Girl spanked to death by parents

[LSN80]

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2011/08/15/exp.ac.tuchman.punishment.cnn&iref=NS1

If you can get through this entire thing without feeling disgust and anger, more power to you. To me, this is the true noose around the neck of religion. If you dont want to watch the video, I dont blame you, and Ill do my best to summarize.

Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz of Paradise, California, were charged with murder and torture for beating their two adoptive daughters, causing injuries so severe that one, 8 year old Lydia, died. The parents were following the teachings of the fundamentalist Christian book "To Train Up a Child." by Michael Pearl. The book contains such gems as:

If you spare your child the rod, you hate your child. If you love your child, you punish him timely. The rod, in this case, can be anything from a tree switch, a spatula, or a plumbing supply line.

The rod is a magic wand. God would not have instructed parents to use a rod if he didnt mean it for punitive measures. If dogs and cats can be trained, so can children. Any spanking to successfully reinforce punishment must cause pain.

The Schatz' followed these teachings to the letter. In fact, they beat both their adoptive daughter for seven straight hours with a pipeline, only taking short breaks to pray. Their eight year old daughter, Lydia, sufferred injuries that doctors classified as consistent with an earthquake or massive attack, and died of cardiac arrest. Their eleven year old daughter, Zariah, was in critical condition for a month after sustaining similar punishment. What were they being punished for, you ask? Mis-pronouncing a freaking word during a home-school reading lesson the day before she died. The Schatz family believed in a religious philosophy that espouses corporal punishment to “train” children to be more obedient to their parents and God, using “the rod” as a corrective tool. In this case, the rod was a quarter-inch thick plastic plumbing line.

Michael the father, pleaded guilty to second degree murder and torture, and was sentenced to 21 years in jail. The mother, Elizabeth, pleaded guilty to voluntary manslaughter and cruelty to a child, and was sentenced to 12 years in jail. The Schatz' parental rights were also terminated, and their children are in foster care. At the sentencing hearing, eleven year old Zariah, still recovering from her injuries, addressed her parents in open court:

Why did you adopt her? So you could kill her? Were you trying to kill me?

District Attorney Mike Ramsey said the following regarding the outcome:

“The Schatzes’ method of discipline was obviously just flat wrong and cruel. Their parental rights were terminated and the children are in foster care. “It’s a good outcome, particularly for the children, who do not have to testify. I do believe the child(Lydia) would still be alive if the parents hadn't read the Pearl book”

Michael Pearl issued the following tactless, indifferent response to Ramsey's words.

It has come to may attention that a vocal few are decrying our sensible application of the Biblical rod in training up our children. I laugh at my caustic critics, for our properly spanked and trained children grow to maturity in great peace and love…When your children finally find an honest mechanic or a trustworthy homebuilder, it will be one of ours…When your children apply for a job it will be at a company our children founded.

When they go to a doctor, it will be one of our Christian children that heals them with cutting edge innovation. When your adult kids go for therapy it will be one of our kids-become-psychologist that directs them to the couch and challenges them to release their self-loathing and embrace hope for a better tomorrow.

My five grown children are laughing at your foolish, uninformed criticism of God’s method of child training, for their kids—my 17 grandkids—are laughing . . . because that is what they do most of the time… Even my chickens are laughing . . . well, actually it more like cackling, because they just laid another organic egg for my breakfast and they know that it was that same piece of ¼ inch plastic supply line that trained the dogs not to eat chicken.

To me, this is the epitome of arrogance. I had not heard of Mr. Pearl before this case, but his arrogance and tactlessness shines through here. Is he to blame for the death of Lydia? Of course not. But it does raise the question of whether or not the girl would still be alive if the family had not read the Pearl book, and followed it to the letter. The book speaks as if punishment is all sweetness and delight, and yet talks about calmly stalking the child if they run from the spanking, laughing at their frail attempts to escape. And there's so much more, yet all couched in language of smiles and happy families. But there's no mercy, grace, or freedom found within the book, just legalism, punishment, and salvation by "the rod". Ive been taught differently, but maybe thats just me. So i throw it to you:

Do you believe the young girl would still be alive had the parents not read the Pearl book? Or was this bound to happen?

Were the sentences in this case just?

Is spanking an appropriate form of discipline in any situation?

Feel free to take this in any direction you like. Any other comments or thoughts are welcome.

 

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

Truly fucked and disgusting.

This would have happened either way, anyone nutty enough to take that kind of horse shit to heart would have "beaten the devil" out of their child in one way or another.

The sentences where anything but just. They should have been stoned to death, or some other barbaric form of the death penalty.

