First Round: Lexington - Rhino vs. Rick Martel

[CynicSteve]

It's gotta be Martel. I've never been a huge fan of Rhino. One of the first matches I remember seeing Martel wrestle live was against Hercules. A very similar empty from the neck up power house. Martel outsmarted Herc, I have no doubt he could do the same here.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

If I asked anybody to name any Rick Martel moments, at least 75% would relate to SummerSlam 1992, such is the popularity of Shawn Michaels. Rick Martel might've been technically proficient, but he's better known for wearing a large badge and using perfume to blind opponents.

He was a good performer, but people are only voting for him because of nostalgia. Being a prominent member of AWA, big deal almost everybody who was a star there when on to become bigger somehwere else or they went to a promotion where they developed a gimmick that people actually remember. Also, the AWA, the most boring promotion ever.

The Gore would easily floor somebody like Martel and I don't know how Martel could properly apply a Boston Crab to somebody as squat as Rhyno.

 

[deem]

Rhino with relative ease imo. Martel was great at what he was - a small, gay superstar to get crowd heat and pull off the odd upset. I like him. I cannot ever remember him beating anyone with the power of a Rhino.

Rhino wins it via DQ as Martel sprays Arrogance in the eyes mid-Gore.

 

[D-Man]

Rhino with relative ease imo. Martel was great at what he was - a small, gay superstar to get crowd heat and pull off the odd upset. I like him. I cannot ever remember him beating anyone with the power of a Rhino.

Rhino wins it via DQ as Martel sprays Arrogance in the eyes mid-Gore.

People really need to stop thinking like this guy.

Newsflash, everyone: RICK MARTEL'S CAREER STRETCHES FAR BEFORE HIS STINT AS THE MODEL IN THE WWF.

I will never understand the smarks' undying love for ECW's former champions and competitors. We need to measure them outside of the hardcore, invincible environment of ECW and put them in more reputable promotions that actually involved rules and actual WRESTLING in their matches.

In what world could Rhino outwrestle Rick Martel?? Rhino was a failure in WWE and a failure in TNA. That basically means that once you took him out of a hardcore, second-rate environment of ECW, he wouldn't be able to keep up with wrestlers that actually had wrestling skill. Rhino is nothing more than a big, dumb animal in a wrestling ring.

And furthermore, for all of you that voted against Goldberg in his matchup with Stu Hart, you should be using the same principles to vote in this match. Rhino is as stupid as you all think Goldberg is. Rhino is a dumb animal in the same way that you all feel Goldberg is.

Voting in favor of Rhino is saying he could defeat a man that held the AWA title for TWO FUCKING YEARS in a promotion and at a time when the man was facing (and defeating) men like Jumbo Tsuruta, Ric Flair, Jimmy Garvin, and Nick Bockwinkle (a man that not even Hulk Hogan could beat). It's total bullshit to dismiss all of these accomplishments that Martel had and give a nod to a stinky shitbox like Rhino because he had ONE MOVE that was emphasized by commentators. As far as I'm concerned, you can thank Joey Styles for Rhino's pushes in ECW. If it weren't for his obsession with screaming "GORE! GORE!", Rhino wouldn't have been made out to be this monster that everyone thinks he is. The guy is a failure... period.

Please guys... be smart and vote for a man that held a reputable championship for two straight years over men like Nick Bockwinkle and Jumbo Tsuruta, instead of voting for a man that held an ECW championship for less than three months, various midcard titles for short stints in the WWE, and the TNA title for two days.

VOTE FOR RICK MARTEL.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

I will never understand the smarks' undying love for ECW's former champions and competitors. We need to measure them outside of the hardcore, invincible environment of ECW and put them in more reputable promotions that actually involved rules and actual WRESTLING in their matches.

Rhino was failry successful within WWE, he was feuding with Jericho & The Rock just before he broke his neck in 2001.

In what world could Rhino outwrestle Rick Martel??

In what world could The Great Khali outwrestle Bret Hart. He couldn't, but he could hit him with a power move for the win.

Rhino was a failure in WWE and a failure in TNA.

He was a failure in WWE post 2003, but he's had a pretty successful TNA career. And why isn't ECW being mentioned again? Because they had no rules? But the wrestler still competed in matches.

Rhino is nothing more than a big, dumb animal in a wrestling ring.

It's worked for plenty in the past.

Voting in favor of Rhino is saying he could defeat a man that held the AWA title for TWO FUCKING YEARS in a promotion and at a time when the man was facing (and defeating) men like Jumbo Tsuruta, Ric Flair, Jimmy Garvin, and Nick Bockwinkle (a man that not even Hulk Hogan could beat).

