El Canek

[IrishCanadian25]

For those of you seeking knowledge on the legend known as El Canek, here I am to provide it for you. On my vote alone, he made the 3rd Annual Wrestlezone Tournament, and with the exception of MAYBE Sting, he should win the WCW Region.

So here, in list form is everything you need to know to vote for El Canek, and appreciate the man's legend.

1. El Canek is a 15-time UWA World Heavyweight Champion. It's the only major championship to his credit. Why? Because he stuck with UWA, and even continued to defend the UWA World Title after the UWA folded in 1995. Canek was the most established, legitimae star in the history of Lucha.

2. El Canek defeated none other than Lou Thesz to win his first UWA World Championship. Thesz is THE legend on wrestling as far as I go, and he didn't lose to just anyone. On September 27th, 1978, Canek beat Thesz for the first of fifteen.

3. Some of Canek's other victories are over men named: Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant, Yokozuna, Big Van Vader, Owen Hart, Tatsumi Fujinami, Riki Choshu, and Antonio Inoki. Look again at that list. NOBODY else has beaten all of those men. NOBODY. That's sick. Other than Owen Hart, it reads like a who's who. He beat them in Mexico, Japan, and the US - didn't matter where.

4. El Canek is the only man to have bodyslammed BOTH Andre the Giant and Yokozuna. Hogan didn't slam Yokozuna. And Luger didn't slam Andre. Neither did Ahmed Johnson. But El Canek slammed both of them - and guess what? Canek slammed Andre before Hogan did it, and Canek slammed Yokozuna before Luger did it. And not a bullshit hip-toss slam either.

Canek Slams Yokozuna
[youtube]uRAzaYB5eoU[/youtube]​

5. Canek did all of this standing 6'0, and weighing 240 lbs. He's got 10 lbs, and one inch on Jericho. And he's beaten every legend, and slammed every SHW. That's an amazing statistic.

For your viewing pleasure:

Hulk Hogan and Antonio Inoki vs Andre the Giant and El Canek

[youtube]gLxsuLBKT9E[/youtube]​

Canek isn't only a wrestler. Check out this MMA victory over Japanese legend Osamu Tachihikari, who incidentally has a Digimon character names after him.

Canek vs Osamu Tachihikari

[youtube]a36W6ZGEokY[/youtube]​

EL CANEK would destroy Jeff "The Chosen One with the Booking Power" Jarrett in under 10 minutes.

EL CANEK would dismantle Ultimo Dragon, but in a 20-minute classic.

EL CANEK would make JYD see double before pinning him in under 6 minutes.

EL CANEK is the reason guys like Eddie Guerrero had a shot.

Vote for El Canek in the Wrestlezone Tournament!

 

[MattMoses]

Had I been asked, El Canek would have made my list for the WrestleZone tournament. He is truly an underrated performer who holds an impressive list of accomplishments. While the UWA had a working agreement with the WWF from the early 80's, Canek went over some of their biggest stars, as IC mentioned, legends such as Andre and Hogan. He was definitely impressive for his size, being incredibly strong, agile and technical. I can't see why he wouldn't go far in the tournament apart from the fact that he isn't very well-known with the American audience of wrestling fans.

I'll be backing him as he deserves to make it far in the tournament, but he will have a big problem when the time comes to face Sting.

 

[Gelgarin]

El Canek defeated none other than Lou Thesz to win his first UWA World Championship. Thesz is THE legend on wrestling as far as I go, and he didn't lose to just anyone. On September 27th, 1978, Canek beat Thesz for the first of fifteen.

You know who else is quite a big legend?

Ric Flair.

You know who beat Ric Flair?

Carlito.

You know why I bring this up?

Because you have seem to have neglected to mention that fact that Lou Thesz was pushing sixty-four years of age when he jobbed to the twenty six year old Mexican.

Thesz had been more or less retired for the best part of a decade before he decided to put the UWA on the wrestling map.

Now don't get me wrong, having an aged Lou Thesz agree to get into the ring with you confirms that you're pretty big news, but given that he and Thesz are in the same bracket, I thought I'd clear this piece of misinformation up before any confusion started the permiate the Wrestlezone community.

Canek gets to the end of his side of rthe bracket (although his match with Ultimo Dragon 'should' be very close), then goes out to Lou Thesz. In the event of the mindless drones running wild and ruining thins for everybody, then Sting goes over Canek, although I'm not sure where my vote falls in that situation. Probably on Canak again, just to punish the Stinger.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Glegarin, let me make clear that my post about Canek going over Thesz for the UWA title was not done to dis-credit or knock Thesz. The man is as dominant all-time as they come, and you and I have always agreed on that.

I was merely stating that Thesz, the elder statesman of professional wrestling, thought highly enough of the young El Canek that he dropped the UWA Title to him. Thesz ddn't do that for just anyboy, because he didn't have to. He did it to the guys he believed in, and that's what we have here.

Canek also wasn't in his prime yet at this point either. It was over the hill Thesz vs far from the mountain Canek. So if / when these two meet, it'll be interestng.

As for Canek vs Sting, it'd be close because they are essentially the exact same wrestler. I'll explain that more later. But the fact remains - vote El Canek over Jarrett and Dragon.

 

[Tastycles]

1. El Canek is a 15-time UWA World Heavyweight Champion. It's the only major championship to his credit. Why? Because he stuck with UWA, and even continued to defend the UWA World Title after the UWA folded in 1995. Canek was the most established, legitimae star in the history of Lucha.

This really doesn't mean anything. He was pretty much the only person who was as consistent with the company through the 80s and certainly the only big man who was. Remember, Heavyweight Championships are not the main ones in Lucha Libre. E/CMLL didn't even have one until 1991, and AAA, the most North American in style, only created theirs in 2007 to make a specific top title.

He couldn't really go anywhere else. He was a top draw at UWA, and woudn't have been at EMLL. Loyalty probably did come into play, but they gave him literally every other title reign, would you leave? His situation is akin to that of someone like Shane Douglas in ECW. He won the title in a weaker promotion and stayed there because he could. Defending the titles of defunct promotions is a common, unnoteworthy thing in Lucha Libre.

Canek was absolutely in no way more established or legitimate than El Santo. Santo is actually a national hero, and he lived his character, never taking his mask off. Blue Demon Snr. and Mil Mascaras were also considerbly more famous than him. There's more too, but none as glaringly obious as those.

2. El Canek defeated none other than Lou Thesz to win his first UWA World Championship. Thesz is THE legend on wrestling as far as I go, and he didn't lose to just anyone. On September 27th, 1978, Canek beat Thesz for the first of fifteen.

The thing is, Thesz won the title, aged 62, by drawing with somebody. Not even beating them. He then dropped it to Canek. Thesz was the inaugral champion and was clearly there justto give a name to the upstart company.

Promotions often gave the title to oldtimers. The Sandman beat Don Muraco for the ECW title, Diesel beat Bob Backlund, this is just an extreme example of that. If he beat Thesz for the title even 20 years earlier, it would matter, but this doesn't.

3. Some of Canek's other victories are over men named: Hulk Hogan, Andre the Giant, Yokozuna, Big Van Vader, Owen Hart, Tatsumi Fujinami, Riki Choshu, and Antonio Inoki. Look again at that list. NOBODY else has beaten all of those men. NOBODY. That's sick. Other than Owen Hart, it reads like a who's who. He beat them in Mexico, Japan, and the US - didn't matter where.

