Good not great - Is Randy Orton finally exposed?

[shooter_mcgavin]

Over the recent year or so I have been wondering how Randy Orton turned from the #2 guy in the industry to the #6 or #7 guy. From a guy destined to be one of the top three young guys in 2005 to carry the future (which includes Batista and John Cena) to someone that is seen as an afterthought these days in the mid card the drop does seem strange.

Then I began to think maybe Randy Orton is just not that great of a talent.

I mean looking at his overall work Randy Orton just does not seem to excel in the criteria that make a top grade superstar. If you look at his rise to the WWE back in mid 2003 and now my overall assessment of Randy Orton in his promo skills and in ring work is Above Average to Good. In fact looking at his in ring work he's really no diffrent from Hardcore Holly in a sense that both guys have perfected the WWE style of moves and storytelling but nothing beyond that.

So tracing back his career and looking what's changed when he was the hottest point in his career and now I do feel his success has been attributed to him being handpicked by Triple H and Ric Flair and was given opportunities to work with a lot of WWE Legends (due to his Legend Killer gimmick) and established stars like Triple H, Ric Flair, The Rock, Mick Foley, The Undertaker, Hulk Hogan etc.

But then even in that period there appeared to be cracks in his capability from his failed Face turn in 2004 to lack of relevance from 2006 to 2007 until he started working with Triple H and Shawn Michaels again.

So what changed right now, Why is he having another long dry spell? Than I thought about it, what has happened these few years that changed? And the answer is the departure of a lot of the top stars guys like Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, Edge and even Triple H is only appearing part time.

So for the first time since 2002 it's really up to the 2005+ generation to completely carry the company. And from his feuds with Kane, Wade Barrett, Alberto Del Rio, and Ziggler with Orton being now the veteran it does seem that Randy Orton just can't seem to carry a feud by himself. Sure he's been able to have a good program with Christian and Mark Henry but even so with those feuds you could argue that Christian carried his and Mark Henry pretty much sold the feud by looking dominant. Even so the the number of strong feuds are out numbered by weak ones in the last 2 to 3 years of Orton's career.

I am not saying he's not a good wrestler but maybe a tad overpraised and overrated. He can seem to fit comfortably in a high profile feuds or story lines but only if guys like Triple H, Foley, Edge, Flair, are there to carry it.

So my question is, Is Randy Orton really the Top Guy WWE should invest in? Is he really as great as he was destined to be? Or is he now just exposed?

 

[zwbruno]

I just wrote a few lines about this in a blog, but I totally agree.

Orton has become someone who can't tell a compelling story outside the ring. His in-ring work is awesome, but he doesn't have any other characteristics that make him relatable or interesting. I do think he will continue to be used to put guys over because he still has name value. I don't think the WWE will heavily invest in him because he is unreliable and kinda boring.

I would love to see a rekindling of his feud with Wade Barrett over the IC Title headed into Mania. That feud got cut short and they work very well together. I would also like to see Wade get that rub haha

 

[Nadeem Ahmad]

He still is solid in the ring, and athletic enough to do spots well enough and hang in there, but maybe abusing substances is the problem. Since about 2008, I think he has violated the Wellness Policy twice. Maybe he doesn't seem to have the stamina he once had, partly due to not being allowed for using specific drugs. I can't quite put a reason to why he won't keep up in the more infamous feuds. Also, the younger guys like Dolph Ziggler and Daniel Bryan (if he is younger) seem hungrier to get the spotlight, but Randy has been there for such a long time, and is at least a four time WWE Champion (describing the main title, not the World Heavyweight Championship), so the lesser flashiness or desperation for being in the main events is not so much of a surprise.

 

[CrazyChicksDigger]

Much of Orton's "downward spiral," aside from his Wellness Violations, stems from his being shipped to be the "headliner" on the poison show known as Smackdown. You can't put a #2 guy on a sinking ship and expect him to remain that way forever.

The "turn him heel" cries would, I suppose, fix most of the problems. As a face, he simply has ZERO charisma. His promos are terribly stale at best, rivaling Sheamus' lame face promos. Maybe they could form a tag-team called The Fellas, two lame faces who are better served as heels, LOL. Well, anyway.

