Edge and Orton....I don't understand.

[Super Crazy]

Okay, so Orton was the top heel for the last two years or so on Raw. He was getting massive heat from the crowd. All of a sudden, he begins to be cheered for his heelish mannerisms and his heelish attitude.

A few months back, Edge makes his return, hot of the heels of a return from injury. He is booked as a face, yet he still does all of his heelish mannerisms and still has his somewhat heelish attitude. He couldn't get over even if he tried.

Both men are born heels. They are naturals when it comes to evil things. My question to you guys is why does it work for Orton and not Edge? Why is Orton cheered and getting tons of cheers, and possibly one of the loudest pops of the night, yet Edge was getting a mixed reaction if that on a good night? Why do people love Orton's heelish side so much to cheer him, yet they didn't cheer Edge when he was in the same role up until last week?

 

[Ferbian]

A few months back, Edge makes his return, hot of the heels of a return from injury. He is booked as a face, yet he still does all of his heelish mannerisms and still has his somewhat heelish attitude. He couldn't get over even if he tried.

Edge got over, not as much as John Cena or Randy Orton, but he was the most over guy on Smackdown during that period without the shadow of a doubt, the crowd was insane for his catchphrases and the sheer fact that he was feuding with one of the most hated heels of the company currently, it's quite obvious he was over as a face.

And I don't really think Edge was booked with heel mannerisms was he? sure he had the same move set, the taunting and such in the corner, but it could very very easily have functioned as a face mannerism from the very start as well, as opposed to Randy Orton who's still trying to RKO the hell out of everybody that gets in his way.

Both men are born heels. They are naturals when it comes to evil things. My question to you guys is why does it work for Orton and not Edge? Why is Orton cheered and getting tons of cheers, and possibly one of the loudest pops of the night, yet Edge was getting a mixed reaction if that on a good night? Why do people love Orton's heelish side so much to cheer him, yet they didn't cheer Edge when he was in the same role up until last week?

Something tells me the majority of it lies behind the fact that Randy Orton's RKO is that much more flashy and exciting, than Edge's spear, and if you're just the least memorable of Stone Cold, you know the RKO is one of the closest things we get to a stunner.
I'm not saying this is why although, and it's a pure guess because it would make sense if it was true, and that would be that the crowd is reminded of Stone Cold through Randy, that or they know he is the future of this business.

Any other than that, I really can't think of anything that puts Randy Orton over Edge in any way, except for maybe the sheer fact that Randy Orton was around while people were slowly forgetting about Edge, sure people were red hot for Edge during his return and feud with Jericho, but not as much as they were for Randy Orton, and the fact that Randy was present through those 6-7 months he was out, could easily have done lots for Randy Orton's popularity as opposed to Edge who really had to completely rebuild his character to the whole "I'm a face now, love me dammit"

Yet in the end, as I mentioned earlier, Edge was over as a face, not like Randy, but I think Edge's face period left it's mark, seeing as it's quite clear that he had problems getting booed during RAW last night.

 

[Adam08]

Well I think maybe the reason is why they pefer Orton and cheer him so much is because he somewhat a badass and the fans think he is the next Stone Cold. Now I see some charastics of Stone Cold in Randy Orton but thats just me. But maybe he gets these reaction is because he is on raw and is some what the focus and has been playing the heel role for quite a while and when he turned face fans got into his charater or somthing.

 

[Razor]

Okay, so Orton was the top heel for the last two years or so on Raw. He was getting massive heat from the crowd. All of a sudden, he begins to be cheered for his heelish mannerisms and his heelish attitude.

And now he's getting cheered for walking around. Awesome, huh?

A few months back, Edge makes his return, hot of the heels of a return from injury. He is booked as a face, yet he still does all of his heelish mannerisms and still has his somewhat heelish attitude. He couldn't get over even if he tried.

I'm with the Ferb. Edge was over, but not as over as Cena or Orton. I would say that's mostly because Edge isn't as good as everyone claims he is, but you know how that goes. I also think Christian will never get pushed beyond being champion fodder for Swagga. I'm most likely wrong, but meh.

Why do people love Orton's heelish side so much to cheer him, yet they didn't cheer Edge when he was in the same role up until last week?