How many of them did he beat in their prime in front of their home audience? For example, he beat Hart to take his mask off him. This match happened because Hart didn't want to be the Blue Blazer any more. He beat Andre in Mexico in a match WWF knew nobody would see, he beat Yokozuna before he was Yokozuna, he beat Hogan in a tag match. Lots of these are hollow victories.

4. El Canek is the only man to have bodyslammed BOTH Andre the Giant and Yokozuna. Hogan didn't slam Yokozuna. And Luger didn't slam Andre. Neither did Ahmed Johnson. But El Canek slammed both of them - and guess what? Canek slammed Andre before Hogan did it, and Canek slammed Yokozuna before Luger did it. And not a bullshit hip-toss slam either.

Lex Luger never fought Andre, so something of an unfair test there. Hogan didn't slam Yokozuna, but he did beat him in 21 seconds.

This feat is impressive, but he did it when Yokozuna was called Great Kokino, and when he weighed under 400 pounds. Impressive, but not nearly as much as you make it out to be.

5. Canek did all of this standing 6'0, and weighing 240 lbs. He's got 10 lbs, and one inch on Jericho. And he's beaten every legend, and slammed every SHW. That's an amazing statistic.

Slammed every SHW? Or two of them? All he's got going for him in this argument is that he is strong for a smaller guy. That's made irrelevant when you look at who he has to face.

He is probably one of the slowest luchadors ever, and

EL CANEK would destroy Jeff "The Chosen One with the Booking Power" Jarrett in under 10 minutes.

EL CANEK would dismantle Ultimo Dragon, but in a 20-minute classic.

EL CANEK would make JYD see double before pinning him in under 6 minutes.

EL CANEK is the reason guys like Eddie Guerrero had a shot.

Vote for El Canek in the Wrestlezone Tournament!

I would vote for him over 3 of those guys, but that says more about them than him. Canek is quite good, and if there were any matches in Mexico, he'd obliterate everyone.

Would Canek have made my 100 if I'd done one? Probably, but he has a chance of doing something against North americans were countless better luchadors wouldn't, and I'd love to see at least one do well.

I think he is quite overrated, and it is only because he worked for UWA, who flaunted their stars internationally much more, that he is as well known in the west. His matches are alright, his popularity in Mexico is huge, but elsewhere absent.

However, Canek is better than Jeff Jarrett, who in 13 years of me watching him has been unable to impress me once, so I'll be voting for him. If and when he faces Ultimo Dragon, I won't vote for him. Of those named so far in WCW Los Angeles, he is probably 4th or 5th, but again that is because he is largely against weak opposition.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

This really doesn't mean anything. He was pretty much the only person who was as consistent with the company through the 80s and certainly the only big man who was. Remember, Heavyweight Championships are not the main ones in Lucha Libre. E/CMLL didn't even have one until 1991, and AAA, the most North American in style, only created theirs in 2007 to make a specific top title

So what you are saying is that in Mexico, smaller high flyers were the norm, and El Canek was not a part of that norm, despite being impressivey agile. AND, judging by his history of easily being UWA's biggest draw, that he was the man who broke that mold. He, in a way, introduced and popularized a more American style of wrestling in one of the hardest territories to do so.

He couldn't really go anywhere else.

Horseshit. He could, and he did. He wrestled frequently in Japan, and drew huge crowds there as well. He could have gone anywhere, but UWA didn't want to lose him, and he was a mega-star down there, so why sell-out to a major American promotion?

He was a top draw at UWA, and woudn't have been at EMLL. Loyalty probably did come into play, but they gave him literally every other title reign, would you leave?

See above. And he would have been huge in EMLL as well, just like he was in Japan when he did spots out there.

His situation is akin to that of someone like Shane Douglas in ECW. He won the title in a weaker promotion and stayed there because he could. Defending the titles of defunct promotions is a common, unnoteworthy thing in Lucha Libre.

Canek stayed in UWA out of respect and loyalty for the promotion. Douglas stayed in ECW because Paul Heyman was the only man saintly enough to put up with Shane's shit attitude. There IS a difference. Please don't compare a legend like El Canek to that whiney bag of crap.

Canek was absolutely in no way more established or legitimate than El Santo. Santo is actually a national hero, and he lived his character, never taking his mask off. Blue Demon Snr. and Mil Mascaras were also considerbly more famous than him. There's more too, but none as glaringly obious as those.

I like Santo, no issues there, but El Canek was as big a star as Santo. I'll never speak a bad word against Mil Mascaras. Mil is the only man whom Canek wrestled and never defeated.

The thing is, Thesz won the title, aged 62, by drawing with somebody. Not even beating them. He then dropped it to Canek. Thesz was the inaugral champion and was clearly there justto give a name to the upstart company.

No issues there. And when the time came for him to pass the title to a legitimate top-contender who would runwith the ball, Thesz agreed to put over Canek. Are you telling me that you doubt / refute Thesz' expertise here? Thesz was a recognized name, got the promotion going, and then lost to El Canek, because he was the future.

Promotions often gave the title to oldtimers. The Sandman beat Don Muraco for the ECW title, Diesel beat Bob Backlund, this is just an extreme example of that. If he beat Thesz for the title even 20 years earlier, it would matter, but this doesn't.

Did you really just bring the worthless title reign of Bob Backlund into the mix? Backlund was champ for a day, only won the title to advance the storyline between Bret and Owen (and get the belt on Diesel without making Bret look weak), and lost the match in 7 seconds. Don't compare Thesz to Backlund, nor Canek to Diesel.

How many of them did he beat in their prime in front of their home audience?

Prime? All of them. Home country? It varied. He did not really wrestle in the States, but in Japan he beat Japanese stars as well as American stars.

For example, he beat Hart to take his mask off him. This match happened because Hart didn't want to be the Blue Blazer any more.

But he won. And even still, when the time came for Owen to lose the mask, who did he lose it to, despite the fact that there are LOADS of UWA wrestlers in masks? That's right, El Canek.

He beat Andre in Mexico in a match WWF knew nobody would see,

Who gives a shit, he beat Andre! And Andre was as big a legend in Japan as he was in the US, so it's still an amazing feat! A 6 foot, 240 lb man going over the 2nd most dominant Superheavyweight in professional wrestling history!?

he beat Yokozuna before he was Yokozuna,

Yep, he beat Yokozuna back when Yoko was faster, more agile, and less one-sided but still a dominant athlete.

he beat Hogan in a tag match.

And in a singles match...

Lots of these are hollow victories.

How so? He beat some of the greatest international legends in history, despite being shorter and lighter than them. He's quite possibly the most versatile wrester in history, along side Sting. You cannot refute the fact that he has defeated some of the greatest of all time, and just because it didn't happen in the US, doesn't mean it did't happen! Please don't be so maddeningly ethnocentric. wrestling exists outside of the US!

Lex Luger never fought Andre, so something of an unfair test there. Hogan didn't slam Yokozuna, but he did beat him in 21 seconds.

Luger didn't beat Yokozuna either. Except by count-out, and by cheating with a steel elbow. You know who did beat Yokozuna in his physical prime? El Canek. Hogan beat Yokozuna after a) 'Zuna had wrestled Bret Hart and won, and b) after Fuji hit Yoko in the eyes with salt. Yokozuna went on to effectively end Hulkamania in the WWE until Wrestlemania 18 - 11 and a half years.