 

[Brewski]

Barrett had a great 2011 and then ran into just a boat load of injury and "wellness" issues so it makes sense that WWE is weary to push him back up to the top. I still consider him an elite guy and when a younger guy beats him it is still significant to me. My biggest problems with Orton are his really weak Raw/smackdown matches (he's always really good on PPVs, boring weekly) and his gimmick. It just doesn't make sense for a face character. How is it acceptable to be a viciously violent ass hole that can snap and kick somebody in the face? Heel written all over it. I think that's why the character can't evolve, it hast to be held back and becomes stale.

I think over the next year he can get back to his high level but the amount of championship contenders is crazy so it's hard for anyone to build up. I really do hope he and barrett rekindle a feud since for me that was one of the best of 2011 until wade got hurt. If wade beat Orton at mania that would have cemented him in the main event IMO.

 

[Trill Co$by]

The problem is that they put a big time player on the B show and expected him to not be pissed about it. Let's face it, Randy Orton as a heel was probably one of the best heel runs in the company. Even as a face, he could have garnered some interest. But when you're sticking him with mid-card rivals and making him lose those matches, it's going to diminish his worth in the company. Even a WWE poster boy can get burnt out on having to sit back for someone he knows is not ready for his spot.

Orton is still a terrific worker and can definitely shine if given the chance. To be honest, I think it's time Orton cut his losses and went elsewhere. I mean, there are plenty of promotions he can go work for. I think Orton could even be such a big asset that NWA could revive its branches and make him the star just so that they can become a major player again. Or he could go to Japan, ROH, or even TNA... where he'd be respected highly.

Or maybe he just doesn't care anymore.

 

[Kodo Sawaki]

So my question is, Is Randy Orton really the Top Guy WWE should invest in? Is he really as great as he was destined to be? Or is he now just exposed?

You are coming with the wrong ussumption. They dont invest in him anymore because he screwed up lots of times and become more than a liability and not because he isnt good.

Sure he's been able to have a good program with Christian and Mark Henry but even so with those feuds you could argue that Christian carried his and Mark Henry pretty much sold the feud by looking dominant.

I would just say: Haha...

Standard IWC logic: He is not very good, when he looked good opponents carried him off.

Newsflash: He is one of the best technical wrestlers WWE has at the moment. If one Bret Hart who is very stingy at his estimations and praises(he berated Taker- HHH from last years Mania) calls Orton best technician in WWE it means that he is great and he proved that over the years with his in-ring work. But for him problem is not in-ring work but the problem is attitude. He screwed up too many times and WWE is not keen investing at him right now...

 

[the_mighty_biggs]

Orton just got stale he needs to be gone for a long time completly for like 2 years.

WWE should just pay him a low salary to dissapear from wrestling and in 2 or 3 years bring him back cause if Orton goes to TNA he will forever be a midcard dude.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

I find it hard to take your argument seriously based off Orton's performance tonight, considering from the moment he left the pod and entered the Chamber match itself he was a proverbial man of fire.

Orton's issue isn't him, it's the way creative look at him. It was widely reported WWE weren't going to invest highly in him due to his issues with the wellness policy and proneness to injury, which he is usually unluckily stricken by. Ignoring this however, Orton is still one of the top guys in the company. They can place him wherever they feel on the card, doesn't alter the fact that Orton is weekly on the receiving end of some of the biggest pops from live audiences.

But by far the biggest Orton related issue has already been shown in this thread:

It just doesn't make sense for a face character. How is it acceptable to be a viciously violent ass hole that can snap and kick somebody in the face? Heel written all over it. I think that's why the character can't evolve, it hast to be held back and becomes stale.

Steve Austin's character was a ********, The Rock's character in-reality was a ********, The Undertaker was playing a malicious, cold looking person at the height of his face runs, Kane under the mask originally was a behemoth and would regularly be cheered for assaulting others, whether they be face or heel, it was irrelevant.

Orton's character is not what you are supposed to like, especially considering it was fan reaction to him as a heel which ultimately saw him turn. He plays a cold blooded, callous, reserved individual, that isn't very hard to play off as a good guy because it all depends on how people perceive it. You do make the point though that this form of Orton has grown somewhat stale and hes left with few options.