It's hard to call, with Rhyno not being a wrestler in 1984. Rhino might've/might not have been a success in 1984. Rick Martel might've/might not have been a success in 2001.

It's total bullshit to dismiss all of these accomplishments that Martel had and give a nod to a stinky shitbox like Rhino because he had ONE MOVE that was emphasized by commentators.

It's a fairly close poll, which tells me that almost half of the people that voted aren't dismissing his accomplishments, the other half are probably taking into consideration power and that ''ONE MOVE'' in which very few people have kicked out from.

As far as I'm concerned, you can thank Joey Styles for Rhino's pushes in ECW. If it weren't for his obsession with screaming "GORE! GORE!", Rhino wouldn't have been made out to be this monster that everyone thinks he is.

Joey Styles did the same with 80% of the ECW roster, shame Justin Credible didn't catch on as much as Rhyno.

 

[FromTheSouth]

But Jake, I think people are dismissing Martel to an extent. Look at all the posts that call him The Model and speak of sprayign Arrogance. They remember, or ahve seen Youtube videos, but no one wants to remember that he was AWA champion during a peak time. His wins over Flair, Garvin, Bockwinkle, and Tsuruta speak for themselves, but they are being yelled over by "Gore! Gore! Gore!"

Do you think Rhyno could have gotten wins over the the same guys that Martel did? Of course not. That one move may be something to remember, but assuming that a competitor as smart and accomplished as Martel wouldn't avoid it is ludicrous. You wouldn't assume he could put that move on Flair and call it a day.

Furthermore, Martel's offence centered around weakening his man to set up the Boston Crab, which means he would be working the knee and the back. Taking out the knee and the back keep Rhyno from being able to get low and launch into The Gore. From the opening bell, Martel would be limiting Rhyno's ability to hit him with a powerful Gore. A halfassed limpy Gore wouldn't do it. You even admit that all Rhyno could do is hit him with one power move, but Martel's offensive focus would limit the power of that move. Then what is Rhyno left with?

 

[Y 2 Jake]

But Jake, I think people are dismissing Martel to an extent. Look at all the posts that call him The Model and speak of sprayign Arrogance.

People are going to bring that up as it's the part of his career in which he had a truly intresting character. It's that part of his career that amkes people remember him, without him being The Model how many people would actually recall his AWA run?

Do you think Rhyno could have gotten wins over the the same guys that Martel did? Of course not.

I think it's hard to say, there was nobody like Rhino back then. That could've been in his favour or it could've gone against him.

That one move may be something to remember, but assuming that a competitor as smart and accomplished as Martel wouldn't avoid it is ludicrous. You wouldn't assume he could put that move on Flair and call it a day.

The Gore has been presented as being a match finishing move for 10 years now. It's very well protected within wrestling, I think it's perfectly feasable that he could hit Ric Flair in his prime with it and it'd end the match.

Maybe it's because of the promotion he's currently in, and the people he faced in WWE & ECW, but the Gore is probably one of the only genunine match finishers in wrestling today. Almost every other move in wrestling get's kicked out of at some point.

Taking out the knee and the back keep Rhyno from being able to get low and launch into The Gore.

Take out somebodys back and they're going to be hunched down in a Gore like position.

You even admit that all Rhyno could do is hit him with one power move, but Martel's offensive focus would limit the power of that move. Then what is Rhyno left with?

I also don't see how Rhino is a one-move-man when he's an offensive wrestler. His main crime is not having more signature moves. He frequently uses belly-to-belly suplexes and he used to use a piledriver which I'm assuming is a legal move in this tournament.

Martel might be a diligent technical wrestler, but that doesn't work on every opponent. Looking at the list of wrestlers he faced during his AWA reign, they're all similar in size and shape. What worked against them might or might not work against somebody with such a strange physique as Rhino.

I'm also fairly certain Rhyno doesn't even have knees.

 

[D-Man]

I also don't see how Rhino is a one-move-man when he's an offensive wrestler. His main crime is not having more signature moves. He frequently uses belly-to-belly suplexes and he used to use a piledriver which I'm assuming is a legal move in this tournament.

Martel might be a diligent technical wrestler, but that doesn't work on every opponent. Looking at the list of wrestlers he faced during his AWA reign, they're all similar in size and shape. What worked against them might or might not work against somebody with such a strange physique as Rhino.

I'm also fairly certain Rhyno doesn't even have knees.

This is the only part of Jake's rebuttle that makes any realistic sense, so I'll only reply to it.

But I'll make it really simple: You're basing most of your argument on the fact that a quick and powerful move like the Gore can end any match instantly. While that may be possible, so is just about anything in the world of pro-wrestling. However, I'm going to vote for a man with a better track record against former champions... not a man that couldn't reach any wrestling pinnacles for more than three months in his entire career.