This feat is impressive, but he did it when Yokozuna was called Great Kokino, and when he weighed under 400 pounds. Impressive, but not nearly as much as you make it out to be.

Luger hip-tossed Yokozuna, and only got the slam with Yoko's help. Canek picked up Yokozuna, turned him in the air, and slammed him clean. AND, Canek is smaller than Luger, just as Kokina was a tad lighter than Yokozuna. It works out perfectly. Canek was the strongest high flying Lucha in history.

Slammed every SHW? Or two of them?.

Everyone he'd faced. Everyone on my sig, he's slammed.

All he's got going for him in this argument is that he is strong for a smaller guy.

And fast and agile for a guy who can bodyslam Andre and Yoko.

He is probably one of the slowest luchadors ever.

Are you comparing him to 5'7, 205 lb guys like Psicosis whose only decent ring work came against OTHER men under 240 lbs? Give me a Luchador who is a little slower, and can bring loads of power to the table as well. That's a little something called VERSATILITY.

I would vote for him over 3 of those guys, but that says more about them than him. Canek is quite good, and if there were any matches in Mexico, he'd obliterate everyone.

The matches are in L.A. Same basic idea, so I'll consider this home court against everyone but Sting.

Would Canek have made my 100 if I'd done one? Probably, but he has a chance of doing something against North americans were countless better luchadors wouldn't, and I'd love to see at least one do well.

And couldn't. Only Canek can stand up to them.

I think he is quite overrated, and it is only because he worked for UWA, who flaunted their stars internationally much more, that he is as well known in the west. His matches are alright, his popularity in Mexico is huge, but elsewhere absent.

Over rated!!!??? Out of every mod and several regular members on the board, I am the ONLY ONE who put El Canek in their top 100. He's the most criminally under rated wrestler I've ever seen, and that must be corrected! And are you accusing the UWA of flaunting a superstar? I thought that was the point! Shit, WWF/E is really just the "McMahon Marketing Machine" anyway!

And Canek is also HUGE in Japan.

However, Canek is better than Jeff Jarrett, who in 13 years of me watching him has been unable to impress me once, so I'll be voting for him. If and when he faces Ultimo Dragon, I won't vote for him. Of those named so far in WCW Los Angeles, he is probably 4th or 5th, but again that is because he is largely against weak opposition.

So you're saying he's the 4th or 5th best in the subregion, despite being seeded in the 50's in the WCW bracket? And that's over rated? I fail to see the logic.

Honestly, Tastycles, I am just glad that you're on our side in the voting. But you've got to give more credit to a legend when it's due, as it clearly is now.

 

[jmt225]

I've been the biggest Tiger Mask mark for the longest time now, and it was against Tiger Mask (I'm talking about Satoru Sayama here) where I first got a chance to see El Canek. Though I wouldn't call him one of my favorites, I was impressed with him in the match against Tiger Mask enough so to check out some more of his stuff and yes... the guy was good. Very good. The match against Tiger Mask remains my favorite match I've seen of him, but rest assured his repertoire is DEFINITELY one of the most impressive in this entire tournament. That's an indisputable fact and when you look at the names he has beaten and his longevity in the business, the guy most definitely deserves to go far in this tournament, though I'm not sure he'll get past Jarrett.

 

[Tastycles]

First off, I wrote my reply out, then deleted it by accident, so this may not be on top form, but here goes.

So what you are saying is that in Mexico, smaller high flyers were the norm, and El Canek was not a part of that norm, despite being impressivey agile. AND, judging by his history of easily being UWA's biggest draw, that he was the man who broke that mold. He, in a way, introduced and popularized a more American style of wrestling in one of the hardest territories to do so.

Sure, he was popular, but I don't really think he popularised an American style, he just popularised himself. Rey Mysterio is popular, but Lucha Libre is hardly popular now in North America. He popularized himself. If you go to a Lucha Libre show, you will see at least one person in his style, and this was true before he was around. Rare, yes, but he was hardly a ground breaker.

He was the biggest draw in a company built around him. The fact that they did build the company around him is noteworthy, but at the end of the day, he was the only person they could build it around, as all the biggest people were either abroad, in EMLL or on the brink of retirement.

Impressively agile? You said yourself that he was the same size as Jericho. If he is impressively agile, then Jericho is actually a cat. He was impressively strong, and of below average speed and agility for someone his size.

Horseshit. He could, and he did. He wrestled frequently in Japan, and drew huge crowds there as well. He could have gone anywhere, but UWA didn't want to lose him, and he was a mega-star down there, so why sell-out to a major American promotion?

He didn't "sell out" because he couldn't. Nobody in America would pay him big bucks, because he had an American style, as you said. the novelty factor of someone like Mil Mascaras wasn't there, because you would essentially be getting someone that looked like a midcarder in a mask.

The crowds in Japan could have been for his opponents as much as they were for him. He fought people like Inoki and Fujinami, and anyone, literally anyone could have drawn huge crowds for those matches.

See above. And he would have been huge in EMLL as well, just like he was in Japan when he did spots out there.

Big in EMLL, maybe, but he certainly wouldn't have been the number one guy for as long as he was. Towards the end of UWA, after AAA had come along, there was really nobody left, he was obviously going to be huge.

During the 80s, the majority of the big names like Santo, Blue Demon and Solitario had retired, and Masceras was abroad, so being the biggest in Mexico then wasn't the hard.

Canek stayed in UWA out of respect and loyalty for the promotion. Douglas stayed in ECW because Paul Heyman was the only man saintly enough to put up with Shane's shit attitude. There IS a difference. Please don't compare a legend like El Canek to that whiney bag of crap.

Canek stayed because he knew he'd be far bigger deal there then he would be anywhere else. The air was still sour between EMLL and UWA in the 80s, so if he got in there, he'd be lower down the card. for reasons I've already stated, nobody would give a shit about him in America, which leaves Japan.

Even if he was a popular as you say, he wouldn have been no bigger a deal in Japan as he was in Mexico. Loyalty could have come into play, as I'm sure business nous did, and perhaps the situation is a bit different to Douglas in that respect, but he essentially stayed in a smaller company because it was better for him to do so.

I like Santo, no issues there, but El Canek was as big a star as Santo. I'll never speak a bad word against Mil Mascaras. Mil is the only man whom Canek wrestled and never defeated.

Comparing Canek's popularity to Santo's is absolutely a non starter. Santo was a national hero, is regarded as one of the greatest Mexican sportsmen of all time, and was the star of films based around him overcoming evil - he was a living superhero. Santo and Blue Demon are the reasons why wrestling is so popular in Mexico.

Santo is considered to be one of the greatest sports men of all time, which considering he was not an actual competitor is incredible. Canek has nothing on him. Canek was one of the greatest Mexican wrestlers in his time, Santo is one of the greatest Mexicans ever, voted 8th greatest in a public poll, I believe.

No issues there. And when the time came for him to pass the title to a legitimate top-contender who would runwith the ball, Thesz agreed to put over Canek. Are you telling me that you doubt / refute Thesz' expertise here? Thesz was a recognized name, got the promotion going, and then lost to El Canek, because he was the future.