In the coming months Randy is expected to transition into a heel. This happening all depends how the fans take to it, could be another case of The Rock or Austin, where fans reject the idea of Orton being a bad guy again considering he doesn't play too much of a good one now. This aside, hes still one of the best in-ring workers the company has, still gains some of the best reactions, is still one of the most favored and recognized, not to mention his speaking ability is vastly underrated - you don't have to rhyme eighteen different words in a long-winded sentence like The Rock to cut a good promo, case in point, Jake Roberts.

 

[Mantis]

Has anyone had a more contradicting career than Randy Orton? It seems like every good thing about him is cancelled out by an equally bad thing.

Supremely talented in the ring <---> Injury prone/Drug issues

Gets a big pop from the live crowd every week <---> Not much charisma/Better as a heel

But I think his biggest issue (aside from wellness violations) is that he peaked too soon. He's feuded with everybody, he's main-evented WrestleManias, he has a Royal Rumble victory, and he's a 9-time world champion. In earlier decades, someone so accomplished at a relatively young age could go to another promotion and breath new life into his career while still retaining his star power. Unfortunately, with today's basically monopolized mainstream wrestling market, that isn't a great option for Orton. He can go to ROH or TNA and do great work, but those companies are a major step down from WWE.

 

[Pedigree1]

Good thread btw. Wow i feel bad for orton i really do. Randy had arguably the best heel run i have ever seen in a long time. Punting people in the face just a ruthless badass who would RKO his own mom. I think he needs to go back to being a full fledged heel and go back to Raw where he belongs. Its not Randys fault that he is injury prone he cant help that.

Creative though,IMO really doesnt believe in Randy to be the top two or at least no3 guy in the company. No way in hell should Randy be in 6th or 7th no way. Randy has great in ring work and good on the mic. But for gods sake you cant have him losing to mid card guys on what some people would call the B show.

Randy has been clean for awhile to our knowledge at least i think its time that creative starts to believe in him. Turn Randy Heel and find a song that fits him. Voices in the head is lame its time that Randy gets a song ala Punks old song and Mark Henrys type intro

 

[TeddyCJD]

You guys are reading far too much into this Orton situation. He is treading water at the moment for one reason...WWE does not want to push him as a face, and they are waiting for the right time to turn him heel. That is all. Sheamus needed time to blossom as the top face on SD over the last year, and WWE had to put stock into Del Rio's babyface character. After Orton's recent losses, including tonight against Swagger, he is clearly going to snap at some point soon...i notice that Extreme Rules is in St. Louis...if he loses a match there, i would say he turns heel the next night on Raw, and boom, we have a refreshing new heel character to lead us through the summer! They are not going to push a character (Orton as a face) that they have no interest in keeping around going forward, so stop all the bullshit about how his star has faded blah blah blah! Orton will be back as one of the top two heels in the company in a couple of short months...bank on it!

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Somethings going on with Orton in the WWE that's for sure but personally I don't think its him getting knocked down the card its just him changing roles. I've said before with CM Punk some performers are just made to be faces and others are made to be heels and although Orton was a good face he's much better in the heel role even though he gets plenty of cheers.

Orton's character really doesn't have many endearing qualities, he's not like Cena where he does things to be liked, really the only thing that's changed about Orton from heel to face is he fights heels instead of faces and doesn't punt people in the head, that's about it. Because he's "The Viper" and his personality is what it is he's just made to be a heel, there's not really any face qualities about him.

All in all this is just a transition of his character so he can be a heel again. That's why he's losing as much as he is and that's why he's not as prominent as he once was, its all part of something bigger for Orton which will lead him to the #1 or #2 heel in the company.

 

[Sexcellence of Sexecution]

Randy Orton is one of the best workers in the company, and he is among the very few who actually get a strong reaction from the fans. He really has developed into a guy who can have a match with basically anyone, and he has the power to hold the crowd in the palm of his hands. The biggest problem with Randy Orton is that he peaked too soon. He won the World Title at 24 and essentially became a main eventer and by the time he really hit his stride in terms of ability as well as maturity he had already been in the main event scene for a long time.

