ECW Region, Los Angeles Subregion, Second Round:(3)Shawn Michaels vs.(14)Brock Lesnar

[klunderbunker]

This is a second round match in the ECW Region, Los Angeles Subregion. It is a standard one on one match held under ECW Rules, meaning anything goes. It will be held at the Staples Center in Los Angeles, California. Assume one week has passed since the first round matches.

#3. Shawn Michaels

Vs.

#14. Brock Lesnar

​

Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Nate DaMac]

Brock Lesnar in ECW? Yeah, I'm going with him. You guys can gobble Shawn's knob all day, but there's no way I'm going to give him the nod over Lesnar. If it was just a straight up match then maybe, but it's not.

 

[klunderbunker]

Now let's think about this for a minute. Shawn Michaels has survived the following:

In Your House 7 vs. Diesel (no holds barred)
Bad Blood: In Your House vs. Undertaker (first Hell in a Cell)
Summerslam 2002 vs. HHH (unsanctioned anything goes match)
Survivor Series 2002 vs. HHH et all (first Elimination Chamber)
Summerslam 1996 vs. Vader
In Your House 10 vs. Mankind

Shawn won all of these matches and they all have one thing in common: they're matches he shouldn't have had a chance at winning. In either prime of his career (and how many times can you pick from one or the other?), Shawn has a history of overcoming the odds and often against big men, many of which were in matches with no rules.

On the other hand we have Brock Lesnar, whose prime was clearly before he left. Considering MMA has no bearing on this tournament whatsoever and that it has no bearing at all in Lesnar's prime, basically we have Shawn vs. a power amateur, which he's defeated before.

When you look back at Brock during his first run, once he won the world title, his greatest win was probably against Angle at Wrestlemania. You know, the match where he beat a guy barely able to walk, let alone wrestle. Other than that his biggest win is.....what? Lesnar doesn't have the experience either on the big stage or the win/loss record that Shawn does and likely wouldn't win a one on one showdown with him.

This is one of those matches that looks one sided on paper, but when you break it down it's not that easy. Think about this and vote Shawn.

 

[SSJPhenom]

I've literally been waiting for this one.

All I've heard since it was clear that these two were going to meet in this round has been Brock smash, but damn it it's not going to be that easy for him.

Shawn Michaels is widely considered to be the greatest in-ring performer of all time and for good reason. When this man hit his stride, it appeared as though he could go out and have a match with a broom and make it a great match. He's only a 3 time WWE Champion and 1 time Heavyweight Champion, however, that wasn't his claim to fame at all. Through in ring work, charisma, mic skills, and just over all coolness, he managed to become one of the greatest that this business has ever seen. Some consider HBK to be the greatest of all time and although I disagree with that, I'd never argue with someone who said it.

So Brock smash huh? Brock is a big strong guy that, while in his prime, ran through the biggest and toughest opponents that the WWE had to offer at the time. Guys like the Rock, Undertaker, Kurt Angle, and Big Show, just to name a few. Heyman called him the next big thing and he wasn't wrong. He fast tracked it to super stardom, but he fizzled out soon after.

In the mid to late 1990's, HBK made a career out of beating big and strong guys. People like Vader, Diesel, 'Taker, Sid, and others have all fallen to the Showstopper. So to say that Brock would be just to big and strong for HBK would be ridiculous.

This match is contested under extreme rules and that definitely benefits Lesnar more than HBK, however, HBK is no slouch when it comes to using weapons. All in all, I honestly think that HBK has a chance in this match and it isn't anywhere near as cut and dry as some of you around here are going to make it out to be.

In the end, though, Lesnar would probably win with something like an F-5 through a table or on a ladder.

Make no mistake, though. I'm still going to vote for HBK because he deserves a lot more respect then a lot of you are going to show.

 

[Nate DaMac]

You say once he won the World Title, as if the match in which he won the World Title doesn't count. He was green as shit and he beat one the top 3 Stars of all time clean with relative ease.

 

[Tastycles]

You know what? Brock Lesnar has made me stop tuning into Raw on a weekly basis. Twice. He's fucking terrible. Attrocious. Say what you want about Michaels not being a draw, and lord knows it's mostly true, but Lesnar's period at the top saw the WWE ratings tank. They were getting 6s and 7s in 2001, they were getting 3s and 4s by 2004. It's not all Lesnar's fault, but it is a bit.

