ECW Region, Los Angeles Subregion, Second Round: (6) CM Punk vs. (11) Great Muta

[klunderbunker]

This is a second round match in the ECW Region, Los Angeles Subregion. It is a standard one on one match held under ECW Rules, meaning anything goes. It will be held at the Staples Center in Los Angeles, California. Assume one week has passed since the first round match.

#6. CM Punk

Vs.

#11. Great Muta

​

Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Tastycles]

Muta is one of wrestling's great innovators, and that shouldn't go unnoticed, but you know what Punk is too, albeit as a character and not in ring. Punk's achievement was turning face in 2011. Here was a man who said nothing that the audience didn't already know, yet he made it seem rebellious. Since the nWo and Steve Austin, wrestling has desperately tried to repeat those angles and gotten absolutely nowhere. Punk came along and did it all whilst cross legged. He has had the odds stacked against him stylistically, yet there can be no doubt that he's one of the company's great assets. This match would be good, excellent, but I think Punk would win.

 

[PsychoBlack]

This is interesting because as far as in ring work goes these two are very similar. The only guy I can think of as a better comparison to Punk may be KENTA.

Muta was one of the few Japanese wrestlers to come to America and get over, and was a top draw in two different countries in the 90's. Punk although he is overrated he's still really good in reality. Punk became the first mega star since Orton and I think that counts for something as far as influence goes. Bad draw for Muta here. Punk goes over in about 30 minutes.


We're getting a lot of really good matches this round my god.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

You want to talk about a must see match in this tourney, Muta vs. Punk would be it. Styles that mesh well, and some of the best heel work in the business has been done by both guys... and some great good guy work has been done by Muta and Punk as well.

Punk's peak is right now... because he's come off a nearly year and a half title reign and is going after the streak at Wrestlemania this year. Punk's body of work's real great though. Muta was an innovator in Japan and has wrestled in North America and is one of only two wrestlers to hold the NWA Worlds Heavyweight title, IWGP Heavyweight Title, and the AJPW Triple Crown championship. Muta's very decorated and is capable of taking Punk in this environment.

I understand Punk was in ECW for a while, but it was the watered down WWECW, which paled in comparison to the hardcore style of old. On the other hand, Muta's been in what's called the bloodiest match in pro wrestling history with Hiroshi Hase. It's where the term Muta Scale came from when it comes to level of blood in a match.

Right now, I'm still torn. I'm leaning toward Muta though, but I can be swayed.

 

[Con T.]

Since the nWo and Steve Austin, wrestling has desperately tried to repeat those angles and gotten absolutely nowhere. Punk came along and did it all whilst cross legged

Punk became the first mega star since Orton and I think that counts for something as far as influence goes.

Interesting, these spins.

I'm pretty sure I discussed this last year, but I feel the need to bring it up again; exactly how much of a superstar CM Punk was when he came to power in 2011. That MitB pay per view, the one in which he set the world ablaze with the shoot and everything? Yeah, that MitB?

That did about 185,000 buys. Now, not bad by itself, but the year before was at 165,000 buys. Well, that's fine, it's a B Show, so what? At least it did an increasing number, that's something right? Well, maybe he'd do better at Summerslam; it's a major show, major audience, and he was facing John Cena, yet again.

That did 301,00 buys. Well, not so bad, right?

The 2010 edition did 350,00 buys.

Well, maybe it was an aberration, right? Surely, that would explain it? Punk caught so much attention from the media, so how did this year's Summerslam do?

Oh, just about 358,000 buys.

Look, if you want to argue CM Punk goes over because you think he's better, fine. But let's not build him up to be this raging success for the WWE, and the IWC. The juries still out on that, to be perfectly honest. And against a guy who had major success in Japan, and in America, and in a violent setting, with a guy whose matches were so brutal they invented something called the "Muta Scale"?

I need to really think about it

 

[Papa Pillman]

It's tough to seperate these two on the grounds of accomplishments, and many of the other traditional factors we would normally use. Both were/are big stars with a lot of world title reigns(Muta with 8 to Punk's 7 and counting) and its hard to quantify whose specific resume means more because they don't equate easily.

Also the extreme rules element may slightly favor Muta, but not to enough of a level to decide this match.

So what is my deciding criteria? Well, it's still region, despite the fact that the no-DQ element isn't a major factor.

This is the ECW region, and Punk actually was the WWECW champion, which in and of itself is a meaningless accolade because that title is a joke, but it still denotes that at one time Punk was the champ of a bastardized version of "ECW". And that also accompanies the fact that Punk is a "Paul Heyman Guy".

Punk's relationship to Heyman gives him a built in advantage in this region, yes there are some guys in the region with a chance to overcome it and beat him(Cena, HBK, and Flair for obvious reasons, and Lesnar because that negates the Heyman advantage), but Mutoh is not one of them. Punk moves on accordingly.