Now it seems as though he's in the Shawn Michaels role, an upper midcard guy who delivers great matches and can help midcarders get up to the next level or occassional fill in for a main event spot when needed. It's just strange to seem someone as young as Orton be in such a position, but again that goes back to what I said about peaking too soon.

I'm forced to conclude that people who say Orton sucks or has nothing to offer are being willfully ignorant or are just not in touch with reality. I see a guy that comes out every week to a great pop, often one of the biggest of the entire night, works a good match pretty much every time, sends the crowd into an absolute frenzy when he sets-up for and hits the RKO, and win or lose always comes out looking strong. Randy Orton is a phenomenal talent with a great deal to offer the WWE, whether it be in his current position helping elevate other stars, or with a renewed push to the top of the card as either a face or a heel.

 

[Brewski]

Steve Austin's character was a ********, The Rock's character in-reality was a ********, The Undertaker was playing a malicious, cold looking person at the height of his face runs, Kane under the mask originally was a behemoth and would regularly be cheered for assaulting others, whether they be face or heel, it was irrelevant.

Theres a difference between having a character thats an ass hole that just kicks people's asses and a character that wants to seriously injure and maim people. The same character that was "going to that place" and punting them in the face is now doing a watered down version of the same character. I'm sorry but it just isn't logical to me.

 

[info62]

I have said in other threads why I don't think an Orton heel turn will work out as well as people seem to keep suggesting. But mainly my reasoning is that it's not being a face that's holding him back, it's the Viper gimmick. The viper and voices stuff seemed to have sucked the life out of him.

But I think that it's strange to think that turning heel will somehow make all of his problems disappear. Like when people say that being face is forcing him to have a repetitive moveset, but I still remember lots of complaints about his never-ending headlocks when he was a heel. That is not a face-exclusive issue.

So my question is, Is Randy Orton really the Top Guy WWE should invest in? Is he really as great as he was destined to be? Or is he now just exposed?

I have no idea if they will invest in Orton again. To me he was at his best during his 2007 heel title reign and I just don't think he will return to that level of entertainment value, but this is just my opinion of course. Plus the unreliable rep probably isn't helping him.

Then again he's one of the most over people on the roster. WWE may still want to capitalize on that. If he continues being irrelevant or if he gets a renewed push, I wouldn't be surprised either way at this point.

 

[geroge86]

What happened to Orton? The answer is time. He's gotten older & had some injuries. His body has been banged up he can't perform on such a hectic schedule without having to take some time off every now & then so because of that they probably don't want him being involved in the main event picture any more

 

[LascoX]

Orton in my opinion is still a solid worker with alot of good years ahead of him. As has been noted by many his wellness violations have been the root of many of his problems with creative as it's hard to really invest in someone you are gunshy with from past exsperiances. Wrestling popularity has always had its highs and lows just like there is swings from heel to face and many are directly symbiotic in nature. Orton as most would agree is a far better heel than face, Personally I had commented in the past posts in other threads how well I thought Randy did his job because I really hated the guy (lol). Randy was one of the best heels to come down the line in a long time. I always thought it was a mistake to turn him face as I saw him growing into an ultimate tweener like Cena. In fact before the turn he was sort of the anti-Cena where as Cena is a tweener that leans toward being a face and is hated for various reasons in numorus post by others (I'm not going into that here) Back to point though - Randy was a perfect mirror to Cena being a heel that people were starting to cheer for ala Austin. The problem was that Vince and creative were thinking Austin when they flipped him to face when they shoud have milked the heel tweener that Randy excelled at. I have no doubt that if Randy stays clean and works hard will be one of the top guys in the company for years to come. He is decent on a mike , has the tools in the ring and has the look and history to keep him rolling for a long time to come. If he stays healthy and clean the skys the limit for him. He needs to go back to heel and hang there for a long time before flipping the switch to try another face turn. Very few guys constantly stay on the top spot without dipping down from time to time. The ones that weather the turbulance are the ones that reap the reward in the end. Mark Henry is a perfect example of that. Randy is a solid worker and I still see him being one of the top go to guys in the years to come.

 

[thebarber]

problem is two fold.