Thesz put over the best person for the promotion, granted, but there wasn't really much choice. By the time he dropped the title, he was 62 years old and wasn't appearing for the company very often.So, he decided to drop the title to somebody who was appearing in the company regularly. UWA wanted to push someone young, which gave them literally two options. They could give the title to Canek or Dos Caras. As Dos Caras regularly went abroad to be on shows with his brother, Mil Mascaras, Canek made more sense, so out of a list of 1 potential champions, Thesz and UWA chose Canek.

Did you really just bring the worthless title reign of Bob Backlund into the mix? Backlund was champ for a day, only won the title to advance the storyline between Bret and Owen (and get the belt on Diesel without making Bret look weak), and lost the match in 7 seconds. Don't compare Thesz to Backlund, nor Canek to Diesel.

Backlund actually won a match against the WWF champion to get the WWF title, against an actual champion. Thesz was given the title over a year after he drew with somebody. You tell me which is more convoluted. Beating Backlund, a former 5 year champion, so decisively made Diesel, who'd never been world champion look good.

Canek, who'd only held one belt, and that was a national one, beat Thesz, who'd been brought in to add prestige to the title. The situation isn't identical, and Backlund obviously isn't as big a deal as Thesz, but the idea is similar. Thesz had basically been retired for 13 years when he won the title, and was certainly not in any way shape or form the man he was.

The company got a big name in, so that they could forge a market for themselves, and when the time came he passed the title on to someone else. Canek was in the right place at the right time. If Masceras had stayed in Mexico, then you know full well he'd have been given it.

Prime? All of them. Home country? It varied. He did not really wrestle in the States, but in Japan he beat Japanese stars as well as American stars.

Prime, maybe. He beat Japanese stars in Japan, I'll give you that, but he never made any impact in America, where this tournament is being held.

But he won. And even still, when the time came for Owen to lose the mask, who did he lose it to, despite the fact that there are LOADS of UWA wrestlers in masks? That's right, El Canek.

So Canek, the man who the company was built around beat Owen, who was leaving the company. Owen gave his mask to Canek, but Owen was fuck all then. Canek has only won 4 masks ever. Rey Mysterio, who has spent the majority of his career outside Mexico has managed to win 4, Santo managed 16. He has won fewer mask matches than Shocker. Canek, obviously wasn't that big of a deal to his fellow luchadors.

Who gives a shit, he beat Andre! And Andre was as big a legend in Japan as he was in the US, so it's still an amazing feat! A 6 foot, 240 lb man going over the 2nd most dominant Superheavyweight in professional wrestling history!?

He beat Andre. In a match that meant a hell of a lot more to the promoters who regularly had Canek on their cards than it did to Andre and the WWF. Andre was defeated in Japan by Inoki too. Andre lost to Canek, but not because Canek was better than him, because it only mattered to Canek, so Andre did the right thing.

Yep, he beat Yokozuna back when Yoko was faster, more agile, and less one-sided but still a dominant athlete.

So dominant he was a midcarder in AWA when it was dying on his arse. Canek basically beat someone the size and style of Rikishi. Not that impressive really. Bret Hart, who is the same size as Canek, beat Yokozuna when he was almost 50% heavier.

And in a singles match...

Really? I stand corrected. Do you have a video of this? (I'm genuinely intrigued, not trying to catch you out).

How so? He beat some of the greatest international legends in history, despite being shorter and lighter than them. He's quite possibly the most versatile wrester in history, along side Sting. You cannot refute the fact that he has defeated some of the greatest of all time, and just because it didn't happen in the US, doesn't mean it did't happen! Please don't be so maddeningly ethnocentric. wrestling exists outside of the US!

I'd like to think that my knowledge of Lucha Libre would suggest I am aware that wrestling exists outside of America. My point is that his victories over big name Americans are completely nullified by the fact that their audience would never see the matches, so they were of no consequence. He beat big naem Japanese people in Japan, but he was by no means the first or last person to do this.

Luger didn't beat Yokozuna either. Except by count-out, and by cheating with a steel elbow. You know who did beat Yokozuna in his physical prime? El Canek. Hogan beat Yokozuna after a) 'Zuna had wrestled Bret Hart and won, and b) after Fuji hit Yoko in the eyes with salt. Yokozuna went on to effectively end Hulkamania in the WWE until Wrestlemania 18 - 11 and a half years.

Steroids and court cases ended Hulkamania in the WWF, and Eric Bischoff and Ted Turner put the final full stop on it. Yokozuna beat him in his last match, but the plan was definitely for Bret to do it, circumstances just dictated otherwise.

Yokozuna was in his physical prime from a human beingpoint of view, but certainly not from a wrestling point of view. He was far more dominant in the 90s than he was in the 80s. Bret Hart beat Yokozuna in his prime. Canek beat him before it.


Luger hip-tossed Yokozuna, and only got the slam with Yoko's help. Canek picked up Yokozuna, turned him in the air, and slammed him clean. AND, Canek is smaller than Luger, just as Kokina was a tad lighter than Yokozuna. It works out perfectly. Canek was the strongest high flying Lucha in history.

Everyone he'd faced. Everyone on my sig, he's slammed.

When did he slam Bam Bam Bigelow, again I'd like to see this match. I forgot that he'd beaten Vader, and I apologise.

And fast and agile for a guy who can bodyslam Andre and Yoko.

Maybe so, but this is missing the point. He is strong for an average sized guy, not fast for a big guy.

Are you comparing him to 5'7, 205 lb guys like Psicosis whose only decent ring work came against OTHER men under 240 lbs? Give me a Luchador who is a little slower, and can bring loads of power to the table as well. That's a little something called VERSATILITY.

He really isn't that versitile. Show me a decent match he had against someone lighter than him. As most luchadors are lightweight, it stands to reason that they'd have matches with bigger people than them. There are literally hundreds of smaller guys who've had decent matches with bigger ones. Shawn Michaels, A.J. and Chris Jericho off the tip of my finger, Canek stands out because he was supposed to be small and do backflips because he wore a mask.

The matches are in L.A. Same basic idea, so I'll consider this home court against everyone but Sting.

I'm not entirely familiar with L.A. demographics, but I assume you mean its Latino population rather than its proximity to Mexico. In which case, they'd surely back Eddie in equal measures?



And couldn't. Only Canek can stand up to them.

Over rated!!!??? Out of every mod and several regular members on the board, I am the ONLY ONE who put El Canek in their top 100. He's the most criminally under rated wrestler I've ever seen, and that must be corrected! And are you accusing the UWA of flaunting a superstar? I thought that was the point! Shit, WWF/E is really just the "McMahon Marketing Machine" anyway!

And Canek is also HUGE in Japan.

How many mods put any luchadors in? He is the highest rated luchador who stayed in Mexico, and he is nowhere near the best one. You accused me of be ethnocentric earlier and Canek's position in the high esteem of North Americans is completely misplaced. He is not the greatest luchador of all time, but he is the biggest named one to wrestle in an American style, so he is seen as being good.

He is seen as being amazing because he was basically a heavyweight luchador, which doesn't normally exist. I'm annoyed that luchadors don't ever get a look in, and that is compounded when the only one that does is basically an American in a mask.

Yes the UWA flaunted him, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't mean he's good. He was the only person they had worth flaunting.

So you're saying he's the 4th or 5th best in the subregion, despite being seeded in the 50's in the WCW bracket? And that's over rated? I fail to see the logic.