It's that RKO. All of Orton's heel move set was centered around being super slow then nailing that RKO or Punt out of no where. People started marking out for the punt and they started to freak out over the RKO. Creative set him up against pseudo-heels then full blown heels, and voila. You have a crowd that will cheer Orton for anything.

Remember when Orton was feuding with Triple H and the McMahons? Orton got cheered for 5 minutes over punting McMahon. He put McMahon out in the middle of the ring, a McMahon that was a face at the time, and he was cheered over Triple H. Orton was more over than Triple H.

Edge....I would say that he's a victim of not having that much time to get himself over. That, and his spear isn't as flashy as the RKO. The RKO was the emotional release after 15 minutes of stomps and headlocks that could beat even our favorite heroes. The spear was something that was set up, sure. But it wasn't surprising. We knew it was coming, and it was in line with Edge's move set.

The feud right now is made as it is for one reason. Orton is being cheered for walking around with his head tilted to the side and squinting his eyes. He had that crowd cheering for no less than 10 minutes straight because he dared to stare at Edge. He didn't say a word through an entire Edge promo. He got cheered for RKOing Wayne fucking Brady. That cheer lasted through the entire Edge promo and somehow exploded when Edge got RKOed through a spear counter.

There is simply no man that can face Orton as a face and win the battle of the crowds. Cena would be eaten alive, and Edge would have surely been shit on. The switch of Edge to heel was completely logical, and the only move they could have made.

 

[sharmaq]

Orton has more of a sense of danger and unpredictibility about him with the viper character than Edge, so I can see the SCSA parallel there. I also think the "spear, spear, spear" thing damaged Edge, as it seemed so forced and out of character. The fans chant "RKO" but no one asked them to...they do so bacause they CHOSE to. There's a big difference between that and essentially being told to chant. That for me is a big reason for Edge not really taking off as a face. He was over but only to an extent, and the WWE knew this...I feel that if he'd really broken out as a good guy there's no way they would have pulled the plug on his face turn so early.

 

[axl626]

It's not popular here but I simply don't like Edge. Never have. Not since the first or second draft where he was announced as some big pick while he was injured to right now. I kind of liked him when he was part of E&C but that whole tag period was awesome. And I know it's kayfabe but Edge has never, not once, won the belt through a non-cheating or non-deceptive way. If he could actually use his skills in the ring to win I might see him better but not yet. Again, I know it's fake but it bothers me. And I don't know how big he thinks he is but a guy his size shouldn't be doing a big boot and a spear. If anyone else his size tried to do that to the guys he uses it on it would be used as a joke segment.

Orton on the other hand I've almost always liked, except for that time where he was with his dad on Smackdown. But once he came back while injured in 2008 with Voices as his theme he has been great. The only fault I saw here was during the WM 25 buildup when he discredited being insane which really set him back and destroyed that feud. Now that he's back to being an almost insane character again he's back on top. As Sharmaq pointed out, the fans willingly chant for Randy but when Edge turned face they were coaxed into it. That's not the first time that's been done with Edge. He was the first one to do the You Suck chants at Angle, but that stuck.

 

[Takerfan93]

I think its because Orton wasn't really a usual heel, I mean since the HHH feud, other than RKO-ing people he hasn't done anything of a traditional heel. He could transition easily into a face

Edge on the other hand, did get over as a face with crowds, personally I did not like him as a face. I think it is because he is such a fantastic heel, in my opinion the best since heel HHH. When you are as good as Edge are as a heel, its almost impossible to get more over as a face. The heel Edge I'm sure we will all agree is so much more entertaining, one of the best things in WWE

 

[Saritafan]

It's very simple actually, Orton is NOT a babyface, he's a tweener which means he can do whatever he wants and no one will question it, he can continue his fued with Cena tomorrow and everyone would believe it. Orton never changed his ways, he was always doing heel stuff, Edge went from one of the most hated men in WWE to a goody 2 shoes overnight, no one believed it. Thats why Edge never got over, because people would see him act nice and they'd think "why is he being so nice, this is not like Edge"

it was easier for Randy because he didn't become a good goody like Cena, he's still the same guy he was when he was getting booed, except now he's getting cheered

 

[Dropkicked]

It's not popular here but I simply don't like Edge. Never have. Not since the first or second draft where he was announced as some big pick while he was injured to right now. I kind of liked him when he was part of E&C but that whole tag period was awesome. And I know it's kayfabe but Edge has never, not once, won the belt through a non-cheating or non-deceptive way. If he could actually use his skills in the ring to win I might see him better but not yet. Again, I know it's fake but it bothers me. And I don't know how big he thinks he is but a guy his size shouldn't be doing a big boot and a spear. If anyone else his size tried to do that to the guys he uses it on it would be used as a joke segment.