Michaels repeatedly beat men harder and bigger than him - Vader, Foley, Diesel, Undertaker etc. In fact, I think historically he's struggled much more against people his own size.

Don't get me wrong, Michaels is grossly overrated and KB claiming that Lesnar, a man who has beaten Hulk Hogan, The Undertaker and The Rock has no big wins is a bridge too far, but the fact remains, if Michaels is a 7 out of ten, but people say he's a 9. Brock is a 6 at best.

Lesnar is dog shit. Vote Michaels.

 

[klunderbunker]

You say once he won the World Title, as if the match in which he won the World Title doesn't count. He was green as shit and he beat one the top 3 Stars of all time clean with relative ease.

Yes he did. Then he lost it a few months later to Big Show in a match that lasted four minutes. Rock was on his way out and well past his prime by that point. Other than beating Rock and Angle, what's Lesnar's biggest win from that run? Off the top of my head, I'm thinking Undertaker inside the Cell, a win over a shell of Undertaker's best years with Taker having a broken hand. I'd hardly think that compares to a win over Undertaker in 1997.

 

[PsychoBlack]

Brock gets this here. Not only is he bigger than Shawn he's also stronger and faster. Shawn's been up against some big guys before but he's never faced one with the athleticism that Brock has. Shawn's in completely over his head here and their is no way he comes out on top of Brock here.

 

[Con T.]

Things I've learned from Shawn Michaels' music

• He thinks he's cute
• He knows he's sexy
• He's got the looks that drives the girls wild

Things I've learned through Brock Lesnar's music

• How to shit my pants in fear

Shawn may be great and all that jazz, but you know what he's at his best doing?

He's at his best selling, and putting guys over. That's Shawn's best lot in life. Now, is it the only one Shawn played? Well, no, he also played the top guy, as well. And how did that pan out?

Oh, Dave Meltzer

“Reality break, folks. It goes without saying that in the ring Michaels did a super job in 1996 . . . however, let’s not rewrite history to say Shawn’s reign was Hogan-like from a business standpoint, because nothing could be further from the truth. TV ratings collapsed in June of 1996 on Shawn’s watch, not Bret’s, and reached company all time lows for the rest of the year. Not just Monday night ratings due to Nitro—ratings across the board. Syndication died. Shawn’s work in the ring can’t be denied . . . but the buy rates fell through his reign and it was during Shawn’s reign, for “the first time in a decade that WWF in both ppv and TV ratings fell to no. 2 in the U.S.

Tasty will tell you that ratings dived around the 3 and 4 mark in 2003, which is totally true. I would never deny that. What's missing though, is that Smackdown's numbers actually were around the 3 or 4 mark by 2001. Lesnar's reign actually didn't much too much, at all.

I think I spotted two 2.6 ratings, but other than that? Business was the norm on the Smackdown side; it was Raw that was getting plundered.

http://www.twnpnews.com/information/smackdown2002.shtml

http://www.twnpnews.com/information/smackdown2003.shtml

I think you can make the argument that right after Shawn's return, from 2002-2004 was Shawn's prime as a performer. And that was a time when Shawn was at his best putting on great matches, and putting people over. I just don't think you can ignore how much Shawn's reign hurt WWE business in 96, and if you want to call it his prime, sure.

Also, a couple of things I'd like to note about Shawn's wins KB points to;

1. Didn't he need two restarts to finally beat Vader, losing by both count out and DQ? I guess it won't matter much in ECW, but it bears mentioning.

2. Didn't HBK actually lose that match to Mankind, again by DQ?

3. THAT'S GOTTA BE KANE!

4. HBK needed a dusty finish against the British Bulldog, of all people. Davey Boy Smith.

 

[klunderbunker]

Also, a couple of things I'd like to note about Shawn's wins KB points to;

1. Didn't he need two restarts to finally beat Vader, losing by both count out and DQ? I guess it won't matter much in ECW, but it bears mentioning.

