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Discussion in 'The Tokyo Region' started by klunderbunker, Apr 19, 2010.
Location: Rupp Arena, Lexington, Kentucky.
Voting is open for 4 days.
I think it's probably better if Raven goes through, for the sake of the tournament, but I also think that is the right choice. Rocca had one of the only American matches from before 1960 that I have found remotely watchable against Lou Thesz. He won titles and was immensely popular in his day, in New York. Unfortunately for Rocca, this isn't in New York, and a man from an era when location meant it all, that's not going to be enough here. People remember the hardcore aspect of Raven's career, but he's actually won a lot of conventional titles too, and I think outside of New York, he'd take this quite easily.
I am asking people to do a bit of research before blindly picking Raven because it is a name you recognize. Rocca was a far bigger name in this business during his time. He was by far one of the most popular faces in the 50s and opened doors for wresting to return to MSG in that time period.
Rocca, for his contribution to the sport.
Rocca may have contibuted but this Raven. He has to be one of the scariest performers out of the ring as well as in. This guy can screw your head up BAD! Raven knows what his opponents weaknesses are and he'll exploit them with Rocca. This is the guy who brainwashed the Sandman's children. This guy is the man who Tommy dreamer could NEVER beat. Raven's a former ECW Champion and a truly impressive performer both in and out of the ring.
I'm voting Raven for the same reason I would vote Shaquille O'Neal would beat Bill Russell: evolution. We take what people taught us and grow from it. Rocca may have been a great performer with his headlock and armbar, but its 2010. We'll use our other arm to grab a bat and shove it down your throat! LOL. But seriously, Raven's pain threshold is something Rocca has never dealt with before. And I don't know how many DDT's Rocca's dealt with, but once Raven drops him on his head, 1-2-3
Because Rocca didn't help the sport evolve? He was the original high flyer in the WWWF, and I think every wrestler who ever climbed to the top of the ropes owes Rocca for that.
Tasty mentioned the match with Thesz, and you can find it on youtube, its really great seeing Rocca go. He was the man that helped the WWWF first grow when they gave the belt to Rogers. Rogers didn't turn out to be that great, but Rocca always drew, even creating the sell out record for Madison Square Garden at one point.
The man who Argentina and Italy both claim to be one if their biggest talents, you should look into voting Rocca.
Rocca was a great wrestler back in the WWWF era, But I honestly could say that I don't know a lot about him.
Raven was the reason why I started watching ECW. He was just awesome in the Extreme land. He's not a good wrestler, but he always used to give us a good match with any one of his opponents.
So I'll give my vote to Raven.
Raven will cut a promo 2 weeks before the match come in and have blood all over the place within 10 minutes hit his ddt 3 times for the win raven is the man
Could we at least spell his name right? It's Antonino Rocca, not Antonio. And of course he goes over. He helped add a whole new dimension to wrestling.
I've never been a fan of Raven and I think this not being hardcore doesn't favor him. Yes he can wrestle a normal match, but Rocca is a legend and I'm voting for him here just based on his contributions to the biz.
Raven's one of my all time favorite wrestlers, and I've never seen an Antonio Rocca match. And if I did, I'm sure no match or interview you could ever show me throughout his career could come close to the matches and interviews Raven gave throughout his glorious career. Rocca might be a legend to some people, but there's just absolutely no chance in hell his body of work comes anyway near matching Raven's. No chance. And because of that, Raven deserves to advance.
Antonio Rocca was the original high-flyer. He's more than likely responsible for guys like Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guerrero, and even Jimmy Snuka getting popular with the fans. He was so popular in his day that he even showed up in the Superman comic! Having said that, Raven is one of the reasons ECW is ingrained into wrestling history. His promos are the stuff of legend, his in-ring abilities are vastly underrated, and his feud with Tommy Dreamer is a how-to when it comes to a perfect feud. Rocca is responsible for a style, while Raven is responsible for much more.
Raven is a trash wrestler who did trash matches. Without a trashcan full of bullshit, Raven gets outclassed. Find video of a Rocca/Thesz match and you will see skill, speed, and power - and lots of chest hair. Jesus, those men were hairy.
That point aside, Rocca would just outclass Raven in every sense of the word.
