ECW Region, San Jose Subregion, First Round: (10) Jerry Lawler vs. (23) Daniel Bryan

[Bernkastel]

A little of both. There aint just kiddies at them shows, Cocoa, just ask Cena. Not saying all the adults have a fucking clue, but some certainley do.

However, totally agree with the rest of it. Thats great, Jerry Lawler held 377 world titles when such a thing existed. You know what didnt exist? Fucking cable. I know plenty about Lawlers legacy, but lets not go fucking nuts. He was big in his little niche of an area, or a few areas.

Daniel Bryan was on Wrestlemania, in a world title match. Lawler was on superclash. There is a reason 99% of people only recognize one of those brand names.

While I can see where you're coming from don't go overboard. It's not Lawler's fault he didn't get to wrestle his prime in a unified, global company putting on four televised shows per week, with virtually no competition, and with something as crazy as the internet on standby so fans of his could watch any of his matches whenever they wanted.

It's true that Lawler was primarily as big draw in one territory out of dozens, and a decent one in others, but it's not like Bryan has done anything really all that special in WWE. He was such a poor champion that he wasn't even built up to be a legit obstacle for Sheamus at Mania, and lost the title in 18 seconds. He's yet to hit his wrestling prime. Lawler had his and he's got a HOF ring to show for it.

Bryan's accomplishments at this moment in his career aren't enough to get him by Lawler.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

While I can see where you're coming from don't go overboard. It's not Lawler's fault he didn't get to wrestle his prime in a unified, global company putting on four televised shows per week, with virtually no competition, and with something as crazy as the internet on standby so fans of his could watch any of his matches whenever they wanted.

It's true that Lawler was primarily as big draw in one territory out of dozens, and a decent one in others, but it's not like Bryan has done anything really all that special in WWE. He was such a poor champion that he wasn't even built up to be a legit obstacle for Sheamus at Mania, and lost the title in 18 seconds. He's yet to hit his wrestling prime. Lawler had his and he's got a HOF ring to show for it.

Bryan's accomplishments at this moment in his career aren't enough to get him by Lawler.

This. All of this.

I've followed Bryan's career since 2004 and even I don't think he goes past Lawler. Jerry may have been in a relatively small territory and he may not have held the AWA World Heavyweight title when it mattered but he still managed to defeat guys like Mr. Perfect, Billy Graham, Randy Savage, Nick Bockwinkel and Kerry Von Erich, with three of the five aforementioned names being viewed as big names in the business at that time.

And a WrestleMania appearance as World Heavyweight Champion is fantastic and all, hell there were few people happier than I was to see him enter such an event with the title, but don't overrate his success. I'm an ROH fan but even I know Bryan himself would probably put Lawler over him if he viewed this.

 

[The Brain]

A little of both. There aint just kiddies at them shows, Cocoa, just ask Cena. Not saying all the adults have a fucking clue, but some certainley do.

However, totally agree with the rest of it. Thats great, Jerry Lawler held 377 world titles when such a thing existed. You know what didnt exist? Fucking cable. I know plenty about Lawlers legacy, but lets not go fucking nuts. He was big in his little niche of an area, or a few areas.

Daniel Bryan was on Wrestlemania, in a world title match. Lawler was on superclash. There is a reason 99% of people only recognize one of those brand names.

This tournament tends to bring out exaggerations. Big in his little area for a few years is an exaggeration, right? Lawler’s prime took place during the territory years. He ran and starred in a successful territory for many more than a few years. He was a standout star during his era. How many wrestlers got to play out a big angle on the David Letterman show in 1982? We wouldn’t put just anyone in WWE over the top stars of the territories just because their age allowed them to perform on a national stage. Daniel Bryan did walk into WrestleMania with the secondary title. He deserves credit for that. However, he was nowhere near the main attraction. There were three other matches on that card that were much more hyped and anticipated than his opening 18 second match.

 

[Coco]

Again -better matches, more of an important part of the company -vs- bigger exposure & smaller role?