 

[nightmare]

CM Punk beat John Cena (the biggest face of WWE in recent memory) many times including in this very same arena.

His title reign was historic.

Heyman or Heenan would be allowed at ringside- 2 of the best heel managers ever. That trumps anyone that would be in Muta's corner.

Punk has had 5 star matches, Muta has not.

Punk is not scared of a little violence & punishment. Muta can dish it out, Punk can take it & give it right back.


Classic battle will be had. Muta is no slouch in Japan & had some success in the states, but that just wont cut it here. He would hit the mist, but dont think for a second that Heyman wouldnt pull Punk out or distract the ref long enough for Punk to recover. In the end Punk would play dirty, cheat & pull out all the stops & that would include a Pepsi Plunge. Muta goes down.

CM Punk moves on.

 

[Brewski]

It's interesting because if this were a straight match then I would pick Punk to have an edge. This is hardcore though so Muta evens that up for me. I'm not going to really break down my analysis here but punk is just a guy who knows how to win at all cost. At least that's how his title reign was. You can even say how he did have the Rock beat a few times in the last two months.

Muta is awesome and I can't take anything away from him but Punk just edges him out here barely, It's a bloody nasty match though. Punk wins.

 

[shattered dreams]

CM Punk beat John Cena (the biggest face of WWE in recent memory) many times including in this very same arena.

Cool story, now what does John Cena have to do with The Great Muta? He went into WCW in Georgia and beat Sting for the Television title.

His title reign was historic.

Might be more impressive if Muta hadn't had a title run of 400 days himself. Muta held the IWGP Heavyweight title for 1238 days combined. CM Punk has 622 days if you combine withe the WHC. Mutoh held the AJPW triple crown heavyweight championship for 547 days. Overall Mutoh basically has triple the days reigned. Now that is historic.

Punk has had 5 star matches, Muta has not.

Punk is not scared of a little violence & punishment. Muta can dish it out, Punk can take it & give it right back.

Classic battle will be had. Muta is no slouch in Japan & had some success in the states, but that just wont cut it here. He would hit the mist, but dont think for a second that Heyman wouldnt pull Punk out or distract the ref long enough for Punk to recover. In the end Punk would play dirty, cheat & pull out all the stops & that would include a Pepsi Plunge. Muta goes down.

WZT 101: if the argument centers around outside interference then the other wrestler is better. Pretty much anything you think Punk does well in a match as a heel, Muta does and then some. What is it Punk actually does better? Maybe when Punk's career is over then this will be closer. Until then the more experienced, more successful wrestler goes over.

 

[Con T.]

CM Punk beat John Cena (the biggest face of WWE in recent memory) many times including in this very same arena.

In a screwy way in which Cena's foot was under the rope.

His title reign was historic.

Shattered actually didn't do Muta enough justice.

in addition to the what SD says, Great Muta also won his first IWGP title in 1992, and held on to it for 400 days. I believe, if I'm correct, CM Punk's first reign as champion lasted... 28 days, no? Anyway, so there's that, which by itself is impressive.

It becomes even more impressive that Muta's last IWGP title run came in 2008. 2000 and fucking 8. When Punk is still wrestling in the year 2029 and is holding the belt for 262 days, as Muta did, then you may color me impressed.

Heyman or Heenan would be allowed at ringside- 2 of the best heel managers ever. That trumps anyone that would be in Muta's corner.

Why is Bobby Heenan in CM Punk's corner again?

Oh, and have you ever seen Gary Hart?

I mean, what Shattered said is also fair, but still, Gary Hart is every bit as evil as Paul Heyman

Punk has had 5 star matches, Muta has not.

Interesting.

That very same writer dubbed Muta the 2001 wrestler of the year. Again, a good fifteen years after he'd been in the business. While most wrestlers are breaking down, Muta was just in his prime.

CM Punk? He has nary to win a wrestler of the year.

Oh, and Johnny Ace had two five star matches. Need I go on?

Punk is not scared of a little violence & punishment. Muta can dish it out, Punk can take it & give it right back.

Punk's a guy who in storyline regularly backed away from the likes of Ryback and John Cena. Not afraid of violence, my ass.

Classic battle will be had. Muta is no slouch in Japan

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Not a slouch? He's easily in the top five of most influential Japanese wrestlers.

had some success in the states,

You're doing that thing again where you backhand compliment. He didn't just have some success, he's beaten some of the very best America has to offer.

Sting? He's just the tip of the iceberg. He's beaten Vader, he's beaten Jushin Liger, Flair, Steamboat, all guys on our American borders that we'd raise some eyebrows to. He was a pretty big player here; it would be like CM Punk going over to New Japan right now, and beating Okada

He would hit the mist, but dont think for a second that Heyman wouldnt pull Punk out or distract the ref long enough for Punk to recover.