2. Didn't HBK actually lose that match to Mankind, again by DQ?

3. THAT'S GOTTA BE KANE!

4. HBK needed a dusty finish against the British Bulldog, of all people. Davey Boy Smith.

1. Yep, but he would have retained the title both times. Also at the end of the day, he pinned Vader, not the other way around.

2. Yes, right after knocking Mankind silly with Sweet Chin Music, which would work on Brock too.

3. Yep, in a match no rules, much like this one, meaning the win was clean by the HIAC rules.

4. I seem to remember King of the RIng 96 being a superkick and a pin.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

In an Extreme Rules match, where weapons can be used, I'll give this to Lesnar. HBK is known as beating the odds and slaying giants... but Lesnar's not a giant. He's a legit bad ass who's strong as an ox and just plain mean.

HBK's mean streak got him a sledgehammer to the head from HHH, Lesnar's mean streak broke HHH's arm, F-5'd The Rock into an oblivion, and knocked off Hogan and Undertaker, which aren't small feats, and something HBK hasn't been able to do on grand stages. HBK lost to Hogan and Taker when it counted and those were in regular matches.

When it comes to weapons being involved, Lesnar would hurt HBK... and hurt him bad. It's not a squash by any means, but Lesnar would win this and leave HBK bloody and battered.

 

[klunderbunker]

In an Extreme Rules match, where weapons can be used, I'll give this to Lesnar. HBK is known as beating the odds and slaying giants... but Lesnar's not a giant. He's a legit bad ass who's strong as an ox and just plain mean.

HBK's mean streak got him a sledgehammer to the head from HHH, Lesnar's mean streak broke HHH's arm, F-5'd The Rock into an oblivion, and knocked off Hogan and Undertaker, which aren't small feats, and something HBK hasn't been able to do on grand stages. HBK lost to Hogan and Taker when it counted and those were in regular matches.

When it comes to weapons being involved, Lesnar would hurt HBK... and hurt him bad. It's not a squash by any means, but Lesnar would win this and leave HBK bloody and battered.

Just remember that sledgehammer shot came after Shawn beat HHH at Summerslam 02. Also, you don't call Hell in a Cell a big stage? Finally, no Lesnar isn't a giant, but Shawn has beaten guys of similar size and power. The thing about the weapons is that yeah Brock can use them, but if anyone can withstand that kind of a beating and hit a fluke shot out of nowhere for a fast pin, it's Shawn. The beating would indeed follow, but it would be a win for Shawn.

 

[Con T.]

1. Yep, but he would have retained the title both times. Also at the end of the day, he pinned Vader, not the other way around.

2. Yes, right after knocking Mankind silly with Sweet Chin Music, which would work on Brock too.

3. Yep, in a match no rules, much like this one, meaning the win was clean by the HIAC rules.

4. I seem to remember King of the RIng 96 being a superkick and a pin.

1. In this tournament, would that not still count as a loss?

2. What makes you think he'd be dumb enough to hold a chair to his head

Three and four are fair, though Taker had Shawn dead to rights, and I dislike the whole, "Brock's enemies will bail Shawn out" angle. If that were the case, boy Shawn would be up shit creek.

I think everyone is forgetting, even the Brock smash contingency, that Brock isn't just a brawler. Sure, he can brawl, but he can go in the ring. I remember watching his hour long Iron Man match with Kurt Angle, and thinking that was a fantastic match.

I also remember thinking it was so much better than Bret/Shawn. But Brock isn't just a brawler, he is a complete package. The closest comparison to him would be, why, Triple H.

And how has that played out for HBK, in the past?

 

[Shocky]

1. Yep, but he would have retained the title both times. Also at the end of the day, he pinned Vader, not the other way around.

2. Yes, right after knocking Mankind silly with Sweet Chin Music, which would work on Brock too.

3. Yep, in a match no rules, much like this one, meaning the win was clean by the HIAC rules.

4. I seem to remember King of the RIng 96 being a superkick and a pin.

[YOUTUBE]TUnJE8WnuZw[/YOUTUBE]

All the Sweet Chin Music did was disorient Lesnar. He still had his wits about him to get out of there and recoup. Yes, he got hit by Sweet Chin Music, but no way did it keep him down.