I didn't mean in terms of the competition. I said he's in the top 5 by virtue of being in a weak bracket. Now that the bracket is almost full, I can confirm he is in my top 5. He is seeded 12th here, so I'm pushing him up 7 places. Saying that someone is better than Disco Inferno and that they are overrated is in no way a contradiction.

Honestly, Tastycles, I am just glad that you're on our side in the voting. But you've got to give more credit to a legend when it's due, as it clearly is now.

I'll say it now, he was one of the best in his time in Mexico, and I'd vote for him over a lot of people, it just annoys me that of all the luchadors this is the one you decided to push. He was good, but not that good. Solitario, Santo, Blue Demon, Masceras, Gory Guerrero, all of them were better than Canek.

Canek may have a chance to get somewhere if you are behind him, but if people vote for one person they've never heard of, it really really shouldn't be him. He is a unique talent in Mexican wrestling history with some big career wins, but I wouldn't call him a legend.

 

[jmt225]

Well, since IC won't get to it and I have all the time in the World this Sunday morning, here we go.

Sure, he was popular, but I don't really think he popularised an American style, he just popularised himself.

Well, first of all, if he popularized himself, then he deserves credit for that alone. However, to say he popularized the US Style in Mexico, from what I understand and what early matches I've seen of him, isn't that far fetched in my mind.

Rey Mysterio is popular, but Lucha Libre is hardly popular now in North America.

False. You do know that Mexico is apart of North America, don't you? And Lucha Libre is still VERY popular in Mexico. Just look at what Místico’s drawing numbers, if you don't believe me. And trust me, without the El Canek's of the World, there would be no Mistico and Rey Mysterio and Psicosis in the business. From what I've read up on him, he deserves as much credit as anyone for making Lucha Libre into what it became in the nineties.

He popularized himself.

And he deserves credit for that. Anyone who can remain popular in this business for over 30 years, no matter what country they're in, deserves recognition.

If you go to a Lucha Libre show, you will see at least one person in his style, and this was true before he was around. Rare, yes, but he was hardly a ground breaker.

False. El Canek debuted in the early seventies, dude. He brought shit to the table that no one else was bringing at the time. That makes him a ground breaker. Besides, he wouldn’t have been able to carry a company and stay on top for as long as he did if he didn’t bring new, exciting shit to the table.

He was the biggest draw in a company built around him.

Okay, so was Hulk Hogan, my friend. Just because the company was built around him, doesn't make him any less popular or a draw.

The fact that they did build the company around him is noteworthy, but at the end of the day, he was the only person they could build it around, as all the biggest people were either abroad, in EMLL or on the brink of retirement.

But the fact that they did build it around him and it SUCCEEDED, shows how big of a draw he was.

Impressively agile? You said yourself that he was the same size as Jericho. If he is impressively agile, then Jericho is actually a cat. He was impressively strong, and of below average speed and agility for someone his size.

Dude, we're talking about the seventies and eighties. He was impressively agile for his time. Besides, Jericho’s size or not, he was a heavyweight and the fact remains that you didn’t see many heavyweights pull off what he was able to pull off.

Also, keep in mind that him being about Jericho's size, however, still being able to compete against Giants and make it believable when he would beat them… that’s impressive.

And I think IC would agree with you and myself as well that Jericho is indeed a fucking cat in the ring when he wants to be. The guy will end up being one of the greatest wrestlers North America has ever witnessed when it's all said in done. Mark my words.

He didn't "sell out" because he couldn't. Nobody in America would pay him big bucks, because he had an American style, as you said. the novelty factor of someone like Mil Mascaras wasn't there, because you would essentially be getting someone that looked like a midcarder in a mask.

And you have proof of this where?

Vince and WCW and a lot of regional promotions were featuring Luchadors and Puroresu Wrestlers. You mean to tell me El Canek, one of Mexico's biggest draws ever, was never offered a contract somewhere in the states?

The crowds in Japan could have been for his opponents as much as they were for him. He fought people like Inoki and Fujinami, and anyone, literally anyone could have drawn huge crowds for those matches.

Okay, El Canek served as a real contender against those guys. A contender that fans believed could actually defeat those 'unbeatable' wrestlers. That alone says something.

Big in EMLL, maybe, but he certainly wouldn't have been the number one guy for as long as he was. Towards the end of UWA, after AAA had come along, there was really nobody left, he was obviously going to be huge.

Dude, excuses excuses excuses. The fact remains that the guy was a huge draw where ever he worked, and was so for a VERY long time.

During the 80s, the majority of the big names like Santo, Blue Demon and Solitario had retired, and Masceras was abroad, so being the biggest in Mexico then wasn't the hard.

And? El Canek filled the gap that needed to be filled. How does this take anything away from what he accomplished?

Canek stayed because he knew he'd be far bigger deal there then he would be anywhere else.

Then that also means the guy was a tremendous business man with a great head on his shoulders. Again, what does this take away from what he has accomplished?

The air was still sour between EMLL and UWA in the 80s, so if he got in there, he'd be lower down the card. for reasons I've already stated, nobody would give a shit about him in America, which leaves Japan.

Who gives a shit if he would've gotten over in America or not? That's speculation, not fact. The fact is the guy is a true legend in the business who deserves respect. Much more respect then a lot of the clowns in the tournament, which is the whole point of all this.

Even if he was a popular as you say, he wouldn have been no bigger a deal in Japan as he was in Mexico. Loyalty could have come into play, as I'm sure business nous did, and perhaps the situation is a bit different to Douglas in that respect, but he essentially stayed in a smaller company because it was better for him to do so.

And again, that makes him smart. It doesn't take anything away from what he has done in the business. And this entire post of yours man, while I respect the knowledge and effort put into it, nearly all rest on speculation. You're not spitting out facts, which heavily hurts your case, and will hurt your case if you spout out the same stuff once the tournament starts..

Comparing Canek's popularity to Santo's is absolutely a non starter. Santo was a national hero, is regarded as one of the greatest Mexican sportsmen of all time, and was the star of films based around him overcoming evil - he was a living superhero. Santo and Blue Demon are the reasons why wrestling is so popular in Mexico.

Santo is considered to be one of the greatest sports men of all time, which considering he was not an actual competitor is incredible. Canek has nothing on him. Canek was one of the greatest Mexican wrestlers in his time, Santo is one of the greatest Mexicans ever, voted 8th greatest in a public poll, I believe.

Now see, I'll agree that El Canek isn't better then any of those guys, but he still deserves to be mentioned in the same sentence. El Canek did a lot for Lucha Libre, and deserves credit for it.

Thesz put over the best person for the promotion, granted, but there wasn't really much choice. By the time he dropped the title, he was 62 years old and wasn't appearing for the company very often.So, he decided to drop the title to somebody who was appearing in the company regularly. UWA wanted to push someone young, which gave them literally two options. They could give the title to Canek or Dos Caras. As Dos Caras regularly went abroad to be on shows with his brother, Mil Mascaras, Canek made more sense, so out of a list of 1 potential champions, Thesz and UWA chose Canek.

But the fact remains that El Canek has a victory over Lou Thesz. No matter what you say, nothing can diminish that because not a lot of pro wrestlers could claim that feat.

Backlund actually won a match against the WWF champion to get the WWF title, against an actual champion. Thesz was given the title over a year after he drew with somebody. You tell me which is more convoluted. Beating Backlund, a former 5 year champion, so decisively made Diesel, who'd never been world champion look good.