Spanking is appropriate when used very sparingly, and I mean very very sparingly, and only in certain cases, like if the child doesn't respond to any other form of punishment, and even then I'm still pretty much against it. I was spanked on two different occasions as a child, and both stuck with me, not because of the pain, but because of the lessons I learned - I can't say I would ever spank my own children though.

This is one of many reasons religion is so fucked, and I truly have a hatred for story's like this. These two worthless fucks don't deserve to breath the same air as me. I truly hope to awake one day to find out these two "parents" have been raped and murdered in their prison cells with a bible shoved sideways up their assholes.

 

[JWGunslinger]

Do you believe the young girl would still be alive had the parents not read the Pearl book? Or was this bound to happen?
I think that Pearl's pathetic excuse for a book is certainly a major factor, but I think that this was bound to happen, as anyone stupid enough to read that crap and think it was sensible is senseless. These idiots give christians a bad name and they disgust me, any true christian would be appaled by the idea of basically torturing their children.

Were the sentences in this case just?
I think that they deserve more time for such horrible acts, they killed a little girl. If you think that beating a child for HOURS is ok in any way,shape or form then I do not want you walking the streets. Atleast they cannot have children in the fututre because it would be downright stupid to allow them the oppertunity to do this again.

Is spanking an appropriate form of discipline in any situation?
I personally don't have a problem with parents spanking their kids, but that is an entirely different story, beating a child for hours with a pipe because she mis pronounced a word is insane. When I was a kid if I did something really bad I got spanked, but it was once and not with a damn pipe. When I have kids I don't plan on spanking them, from personal expeirience when my mom took away my Xbox it was much more effective. But if parents do chose to spank their children I don't have a problem if it's a light spank for something bad rather than a brutal beating for saying something incorrectly.

 

[klunderbunker]

I have no problem with the sentencing as the idea of COMMON SENSE should have come into play. When your child is bleeding and clearly in trauma, you stop. I don't care what some book says. You should know when your child is on the verge of death due to being beaten with a metal pole. If they did this practically all day and the thought of "maybe that's enough" or "maybe this is too much" didn't cross their minds, they belong in jail.

As for spanking, I think it can be effective, but in certain circumstances only. If I have kids I'm not sure I could bring myself to do it, but I can see how it could work. I was spanked once and all I know is I didn't do what I got in trouble for again. Now that being said, I tend to like the taking things away idea a bit better. There comes a point where spanking isn't going to work anymore and then what do you do? HIt them harder? I could see it working on occasion, but nothing more than a light tap here or there.

 

[HBK-aholic]

1. She would still be alive, I believe that. They've used this warped man's book as a bible, as if this is how God would want parents to react. They're fucking idiots, to say the least, as is the person who wrote the thing. If they hadn't read it, while I doubt she'd be dead right now, I'm sure she'll have been brought up in a very Fundamentalist 'Christian' way. You know, similar to the Westboro scum.

2. The death penalty still exists for people like them. They're nothing less than child killers who should never be allowed near children - or people, again. Manslaughter? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that killing someone without meaning to? Or, rather with 'no prior intent to kill, and which was committed under such circumstances that would "cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed." ' They BEAT this child for 7 hours straight, she must have been bleeding, screaming, even going lifeless at points, maybe passing out. Don't tell me they didn't know she was about to die. And do not tell me not pronouncing a word was a reasonable reason to become disturbed enough to kill. Bull. Shit.

3.

Now that being said, I tend to like the taking things away idea a bit better.

This says it all. I've never once hit my children and I never will. I find it disgusting, especially to the extent some people do it, and in public. I have to bite my tongue when I see someone doing something like that in the supermarket, simply because a child is crying, or trying to pick up a sweet/toy. Taking their favourite toys away is much more effective. You can slap them and they'll cry for a few minutes, and you've just been violent towards your child. Personally, I don't think I'd be able to live with that, and I'd be more upset than the child. Instead, I take away their favourite toy or book for a few hours or days, depending on the action, and when they've stopped the particular behaviour. Much more effective than parents who feel the need to slap their child for every little thing.

 

[Fizzy]

Do you believe the young girl would still be alive had the parents not read the Pearl book? Or was this bound to happen?

Tough to say. I feel that those people are so messed up and extreme that they would find another reason to commit these acts of violence. I think the book certainly had something to do with the death, but people like them are going to find an excuse to beat their children. They were sick and twisted people and the book just pushed them over the edge. It would have happened eventually.

Were the sentences in this case just?