Orton on the other hand I've almost always liked, except for that time where he was with his dad on Smackdown. But once he came back while injured in 2008 with Voices as his theme he has been great. The only fault I saw here was during the WM 25 buildup when he discredited being insane which really set him back and destroyed that feud. Now that he's back to being an almost insane character again he's back on top. As Sharmaq pointed out, the fans willingly chant for Randy but when Edge turned face they were coaxed into it. That's not the first time that's been done with Edge. He was the first one to do the You Suck chants at Angle, but that stuck.

I have to agree in that Ive never liked Edge myself. I think people are bored of him - theres not much flash or unpridictablity. Sure he can put on a good match, but other than his "ultimate opportunist" when he grabbed the titles, there wasn't much to him. The program with Lita worked, but only because everyone liked seeing Lita in those outfits - not because Edge really brought much to the table.

Honestly, Edge is going to have a hard time being anything more than a heel because people are just bored with him therefore they aren't going to get too excited. Unless he goes to an E&C program, he will have troubles.

Orton is just a goldmine similar to what Austin and the Rock were. One of those characters that come along that just works regardless of what he is doing. Orton is a good wrestler, has good poise and demeanor that gets over with the fans. He's a badass and has a marketable look and character. None of that applies to Edge.

 

[TokiRKO]

Orton isn't a heel or face. Never will be. Orton attacks who he wants to attack. Shades of Joe in TNA. Joe is cheered by EVERY ONE no matter who he attacks. Recently Joe's been picking some one randomly and just destroying them, and the crowd goes batshit. Same with Orton. Orton doesn't do the political ''OK he's a bad guy so imma hurt him''. Every one hates Randy and Randy hates every one. The only reason all the kids love him now is because he started picking off big heels too. He'll keep picking his own targets and keep jumping from attacking faces and heels. I've all ways loved Orton for that.

 

[Widowmaker75]

I read two things in earlier that seem to be right on target. 1, Randy isn't heel or face. 2,The RKO is the closest move to a SCS. As was the case with SCSA when he was first catching on, Randy will RKO anyone that gets in his path, Heel or Face. His mannerisms are selling him more these days then any mic work he's ever done.

Edge never worked as a face, and needed someone(Vicky and Lita) to help him draw heat as a heel. In my opinion that is why Orton is getting huge pops for just walking to the ring and Edge is doing what it takes to stay away from "Future Endevuers Land"

 

[kenvin100]

think of it this way:

Edge- HHH

Randy Orton- Stone Cold (but I gotta admit, I'd take Orton has a mega heel anyday!)

I must admit though; the fans are insanely forgiving. I still don't fully get this tweener role of Orton..after all the things he did almost a year ago. Regardless, this feud was complete genius by WWE, probably one of their greatest moves in quite some time. It seems they really thought long and hard with this draft, virtually making Raw the A show, and SD the B show.

Should be one of the more interesting feuds in WWE anyhow. I'm getting tired of Hulk Hog...John Cena and his against all odds persona.

 

[ForeverRKO]

Randy Orton is the only reason adults watch WWE still , lets just be honest .. john cena sucks , i wanna know how he gets destroyed the whole match then all of a sudden gets this sudden burst of energy , who does he think he is ? GOKU from dragonball z ? Randy Orton single handedly turned WWE around , face or heel he's the greatest , got the best move set , the best gimmick , and he's young .. he's not the next stone cold , or the rock , he has his on title so 10 years from now people will say " ahh that guys like randy orton " .

RKO4Life !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

oh & they should make a champion of champions title like in the video game because the world heavyweight & WWE title dont mean anything anymore .

