Free Will: science v. religion

[Tastycles]

My expertise at University is in the history ofAstrology and it's postition as a science. Until about 400 years ago, astrology was held in the same esteem as physics. Kepler, who is the reason we believe that the Earth orbits the sun, and who explained the motions of the planets, was doing so to get a better understanding of astrology. Galileo was also an astrologer.

The only people who were sceptical about astrology at first were Christians from around the times of the crusades because they believed that the whole thing hampered free will, which is obviously a ke cornerstone of Christianity. After all, how can you be judged by God if you are not responsible for your own actions.

Astrology and religion were reconciled, and then astrology was debunked,so the problem vanished, but now it is back.

We are getting ever closer to being able to reduce everything to elementary particles which are goverened by the laws of physics. This means that everything is down to matter and motion, so it is impossible to understand how humans could have anykind of free will.

This is obviously a problem for the Church, and I absolutely guarantee you that if they find the Higgs boson, this will be Evolution part 2, with the church and science at loggerheads over free will.

So what do you think? Do you think that we have free will and are responsible for each of our own actions, or is it simply a case of elementary particles acting upon each other that gives us the illusion of sentinence?

 

[Minor League Brian]

I think that that's a load of rubbish.

You can say this is merely the illusion of sentience, but I'm pretty damn sure I know who I am. You're asking that question, doesn't that make you sentient? By questioning ones self and ones own environment, you're sentient. You're self aware, which I'm pretty sure "sentient" is broken down into. Here's a rough definition of the term, for those who don't get my meaning.

"Sentience is the ability to feel or perceive subjectively"

You can say its new, but everything is already broken down into nothing more then chemicals, and reactions, and particles getting excited. I'll I've you an example, and I'll use Pheromones as my basis. For a quick sum up of what pheromones are, they're chemicals that trigger different feelings and or responses, depending on the type. Shit, pheromones are one of the keys towards courtship in all types of animals (including Humans), but that doesn't mean jack-shit. Basically, if little Sally over here's body is releasing those chemicals telling big papa Jon that she's ready and willin', you're logic would dictate that he'd follow through and hop on her right then and there, but he doesn't. He can fight them. That's his free will.

From the general statement you said up there, we do what we're told simply through the base chemicals of our existence, when that entire theory is refuted simply because our bodies tell us to do a shit load of things, and we decide to ignore a shit load of things our bodies tell us to do. That is free will.

 

[Tastycles]

I think that that's a load of rubbish.

I do too, but I can't really give a rational reason why I think it. I believe in free will, because I genuinely believe I make the decisions in my life, but when you try and think about it scientifically, you can't.

You can say this is merely the illusion of sentience, but I'm pretty damn sure I know who I am. You're asking that question, doesn't that make you sentient?

Not necessarily, the chemical and physical reactions that make you feel sentinent are not nothing more than that, just reactions, that when coupled with other reactions cause the feeling of being sentinent. Think of it as one of those pictures made from lots of tiny ones. From a distance it looks like someone has made a big picture, but closer up you can just see that it is an illusion created by smaller pieces fitting together.

By questioning ones self and ones own environment, you're sentient. You're self aware, which I'm pretty sure "sentient" is broken down into. Here's a rough definition of the term, for those who don't get my meaning.

"Sentience is the ability to feel or perceive subjectively"

The physical interactions that make you move are, for whatever reason, linked directly to the physical reactions explained above that make you think you want to move. This sounds ridiculous, but it is perfectly logical.

You can say its new, but everything is already broken down into nothing more then chemicals, and reactions, and particles getting excited. I'll I've you an example, and I'll use Pheromones as my basis. For a quick sum up of what pheromones are, they're chemicals that trigger different feelings and or responses, depending on the type. Shit, pheromones are one of the keys towards courtship in all types of animals (including Humans), but that doesn't mean jack-shit. Basically, if little Sally over here's body is releasing those chemicals telling big papa Jon that she's ready and willin', you're logic would dictate that he'd follow through and hop on her right then and there, but he doesn't. He can fight them. That's his free will.

From the general statement you said up there, we do what we're told simply through the base chemicals of our existence, when that entire theory is refuted simply because our bodies tell us to do a shit load of things, and we decide to ignore a shit load of things our bodies tell us to do. That is free will.

What you've said is true, there are chemical and nervous impuslses that we resist, but it doesn't prove free will at all. It just proves that there are conflicting chemical reactions with nervous impulses, and the nervous impulses are dominant. If a computer is performing a task that it has been programmed to do, but overheats, it will tun itself off even though that is not doing what its supposed to do. If a person is being "told" to do something by hormones, e.g. sleep with a woman, they can still override the signal because of other predispositions ingrained in human psyche.

There is no difference between the actions of the computer and the man in that instance, it is not necessarily free will.


My overall point is this: I believe in free will, because I just don't understand how I could not be reacting on my on whim. However, by taking physics down to a quantum level, means that I cannot logically understand what free will really is at all.

 

[Legendary_Undertaker]

Wow I was just thinking about this same thing. As A quantum Major we are taught that all thins happen now as a reaction to what we are doing but because we want them to happen so as far a Quantum goes then yes free will does exist

But if you look at the other siide of the coin then you'll get the idea that why we are here and what we're doing here is no accident. Meaning our entire live are already planned out for us in advance. Consider this

A baby is born into a family. Before that child is born he/she had no idea who their family is and why they do the things they do. Other than being concieved by the parents that child has no earthly ties to that family

Now if free will does exsist in this form of science then why isn't that particular child given a choice wether to be born into this family or another? why isn't this chld given a choice as to wether they are male of female. why aren't they given a choice to be born at all?

IMO free will is a state of mind. The human brain only reacts to a given "choice" so in order to sustain human interaction/evolution the brrain has to discuse(if I spelleed that right) the obvious solution to a problem as a choice meaning: You know what must be done even before the time comes to do it. So with that said how can free will really exist.

Bottom line is the lines between religion and science are blurred because neither side will bend. Science provides explainations to problems while religion says "heres what to believe now believe it!!!) Do I believe in free will?.....NO!! prove to me that it exist!! Everything in the universe has a place, a cause, a reason. you don't decide your fate just like you didn't decide to be here in the 1st place. So if you don't decide wether you're born or when you die how can you honestly think you can decide anything else? free will is a state of mind nothing more