Lesnar loses to guys that either can make him tap out (Angle or Benoit), or guys that beat him with pure power (Big Show or Goldberg). Shawn Michaels is neither a submission wrestler, or a power wrestler. He's not going to outlast Lesnar, he's not going to outspeed Lesnar, and he's not going to out brutalize Lesnar.

I'm not completely discounting HBK here, I'm just saying he's in a bad spot. To Michaels credit, he beat Triple H in an unsanctioned match at Summerslam 2002, which is probably the best, legit win in that list you have provided. I think Lesnar is every bit, if not more, viscous than Triple H ever was.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Just remember that sledgehammer shot came after Shawn beat HHH at Summerslam 02. Also, you don't call Hell in a Cell a big stage? Finally, no Lesnar isn't a giant, but Shawn has beaten guys of similar size and power. The thing about the weapons is that yeah Brock can use them, but if anyone can withstand that kind of a beating and hit a fluke shot out of nowhere for a fast pin, it's Shawn. The beating would indeed follow, but it would be a win for Shawn.

Hell in a Cell was a big stage, but Kane assisted in that win. Kane's not rescuing him here.

And HBK's needed a lot of outside interference to win a lot of his bigger matches. We could talk about his win against Bret Hart, against Sid at Royal Rumble, and others... but none of those had Extreme Rules involved.

Lesnar would give HBK a tough time in a regular match, but where there's no DQ and Countouts, Lesnar wouldn't have to stop beating HBK until he was finished.

Michaels has a lot of fight in him, but Lesnar would be too much and after HBK passing out due to losing tons of blood, Lesnar hits an F-5 through a table and wins.

 

[Jaffa]

So KB's argument for Shawn basically is Brock will tear him to pieces and then Shawn will get the fluke win. Yer seems like sound strategy to me I mean in a regular match against Chris Jericho someone the same size as Michaels he only beat HBK til he couldn't continue. The only way you can vote for HBK is either you love him or you hate Brock there is no objective way of seeing a victory for Shawn here.
KB gave us some examples of Shawn perservering in matches like these:
In Your House 7 vs. Diesel (no holds barred)
Bad Blood: In Your House vs. Undertaker (first Hell in a Cell)
Summerslam 2002 vs. HHH (unsanctioned anything goes match)
Survivor Series 2002 vs. HHH et all (first Elimination Chamber)
Summerslam 1996 vs. Vader
In Your House 10 vs. Mankind

Lets break those down
In your house 7 Diesel: Fair enough I'll give you that one
First HIAC match while yes Shawn did win cleanly by the rules I find it hard to believe if this is some tournament some guy is going to jump Lesnar when he has Shawn all but out.
Summerslam 2002: Once again yer fair enough
Survivor Series 2002: Wow what an achievement to win a chamber match by entering last and winning by pinning one of the 2 that started off the match.
As for the 2 those have already been spoken about.

How ever I did see your argument about HBK hitting sweet chin music on Lesnar I think it would take more than 1 kick to put down Lesnar he is notorious for being hard to put down.

 

[klunderbunker]

1. In this tournament, would that not still count as a loss?

Not in ECW. For the rest of the tournament, just assume it's pin or submission finishes only. COuntouts and DQ's make it way too complicated and give people WAY too many stupid outs.

2. What makes you think he'd be dumb enough to hold a chair to his head

Nothing. A Sweet Chin Music to the jaw alone would stun Lesnar a good bit though.

Three and four are fair, though Taker had Shawn dead to rights, and I dislike the whole, "Brock's enemies will bail Shawn out" angle. If that were the case, boy Shawn would be up shit creek.

There's no interference in this. it makes no sense and is the lamest cop out in the world.

I don't think he'd be that far up. he's fought off monsters on his own and won before.

I think everyone is forgetting, even the Brock smash contingency, that Brock isn't just a brawler. Sure, he can brawl, but he can go in the ring. I remember watching his hour long Iron Man match with Kurt Angle, and thinking that was a fantastic match.

I remember Shawn going move for move on the mat with Bret and Angle, at least one of which is flat out better on the mat than Brock.

I also remember thinking it was so much better than Bret/Shawn. But Brock isn't just a brawler, he is a complete package. The closest comparison to him would be, why, Triple H.