1. he cannot be trusted, he has a recreational drug problem and Vince has enough guys he can oput faith in that he doesnt need to use Orton in the role, thus why Sheamus got his spot.
2. Orton is a natural smalmy prick, and makes the perfect heel. Forcing him to wrestle as a face has brought him undone, he clearly phones it in most times and is there for the 10 year contract he is getting paid 7 figures each year. WWE created the monster in a slack Randy Orton, so they deserve what they now have got.

 

[MCMG]

I've been thinking the same for a while. How is it that Orton and Cena have gone so long without world title is crazy. These two were the men that were going to dominate the WWE for decades.

I believe that Orton is worthy of the investment he received. He is very good in the ring - top 5 in the WWE at the moment and continues to prove so. Just look at the chamber match last night - I thought he was terrific. He should be a world champion, he is deserving and it makes sense. He is not at the stage in his career where he should be getting people over. Right now:Randy Orton is above that.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

Theres a difference between having a character thats an ass hole that just kicks people's asses and a character that wants to seriously injure and maim people. The same character that was "going to that place" and punting them in the face is now doing a watered down version of the same character. I'm sorry but it just isn't logical to me.

So people like The Undertaker sucked as a good guy? Considering he has hung people from his emblem high above the arena? Or how about Jake Roberts, who much like Orton during his face run spoke about dissecting people limb-by-limb; what may not make sense to you actually makes sense in reality. His character is irrelevant, it's very obvious they've pushed back on the Orton character but it's still what its been for the majority of his face run - cold, callous, reserved individual who is highly dangerous and like a viper can strike from anywhere.

You're missing the point, which is where the issue lies.

 

[boywithbluehanger]

Well overall, the biggest thing holding back Orton, is the company. He gets the pop. He remains relevant without doing anything. He maintains his physique. He stays in character successfully. A lot of people here blame his wellness policy failures and injuries but at the core of the problem, the WWE is responsible for not pushing him. CM Punk has been pushed to the moon and the only real crowd responses he gets are from PPVs and online. Punk replaced Orton by the forcing of WWE. When Punk comes down the ramp, he doesn't get the same response that Orton does. When Punk gives a long, overdrawn, speech, the crowd isn't really into it. As a heel, he doesn't get booed much. As a face, he's not allowed to keep his anti-hero persona. He's a great example of WWE forcing a "successful" character on us. You may notice that they've done the same with Cody Rhodes in 2011/early 2012 and currently with Del Rio. I like Punk, Rhodes, and Del Rio a lot but if we're determining who should get pushed based on crowd reaction and fanbases, Orton not being pushed is less of his own doing and more of the company's.

All that is to say, the WWE is solely responsible for halting Orton's push just as they are responsible for forcing pushes on the company as well. *Zack Ryder agrees*

 

[JBM]

Yeah, I can somewhat agree with the "good, not great" statement. What he does get is a reaction that still better than most. Over the past couple months he's been losing just about every match and he's playing the psychological results of it pretty well. It's very subtle and ever growing in his frustration in himself, his abilities and soon his fans. Soon, (probably at or after WM), I expect to him to snap on someone, probably Sheamus to develop their feud.

 

[BaconBits]

I personally don't really care much about Orton, never really have, and I probably never will. I've never been into any of his characters, well, ever.

That said, Randy is one of the better guys on the roster. He almost always gets a big-huge reaction, and in terms of professional wrestling, that means he's doing his job at a higher level than much of the rest of the roster.

He hasn't had any kind of meaningful high level feud in quite some time. That's why I think folks are maybe thinking he's not so good. If he were inserted back into the main event scene in a great feud, I don't think this thread even exists.

 

[#MrScissorsKick]

Well...

I, like others have no doubt that Randy Orton is good. Is he great? I'm not sold on it yet. Orton was at the top of his game from about 05-10. Multiple world champion, solid feuds with Triple H and Cena. But lately he's been real dull. He hasn't been in the title scene in a hot minute but then again, you don't always have to be a world champ to be one of the top guys. In my opinion Randy has a bright future. Sheamus, big show, del rio and mark henry are older than him and I think he'll get back on the top after their careers are slowing down. I wouldn't say ortom is great not yet anyways, but no doubt he's very good