Canek, who'd only held one belt, and that was a national one, beat Thesz, who'd been brought in to add prestige to the title. The situation isn't identical, and Backlund obviously isn't as big a deal as Thesz, but the idea is similar. Thesz had basically been retired for 13 years when he won the title, and was certainly not in any way shape or form the man he was.

You forgot to add that it was a house show Diesel defeated him on and also the fact that Diesel to this day remains as one of the worst draws in WWE history. And this is coming from a big time Diesel mark. I was a fan of his reign, but many others were not. El Canek’s victory over Lou Thesz, however, began his first reign of MANY in UWA and a spot on top that would last years and years.

The company got a big name in, so that they could forge a market for themselves, and when the time came he passed the title on to someone else. Canek was in the right place at the right time. If Masceras had stayed in Mexico, then you know full well he'd have been given it.

I don't believe in that "Right place, right time" crap. El Canek was handed the ball and he ran with it. There's nothing you can say that could ever logically take anything away from that.

Prime, maybe. He beat Japanese stars in Japan, I'll give you that, but he never made any impact in America, where this tournament is being held.

But he still has the credentials for us fans of his to say that he could indeed, realistically, defeat a lot of guys in this tournament.

So Canek, the man who the company was built around beat Owen, who was leaving the company. Owen gave his mask to Canek, but Owen was fuck all then. Canek has only won 4 masks ever. Rey Mysterio, who has spent the majority of his career outside Mexico has managed to win 4, Santo managed 16. He has won fewer mask matches than Shocker. Canek, obviously wasn't that big of a deal to his fellow luchadors.

But his credentials big to differ, and that's where all your points get defeated at.

He beat Andre. In a match that meant a hell of a lot more to the promoters who regularly had Canek on their cards than it did to Andre and the WWF. Andre was defeated in Japan by Inoki too. Andre lost to Canek, but not because Canek was better than him, because it only mattered to Canek, so Andre did the right thing.

Who cares? Dude, he beat Andre the fucking Giant. Just like I said about Lou Thesz, not many people in the history of the industry can claim that they have a victory over Andre. So, for that alone, it puts him ahead of a lot in the tournament.

So dominant he was a midcarder in AWA when it was dying on his arse. Canek basically beat someone the size and style of Rikishi. Not that impressive really. Bret Hart, who is the same size as Canek, beat Yokozuna when he was almost 50% heavier.

A win over Yokozuna is a win over Yokozuna. Say whatever you want to dismiss that, but the fact remains that El Canek has a victory over that motherfucker.

Really? I stand corrected. Do you have a video of this? (I'm genuinely intrigued, not trying to catch you out).

That's actually something I want to see too, IC, lol. If Canek has a singles win over Hogan, then there's really nothing you or anyone else can say that suggest this guy doesn't deserve to go a few rounds in this tournament, lol.

I'd like to think that my knowledge of Lucha Libre would suggest I am aware that wrestling exists outside of America. My point is that his victories over big name Americans are completely nullified by the fact that their audience would never see the matches, so they were of no consequence. He beat big naem Japanese people in Japan, but he was by no means the first or last person to do this.

False. A win is a win. It doesn't matter if a little league team beat the New York Yankees in Japan and not many people were able to watch it, it would still hold the same merit.

Steroids and court cases ended Hulkamania in the WWF

False. Hulkamania was dying long before that.

, and Eric Bischoff and Ted Turner put the final full stop on it.

Not really. Fans just stop giving a shit about him until he turned heel.

Yokozuna beat him in his last match, but the plan was definitely for Bret to do it, circumstances just dictated otherwise.

You're definitely right here. I regret to this day this match never went down in the WWF like it was suppose to.

Yokozuna was in his physical prime from a human beingpoint of view, but certainly not from a wrestling point of view. He was far more dominant in the 90s than he was in the 80s. Bret Hart beat Yokozuna in his prime. Canek beat him before it.

Still doesn't take away from the fact that when the tournament starts, Yokozuna is just another name we can scream El Canek once defeated.

Luger hip-tossed Yokozuna, and only got the slam with Yoko's help. Canek picked up Yokozuna, turned him in the air, and slammed him clean. AND, Canek is smaller than Luger, just as Kokina was a tad lighter than Yokozuna. It works out perfectly. Canek was the strongest high flying Lucha in history.

Now you're talking my language.

When did he slam Bam Bam Bigelow, again I'd like to see this match. I forgot that he'd beaten Vader, and I apologise.

Two more impressive victories....

Maybe so, but this is missing the point. He is strong for an average sized guy, not fast for a big guy.

Faster then the ordinary strong wrestler though, wouldn't you say?

He really isn't that versitile. Show me a decent match he had against someone lighter than him. As most luchadors are lightweight, it stands to reason that they'd have matches with bigger people than them. There are literally hundreds of smaller guys who've had decent matches with bigger ones. Shawn Michaels, A.J. and Chris Jericho off the tip of my finger, Canek stands out because he was supposed to be small and do backflips because he wore a mask.

Watch his match against Tiger Mask, please.

He is the highest rated luchador who stayed in Mexico, and he is nowhere near the best one.

Just as Hogan is no where near being the best "wrestler" in America, but I'm sure he's the highest rated.

You accused me of be ethnocentric earlier and Canek's position in the high esteem of North Americans is completely misplaced. He is not the greatest luchador of all time, but he is the biggest named one to wrestle in an American style, so he is seen as being good.

Because he is good. I'm not trying to say he's the greatest Luchador of all time, but the guy is undoubtedly in the discussion.

He is seen as being amazing because he was basically a heavyweight luchador, which doesn't normally exist.

Exactly. Unique = Draw. And in a lot of cases: Innovative.

Yes the UWA flaunted him, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't mean he's good.

Yes it does. If any promotion flaunts you and you make that company lots of money and keep it in business for years, that does mean you're good.

I'll say it now, he was one of the best in his time in Mexico, and I'd vote for him over a lot of people, it just annoys me that of all the luchadors this is the one you decided to push. He was good, but not that good. Solitario, Santo, Blue Demon, Masceras, Gory Guerrero, all of them were better than Canek.

In your opinion, but IC and others can have different taste. RVD might not have been the best wrestler on the planet in 1999/2000, but as a fan of his, I sure as hell thought so because there were a lot of things I loved about RVD, just like there are a lot of things IC loves about EL Canek. IC obviously loves SuperHeavyweights and the fact that a guy EL Canek's size actually manhandled a lot of names he manhandled, makes IC a fan of his and the person he mostly wants to push during this tournament. I too prefer a lot of other Luchadors and ESPECIALLY Japanese wrestlers over EL Canek, but that doesn't mean I'm going to bury EL Canek and make it seem he's not as good as he was.

Canek may have a chance to get somewhere if you are behind him, but if people vote for one person they've never heard of, it really really shouldn't be him. He is a unique talent in Mexican wrestling history with some big career wins, but I wouldn't call him a legend.

That's why you should help us who want to push him. Teach people who he is, and they'll not only seek out his stuff, but others in Lucha Libre as well.

With all that said, EL Canek for the motherfucking win.

 

[Tastycles]

Well, first of all, if he popularized himself, then he deserves credit for that alone. However, to say he popularized the US Style in Mexico, from what I understand and what early matches I've seen of him, isn't that far fetched in my mind.

He popularised himself, but so did countless people in wrestling, just about everyone in the tournament is an example of this, he is not special in that respect. To say he popularised the American style in Mexico is patently wrong. There are two aspects to this.