Plus, if you say Rhino could beat Martel, then you're also saying Rhino could beat Tsuruta, Bockwinkle, and all of the other legends of the AWA that Martel dominated over for two straight years as their champion. And many of those men went on to become WWE superstars and legends. So Rhino can beat legends of the WWE? FUCK no.

A vote for Rhino is a vote for one-moved bullshit. Fuck him and his greasy hair. He's done nothing significant for the sport while Martel was a legend in the late 70's and early 80's. Even his tag team experiences outweigh Rhino's "accomplishments."

Be smart, everyone. Don't base this on a 'one-shot kill'. Vote for Rick Martel.

 

[The Brain]

D-Man has already made a great case for Martel, but I’ll throw in my two cents. Martel is clearly the choice here. One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is Martel was a two time WWF tag team champion in the early 80’s even before he was AWA champion. He and Tony Garea defeated two of the top tag teams of that era in The Wild Samoans and The Moondogs.

After that he went to the AWA and had the year and a half long title reign that’s already been mentioned here. I want to stress that the AWA of the mid 80’s was a much more credible promotion than ECW was in the early 00’s. When Martel came back to the WWF he got another tag title run with Tito Santana. This time he defeated one of the greatest tag teams of all time in the Hart Foundation. In fact Martel made Jim Neidhart submit to the boston crab. Neidhart is someone physically similar to Rhyno (Monsoon even referred to him as the big rhino quite often). As the Model he feuded with many top stars including Santana, Brutus Beefcake, Jake Roberts, Bret Hart, and Shawn Michaels. He didn’t get any singles championships, but they were hard to come by in those days. There were many top stars who never got a singles championship back then.

Rhyno’s claim to fame is he was the last ECW champion. He won the title in 2001 after all the other big names left for WCW or WWF. He was the best of the leftovers. He won his title by beating the Sandman immediately after Sandman won the title in a three way TLC match. This was like Hogan beating Yokozuna for the title at WrestleMania IX, something often criticized on these forums. When Rhyno made it to the WWF he got a brief run as hardcore champion. WWE was passing titles out like candy at that time. Even so the hardcore title meant nothing. Remember when Godfather’s ho was champion? Not exactly a prestigious title. Rhyno looked to have potential in WWE, but he never regained his momentum after the neck injury. He was a lower mid card competitor.

ECW was fun while it lasted. It technically died in 2001, but may as well have about a year and a half earlier. Rhyno just wasn’t an impact player. Martel is the way to go.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Rhino is one of these ECW wrestlers that I still hear fans raving about even after all this time, but I've never seen what was so special about him really. Rhino is someone that was a dominant power in a smaller promotion but never really made it once he started working in larger ones. Not really big enough to be a serious powerhouse and too big to be a serious high flyer, Rhino was always just kind of there. Rhino was the last ECW Champion before the original ECW rolled belly up and had a two day run with the NWA World Heavyweight Championship back in late 2005. Probably his two biggest accomplishments overall.

Rick Martel is someone that I think is more than a little underappreciated. I always thought he was a pretty damn good wrestler in the ring and had some impressive credentials. During his first run in the WWF in the very early 80s, Martel was a successful tag team wrestler and won the WWF Tag Team Championship twice with Tony Garea and both runs were pretty decent. In the late 80s, in the WWF, he and Tito Santana formed Strike Force and I always thought they were a damn good team. They had a good 5 or 6 month run with the straps before Martel's heel turn. After that, it just kinda went downhill. Martel was someone I could have easily seen as having runs with the Intercontinental Championship, but it just didn't happen. Martel's biggest claim to fame, however, is probably the fact that he was the AWA World Heavyweight Champion for about a year and a half. He beat Jumbo Tsuruta for the title in Tokyo on May 13, 1984 and held it until December 29, 1985.

When I just look overall at the careers of both these two, Martel's body of work just completely outshines Rhino's. If this were a hardcore match, I'd give it to Rhino hands down. But, since it's not, I'm going with Martel.

 

[Mr. Truth]

Honestly I never particularly liked Rhino. Martel beat Jumbo Tsuruta for the AWA title when it still meant something. Rhino just had his little Gore move. That's really all the guy had going for him. Based on that, I'm going with Rick Martel over Rhino.

 

[Ferbian]

I'm voting Rick Martel.

I must admit I don't know much of him, but hell he can't possibly be worse than Rhino, yes I've always found Rhino boring or overrated, and quite frankly even though Rhino might be a more original person as opposed to Goldberg, I still think Rhino is a Goldberg rip off with the attempt to look intense and the gore.

Also if we really have to get into it, Rick Martel has held more titles, and by definition has most likely put on better matches any day.