 

[Morpheus101]

Randy Orton is the only reason adults watch WWE still , lets just be honest .. john cena sucks , i wanna know how he gets destroyed the whole match then all of a sudden gets this sudden burst of energy , who does he think he is ? GOKU from dragonball z ? Randy Orton single handedly turned WWE around , face or heel he's the greatest , got the best move set , the best gimmick , and he's young .. he's not the next stone cold , or the rock , he has his on title so 10 years from now people will say " ahh that guys like randy orton " .

RKO4Life !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

oh & they should make a champion of champions title like in the video game because the world heavyweight & WWE title dont mean anything anymore .

Orton is definitely the "grown ups" champ. He is definitely a class act and a future HOF inductee. It's got to the point that Orton is that good that you can't say he's the next Stone Cold or HHH, because he has forged his own mark on the wrestling business and as you said, soon people will saying x wrestler is the new Orton.

Orton, Sheamus, Miz & Jericho -- these are the guys who keep me tuned into Raw. The rest...average.

 

[ForeverRKO]

Orton is definitely the "grown ups" champ. He is definitely a class act and a future HOF inductee. It's got to the point that Orton is that good that you can't say he's the next Stone Cold or HHH, because he has forged his own mark on the wrestling business and as you said, soon people will saying x wrestler is the new Orton.

Orton, Sheamus, Miz & Jericho -- these are the guys who keep me tuned into Raw. The rest...average.

i totally agree , i highly dislike sheamus but without him & randy orton , john cena wouldnt be the champ he is today .. they boosted his career to a whole new level ( mainly randy orton ) i record all the raw episodes and i skip all of the other fights just to see randy orton or sheamus because they're unpredictable and very talented .

 

[natlee75]

Aside from the RKO being an "out of nowhere" move kind of like the Stunner, as numerous people have pointed out, I think another part of it is in their very established personas.

Randy Orton has always been that deadly, stone cold type lethal personality. It suits a heel, but like with Austin, fans can get behind that and cheer for someone like that.

On the other hand, Edge's established character has been that of a liar, a cheater, a manipulator. Hell, his nickname is "The Ultimate Opportunist." Aside from when he was part of E&C, he was never really a face - few people remember him as anything other than that conniving, sniveling heel. It's really tough for people to forget that and get behind it, especially if it's what he built himself as in becoming a top level superstar.

Remember when they tried to do that with Austin? It just didn't work - it never felt right because that's not what Austin was. Similarly, this whole sympathetic lovable good guy isn't what Edge has been established as. Sure, he got a little bit of a face push for coming back from such an injury, but that can only last you so long.

I'm actually glad they turned him back heel (or at least that's how it seems) because he works so much better as one. It's just not interesting listening to his promos when he's held back by trying to be a good guy. Orton, on the other hand, can say almost exactly the same things he's always said in almost exactly the same way he's always done it, and fans can cheer for it. He doesn't have to be handcuffed in his promos like Edge does to force a good guy vibe.

 

[natlee75]

Orton is definitely the "grown ups" champ. He is definitely a class act and a future HOF inductee. It's got to the point that Orton is that good that you can't say he's the next Stone Cold or HHH, because he has forged his own mark on the wrestling business and as you said, soon people will saying x wrestler is the new Orton.

Orton, Sheamus, Miz & Jericho -- these are the guys who keep me tuned into Raw. The rest...average.

Sheamus? Really?

Ugh... I can't stand the guy. Even ignoring the fact that I have to wear sunglasses every time he's on my television screen, everything about him feels forced. He's just a big muscular dude - nothing more, nothing less. He's not as big as the Big Show, he doesn't have a terrifying look like Kane or Undertaker, he's not charismatic like The Miz, he's not stone cold like Orton... he's just a big dude with a carrot top, a goofy face and one of the least intimidating voices I've ever heard in a WWE ring.

 

[El Rev sXe]

Orton is a badass, that is what makes him so great besides being a real good athlete. I mean the guy doesnt need to talk to become interesting!lol Edge on the other hand he is the rebel guy who says "IM HERE LOOK AT ME IM HERE I BREAK RULES...IM BAD" not saying at all that Edge sucks simply explaining why people are more over with Orton.

by the way Ive been waiting for this feud since the end of Rated-RKO it is going to be awesome, great promos, great build up and great match. I think they could easily steal the show if they have a match at Over the Limit

 

[ForeverRKO]

Sheamus? Really?