Firstly, Lucha Libre isn't all about high flying 5 foot tall Rey Mysterios. There is a lot of "the American style". Santo, who will be going out to Steve Austin in Round two used the Camel clutch as his finisher. He is undoubtedly the best luchador of all time, and he wrestled in the 1940s, 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s. So before Canek, and he used a very standard American moves as well as somersaults.

Secondly, while most wrestlers have American moves in their repetoire, there aren't that many popular ones that only do this. Canek is probably the only one that is even remotely popular to acheive this. There are American style wrestlers there, but look for them at the bottom of the card. Like I said, Canek popularised himself, not the American style.

False. You do know that Mexico is apart of North America, don't you? And Lucha Libre is still VERY popular in Mexico. Just look at what Místico’s drawing numbers, if you don't believe me. And trust me, without the El Canek's of the World, there would be no Mistico and Rey Mysterio and Psicosis in the business. From what I've read up on him, he deserves as much credit as anyone for making Lucha Libre into what it became in the nineties.

I know Mexico is part of continental North America, but "North America" is easier to write than "Canada and USA", and I think the context is understood. I cannot believe that you think Mysterio's success can in anyway be attributed to Canek. Wrestling was popularised in Mexico by Santo and Blue Demon. The path out of Mexico was forged by Mil Masceras.
Canek was big in Japan because Masceras left them wanting more. Rey Mysterio is big because Paul Heyman realised the marketibility of him. Canek hasd nothing to do with it.

And he deserves credit for that. Anyone who can remain popular in this business for over 30 years, no matter what country they're in, deserves recognition.

Woah there! He hasn't been top of the game for anything near that. He was top of the number two promotion in Mexico for about 10 years, between 78 and 88. He does deserve respect, but there are dozens of people to have been at the top of a promotion in their careers, and so yet again Canek is nothing special in this tournament. His first round opponent, Jeff Jarrett was on top of WCW, and then TNA, esentially the same thing.

False. El Canek debuted in the early seventies, dude. He brought shit to the table that no one else was bringing at the time. That makes him a ground breaker. Besides, he wouldn’t have been able to carry a company and stay on top for as long as he did if he didn’t bring new, exciting shit to the table.

tell me anything he acheived in the first 6 years of his career. El Universitario did fuck all. Fuck all. He only became a big deal when Thesz put him over, and even then it wasn't an overnight thing. I said this before, but there is very little competition for heavyweight titles in Mexico. He brought nothing new to the table, he just managed to gain a bit of popularity and carried on with that.

As for carrying the company, he carried it into the red. UWA was the number 2 promotion until AAA made it the number 3 promotion, then it ceased to exist, so much for his excitement.

Okay, so was Hulk Hogan, my friend. Just because the company was built around him, doesn't make him any less popular or a draw.

Raven and The Sandman had a promotion built around them. The point I'm making is that his popularity was helped greatly by his booking. He was not the first to get this, but as I've pointed out, he had the promotion built around him because there was nobody else.

But the fact that they did build it around him and it SUCCEEDED, shows how big of a draw he was.

It didn't succeed though. It did alright for about 13 years, then it started to go down the shitter, stuttered for 4 years and went bust. It was never that successful, and was never really challenged EMLL. AAA killed it for good.

Dude, we're talking about the seventies and eighties. He was impressively agile for his time. Besides, Jericho’s size or not, he was a heavyweight and the fact remains that you didn’t see many heavyweights pull off what he was able to pull off.

We're talking about luchadors too. Watch any other luchador from the era, then tell me Canek is agile. In particular watch Owen Hart as the Blue Blazer (evidently the first time around) and Mil Mascaras, who were the same size as him.

Also, keep in mind that him being about Jericho's size, however, still being able to compete against Giants and make it believable when he would beat them… that’s impressive.

Err... Yeah, because Rey Mysterio has never beaten anyone the size of, say, Kane has he. Even if that isn't convincing enough for you, what about Jeff Hardy beating the Big Show. The little guy overcoming the big guy is a classic wrestling storyline, and Canek isn't even that small.

And I think IC would agree with you and myself as well that Jericho is indeed a fucking cat in the ring when he wants to be. The guy will end up being one of the greatest wrestlers North America has ever witnessed when it's all said in done. Mark my words. n

You're probably right.

And you have proof of this where?

Vince and WCW and a lot of regional promotions were featuring Luchadors and Puroresu Wrestlers. You mean to tell me El Canek, one of Mexico's biggest draws ever, was never offered a contract somewhere in the states?

The few, and it was a few, that were promoting luchadors were doing it because they were high flyers, and therefore a novelty and not because they looked like Bret Hart in a mask. I can't prove that nobody offered him a contract, but I find it hard to believe that somebody who regularly wrestled in Japan never wrestled in a high profile at all in the US if he was asked to.

Okay, El Canek served as a real contender against those guys. A contender that fans believed could actually defeat those 'unbeatable' wrestlers. That alone says something.

Yes, it says that bringing in a masked foreigner to wrestle them was better than putting over one of your own lesser talents. It's quite clear that the enigma of him being masked, and wrestling in a non-Japanese style allows for a match up that people will be interested in, but that wasn't the reason he was chosen. They chose him because they had a talent sharing agreement with UWA.

Dude, excuses excuses excuses. The fact remains that the guy was a huge draw where ever he worked, and was so for a VERY long time.

He was a mexican that wrestled occasionally in Japan, always in marquee matches. It is hard to say who the draw was in most of them. He really wasn't that big of a draw in Mexico, if he was EMLL would have fallen behind UWA, especially considering they were in the same town. He was a big draw, but not the biggest.

And? El Canek filled the gap that needed to be filled. How does this take anything away from what he accomplished?

It wouldn't, but he wasn't anything on any of them. He wasn't as popular as any of them, so he didn't really fill the gap. He was one of the most popular when Lucha Libre had little else going for it. He wouldn't have accomplished anything if those guys were still there, as was proven by the absolute lack of success when he was El Universitario.

Then that also means the guy was a tremendous business man with a great head on his shoulders. Again, what does this take away from what he has accomplished?

It doesn't. It just doesn't really help him in a tournament on wrestling ability.

Who gives a shit if he would've gotten over in America or not? That's speculation, not fact. The fact is the guy is a true legend in the business who deserves respect. Much more respect then a lot of the clowns in the tournament, which is the whole point of all this.

Well, he wouldn't have gotten over in america. It is relevant because every single round in this tournament will be held in the USA. He deserves respect for being a good wrestler. I've said that he should beat Jarrett, but he shouldn't go any further than the second round. My point is that he isn't the best luchador ever, and that he isn't a legend of the business.

And again, that makes him smart. It doesn't take anything away from what he has done in the business. And this entire post of yours man, while I respect the knowledge and effort put into it, nearly all rest on speculation. You're not spitting out facts, which heavily hurts your case, and will hurt your case if you spout out the same stuff once the tournament starts..

Right, here's the crux of it. Canek has never had a good match with anyone smaller than him. Owen completely carries him in their match together. Then look who he facing in the tournament, Jeff Jarrett, Ultimo Dragon and Eddie Guerrero. Not big guys. Canek can do one thing: lift up Superheavyweights, and that is completely redundant when he isn't facing any.

