame. Too lazy to look up his numbers, but I've seen them and they are good enough for the hall. The guy should already be in and shouldn't have to wait as long as he has. I do believe next year he'll get in.

I love Jimmy Smith and he will always be one of my all time favs, but I don't see him going in. Sorry, had to show my love for Jimmy.

Kurt Warner belongs in the HOF. He has been to 3 super bowls, though only winning one. He is a former MVP and last year he showed he is still among the league's best.

Next up: Fred Taylor

 

[BooCocky]

No. Why? Because of his pro bowl selections. He was always consistent but never the best. He'd get you 1000 yds every year but he was never that explosive. He doesn't have a lot of TDs. Yes, he had 14 and 12 in years one and three but he continued to decline. He has 66 total and has played for 11+ years. So his other nine seasons he only averaged like 4 touchdowns a year. His job is to score which he was only capable of doing for like 3 seasons. In his first three years he had 32 Touchdowns. But now has 66? Not Hall of fame numbers if you ask me.

Edgerrin James...

 

[Big Sexy]

I'm going to say no to Edge. He had some great seasons with the Colts, but overall his numbers just aren't impressive enough. He had 7 seasons over 1,000 yards rushing and 80 rushing touchdowns for his career, but I just don't think it's enough to get him in. He was a great player but he wasn't great for long enough to be considered a hall of famer.

Next Up: Charles Woodson

 

[THE SWAG]

i really do not like the format on the baseball hall of fame, it should be like the nfl, nba, and nhl. where they put in 5 or 6 people at a time. and once a person reach 5 years that they have not gotten in they need to be put in look at what happen to art monk. blyleven and alomar should have made it in.

 

[CH David]

I'm going to say not yet on Charles Woodson. He has some very nice stats, 717 tackles, 11.5 sacks, and 45 interceptions. But he hasn't done anything to really impress or stand out while in the NFL. Not to me anyway. He has been voted to the Pro Bowl six times, but there was a seven year gap in between selections, from 2001 up until 2008 he was out. Now he has stepped it up since going to the Packers, but I think he still needs to win a Super Bowl, or at the very least, become even better than he has been the last few years. But for me, he wouldn't be in yet.

Next player: Josh Beckett.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

As a Red Sox fan, I'm going to say that the only way Josh Beckett is ever going to be close to being Hall of Fame worthy is if he starts putting up Cy Young caliber seasons from here on out. He was a .500 pitcher in Florida, putting up solid, but not great, seasons there. When he came to Boston, he put up horrible stats his first season. He did great in 2007, was solid in 2008, and good in 2009. Injuries have been one of his major Achilles Heels since he first started playing. He's turning 30 years old this year, and you ask yourself, "What has he actually done?" Sure, he was a part of two World Series Championship teams, and he's been one of the best postseason pitchers in recent memory. Unfortunately, as far as the regular season goes, he hasn't come as advertised.

Out of the four standards on how baseball-reference.com measures a Hall of Famer, Beckett isn't even close to being what an average Hall of Famer is.

He's going to be 30, he has 106 career wins, a career 3.79 ERA, and a career WHIP of 1.22. He also has 1330 Strikeouts. I think Beckett could definitely get there. However, he needs to really start putting up some strong regular season campaigns, and he needs to continue to be a big game playoff pitcher.

Let's go with David Wells.

 

[CH David]

I'm going with a no on Boomer. He was a journeyman who lasted 20 years in the bigs. His best accomplishments were winning the World Series in 1992 with the Blue Jays, and in 1998 with the Yankees, and his Perfect Game, which he claims he was hungover on. He had good control and an awesome curve ball, but later in his career his fastball would lose velocity, so it wasn't as effective. He is 239-157, with a 4.13 ERA and 2,201 strikeouts. He would have some very good seasons in his career, including 17,18,19,20, win seasons during the '90s and in 2002. But even with those totals and his numbers, he just doesn't go in for me.

I'll throw out, Kenny Rogers.

 

[Big Sexy]

I don't see Kenny getting in. 219 career wins, a career 4.27 era, and 5 gold gloves is good, but it won't be enough to get him into the hall of fame.

With Kenny it seemed like he struggled to put together back to back great seasons. Every time he would have a great year, it would be followed up with an average season. The only back to back great seasons he put up were late in his career. 2005 in Texas and 2006 in Detroit.

One final thing going against Kenny is his abysmal playoff performances. With the exception of his 2006 run in Detroit he was absolutely horrendous in the postseason.

Next up: Chris Webber

 

[CH David]

I've got to give it a no on C-Webb. He was able to help with the turn around in Sacramento, having his best years there, but he couldn't put them over the hump of the Lakers in the time he was there. He had some good offensive years, in Sacramento especially, but he was overshadowed most of his career. With the likes of Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Shaq, and when Lebron and company came into the league 4-5 years ago, to name a few, his numbers just didn't stick out. Be it media coverage, whatever, just didn't stand out. He is a 5 time All Star, and made the All-NBA team 5 times, once on the first and third team, and three times on the second team. He won the rebounding title in 1999, and the ROTY in 1994. Other than that, not so much. I could be wrong, but he doesn't get in.

Next considered: Michael Strahan.

 

[Theo Mays]

A big old yes for the gap toothed wonder. Strahan is the all time leader in sacks in a season and he is near the top in career sacks. He ended his career with a SB victory and was widely considered one of the best defensive players in the game during his team. No doubt in my mind that Strahan is a HOF.

Next: Curtis Martin

 

[BooCocky]

Curtis Martin is a sure fire hall of famer. He has the yards, he has the touchdowns, he has the pro bowls. He was also running strong at the end of his career which shows what kind of shape he was in.