And don't think for a second Playboy Gary Hart won't, either.

In the end Punk would play dirty, cheat & pull out all the stops & that would include a Pepsi Plunge.

Muta took a knife right to the face, and won the match.

I think he can handle a top rope pedigree

 

[Nate DaMac]

Punk's a guy who in storyline regularly backed away from the likes of Ryback and John Cena. Not afraid of violence, my ass.

I know it may be hard to believe, but Punk has never shown fear to Cena or even The Rock. Ryback is the only one who has brought out the cowardice in Punk consistently.

You're still right though. Remember when I said that I'd be right along side you guys when Punk went up against someone he should actually lose to? Well the time has come.

Punk just hasn't been around long enough to get by a guy like Muta. He's a fairly decent draw, he's a phenomenal wrestler, but he's only recently started to become such. Muta has been doing this for decades and has cemented a legacy far greater than Punk's.

Someday, we'll probably be speaking of Punk the same way. Today is not someday. Well it is, but you know what I mean.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

This could very well be the match of the tournament and I honestly think it could go either way. Neither guy has any real physical advantage over the other, both are highly decorated, both are highly respected by hardcore fans and more casual fans alike.

I'm leaning more towards Punk going over here mostly because, frankly, I simply enjoy him more but I'm open to changing my mind.

 

[Tastycles]

Interesting, these spins.

I'm pretty sure I discussed this last year, but I feel the need to bring it up again; exactly how much of a superstar CM Punk was when he came to power in 2011. That MitB pay per view, the one in which he set the world ablaze with the shoot and everything? Yeah, that MitB?

That did about 185,000 buys. Now, not bad by itself, but the year before was at 165,000 buys. Well, that's fine, it's a B Show, so what? At least it did an increasing number, that's something right? Well, maybe he'd do better at Summerslam; it's a major show, major audience, and he was facing John Cena, yet again.

That did 301,00 buys. Well, not so bad, right?

The 2010 edition did 350,00 buys.

Well, maybe it was an aberration, right? Surely, that would explain it? Punk caught so much attention from the media, so how did this year's Summerslam do?

Oh, just about 358,000 buys.

Look, if you want to argue CM Punk goes over because you think he's better, fine. But let's not build him up to be this raging success for the WWE, and the IWC. The juries still out on that, to be perfectly honest. And against a guy who had major success in Japan, and in America, and in a violent setting, with a guy whose matches were so brutal they invented something called the "Muta Scale"?

I need to really think about it

I don't think you really challenged my point here. I'm obviously not saying Punk is drawing money like the nWo and Austin, because that's abundantly clear. What I'm saying is that the rebel storyline is one that is often repeated and never successful. Punk's was a success, and I don't think that can be denied.

I'm still in two minds really, my gut tells me Punk would almost certainly be booked to win this. The issue is the dogshit arguments from everyone supporting him.

 

[Con T.]

What I'm saying is that the rebel storyline is one that is often repeated and never successful. Punk's was a success, and I don't think that can be denied.

Austin, in the long term, was a success.

The NWO, for how miserably it died a death, was a long term success.

I don't know if I can say for the same thing for CM Punk. Sure, for two weeks, it was legitimately the rebel story. And it was totally great, and CM Punk pulled it off. The problem became abundantly clear on about Punk's first or second week back from his vacation, when Triple H said this;

so, you held up the WWE for more money, and more perks, right?

From that point on, CM Punk became another cog in the wheel. Punk's booking after those two weeks made him out to be a de facto #2 guy, who pals around with the same man who he held this passionate grudge against

can I wear your blazer?

The character lost all of it's steam. And I hate to put it this week, but it really seems as though you'd be picking a guy for two weeks, rather than a guy with 20 years of excellence.

Does this sound reasonable?

 

[Tastycles]

Austin, in the long term, was a success.

The NWO, for how miserably it died a death, was a long term success.

I don't know if I can say for the same thing for CM Punk. Sure, for two weeks, it was legitimately the rebel story. And it was totally great, and CM Punk pulled it off. The problem became abundantly clear on about Punk's first or second week back from his vacation, when Triple H said this;


From that point on, CM Punk became another cog in the wheel. Punk's booking after those two weeks made him out to be a de facto #2 guy, who pals around with the same man who he held this passionate grudge against

The character lost all of it's steam. And I hate to put it this week, but it really seems as though you'd be picking a guy for two weeks, rather than a guy with 20 years of excellence.

Does this sound reasonable?

When you put it like that, I suppose it does, but it's not that simple.

