Domestic football - spam version

[L@RISANO]

I can totally see what your saying with regards to the standards of EPL teams in Europe. But having said that I would still go on record to say the EPL is the most exciting league in the world. Yeah fair enough it is a rarity now for an EPL team to make the Semi-Finals/Final apart from Chelsea over the last few years. I would say that in regards to the top top ( Harry Redknapp) teams in Europe the EPL doesn't have much of a say right now. That would probably go Real/Bayern/Barca then Juve/Atletico/Chelsea/Psg. That's just my opinion chances are I have forgot someone.
The reason I would say the EPL is the most exciting is because of the sheer unpredictability. Year on year we don't know who is going to finish in the top 4 these days let alone who's going to win the title. Compare this to the La Liga you can pretty much guarantee the 2 Madrids then Barca with a mix of either Sevilla or Valencia. In Germany its always Bayern dominating and over in Serie A we have Juve and Roma. Now if you compare this to the Epl at the start of a season you have 4 or 5 names in the hat who could win the league and up to 7 or 8 teams who can qualify for the Champions League.
Now granted it hasn't always been this competitive in the Epl it has only begun over the last 4 or 5 years. I think the decline of English teams in Europe has some correlation with how much more competitive the Epl has become recently.
So yeah whilst English clubs don't dominate Europe as much I think and argument can be made for the Epl still been the best league down to competition.


WACCOE/MOT/WAFLL

But, in the EPL, isn't it always Chelsea, Arsenal, ManCity as constants, with Liverpool and post-Fergie ManU fighting also. Ye, you might get your Spurs and this year, Southampton/Newcastle types but there are such clubs in other leagues as well... for instance, Athletic Bilbao were in the UCL this year and neither Sevilla(who won last year's Europa) nor Valencia made it. Villareal is also going to be back in the mix again as well....


Not much difference in either league when you look at it, other than the fact that following the EPL's teams are much easier in this part of the world due to its marketing.

 

[Барбоса]

To say that the Premier League is not competitive is to take a too narrow meaning of "competitive." It does not just mean who wins it in the end compared to who is expected to win it. And when supporters of English football talk up the competitiveness of their league they are not talking about who wins it in the end. They are talking about how close a large number of the games are.

If anything, in an overall sense, the Premier League is too competitive for its own good. So many teams, like the aforementioned Pulis teams, are capable of beating so many other top teams. That tires out the top teams playing in Europe more than the glorified training sessions that many teams like Barca, Real and Bayern get to play. I would also say that there is far less fear of the big teams in England than in say Spain or Germany. You could argue that that stems somewhat from English football being tougher and more honest than a lot of European leagues. Pulis-led teams can get away with harder tackles in England than they ever would in Spain, allowing them to put big teams under more pressure.

Another misunderstanding with regard to this discussion is what is meant by "best." It does not mean that people think that the top teams are the best in Europe/world but that the overall standard of each team would appear to be higher and the games are more competitive.

 

[L@RISANO]

To say that the Premier League is not competitive is to take a too narrow meaning of "competitive." It does not just mean who wins it in the end compared to who is expected to win it. And when supporters of English football talk up the competitiveness of their league they are not talking about who wins it in the end. They are talking about how close a large number of the games are.

If anything, in an overall sense, the Premier League is too competitive for its own good. So many teams, like the aforementioned Pulis teams, are capable of beating so many other top teams. That tires out the top teams playing in Europe more than the glorified training sessions that many teams like Barca, Real and Bayern get to play. I would also say that there is far less fear of the big teams in England than in say Spain or Germany. You could argue that that stems somewhat from English football being tougher and more honest than a lot of European leagues. Pulis-led teams can get away with harder tackles in England than they ever would in Spain, allowing them to put big teams under more pressure.

Another misunderstanding with regard to this discussion is what is meant by "best." It does not mean that people think that the top teams are the best in Europe/world but that the overall standard of each team would appear to be higher and the games are more competitive.

Or on the flip side; it could just mean that the Top Teams in the EPL are of a lower standard compared to the Top Teams in Spain and Germany(European performance would back that up somewhat in recent years especially) and thus, it means that lower teams compete more with the 'top teams' in the EPL.


Again, it takes me back to my original comment which was with regards to the "Standard of the Prem" schtick that gets pushed by EPL commentators,etc... That standard is referred to as Барбоса above did; in that it is said with a meaning of "EPL is the highest standard of football around" which obviously can't be true given its state in European competition in recent times...

 

[Барбоса]

Yes, the English league can (and probably do) have the highest overall standard of teams but not have the overall best individual teams.