These are his career rankings
Career statistical rankings

* 3,518 career rushing attempts (3rd all-time)
* 14,101 career rushing yards (4th all-time)
* 17,430 career yards from scrimmage (7th all-time)
* 90 career rushing touchdowns (12th all-time)
* 100 career rushing/receiving touchdowns (19th all-time)
* Oldest player to win a rushing title (2004)

Martin was more than a running back, he was a solid blocker and an excellent pass catcher. He has HOF numbers, therefore he should be in the Hall of Fame. He was pretty much a top 5 running back his entire career, which in my book is good enough to get his face in Canton.

Mark McGwire.

 

[the troop]

Well, if you look at his numbers and accomplishments, it would appear that Mcgwire should be in the hall of fame.

-583 home runs
-1414 RBIs
-'87 Rookie of the Year
-1990 Gold Glover
-12 time All Star
-Named to MLB All-Century Team

He is one of the best power hitters to ever play the game. He had a 10.61 at bat to Homerun ratio. That is amazing to think about. He and Sammy Sosa produced one of the greatest summers of baseball in 1998 in their race to Roger Marris' single season home run record.

Again, looking at what he has done in his career, he should be in the HoF.

But, you got to keep in mind his involvement in steriods. It is impossible to think about Mcgwire without thinking about his steriod troubles. Hall of fame voters are certainly keeping this in mind. If you look at his hall of fame ballot records, he has failed to reach 25% in all 4 of his chances.

Maybe one day he will get in, but as far as the near future goes, it doesnt look like he has much of a chance. Ill say no for Big Mac.

Curt Schilling

 

[gd]

I'm going to say Schilling should get in. Sure, he didn't have a ton of wins. I think he didn't have many over 200. However, he when it counted, he stepped up. Co-MVP of the 01 World Series with Arizona and a heroic performance in the playoffs for Boston when they finally won the Series. Schilling was a big game pitcher, which is enough to get you into the Hall.

Next up: Hines Ward

 

[Big Sexy]

I've got to give it a no on C-Webb. He was able to help with the turn around in Sacramento, having his best years there, but he couldn't put them over the hump of the Lakers in the time he was there. He had some good offensive years, in Sacramento especially, but he was overshadowed most of his career. With the likes of Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Shaq, and when Lebron and company came into the league 4-5 years ago, to name a few, his numbers just didn't stick out. Be it media coverage, whatever, just didn't stand out. He is a 5 time All Star, and made the All-NBA team 5 times, once on the first and third team, and three times on the second team. He won the rebounding title in 1999, and the ROTY in 1994. Other than that, not so much. I could be wrong, but he doesn't get in.

It looks like your two reasons for him not getting in are: He never won an NBA title and his numbers didn't stand out.

Addressing the first reason, there are plenty of players who have never won an NBA title that are still sure fire hall of famers. Guys like Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, and John Stockton are already in and someone like Karl Malone is a first ballot guy. Plenty of players are in the hall of fame without a championship ring.

For the second reason, Chris Webber averaged 20.7 points, 9.8 rebounds, and 4.2 assists per game for his career. Only 4 other players had career averages of 20 points, 9 rebounds, and 4 assists. Those 4 players are Elgin Baylor, Larry Bird, Billy Cunningham, and Wilt Chamberlain. All of the names listed are hall of famers and some of the best players in NBA history.

C Webb has the stats and although he never won a title I believe he will be in the Hall of Fame.

 

[CH David]

It looks like your two reasons for him not getting in are: He never won an NBA title and his numbers didn't stand out.

Addressing the first reason, there are plenty of players who have never won an NBA title that are still sure fire hall of famers. Guys like Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, and John Stockton are already in and someone like Karl Malone is a first ballot guy. Plenty of players are in the hall of fame without a championship ring.

For the second reason, Chris Webber averaged 20.7 points, 9.8 rebounds, and 4.2 assists per game for his career. Only 4 other players had career averages of 20 points, 9 rebounds, and 4 assists. Those 4 players are Elgin Baylor, Larry Bird, Billy Cunningham, and Wilt Chamberlain. All of the names listed are hall of famers and some of the best players in NBA history.

C Webb has the stats and although he never won a title I believe he will be in the Hall of Fame.

That is fantastic that you think he should be in. I don't, big fucking deal. And you see the things about all the names you mentioned who haven't won a championship, they all stood out with their play. Webber never stood out to me. If he gets in, awesome, for me it will be for having stats that flew under the radar. They are good, I didn't disagree, but he just didn't have any stand out numbers over the course of his career, not when averaged out, in my opinion.

Now, keeping on subject, Hines Ward. I think he will make it. He is one of the top receivers in Steelers history, and will continue to put up numbers until he retires. He is currently the leader in Steelers history when it comes to receptions and touchdowns. Plus, Lynn Swann is in the Hall of Fame, with less impressive numbers than Hines, other than his 4 Super Bowl wins to Ward's 2. Hines Ward gets the nod from me.

Next up: Chris Chelios.

 

[Big Sexy]

That is fantastic that you think he should be in. I don't, big fucking deal.

What's with the fucking hostility homie?

If someone wants to add input as to whether or not they think a player is deserving or not and wants to get a debate going, then that's fine too.

See I was just trying to start a little debate, which is what part of this thread is about.

As for Chelios, I'd say he definitely gets in. He's a three time Norris Trophy winner, he has won two Stanley Cups, and he's an 11 time all star. He has been the captain of two different teams in the NHL and he has always been consistent. He was considered an elite defensemen for nearly 20 years.

Next up: Tim Hardaway