No, the sentences were in no way just. They fucking killed a child and severely damaged the rest for life. They weren't attempting to discipline the girl by beating her for seven hours. I feel they had full intentions to either severely damage her or kill her. No way anybody can beat a child for seven hours with a weapon and expect them to live. Nothing less than life in prison is just for these sick fuckers. They'll get out one day which sickens me.

Is spanking an appropriate form of discipline in any situation?

No. You should NEVER lay a hand on a defenseless child even if it is just a spanking. There is nothing wrong with a verbal scolding and it gets the point across without harming the child. Hitting a child shows you have no self control and are not a fit parent. Nothing a little child does deserves that kind of punishment.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Michael Pearl issued the following tactless, indifferent response to Ramsey's words.

"....My five grown children are laughing at your foolish, uninformed criticism of God’s method of child training"

Once you start bringing God into the equation, there is no limit to the number and degree of atrocities that can be committed by man. If you've decided you don't need logic or common sense because you know precisely what "God wants," all bets are off and many of the resulting actions will turn your stomach ......as this one does.

For all the people who claim to have a direct line to God (with the Almighty presumably having their cell phone numbers, for all we know), it would sure be interesting to see God weigh in with what he really thinks of people who claim to know His mind. If that happens at all, it's probably not until you die that you get the message. Too bad.

Until we start getting the word while we're alive, you're always going to see things like this. I'm not against organized religion, but when people start spouting their own beliefs and claiming they come from God, anything........anything........ can happen.

This is just one horrendous example.

 

[Paralyzer Z]

thats sick. like said before i dont care what a damn book says if your child is in critical condition comon sense should kick in and say "uh shes hurt you should stop!" when you bring god up there is no limit to the level of crime that can ocur. thats is an atrocous example of what is possible by humanity

 

[Vintage Nick]

Abso-fucking-lutely disgusting. This is the epitome of supreme arrogance and I believe that 21 years for the dad and 12 years for the mom is way too soft. They both need life in prison, where the inmates could show their hospitality to child murderers.

People wonder why Christians get bad rep. Well...just these past few weeks, a "Christian" caused a terror attack in Norway, and now these "Christians" are found beating the shit out of their children for...what was it again? Oh yeah, MIS-PRONOUNCING A FUCKING WORD.

I love free speech, but there's a limit to what people can say and do. I'd like it if the books were banned from bookstores and the printing company stopped producing Pearl's piece of shit "literature."

 

[Arcade]

It seems like many people confuse spanking with abuse. Spanking a child isn't abuse unless the child is under 4. If it's a simple 2 or 3 wacks on the butt to discipline a child, then that's okay, but I'm not in anyway saying what they did is ok. What they did is sick, violent, and barbaric and they should be locked up for life or at least more than 40 years. They did not spank their children, they beat and abused one of them, and they murdered the other one. I think the author in a way provoked it, but any parent who does that to their children, book or not, is wrong for that.

 

[Kenny Powers]

This story is just as bad if not worse then the Westboro baptist church banishing their own family for wearing a bikini at the beach or chatting to boys online. Its easy to blame Pearl's book or religion in general, but some people are total lunatics regardless. I'm sure this family would have found some lame excuse to endanger their child's life sooner or later.

As far as spanking is concerned, I'm not for it or against it as long as it doesn't cause serious damage. My parents only had warn me and my sister to stop fighting or we would be spanked. Later on priviledges were revoked when we were older.

I think the jail sentence was lenient, but thankfully their children were taken away from them. Pearl seems like an arrogant prick trying to sell his book while mocking this family and other families. I can guarantee there are skeletons in his closet.

 

[Xemmy]

I've made my epic return to the Cigar Lounge!

Do you believe the young girl would still be alive had the parents not read the Pearl book? Or was this bound to happen?
I think there's a good chance that the girl would be alive if not for the Pearl book. The parents are sick for thinking that Pearl was right. Pearl is sick for thinking he's right. But a book is just ideas. Ideas can be used for better or for worse, but some ideas are just bad. Anyone dumb enough to follow these ideas were likely going to find another violent or abusive book to read and follow.

Were the sentences in this case just?

No. Pleading guilty or not, they should be put away for live. They killed a little girl. The excuse, "Well we only meant to beat her, not kill her" really doesn't justify it. And the girl didn't even do anything wrong. These people honestly don't deserve to see the light of another day.

Is spanking an appropriate form of discipline in any situation?
Getting your butt beat isn't that damn bad, but my parents never used a weapon, never came close to causing me to need medical attention, and never over did it.

 

[Awesome_Miz]

I think the sentence was not fair it should have more years like 100 yrs and spanking a kid is ok but to a degree and using a pipe is far from ok what they did was uncalled for in any matter

 

[Good Golly It's Ollie]

I feel like everyone else has already covered LSN's opening points, so I want to add a few of my own.