Essentially, there is far less of a gap between the top and bottom teams than in other countries. That can add to the entertainment value of each game.

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

Wait the EPL isn't competitive? Since when?

 

[Alastor]

To say that the Premier League is not competitive is to take a too narrow meaning of "competitive." It does not just mean who wins it in the end compared to who is expected to win it. And when supporters of English football talk up the competitiveness of their league they are not talking about who wins it in the end. They are talking about how close a large number of the games are.

You mean games where one team 'park the bus' for 90 minutes hoping to nick a goal? You want exciting and competitive matches go watch the Bundesliga.

If anything, in an overall sense, the Premier League is too competitive for its own good. So many teams, like the aforementioned Pulis teams, are capable of beating so many other top teams. That tires out the top teams playing in Europe more than the glorified training sessions that many teams like Barca, Real and Bayern get to play. I would also say that there is far less fear of the big teams in England than in say Spain or Germany. You could argue that that stems somewhat from English football being tougher and more honest than a lot of European leagues. Pulis-led teams can get away with harder tackles in England than they ever would in Spain, allowing them to put big teams under more pressure.

What a bunch of SkySports propaganda. You could argue the English game is of higher intensity and more physically taxing that makes for better TV watching. But that isn't 'competitive'. If the situation was the other way around, you would be sprouting the 'lack of competition' prevent English teams from having meaningful domestic matches to prepare for Europe's elites.

Another misunderstanding with regard to this discussion is what is meant by "best." It does not mean that people think that the top teams are the best in Europe/world but that the overall standard of each team would appear to be higher and the games are more competitive.

The standard SHOULD be better given how cash rich the league has become. This is a world where Hull City can outbid the Italian champions. Yet we still have teams playing dire football in the name of 'tactics'.

Yes, the English league can (and probably do) have the highest overall standard of teams but not have the overall best individual teams.

Essentially, there is far less of a gap between the top and bottom teams than in other countries. That can add to the entertainment value of each game.

The gap is growing from the top to the bottom. You can almost make a list of who make up the top 5 or 6 teams in the English league every season before a ball is kicked.

 

[L@RISANO]

Yes, the English league can (and probably do) have the highest overall standard of teams but not have the overall best individual teams.

Essentially, there is far less of a gap between the top and bottom teams than in other countries. That can add to the entertainment value of each game.

European performances by EPL teams say otherwise, so I can't agree with the notion of EPL having a higher overall standard at all... EPL just have more money to go around, too bad it doesn't seem to make much of a difference in performances...

 

[Tastycles]

Fulham got to the Europa League final. Everton, who are dog shit, will probably be in the quarter final. If teams try, they do well. Hull, Liverpool and Spurs played their reserves in the tournament. The Europa League is treated as a side show by English teams because the money for winning it is literally less than the difference between finishing 5th and 10th in the Premier League.

If the premier league is not the most competitive league, what is? The Spanish league has teams that can't get sponsors, bayern are about 25 points clear of Schalke and further from Dortmund, the only other german teams to have had any European impact. And the teams at the bottom of Serie A are all bankrupt.

The premier league teams struggle in Europe because they can't win 5-0 every week like Barcelona and Real Madrid can. It's hard to beat Crystal Palace, so the players get tired. When Ronaldo played for Man United, he hit 30 league goals once. Since he's been at Real Madrid he's got at least 40 a season.

The other thing is the completely ludicrous situation that they have in Spain where Barcelona and Real Madrid get more money than everyone else from TV, perpetuating their dominance. Someone tried to do what City and Chelsea have done with Malaga, and it blew up in their face. This also means that they can dictate when they play - never on a Sunday before a champions league knock out game, in fact they're often given the weekend off to prepare.

As for predictability. I'd love to see your predictions for Liverpool before last season or Southampton this year.

 

[Барбоса]

You mean games where one team 'park the bus' for 90 minutes hoping to nick a goal? You want exciting and competitive matches go watch the Bundesliga.

While not exciting, 'parking the bus' is in itself an attempt to make games competitive.

I will admit that in the Age of Money, football in general has gone down a "try not to lose" rather than "try to win." We saw that at the WC in 2010 with so many teams deploying two defensive midfielders and it was dire.

Now, you could bring up how good the last World Cup was to refute that but that would overlook the fact that the WC was exciting because virtually no team had anything approaching a decent defence. The Premier League has gone the same way.