Ugh... I can't stand the guy. Even ignoring the fact that I have to wear sunglasses every time he's on my television screen, everything about him feels forced. He's just a big muscular dude - nothing more, nothing less. He's not as big as the Big Show, he doesn't have a terrifying look like Kane or Undertaker, he's not charismatic like The Miz, he's not stone cold like Orton... he's just a big dude with a carrot top, a goofy face and one of the least intimidating voices I've ever heard in a WWE ring.

not true , take koslov for instance .. he was undefeated destroying everyone in his path , then triple H comes along and BARELY beat him and look at him now , he never wins matches and he barely gets air time , sheamus on the other hand when you forget about him for 1 second he appears and knocks someone out and he's challenging the heavyweights in wrestling , must i remind you that he came into the WWE last year ? and he already beat most of the heavyweights and his career is still rising .. you gotta give the man his credit he put john cena through a table so does that make john cena garbage ?

 

[UFOcalling]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Orton's time with Legacy being the turning point for his new tweener character. Most fans who were watching WWE could EASILY see that the writers were trying to turn Dibiase and Rhodes face by having them stand up to their "evil leader" (Orton).

Obviously, that's not what happened. I think the writers thought that since Orton's character was so over as a heel (and Orton was DEFINITLEY doing a great job as a heel), Dibiase & Rhodes would easily get over as faces if they were to turn on him. The fans obviously did not agree...in fact, Dibiase & Rhodes were more over as "heels" (of a sort) because the fans just didn't care about them. What I mean is wrestling fans will boo a great heel, but they'll also boo characters they don't care about. Guess which catagory Dibiase & Rhodes fall into?

I think the reason that the fans hated Dibiase & Rhodes more than Orton is because they were nobodies who got to share Orton's spotlight. The fans didn't think they deserved it, and were happy to see that Orton finally realized that too. As far as the fans saw it, Orton finally saw Dibiase & Rhodes the way they did - as a couple of rookies who didn't deserve to be in the main-event as often as they were for so long.

In my opinion, that's the only reason that Orton's tweener character works so well. Not only does Orton do what he wants - WHEN he wants, but the fans feel that his character thinks the same way they do. Edge didn't have a great program like that to make the fans care about him, unlike Orton.

btw, I completely agree with the SCSA comparisons. WWE tried everything they could to make both Austin & Orton the biggest bad guys in the company, but the fans are the ones that started to cheer for both.

As far as the RKO/Stunner comparisons go, I kind of agree. Everyone knows that the RKO is essentially DDP's diamond-cutter. It seems that most of you forgot that the WCW announcers would always say that the diamond-cutter would come "out of nowhere" as well. DDP could be getting beat up through an entire match, hit his finisher, and get the 1-2-3. It actually got kind of annoying back then.

A bit off-topic, but Bret Hart had the best counter to the diamond-cutter...he would hold on to the top rope, and let DDP hit the mat without actually pulling off the move.

The Stunner/RKO/Diamond Cutter are all pretty similar...but you can't say that a finishing move is the only reason responsible for getting someone over as a bad-ass "face". I mean, Disco fucking Inferno was using the Stunner towards the end of WCW for christ's sake.

Had to mention this too, originally posted by natlee75:

Sheamus? Really?

...one of the least intimidating voices I've ever heard in a WWE ring.

As far as "the least intimidating voices...in a WWE ring" goes, in my opinion that honor would have to go to Bobby Lashley.

So...to sum it all up, Orton is MORE over than Edge as a face because of Orton's time spent in the group "Legacy". Yep, I think that's the whole reason.

 

[Widowmaker75]

After reading things that were posted after my first on this subject, I feel the need to clarify my thoughts. When I compare Orton to SCSA, I mean the way he started getting pops from the fans while he was the biggest heel on Raw. Ive always liked Orton whether heel or face. I like the way that he went after the entire McMahon family to get what he wanted. I really like what I saw last night with Edge, no need to say a word, just attack. The combination of facial expressions and no saying much, if anything at all, is a good gimmick. IMO Orton is a future HOFer and without question will have many more title reigns.