And how has that played out for HBK, in the past?

Yep, Shawn beat him in an anything goes match after not having a match in four and a half years with a quick rollup, which I believe is what I said he'd have to do against Brock.

[YOUTUBE]TUnJE8WnuZw[/YOUTUBE]

All the Sweet Chin Music did was disorient Lesnar. He still had his wits about him to get out of there and recoup. Yes, he got hit by Sweet Chin Music, but no way did it keep him down.

True, it didn't stop a fresh Brock. The PerfectPlex didn't stop a fresh Ultimate Warrior at Survivor Series 1990 but that doesn't mean a spent Warrior wouldn't have had trouble with it. Brock after 15-20 minutes with Shawn would react differently to a superkick me thinks. Also remember that for some reason in wrestling, you can be beaten down for ten minutes straight and hit a single move to put your opponent down for just as long. It doesn't make sense but it's what happens for some reason.

Lesnar loses to guys that either can make him tap out (Angle or Benoit), or guys that beat him with pure power (Big Show or Goldberg). Shawn Michaels is neither a submission wrestler, or a power wrestler. He's not going to outlast Lesnar, he's not going to outspeed Lesnar, and he's not going to out brutalize Lesnar.

The brutalize I agree with as it's not Shawn's style. The outlast would favor Shawn in the long run as he has far less body weight to carry around.

The one I flat out don't agree with is speed. I've seen this come up earlier and I don't get it. Yeah Brock was especially fast for a big man and fast in general, but Shawn is one of the quickest guys in wrestling history. Shawn is built for speed and wouldn't lose to brock if this becomes a race.

I'm not completely discounting HBK here, I'm just saying he's in a bad spot. To Michaels credit, he beat Triple H in an unsanctioned match at Summerslam 2002, which is probably the best, legit win in that list you have provided. I think Lesnar is every bit, if not more, viscous than Triple H ever was.

Brock now is, but if we're talking in their primes, Brock was nowhere near as vicious back in the day.

Hell in a Cell was a big stage, but Kane assisted in that win. Kane's not rescuing him here.

That's true, but anything goes here, meaning Shawn can use a few nefarious means of his own.

And HBK's needed a lot of outside interference to win a lot of his bigger matches. We could talk about his win against Bret Hart, against Sid at Royal Rumble, and others... but none of those had Extreme Rules involved.

What help did he have at Mania 12?

Lesnar would give HBK a tough time in a regular match, but where there's no DQ and Countouts, Lesnar wouldn't have to stop beating HBK until he was finished.

Think about this for a second: how many times has Shawn been dead to rites and come back with a superkick out of nowhere to put someone down?

Michaels has a lot of fight in him, but Lesnar would be too much and after HBK passing out due to losing tons of blood, Lesnar hits an F-5 through a table and wins.

Shawn is indeed in a lot of trouble, but he's been in a lot of trouble before and looked like he had nothing left before making a superhuman comeback. It's happened before and it can happen again.

 

[klunderbunker]

Lets break those down

Appropriate for a Shawn match.

First HIAC match while yes Shawn did win cleanly by the rules I find it hard to believe if this is some tournament some guy is going to jump Lesnar when he has Shawn all but out.

True but I'd say a Taker as angry as he was going into that match is more vicious than 2002-2003 Brock.

Survivor Series 2002: Wow what an achievement to win a chamber match by entering last and winning by pinning one of the 2 that started off the match.

When it's your second match in four years and those guys are either former world champions or top contenders, yeah it's pretty impressive, especially given how banged up he was.

How ever I did see your argument about HBK hitting sweet chin music on Lesnar I think it would take more than 1 kick to put down Lesnar he is notorious for being hard to put down.

He hit two in a row in about 30 seconds to win his first world title. Certainly not unheard of.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

That's true, but anything goes here, meaning Shawn can use a few nefarious means of his own.

So can Lesnar. And Lesnar's going to hurt HBK worse than HBK could ever do to Lesnar.

What help did he have at Mania 12?

An extra five minutes. The match went to a draw, but Gorilla Monsoon gave them five more minutes, which helped HBK to the win. Outside interference rears its ugly head again.