I had to youtube some of Rocca's matches.
Raven would use his mic skills and mental psychology and attempt to get into Roccas head but in the end, Roccas experience would prevail.
Roccas foundation of sound wrestling would be too much for Ravens hardcore based wrestling.
This is another case where an international legend and superstar is going to get beaten by nothing more than a familiar name.
As usual, ECW's cult following is in full effect, and they're all clicking the button to vote for Raven. But why?? No one has convinced me that Raven and his bullshit, racy storylines could ever top Antonia Rocca... a man that defeated many legends of the sport during a time when shoot-wrestling was still prominent in the sport. That makes him a LEGITIMATELY tough wrestler, which is more than Raven's proverbs could even do for him.
I understand Raven's championships and scary nature, but I've never seen his appeal. I know that fans take a liking to him because of his morbid nature and evil persona, but I feel this is the only reason why belts were put on him. Cult followings draw dollars, and Raven did his part. But we're supposed to be judging a kayfabe wrestling match and I can't see Raven going over Rocca, an accomplished and legitimately tough wrestler.
Vote for Rocca, everyone.
Raven was in the Marine Crops, D-Man, so yes... he is legitimately tough. Plus, all you have to do is watch his matches throughout his career to see how much punishment he could withstand.
Also, what's this bullshit I keep reading that Rocca was some kind of innovator for future high flyers of the business? GTFO with that bullshit. Anybody who knows anything about the history of this business knows that Satoru Sayama was the first true high flyer of professional wrestling. That's not an opinion, simply a fact.
So, yeah... when your best argument is that Rocco could shoot (Something that's unproven and even if it were fact, then it doesn't matter because so could Ken Shamrock, but does that mean he should beat Raven? I think not.), was an innovative high-flyer (complete BS), and that he beat legends while not naming a single one... yeah, the argument for Rocca is weak.
The fact of the matter is, Raven helped transform the business forever. ECW built their company around that character, and they thrived on it for over 2 and a half years. Raven carried that company to pay-per-view, before heading off to WCW. Moreover, Raven was really the first wrestler to wear a t-shirt and pair of jeans as an outfit to compete with in the ring, so he was innovative in that way as well.
Raven's simply had the more entertaining career, and the one that we all witnessed. Show me one Rocca match as good as Raven's matches against Dreamer, Benoit, Pillman (for anyone who thinks Raven could only work the "trash" style as some ignorantly put it, watch his match against Pillman at Beach Blast 1992), DDP, Goldberg, Rhino, Jeff Hardy, ect. Show one feud Rocca had that is anywhere near as entertaining as Raven's against Dreamer and The Sandman. You can't do it, and that's why Raven deserves to win. Bottom line.
People voting for Rocca are either strict ECW haters, or are trying to pass themselves off as if they're true historians of the business, when most likely you wouldn't know jackshit about the guy if it weren't for Wikipedia and Yotube.
Sure; I'l get in on this. Rocca wins.
Rocca is faster. Rocca is more resilient. Rocca has better cardio. Rocca has a bether technical base. Rocca is more innovative in all aspects of wresting that don't involve setting people on fire. Rocca is more significant to wresting. Rocca actually drew money. Rocca was more popular. Rocca is more accomplished. Rocca once won a fall against Lou Thesz with a torture rack (Argentine Backbreaker).
Is that enough for you?
Rocca held what was to all intents and purposes the original pre courser to the WWE Championship four around four years, and during that period be was the highest drawing professional wrestler in the entire world. The man was a legend. According to smark deity Dave Meltzar, Rocca is, even today, ranked as the 13th highest drawing wrestler in the history of the business. Raven is of course nowhere in the list, since he's a comparative nobody.
Rocca was the first out and out high flyer to succeed in the US. He was doing Frankensteiners before Big Poppa Pump was even born. He's has success against some of the biggest legends in the history of the business such as Thesz, Sammartino and Rogers. In 1962 he wrestled Superman on the cover of #155, and whilst I don't know the result I'm quietly confident of a Rocca victory.
Rocca regularly partook in matches that went up to the 60 minute mark (less so that other guys from the time period, but he still had the capability) so there is absolutely no doubting that his stamina and endurance surpass Raven by a comfortable measure.