Now see, I'll agree that El Canek isn't better then any of those guys, but he still deserves to be mentioned in the same sentence. El Canek did a lot for Lucha Libre, and deserves credit for it.

You've said "he did a lot for Lucha Libre" a few times, or words to that effect. What did he do though? Did he make it crack USA? No. Did he take the style abroad for the first time? No. Did he create a generation of wrestlers like him? No. Did he make it more popular in Mexico? No. No, what he did is have about 10 high profile matches in Japan. Big deal. Mascaras did that, except he was popular, and even made it to the WWF.

But the fact remains that El Canek has a victory over Lou Thesz. No matter what you say, nothing can diminish that because not a lot of pro wrestlers could claim that feat.

But as Gelgarin has already pointed out, Carlito has beaten Ric Flair. It means nothing to beat an old man. If he beat him even when he was 50, it might make a difference, but in this instance, it doesn't.

You forgot to add that it was a house show Diesel defeated him on and also the fact that Diesel to this day remains as one of the worst draws in WWE history. And this is coming from a big time Diesel mark. I was a fan of his reign, but many others were not. El Canek’s victory over Lou Thesz, however, began his first reign of MANY in UWA and a spot on top that would last years and years.

Canek beat Thesz at a house show, I don't really understand what your point is. The UWA heavyweight title WAS NOT the top title on UWA. The heavyweight title has traditionally never been the top title in lucha libre, and only has been in AAA since 2007. So he wasn't the top champion. Secondly championships don't really mean the same thing in lucha libre. Reigns tend to last a long time, with one champion often holding it for a long time, punctuated by short reigns by other wrestlers, which change each time. Canek's reign was not special in this respect. The only thing mildly surprising is that he got the title back off Vader after he had a long reign, but this was around the same time that everyone was abandonning the ship.

I don't believe in that "Right place, right time" crap. El Canek was handed the ball and he ran with it. There's nothing you can say that could ever logically take anything away from that.

He was in the right place at the right time. You seem to be misguided about the popularity of UWA. It was firmly the second most popular promotion in Mexico. Was he good? Yes. Was he great? No.

But he still has the credentials for us fans of his to say that he could indeed, realistically, defeat a lot of guys in this tournament.

If he was up against big guys, I'd agree with you, but he isn't. He's against the kind of guys that he has never done particularly well. His matches against small people, are all carried by the little guy. He is a one trick pony, the strong luchador. He has been unlucky to draw the people he has done.

But his credentials big to differ, and that's where all your points get defeated at.

My point was that in the thing that really matters in Mexico, mask matches, he hasn't done very well, suggesting he wasn't as big a deal as people have made out. His record in Mexico is more similar to that of Essa Rios than that of Santo. That is a fact, and shows he is overrated by the Americans that have heard of him.

Who cares? Dude, he beat Andre the fucking Giant. Just like I said about Lou Thesz, not many people in the history of the industry can claim that they have a victory over Andre. So, for that alone, it puts him ahead of a lot in the tournament.

If he was fighting anybody that was remotely like Andre, it would matter, but he isn't, he's fighting people smaller than him, who he's never done well against.

A win over Yokozuna is a win over Yokozuna. Say whatever you want to dismiss that, but the fact remains that El Canek has a victory over that motherfucker.

He didn't beat Yokozuna. He beat Kokina. Plenty of people beat the Ringmaster, Isaac Yankem and Mean Mark Callous doesn't mean the same thing as beating Stone Cold, Kane and The Undertaker.

That's actually something I want to see too, IC, lol. If Canek has a singles win over Hogan, then there's really nothing you or anyone else can say that suggest this guy doesn't deserve to go a few rounds in this tournament, lol.

But it's all about context isn't it. Billy Kidman has got a victory over Hogan. Do you think he should go far in the tournament? Canek beat Hogan in a match that meant absolutely nothing to Hulk Hogan or his perception by his actual fanbase.

False. A win is a win. It doesn't matter if a little league team beat the New York Yankees in Japan and not many people were able to watch it, it would still hold the same merit.

Yes, except wrestling isn't real is it? So booking someone to lose a match when their fans aren't ever going to find out, doesn't make as much difference as them losing in front of their home crowd.

False. Hulkamania was dying long before that.

Then Yokozuna didn't end it.

Not really. Fans just stop giving a shit about him until he turned heel.

Maybe, Yokozuna defo didn't have an effect on it then.

You're definitely right here. I regret to this day this match never went down in the WWF like it was suppose to.

Agreed, but this serves as more proof that Yokozuna didn't end Hulkamania

Still doesn't take away from the fact that when the tournament starts, Yokozuna is just another name we can scream El Canek once defeated.

Except he didn't beat Yokozuna, he beat Kokina.

Now you're talking my language.

IC25 and typos are talking your language.

Two more impressive victories....

Not really, Vader was on his way to WCW, so had to drop the title back, by which point UWA was in its decline. I have no idea about the circumstances of his win against Bam Bam.

Faster then the ordinary strong wrestler though, wouldn't you say?

Probably not actually. He is certainly slower than anyone he is likely to face in the first three rounds.

Watch his match against Tiger Mask, please.

I've probably already seen it, but I'll watch it again at some point.

Just as Hogan is no where near being the best "wrestler" in America, but I'm sure he's the highest rated.

I didn't make myself clear here. I said he was one of the best wrestlers to stay in Mexico, at a time when all the better ones were leaving. He was one of the best who stayed, in the same way that someone like Rhyno is one of the best to stay with ECW, but wasn't the best that ever fought there by a long shot.

Because he is good. I'm not trying to say he's the greatest Luchador of all time, but the guy is undoubtedly in the discussion.

He might be the best of the 80s. He has nothing on Masceras or Solitario from the 70s. And as for Santo or Blue Demon, he has absolutely nothing on them.

Exactly. Unique = Draw. And in a lot of cases: Innovative.

Gobbldygooker was unique. The defence rests.

Yes it does. If any promotion flaunts you and you make that company lots of money and keep it in business for years, that does mean you're good.

Except UWA didn't make any money, and it didn't stay in business for very long once there was more competition.

In your opinion, but IC and others can have different taste. RVD might not have been the best wrestler on the planet in 1999/2000, but as a fan of his, I sure as hell thought so because there were a lot of things I loved about RVD, just like there are a lot of things IC loves about EL Canek. IC obviously loves SuperHeavyweights and the fact that a guy EL Canek's size actually manhandled a lot of names he manhandled, makes IC a fan of his and the person he mostly wants to push during this tournament. I too prefer a lot of other Luchadors and ESPECIALLY Japanese wrestlers over EL Canek, but that doesn't mean I'm going to bury EL Canek and make it seem he's not as good as he was.

He wasn't better then Ultimo Dragon. Therefore he should go out in the second round. I'm arguing these points because looking at the facts at face value makes Canek look like one of the best wrestlers of all time, but when you add a bit of context, you realise he was a good wrestler, but not a great one.

That's why you should help us who want to push him. Teach people who he is, and they'll not only seek out his stuff, but others in Lucha Libre as well.

You have made an excellent point, and I don't want people to get the wrong impression about what I'm trying to acheive. I just want Canek to be seen in context. Would he beat Jarrett? Yes. Would he beat Ultimo Dragon? No.

If he makes it from there on out, I will probably be behind him most of the tournament.

With all that said, EL Canek for the motherfucking win.

Replace "El Canek" with Lucha Libre, and I'll agree with you.