Yes, this is morally unjust and completely abhorrent and reprehensible. I feel great sympathy for the surviving child, who will now probably develop a problem with all religion, when the truth is that these kind of extremists are in the minority. The rest of us aren't like that. Not to mention the extreme trauma and the fact that she's lost a younger sibling.

Now I see people using the word "Christians" and this horrifying event goes to show, you can't use that word as a generalisation. I am a Christian, of a sort, and I completely condemn these actions spoken of here. There are many different denominations, some very lax, some as we have seen here, very extreme.

One thing I would question though, is How is this book allowed to be published in the first place? Yeah I know, freedom of speech, etc. etc., but even that can be taken too far. It's shameful to allow the publication of something that compromises people's lives.

 

[Jessie Lynn DivaGirl]

The fact that they used some damn book of lies as their Bible makes me sick. That little girl would be alive if they had acted like real parents. I have nothing against spanking, I believe kids do need to be diciplined every now and then, it helps them learn. But beating a child to death??? I don't give a damn what you read, no one deserves that! The parents should be put aeway for what they did and (this is me ranting like a maniac) so should that author for provoking this kind of behavior. I know he has his freedom of speech but at least take away his rights to write and publish books like that!

 

[JW'sGirl]

This is sickening.

Do you believe the young girl would still be alive had the parents not read the Pearl book? Or was this bound to happen?

I don't know...I think some people aren't meant to have kids. Clearly these people weren't. You have to be a moron to not notice that you are killing your child. People that stupid were bound to hurt their kids eventually. Had they not read the book, she may not have died; however, she probably would have been badly hurt either physically or mentally at some point.

Were the sentences in this case just?

Personally, I think they should be in prison for life...without parole...on death row. 21 years for the husband and 12 for the wife. That's way too light for murder, especially the brutal torture of an 8 year-old little girl.

Is spanking an appropriate form of discipline in any situation?

I was spanked once as a kid, when I about 7, for talking back, and my mom immediately apologized because she felt terrible and it didn't even hurt. Honestly, I think it was a pretty stupid punishment. Even if she hadn't apologized, I would've talked back again. The times when my parents took stuff away, those were the times that I listened and stopped doing whatever it was. I don't think spanking is a viable option for punishment. I think it's messed up, personally. My neighbors spanked their son all the time when he was younger and that kid turned out messed up, he thought it was funny when hit him, he would break the rules and then run around the house forcing his parents to chase him. They hit him with a wooden spoon. They still do. He's been arrested several times now. I think teaching kids that violence is ok when someone does something wrong isn't the right thing to do, it raises violent children.

 

[FaceSuperstar]

Any parent would be so crossing the line for beating there kids(s) to death be spanking. They are so totally wrong for doing this. It is so totaly wrong in so many ways wrether they read a book or not. The parents proboly felt this way before they even read the book so reading the book probably just added fuel to the fire for doing this to there child.

Now onto a different note hear. I know im going to have a lot of people against me for this but I just don't really care. Being physical to instill discipline is not a good form of punishment. Anyone who is physical to discipline just doesn't know how to act. So you were out and someone started beating up on you wouldn't you call that unfair and unjust, just saying? Same way with that. There is no reason or warrent EVER for being hit,spanked, etc in any type of situation wrether your a young kid or an older person!

 

[GrandSword]

This story makes me extemely upset for the poor children and disgust for those two people. Their sentances are way too leanient and both deserve life in prison minimum.

To torture and murder a defenceless child that relies on your protection makes me sick to my stomach. All I can say is if these guys believe so much in God, then I'm sure he's going to send them to hell.

These two murderers obviously are evil or a insane to do what they did and hopefully someone in jail does the same thing to them.

 

[dude_d_dude]

I'm a moderately devout Christian and I can tell you that all that shit was exactly that, SHIT.
Yeah the Bible says "Train up a child in the way they should go" but it doesn't say "beat the living shit out of your kids until they're die"
Yeah it says "Spare the rod spoil the child" but I can guarantee you it doesn't mean break the damn rod over the child's head.

As a Christian I'm disgusted over these idiots misinterpreting verses and just piling on even MORE reasons for everyone to hate religion.
I don't blame any of you for disliking religion after seeing this but please realize that not all Christians are fucktards like them.

I believe spanking should be used sparsely and only as a disciplinary tool, NEVER to just PUMMEL a child that was NOT it's original intention.

Believe me, a swift smack to the buttocks will clear your head more than it's given credit for, back in the Caribbean beatings were common as all hell, BUT THEY WORKED.