In my eyes, Rick could be going into the Hall of Fame if you ask me, Rhino.. not in this year, decade, century, ever!

 

[8thwotwATG]

In this one I see Martel using his speed and ring savvy to stay away from Rhyno's power early on,using armdrags, dropkicks etc. He'd use constant movement to keep Rhyno moving, therefore expending his wind. I'm sure that Rhyno would probably mount a comeback for a bit, but Martel could brawl for short periods of time, he was tougher than expected. I say Martel takes Rhyno out into the deep water of a longer match, then catches him with a small package or sunset flip to get the 1-2-3.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Plus, if you say Rhino could beat Martel, then you're also saying Rhino could beat Tsuruta, Bockwinkle, and all of the other legends of the AWA that Martel dominated over for two straight years as their champion.

On any given day, yes. See below.

While that may be possible, so is just about anything in the world of pro-wrestling.

And many of those men went on to become WWE superstars and legends.

That's the thing with the AWA isn't it, it was a feeder group. While it might've been an established promotion and their world title might've been important at one point in it's history, almost every major star who worked for that company went on to be bigger or more popular elsewhere.

He's done nothing significant for the sport while Martel was a legend in the late 70's and early 80's. Even his tag team experiences outweigh Rhino's "accomplishments."

It's been established that Rick Martel had a two year AWA title reign, no doubt it's a real accomplishment. He went over Jumbo Tsuruta, Ric Flair, Jimmy Garvin, and Nick Bockwinkle. But throughout that two year period, he didn't participate in one great match. Almost all of them randing from good to very good, but none that you'd consider that great. Which really is an accomplishment when you consider who he faced during his title reign.

A long title reign doesn't mean shit if you don't do anything with it. It's better to hold a title for a couple of months and be part of some brilliant matches and angles, than have a long title reign that's not distinguished by anything you did in the ring.

Rick Martel was talented but generic throughout his title reign. Actual 70's & 80's legends, like, Jumbo Tsuruta, Ric Flair, Jimmy Garvin, and Nick Bockwinkle did things throughout their reigns that people actually remember.

 

[deem]

You guys are incredible - I'd change my vote to Martel if I could, I am thoroughly convinced.

I must admit I was guilty of basing my knowledge of Martel on his WWF run, without ever seeing him outside the Federation. I'll check out some of his former work on youtube some time when I have a minute. I am glad that it looks like Martel is advancing.

 

[FromTheSouth]

People are going to bring that up as it's the part of his career in which he had a truly intresting character. It's that part of his career that amkes people remember him, without him being The Model how many people would actually recall his AWA run?

People could see it. Am I allowed to mention that ESPNClassic shows Classic AWA? Well, I guess I did. Anyway, if this debate served as nothing else, I hope some people take advantage of the ability to see the matches again, all these years later.

I think it's hard to say, there was nobody like Rhino back then. That could've been in his favour or it could've gone against him.

Maybe, but if his best distinction is being the prototype for the "unimpressive monster" gimmick, he isn't worthy of a vote?

The Gore has been presented as being a match finishing move for 10 years now. It's very well protected within wrestling, I think it's perfectly feasable that he could hit Ric Flair in his prime with it and it'd end the match.

Flair would find a way to punch him the nuts and win. Martel would immediately work the knees and back to try and prepare him for the crab. It will reduce the explosiveness of the move, making it easier to kick out of.

Maybe it's because of the promotion he's currently in, and the people he faced in WWE & ECW, but the Gore is probably one of the only genunine match finishers in wrestling today. Almost every other move in wrestling get's kicked out of at some point.

The Gore gets kicked out of all the time by anyone one step above the level of Curry Man. I think Jessie Neal may have kicked out after a Gore. I am likely making that up though. Hey, Rhyno sold his gimmick well and built a following, I just think someone that has wrestled at the elite level, and won like Martel has would have an answer for The Gore.

Take out somebodys back and they're going to be hunched down in a Gore like position.

But unable to explode. If an offensive lineman, who fire out from the same basic permission has a hurt back, he can't launch himself into the block. It destroys the dynamic without that bit of spring. It turns from a tackle to a shoulder block.

I also don't see how Rhino is a one-move-man when he's an offensive wrestler. His main crime is not having more signature moves. He frequently uses belly-to-belly suplexes and he used to use a piledriver which I'm assuming is a legal move in this tournament.

But all he had was a finisher and three rudimentary wrestling moves and a bunch of punches and corner attacks.

Martel might be a diligent technical wrestler, but that doesn't work on every opponent. Looking at the list of wrestlers he faced during his AWA reign, they're all similar in size and shape. What worked against them might or might not work against somebody with such a strange physique as Rhino.

I'm also fairly certain Rhyno doesn't even have knees.

Well, if that's the case, i don't know...