Are you implying that Bryan has a small role? Because for the last year, he's literally been all over WWE programming. He's one of the biggest stars the brand has. Let's not pretend he's small potatoes.

Lawler in his day did serve as a huge part in his territory & started to get more exposure as time\circumstances progressed (ie, the Kaufman situation) Does that mean what he did there has less of an impact?

If anyone would ever discredit an independent guy for not making it in the big leagues, then I expect territory guys get shit for not being bigger than they were. It's a two way street.

Lawler may have had a smaller- die hard audience than that of what the WWE has now, but during that run\time- his impact was greater than what Bryan did in ROH or WWE. I love his recent tag run & some of his matches have been stellar, but that just does not hold up to what Lawler did in his day.

Bryan has succeeded nationally and was the talk of the town at the biggest wrestling event (and weekend) in the world last year. He then went on to be one of the biggest stars of that program for the last year. Putting "legends" on pedestals doesn't change the fact that Lawler's never been on that level.

Give it another year or 2 & see what Bryan does.

Why bother when I feel comfortable voting for Bryan now?

Time will tell if he can maintain the kind of pace needed to be considered among some of the greatest.

I don't need to argue that he's the greatest. Just that he's better than Lawler.

Time doesn't need to tell anything. Just ask Goldberg. Just ask Austin. Success is success, regardless of how long the time line. Waiting and seeing is for discussing lesser men.

While I can see where you're coming from don't go overboard. It's not Lawler's fault he didn't get to wrestle his prime in a unified, global company putting on four televised shows per week, with virtually no competition, and with something as crazy as the internet on standby so fans of his could watch any of his matches whenever they wanted.

And it's not Owen Hart's fault he died young and didn't go onto have all the success D-Man reckons he was destined for. Doesn't matter. This contest is taking place in the realm of facts on an allegedly international level. Jerry Lawler ain't shit. Bryan is a legit WWE superstar. There's nothing more than needs saying.

 

[Bernkastel]

And it's not Owen Hart's fault he died young and didn't go onto have all the success D-Man reckons he was destined for. Doesn't matter. This contest is taking place in the realm of facts on an allegedly international level. Jerry Lawler ain't shit. Bryan is a legit WWE superstar. There's nothing more than needs saying.

And the WWE wasn't the global juggernaut of a company that it is 15 years ago. Does that mean that guys like Bryan and Punk are better than guys like Bret and Shawn because they are known by a global market, as opposed to the latter who were just known nationally? Hell no.

Don't be ******ed. Bryan's WWE career amounts to him being nothing more than a midcarder. He's in the same boat as Swagger. Jerry Lawler was a huge draw in the southern states 30 years ago back when there were dozens of "top draws." Bryan isn't even in the top 15 of the best wrestlers in the WWE currently when the promotion is known globally.

 

[Con T.]

Don't be ******ed. Bryan's WWE career amounts to him being nothing more than a midcarder.

Whoa, ho, ho, what have we here?

There is something that does, in fact, separate Daniel Bryan from Jack Swagger.

Daniel Bryan got over. And it wasn't just with the IWC, it was the mainstream audience. I remember distinctly the night after Wrestlemania, where The Rock was going to open the show, and make a huge speech, in front of his loving home and friends.

Except it didn't exactly work that way. Because the crowd couldn't shut up from saying "yes" all the damn time. This wasn't just the IWC, it was a house full of fans.

And it didn't stop, in spite of how much WWE wanted it stopped

Swaggie is a guy they tried to push, that no one got behind, as was pushed back in favor of another Kane-Taker feud. Bryan at least stayed right in the thick of the main event picture. It isn't his fault WWE is too stupid to see what they have in their hands and just let him run with it.

Saying Lawler is bigger is one thing. Saying he's been nothing more than mid card, and comparing him to Jack Swagger?

Them's fightin' words, my boy

 

[nightmare]

Are you implying that Bryan has a small role? Because for the last year, he's literally been all over WWE programming. He's one of the biggest stars the brand has. Let's not pretend he's small potatoes.