Raven was never touted as a strong technical (hitting people with chairs for his fortay, which I don't think he's allowed to do here), and whilst Rocca was also not a technical wrestler, he was working in the time of the great technicians, and the fact that he could go hold for hold with guys like Thesz proves that he was confident in his own right.
So we've got speed, ability and endurance down. I reckon that's about all we need. And the end of the day, it's fucking Antonino Rocca verses a guy who never made it above a cult following. No contest, and anyone who says otherwise doesn't have the first clue what they're talking about.
I'll say. He is the original high flier. Think about the moments we wouldn't have had he never climbed the top rope and took the leap of faith off. Everything from a simple double ax handle to the swanton bomb would be gone.
Well Rocca is definitely at a disadvantage with the mic game, but keep in mind he was from a time where storytelling was a distant second to the wrestling. Personally, I'm going to take wrestling skills into consideration first and foremost. Mic skills account for less than 10% of my final choice in this tournament.
Come on now, we all know children are feeble minded *****es who will listen to anything anyone tells them. Seriously though, this is irrelevant.
He couldn't beat Tommy Dreamer... who was the same type of wrestler as Raven (balls to the walls hardcore) except less accomplished and less interesting.
Perhaps I'm being too nice while giving Raven his dues. I think he cuts a great promo, but if I see him walking to the ring without a shopping cart full of weapons, chances are I'm not going to watch his match.
It's hard to compare these two wrestlers as they wrestled in completely different periods, but for his time, Antonino Rocca did alright for himself. He wrestled in one of the biggest promotions in the US for a company that is now called WWE. Through this company he became so ridiculously popular with crowds that the promotion he wrestled for in New York pimped him out to other promotions who were dying to get their hands on them, even if it was just for one night.
The only major title he won was an NWA Tag Championship, but it should be noted that he and his partner never lost a match while holding these belts.
Kayfabe I put Rocca over Raven, and I think he deserves to go over Raven just based on his popularity and what he's done for the business.
I've never been a fan of Raven. He's an indy darling, ECW alumnist and all that, but I always thought he was completely overrated. However, if this were a hardcore match, I'd have no trouble giving him the vote because he'd win. Not only would he win, but he'd win in a most decisive manner I think.
However, this isn't a hardcore match and he's up against one of the first great high flyers and someone that did help introduce another dimention to pro wrestling. I'm not saying that Raven can't wrestle in a non-hardcore environment, but that's where he's always shined the brightest. I normally just don't give a vote to a wrestler just because of his legendary status but Antonino Rocca is a legend and I'll take a legend over an overrated hack anytime.
I'm taking nothing away from the contributions made to the business by Rocca, but Raven was truly a tremendous talent. He worked one of the greatest gimmicks, cut a promo better than anyone and was a master at ring psychology. Raven is one of the greatest wrestling minds this business has ever seen and he should be a dark horse in this tournament.
Ability to look good in the rejected clothing from Eddie Vetter's closet and cutting a "good promo" is useless in a kayfabe tournament. Antonino Rocca would ignore the musings of the enigmatic Raven and pick him apart. And I liked Raven. I just have to back the old schooler here, since this isn't a hardcore match. Moreso than anyone else maybe ever, Raven pigeon-holed himself with the hardcore deal.
Sick match. Gah.
I LOVE Raven and merely respect Rocca. Raven's promos, character, style in the ring, everything makes me a huge fan.
But I simply cannot vote him over Rocca in a clean match. Rocca would ground him, frustrate him with skill, speed and power, and move forwards.
allthis bs about rocca being a legend who fuckin cares raven was a hardcore innovator and one of the top 3 brawlers of the 90s he also held belts in in wcw and was the tna heavyweight champ and all this bullshit about raven only being able to wrestle hardcore matched check this out [YOUTUBE]aJHis37FeSk[/YOUTUBE] [YOUTUBE]LJM4vny6_fY[/YOUTUBE] was that not a great match? could rocca cut promos like raven hell no [YOUTUBE]HcbEGsLWzVY[/YOUTUBE] in ten to twenty years raven will be talked about as one of the most underated wrestlers ever he goes over here with the evenflow ddt