Think about this for a second: how many times has Shawn been dead to rites and come back with a superkick out of nowhere to put someone down?

How many times has Lesnar been dead to rites? None that I'm aware of. There's video evidence that Sweet Chin Music stunned Lesnar, but didn't put him down. And there's no way this match goes over 20 minutes... especially when tables, chairs, and weapons are involved.

Shawn is indeed in a lot of trouble, but he's been in a lot of trouble before and looked like he had nothing left before making a superhuman comeback. It's happened before and it can happen again.

It could. And it's happened. He could also fail like he did against Taker twice, Hogan, Austin, and others. Difference here is Lesnar, who's just plain mean, can inflict as much pain as he wants and not have to worry about a DQ. And there's no one to save him in this match. Not to mention that if you wanted to factor in outside interference, Paul Heyman ran ECW and has been Lesnar's manager from day one of his career. Any advantage HBK could have would be moot.

 

[klunderbunker]

So can Lesnar. And Lesnar's going to hurt HBK worse than HBK could ever do to Lesnar.

That's true, but Shawn is far too smart to try to go straight at Lesnar.

An extra five minutes. The match went to a draw, but Gorilla Monsoon gave them five more minutes, which helped HBK to the win. Outside interference rears its ugly head again.

That's a BIG stretch at best. It was never said that there wouldn't be overtime and I remember hearing "there must be a winner". Monsoon was enforcing the rules.

How many times has Lesnar been dead to rites? None that I'm aware of. There's video evidence that Sweet Chin Music stunned Lesnar, but didn't put him down. And there's no way this match goes over 20 minutes... especially when tables, chairs, and weapons are involved.

Again, Shawn doesn't have to get Brock dead to rites. He has to keep his shoulder down for three seconds.

Maybe it doesn't go twenty. if it goes seventeen and a half though it lasts as long as ANGRY Brock's first extreme rules match goes. That would be the one against Cena who was dead to rites and then hit a quick move to win the match. It's been done before and it can be done again.

It could. And it's happened. He could also fail like he did against Taker twice, Hogan, Austin, and others. Difference here is Lesnar, who's just plain mean, can inflict as much pain as he wants and not have to worry about a DQ. And there's no one to save him in this match. Not to mention that if you wanted to factor in outside interference, Paul Heyman ran ECW and has been Lesnar's manager from day one of his career. Any advantage HBK could have would be moot.

Yes he could, but the Undertaker that he lost to wasn't furious and neither was Hogan. They were slow and plodding for the most part, which Brock won't be. The Undertaker Shawn survived against (which is what he would do here) was angry and beating on Shawn every chance he could. Shawn kept escaping until he found a way to win.

Also, and this is as the tournament director and not as me debating, forget any outside interference for all matches. That's been the way I've run this for years now as it gets WAY too complicated and at times ridiculous otherwise.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

That's true, but Shawn is far too smart to try to go straight at Lesnar.

True. Lesnar's not going to wait on HBK either.

That's a BIG stretch at best. It was never said that there wouldn't be overtime and I remember hearing "there must be a winner". Monsoon was enforcing the rules.

How come Bret left then? He thought the match was over... and I don't recall it saying there must be a winner until Monsoon came out and declared it.

Again, Shawn doesn't have to get Brock dead to rites. He has to keep his shoulder down for three seconds.

Which is a tough to do. It's not impossible for HBK to win here, but Lesnar will hurt him and hurt him bad enough to get a three count and advance.

Maybe it doesn't go twenty. if it goes seventeen and a half though it lasts as long as ANGRY Brock's first extreme rules match goes. That would be the one against Cena who was dead to rites and then hit a quick move to win the match. It's been done before and it can be done again.

Sure it CAN... but other than Cena this past year, quick hits on Lesnar don't work. In his peak, Lesnar couldn't be stopped with sudden impact. And ad weapons to the mix, and Lesnar's going to have a grin on his face the entire time he's beating on HBK.

Yes he could, but the Undertaker that he lost to wasn't furious and neither was Hogan. They were slow and plodding for the most part, which Brock won't be. The Undertaker Shawn survived against (which is what he would do here) was angry and beating on Shawn every chance he could. Shawn kept escaping until he found a way to win.