Regardless of the character he played, Punk has been a pretty successful wrestler since his feud with Jeff Hardy, and has had several believable title reigns in that period, not least being the longest world champion anywhere in North America for about 20 years. Muta may well have been a success in Japan, but I suppose what I'm saying is that his in ring innovation, by far his strongest asset in my mind, is matched by Punk's ability to innovate within a very strict WWE template to get characters over - from the first heel incarnation, through rebel, through to whatever he is now.

The difficulty for me is this - what storylines has Muta been in? I don't follow Japanese wrestling, I just watch the odd match here and there. I don't know what character he plays beyond being a guy in a mask spitting mist. If someone answers this satisfactorily I will vote Muta, but the fact is, in Los Angeles, the interaction between crowd and wrestler is what's going to matter more than what they can do in the ring, and I think Punk edges that.

Like I said though, if someone can adequately explain (you don't have to be able to speak Japanese, but I'm exceptionally good at spotting tournament bull shit) how Muta got over with the crowd beyond cool moves, I'd happily vote for him.

 

[HBsam31]

Loved Muta growing up, and he has some wins against some big time stars. That being said this might be match of the tournament so far, and I had to go with Punk. He is the biggest star since Cena broke out, and he is just a tough guy to beat in big matches. Punk squeaks out a win in a great match.

 

[Bernkastel]

The difficulty for me is this - what storylines has Muta been in? I don't follow Japanese wrestling, I just watch the odd match here and there. I don't know what character he plays beyond being a guy in a mask spitting mist. If someone answers this satisfactorily I will vote Muta, but the fact is, in Los Angeles, the interaction between crowd and wrestler is what's going to matter more than what they can do in the ring, and I think Punk edges that.

And this is where being a member of New Japan, and not being Antonio Inoki is going to be a detriment to a guy like Muta. New Japan didn't have storylines or promos, just bad guys and good guys without anyway to connect with them, other than "hey this guy is a dick for cheating all the time." New Japan was more "sport" based than "entertainment" based like All Japan. For the longest time New Japan didn't even have wrestlers with gimmicks - that's one of the reasons why Muta gained such a following.

That's part of the reason why I can see why a vote for Punk would be justifiable. Nonetheless I still gave Muta my vote, as I still think he's the bigger name. Punk is close though, and I wouldn't be offended if he won.

 

[deem]

Muta's somewhat similar to Liger in that his reputation is based more on ability than kayfabe achievements. That said, the difference is Muta HAS beaten some big names. Not with the frequency a lot would have you believe however.

Vs sting - 5 wins, 33 defeats.
Vs flair, 1 win 15 defeats.
Vs luger, 0 wins 3 losses.
Vs Steamboat, 1 win 3 losses
vs Hogan, 0 wins 2 losses.

That's mostly on American soil granted, but so is this. Does Punk belong in a group with those names? Absolutely. Doubt his drawing power or critique his recent reign all you like, he's the #2 permanent guy in the WWE right now (I'll give you Rocky being bigger) and thus is one of the biggest stars in the world.

Muta's been fantastic in Japan and I would be the last to devalue those accomplishments. Four meaningful IWGP reigns, two great AJPW reigns, a very brief NWA title - I'd be taking Muta over tons of people here, but Punk isn't one of them. Of the Japanese representatives in this round, I think Muta is behind Inoki, Misawa and Baba in kayfabe matches and achievements, and I'd be hard pressed to put any of them over Punk too other than Inoki.

Sure, ECW rules may slightly favour Muta here. I don't think it's enough. Punk is the bigger star and would advance, this would be absolutely fantastic though. I'm a big Muta fan and Keiji would be a bloody mess with an arena bowing to him before he lost, leaving a memorable stamp on this tournament.

 

[The Brain]

Heads Punk, tails Muta. Tails it is. I'm not going to make much of an argument because I could just as easily have voted Punk. Muta is more decorated over a long period of time and has been able to be succussful in both Japan and the states. I've come around on Punk quite a bit over the last two years. Put this same match in front of me next year and I'll probably vote Punk. For now it's Muta.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

I went with Muta. Some of it went on personal preference but most of it was looking at it from all angles, outside of mic skills I think Muta is better. He has the better look, I thought he was solid in the ring and out of all foreign talent Muta is the one I remember most fondly. You can't use the successful only in Japan argument as Muta did great everywhere and when you watch Punk wrestle you can tell Muta was one of his influences.

I'm not gonna argue against Punk as he can win here as well but for me there is one thing that Muta has for me that Punk doesn't, back in the late 80's-early 90's there were 2 reasons I started watching WCW, Vader and Muta. For myself Muta is much more influential and is possibly the biggest reason I started watching that wasn't WWF. I was always drawn to him for some reason and I want to see him go on. Of course I can't compare as I was 20 when I first saw Punk, a lot of my voting is the little kid inside me but I like Muta better and Punk hasn't done enough that I can vote him over Muta. For me to vote over Muta you gotta be undisputedly better.