Small potatoes? No. But you say I am overstating how big Lawler was? You may be doing he same here- and thats coming from a guy who really likes Bryan. Bryan has gained momentum over the past year for 2 things if you really boil it down.

1) NO! YES! NO! NO! NO!

2) Team Hell No! & Doctor Shelby skits that brought us another catch phrase I AM THE TAG TEAM CHAMPIONS!


....so basically it is because of him being funny and being part of some fun things to shout. Sprinkle in a handful of solid matches with Jericho & Punk.

Bryan has been pretty damn good & more entertaining to watch than much of what WWE was doing before WM season. Unfortunately the WWE tends to go one direction when they have a chance to go another. Still does not make Bryan the top guy or close to it. Very good, but not more than Lawler was in his day.

Bryan has succeeded nationally and was the talk of the town at the biggest wrestling event (and weekend) in the world last year. He then went on to be one of the biggest stars of that program for the last year. Putting "legends" on pedestals doesn't change the fact that Lawler's never been on that level.

Successful? Yeah. An Indy guy getting signed & winning the World title is pretty damn good. Especially for a guy who really does not fit the ' WWE mold' of other champions before him.

Unfortunately the reason he was the talk of WM weekend is that fans were hyped he was getting to defend at Mania given the situation I mentioned above. The rest of that talk? Came from him losing the title in 18 seconds.


& the part about Lawler? He may never have been in a title match like that on WM, but you cannot deny the man his fair share of moments. The King was either so hated or loved that entire arenas would go freaking nuts. I am talking like Elvis type of worship & Cena type of hate. The man could work a damn crowd.

 

[Bernkastel]

Whoa, ho, ho, what have we here?

There is something that does, in fact, separate Daniel Bryan from Jack Swagger.

The fact that he's charismatic and actually has a chance of succeeding? That's great and all, but its still under the category of "what might be."

Daniel Bryan got over. And it wasn't just with the IWC, it was the mainstream audience. I remember distinctly the night after Wrestlemania, where The Rock was going to open the show, and make a huge speech, in front of his loving home and friends.

Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that he wasn't built to be a credible heel. He's a great face right now, but does that make him better than Lawler in his prime? No.

Except it didn't exactly work that way. Because the crowd couldn't shut up from saying "yes" all the damn time. This wasn't just the IWC, it was a house full of fans.

And it was good booking and went a long ways to help make Team Hell No credible and entertaining, but don't kid yourself; WWE has yet to actually capitalize on this face persona.

And it didn't stop, in spite of how much WWE wanted it stopped

WWE wanted the "yes/no" thing stopped? That doesn't make much sense as it put Bryan over significantly.

Swaggie is a guy they tried to push, that no one got behind, as was pushed back in favor of another Kane-Taker feud. Bryan at least stayed right in the thick of the main event picture. It isn't his fault WWE is too stupid to see what they have in their hands and just let him run with it.

"Just a midcarder" probably would be selling him short, but even right now he's outside the top 10 of the biggest players in WWE, accounting for guys like HHH and Lesnar.

Saying Lawler is bigger is one thing. Saying he's been nothing more than mid card, and comparing him to Jack Swagger?

Both Swagger and Bryan had less than stellar reigns as world champion, Swagger was forgotten, and Bryan wasn't credible. Swagger is at least being given another chance to "wow" us; Bryan's not there yet.

 

[Con T.]

The fact that he's charismatic and actually has a chance of succeeding? That's great and all, but its still under the category of "what might be."

Except there is no "might be" to it; Daniel Bryan was (and is, though to a lesser extent) over. Again, fans following around, in public places, doing his (well, Diego Sanchez's) chants.

How many people can you honestly say fans do that for now in the public eye? John Cena and his you can't see me? That's the only one I can think of.

Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that he wasn't built to be a credible heel. He's a great face right now, but does that make him better than Lawler in his prime? No.

How was he not credible? Arguing that Daniel Bryan wasn't credible because he had some cheap wins is like arguing Ric Flair wasn't over because he went to so many time limit draws; it's his character, especially in kayfabe, man.