That way to win was interference from Kane. Which as you mentioned is moot. No help means little hope for HBK to win this.

Also, and this is as the tournament director and not as me debating, forget any outside interference for all matches. That's been the way I've run this for years now as it gets WAY too complicated and at times ridiculous otherwise.

That's fine. And pretty much seals the fate for Lesnar to win this.

 

[Jaffa]

Appropriate for a Shawn match.



True but I'd say a Taker as angry as he was going into that match is more vicious than 2002-2003 Brock.



When it's your second match in four years and those guys are either former world champions or top contenders, yeah it's pretty impressive, especially given how banged up he was.



He hit two in a row in about 30 seconds to win his first world title. Certainly not unheard of.

I'm not seeing how that is relevant to the fact that he needed someone else to beat Taker for him viciousness alone doesn't equate to victory.

When HBK entered that Kane, Jericho and Triple H were left. Now correct me if I am wrong but HBK the 6th entrant was not in that match for long when Kane the number 5 entrant had been eliminated leaving only Triple H and Jericho the number 2 and 3 entrants respectively. So he is 15 minutes fresher than Jericho and 20 fresher than Triple H. That in itself shows just how the odds were stacked in his favour.

He won his first world title against Bret Hart a guy who would be no bigger than Shawn compared to Brock Lesnar a guy who would of been destroying HBK the whole match and is a whole lot bigger.

Bottom line I find it hard to believe Shawn Michaels would win this match it seems like another Great American Bash 2008 for him.

 

[klunderbunker]

True. Lesnar's not going to wait on HBK either.

No he isn't. He's going to come at him like a bull in a China shop, which is where Shawn can take advantage.

How come Bret left then? He thought the match was over... and I don't recall it saying there must be a winner until Monsoon came out and declared it.

I'm pretty sure it was but maybe I'm imagining it. Either way, there was never a ruling stating that the match could end in a draw, so it's not like the rules were changed on the fly. Again, to call that outside interference is a stretch.

Which is a tough to do. It's not impossible for HBK to win here, but Lesnar will hurt him and hurt him bad enough to get a three count and advance.

I would have said the same thing in 2002 when Shawn returned. Well, minus the advance part that is.

Sure it CAN... but other than Cena this past year, quick hits on Lesnar don't work. In his peak, Lesnar couldn't be stopped with sudden impact. And ad weapons to the mix, and Lesnar's going to have a grin on his face the entire time he's beating on HBK.

Much like HHH in 2002 or Diesel in 1996.

That way to win was interference from Kane. Which as you mentioned is moot. No help means little hope for HBK to win this.

It didn't take outside interference for Cena to beat Lesnar. It can indeed be done.

That's fine. And pretty much seals the fate for Lesnar to win this.

I would beg to differ. Shawn has been up against impossible odds before and pulled it off. It can work and it has before.

 

[klunderbunker]

I'm not seeing how that is relevant to the fact that he needed someone else to beat Taker for him viciousness alone doesn't equate to victory.

No it doesn't. It takes a lot of intelligence too, which is something Brock easily loses to Shawn in.

When HBK entered that Kane, Jericho and Triple H were left. Now correct me if I am wrong but HBK the 6th entrant was not in that match for long when Kane the number 5 entrant had been eliminated leaving only Triple H and Jericho the number 2 and 3 entrants respectively. So he is 15 minutes fresher than Jericho and 20 fresher than Triple H. That in itself shows just how the odds were stacked in his favour.

He's also got far worse cardio and I believe kicked out of the Pedigree. HHH was in total control and loaded up another Pedigree before Shawn kicked him in the face for the title. Kind of like he could and would do here.

He won his first world title against Bret Hart a guy who would be no bigger than Shawn compared to Brock Lesnar a guy who would of been destroying HBK the whole match and is a whole lot bigger.

Bottom line I find it hard to believe Shawn Michaels would win this match it seems like another Great American Bash 2008 for him.

Matches aren't stopped in ECW so no it wouldn't be.

 

[Jaffa]

Matches aren't stopped in ECW so no it wouldn't be.

Not what I was referring I was referring to the absolute destruction of HBK and a dominating victory