Today's kids fear nothing because we're always hearing about "Talking things out" and "Violence begets more violence", now believe me there is a big amount of truth to those statements, but really sometimes a kid does need a SMALL spanking to understand that what they did was wrong. When you do something wrong and you get spanked it TEACHES you a lesson and you never make that mistake again, a certain fear is present and you avoid engaging in mischief. That's what young people today are missing, fear of consequences, they do whatever they want because THEY CAN, they'll get meager slaps on the wrists and they KNOW it. They'll push your buttons and drive you mad and they know you won't do shit.

Spanking proves them wrong and believe me it gets a message through, sparingly, in moderation, it really does work.

As for the sentences they got, they both deserve life and may their bones rot in the pits of Hell.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Do you believe the young girl would still be alive had the parents not read the Pearl book? Or was this bound to happen?

Chances are it probably would have happened eventually. The book didn't make the parents religious nuts but I'm sure it helped speed up the process. Blaming a book for ones actions is a scapegoat plain and simple, that's like back in the late 90's when Marilyn Manson got some blame for the Columbine Massacre. It's obvious the parents were fucked in the head and easily manipulated yes, but it was gonna happen in my opinion anyways. On a side note that book really needs to be pulled from shelves, that's ridiculous.


Were the sentences in this case just?



What those 2 parents did was one of the most fucked up things I've ever heard. Beating a child with a pipe to death in the name of god? ARE U FUCKING KIDDING ME? Even going at a kid with that type of weapon is just for anyone going to jail in my opinion anyways, there is a reason most schools no longer allow corporal punishment to be used. Frankly I think just going to jail is light for them, if they want to really be punished I would do the same thing they did to those kids to teach them a lesson. They basically treated their kids like they were an abused pet (and you would even go to jail for that in some places), maybe if they were treated like an abused dog as well they would actually get it. I don't believe in things like that but there are always special circumstances. Have the husband and wife get beaten with a pipe for hours all over their body (every month) for their entire sentence, then they would get it, or die, but frankly for what they did I would have NO REMORSE if they were given the chair.


Is spanking an appropriate form of discipline in any situation?

I think its fine but you only do it to make a point, not to physically harm your kid. For example, your kid steals (that's extreme) and gets caught, I think if a parent spanks the kid for a few minutes with his HAND only then there is no harm, the kid will feel it, get the point and will be fine the next day. Its ok to spank but only in special circumstances and for the kid to get the point but it should never get to a point where a kid is being physically harmed and in danger.

 

[mrhexum]

Wow.... stories like this just make me sick.

There is a huge difference between "spanking" and "abusing" a child. When you use anything other than your hand, that to me is when it becomes abuse. This also really makes me question our adoption screening process.

These people who mindlessly follow the words of some whack jobs book on how to abuse a child in the name of God are the same type of ******s that put guys like Hitler in power. As ridiculous as this Pearl dude seems, you really can't blame his book. Just because he wrote it doesn't mean it should be followed as law.

Why is it that it seems the people who believe in things are the ones always taking lives?

 

[Davi323]

To Train Up a Child is not the book that Christians follow. We follow the Bible. I am a christian, and I claim 0% kinship with these people. What they did has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity.

 

[Bender]

This is truly fucked up,

Now, this is why I am an Atheist. I wouldn't be sucked into a stupid fucking religious guides on how to raise your child... It's like, you fucking beat them? Were you beaten as a child? Did you see other parents beating their own child? NO.

May the parents perish in the depths of hell once their sorry asses are thrown out of this already unhealthy environment called "Earth."

 

[LSN80]

To Train Up a Child is not the book that Christians follow. We follow the Bible. I am a christian, and I claim 0% kinship with these people. What they did has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity.

I never said, in any way, that these people were of Christian pursuasion. What I did say was that Pearl claims his book to be that of the fundamentalist Christian movement, the faith under which he claims to follow. The biggest problem here is not that you claim no kinship with "these people". The problem is that these people do claim kinship with you. They believe themselves to be Christian, same as you. And how does Christianity and religion in general get the most hardline coverage in social media? Sadly, it's due to cases of extremists like this. These people believed they were following the tenants of their faith by following Pearl's book, albeit to disastrous results. Pearl erroneously interpreted the teachings of the Bible, and the parents did the same, to a greater extreme. They certainly didn't spare the rod and spoil the child, did they?

 

[Susie273]

This is so gross,….!
Why is it that parent or who so ever who brings up a child wants them to adhere by a certain set of monotonous rules..????
To all frustrated bi***es ,….don’t vent out dispairity of your impotent dreams on your kids…!