And it was good booking and went a long ways to help make Team Hell No credible and entertaining, but don't kid yourself; WWE has yet to actually capitalize on this face persona.

Funny thing; I was on my way to WWE Shop.com, and I was just purusing the aisles. I think I saw Sam shopping for Fandango nighties. Anyway, I went over to Daniel Bryan's aisle? And happened to find he had 27 different items up for purchase.

Doesn't seem much, right? Well, I go around and I look at everyone else's items for purchase. And lo and behold, only three people offer more merchandise than D-Bry.

John Cena
CM Punk
Randy Orton

That's it; that's the list. Now, you and I don't have merch numbers in front of us, but if they're willing to make this much merchandise on the guy, it's safe to assume there's a reason.

Namely, that he's making them quite a bit of money. And that is how WWE capitlizes on its faces. That's the relationship.

1. Get over
2. They make your merchandise
3. ??????
4. Profit

You have to remember, Vince doesn't just see his wrestlers as wrestlers, he sees them as enterprises, franchises that he can make his money off of with hats, shirts, ice cream cones, etc.

And it would appear D-Bry is getting capitlized off that, with the help of his big buddy Kane.

WWE wanted the "yes/no" thing stopped? That doesn't make much sense as it put Bryan over significantly.

Did you notice right after Wrestlemania they wanted to get the yes/no thing onto Sheamus? Or how Alberto Del Rio took it and did the whole "si" thing. Fuck, even how they worked it into his character, by saying that "yes" thing is a mockery, so he starts going with "no"?

Of course they don't want it dead. They'd just rather it be attached to anyone else in the company.

Just a midcarder" probably would be selling him short, but even right now he's outside the top 10 of the biggest players in WWE, accounting for guys like HHH and Lesnar.

Daniel's never been high on WWE's plans, because they never imagined he could get over. Just like Benoit back in the day. He may not be high on their plans, because let's face it, WWE's kinda inept at how they build stars, but if you had to think about it;

Was Daniel Bryan more over than Ryback when they squashed Bryan's push?
Was/is he more over than Del Rio?
Hell, you could make a point he's more over than Sheamus.

And when Brock, Trips, Rock, et all leave to do their own thing, I assure you, Bryan's only going to rise on the pecking of order of things planned for him. Which brings us to this:

Both Swagger and Bryan had less than stellar reigns as world champion, Swagger was forgotten, and Bryan wasn't credible. Swagger is at least being given another chance to "wow" us; Bryan's not there yet.

Less than stellar? In kayfabe, maybe; from Mark Henry's reign to the end of Daniel Bryan's reign, Smackdown was the far better of the two shows. Enough to the point that WWE realized they needed Bryan on Raw. Bryan's run was an incredible success, given how much WWE really gives a shit about Smackdown.

As for your Swagger point, I address you to the point made earlier:

the fact that he's actually charismatic and has a chance to succeeding?

We're going to come back to this post when Swaggie is jobbing it up Santino, and Bryan is back in the main event

 

[Bernkastel]

Less than stellar? In kayfabe, maybe; from Mark Henry's reign to the end of Daniel Bryan's reign, Smackdown was the far better of the two shows. Enough to the point that WWE realized they needed Bryan on Raw. Bryan's run was an incredible success, given how much WWE really gives a shit about Smackdown.

As for your Swagger point, I address you to the point made earlier:

Success as far as generating revenue, but I wonder how much of that success was on Sheamus after won the Rumble. He obviously looked better than Bryan going into Mania; it was evident when Bryan lost in 18 seconds. As a heel champion Bryan was not credible, and since that's his only dance as a world champ that doesn't give him a very good rep in a tournament to crown the best of all time.

the fact that he's actually charismatic and has a chance to succeeding?

That comment was directed at Bryan, not Swagger. The reason I placed him in the same boat as Swagger is that, for comparison purposes, they both have had one world title reign and both were less than stellar. Swagger's was forgotten, and Bryan wasn't built to be credible.