 

[AmericanDragonSW]

I think it's because when Edge came back, he was somewhat tame. Not really carrying over the Rated R Superstar persona that got him over. Also you have wrestlemania and him not winning. You had his big comeback at the rumble slammed into the wall by having Jericho not lose the belt. The mistake was having Edge not win and having Swagger win the belt but that's another story. In terms of Orton, its the face that they changed nothing. He's still not acknowledging anyone and still carrying his attitude. So needless to say, it's that everything that got Orton over, they've kept with him as a face.

 

[Morpheus101]

Sheamus? Really?

Ugh... I can't stand the guy. Even ignoring the fact that I have to wear sunglasses every time he's on my television screen, everything about him feels forced. He's just a big muscular dude - nothing more, nothing less. He's not as big as the Big Show, he doesn't have a terrifying look like Kane or Undertaker, he's not charismatic like The Miz, he's not stone cold like Orton... he's just a big dude with a carrot top, a goofy face and one of the least intimidating voices I've ever heard in a WWE ring.

Let's agree to disagree. I like Sheamus's character a lot and he brings something new to the table. Many hate him and I can see where they're coming from, but I kind of like his "in your face" Irish bar brawling-type style and the fact that he has got to where he is today without a manager or a stable surrounding him. He's certainly whiter than white, but that's a part of the package and part of his uniqueness. His promos; I guess you either love or hate and personally, I like the fact that he's different, carrot top and all.

 

[justjustinjacobs]

Idioteque555 is right on the money, the fans cheer for Orton because they weren't forced to. As Idioteque555 said it was clear to the fans that they should cheer for Rhodes and DiBiase, I mean the way he treated them, but they simply felt they did not deserve it.

WWE tried Orton as a face in 2004 when he left Evolution and it failed miserably because you can tell the fans who to hate because of their perceived "inexperience" by fans or have them rip on their town or something they care about but telling them who to cheer for is much harder. Orton got over on his own against creatives wishes, because at the end of the day the fans decide who is over and who is not.

The case with Edge was two-fold the injury he received would make him an instant face when he returned as it had done for the previously heel Triple H in 2002, but much in the same way it will only get you so far. Getting injured ruined the slow build for an Edge face turn which would have felt more organic and less forced to the fans and in turn this hurt Edge's chances of truly getting over as a face in the same way Orton did. Edge got cheered by the fans, but not at Cena or Orton levels because despite Jericho's best heel efforts there was something that was just a little bit off. It always felt more than just a little bit forced.

However some of you people need to join the real world it has nothing to do with Orton being better than Edge it is all a matter of circumstance. In my own opinion Edge is more talented than Orton, he is more charismatic, more cerebral, has a better flow in his matches and cuts waay better promos. Plus Edge had to get over with the fans as a face or a heel on his own not through who his father was, as Orton did for many years. But at the end of the day both are talented, tested individuals.

By the way Widowmaker75 you don't have a clue if you think Edge will ever be "Future Endeavored" by the WWE. Edge is a tremendous star in WWE 's eyes, he is a 9 time champion for god's sake. Adam Copeland will leave WWE when he decides and not the other way around.

 

[Morpheus101]

i totally agree , i highly dislike sheamus but without him & randy orton , john cena wouldnt be the champ he is today .. they boosted his career to a whole new level ( mainly randy orton ) i record all the raw episodes and i skip all of the other fights just to see randy orton or sheamus because they're unpredictable and very talented .

Let's face it, most people dislike Sheamus!

Randy Orton is the best thing going on Raw right now though....the "Grownups Champion", for sure. I am no fan of Cena, although I liked him as a heel many years ago. Orton has really established himself as a top draw now though. I don't know how long they can have Orton and Cena on the same show, to be honest. If WWE un-PG themselves maybe just 50%, I'm sure they can make Orton even more twisted and sadistic, but still as a face. As for his finished, it's the best in the WWE right now and probably by far the most popular.

They made the right decision in turning Edge heel. Edge's character doesn't really work as a face, whereas he's a great heel. Since coming back, Edge had looked kind of awkward playing the face role. Orton can clearly be a master of both roles and not many main event wrestlers have been able to successfully do that.