What a bunch of SkySports propaganda. You could argue the English game is of higher intensity and more physically taxing that makes for better TV watching. But that isn't 'competitive'. If the situation was the other way around, you would be sprouting the 'lack of competition' prevent English teams from having meaningful domestic matches to prepare for Europe's elites.

Of course, it is competitive. Top teams have to work hard to get their 2-0 victory over Stoke or Palace rather than glorified training session 5-0 victories over Alicante.

What I would say beyond the physical argument, is that the type of competition provided for the top teams by the rest of the EPL does not prepare them well for Europe along with the or the expectation that they will be treated as leniently by European referees.

The standard SHOULD be better given how cash rich the league has become. This is a world where Hull City can outbid the Italian champions. Yet we still have teams playing dire football in the name of 'tactics'.

That dire football is employed out of need to stay in the league by being competitive...

The gap is growing from the top to the bottom. You can almost make a list of who make up the top 5 or 6 teams in the English league every season before a ball is kicked.

The spread of cash in the Premier League is far better than the rest of the top leagues, aside from probably Germany.

European performances by EPL teams say otherwise, so I can't agree with the notion of EPL having a higher overall standard at all... EPL just have more money to go around, too bad it doesn't seem to make much of a difference in performances...

But the English teams playing in Europe (largely) represent just the top teams, which only provides evidence that those top teams have dropped/not kept up in standard over the last 2-3 years.

Less of gap in quality/more competitiveness between the teams at the top and bottom can provide a better average standard of Premier League team than the rest of the major European leagues without the top teams challenging for the top honours in Europe.

With regard to the standard of those top teams (and in some ways the watchability of much of the league), the worst thing to happen to the Premier League was a good Man Utd team being dealt with with ease by Barcelona in those Champions League Finals. After that, several top English teams tried to recreate the dominating possession (boring) game that Barca could employ due to the brilliance of their midfielders.

But instead of having the like of Xavi, Iniesta and Messi, English teams were trying it with players like Carrick, Gerrard, Wilshire, Obi Mikel etc., who were completely unsuited to such a style.

Not only that, such tiki taka type possession and pressing is employed at the expense of a stable defensive unit, something that English teams built a lot of their success on, and you could argue that most English teams have yet to recover from that experiment. (The drought of world class centre halves hasn't helped).

 

[Alastor]

This notion that good EPL teams have to work hard to get a win at 'Stoke' or 'Palace' while the top teams in other leagues have a walkover of their domestic equivalent is pure propaganda from the British media. The same ones that made the Xavi who? comments in the past. The overall standard of the Bundesliga is better than the Premier League at the moment. It is just Bayern is ridiculously much better. If anything, the Bundesliga has copied the EPL model of fast pace football for the television audience and is slowly getting better at promoting it.

I guess Liverpool weren't trying in the Champions League this year too and dropped out into the Europa league due to apathy. I guess the dominance of the English clubs in Europe in the past decade was due to the dominance of the 'Big 4' in the English league so they don't need to try against the likes of Stoke while the likes of Barcelona and Real struggled to reach 100 points in the domestic league.

Almost all the domestic leagues have flaws. I don't see how the English League can proclaim to be the most competitive or unpredictable when they haven't produced a surprise winner since its inception as 'the bestest best league in the world'. While even the most lope-sided leagues from France to Germany to Spain has produced more recent surprise winners.

 

[Gelgarin]

I do love some football propaganda.

 

[L@RISANO]

Fulham got to the Europa League final. Everton, who are dog shit, will probably be in the quarter final. If teams try, they do well. Hull, Liverpool and Spurs played their reserves in the tournament. The Europa League is treated as a side show by English teams because the money for winning it is literally less than the difference between finishing 5th and 10th in the Premier League.

If the premier league is not the most competitive league, what is? The Spanish league has teams that can't get sponsors, bayern are about 25 points clear of Schalke and further from Dortmund, the only other german teams to have had any European impact. And the teams at the bottom of Serie A are all bankrupt.

The premier league teams struggle in Europe because they can't win 5-0 every week like Barcelona and Real Madrid can. It's hard to beat Crystal Palace, so the players get tired. When Ronaldo played for Man United, he hit 30 league goals once. Since he's been at Real Madrid he's got at least 40 a season.

The other thing is the completely ludicrous situation that they have in Spain where Barcelona and Real Madrid get more money than everyone else from TV, perpetuating their dominance. Someone tried to do what City and Chelsea have done with Malaga, and it blew up in their face. This also means that they can dictate when they play - never on a Sunday before a champions league knock out game, in fact they're often given the weekend off to prepare.

As for predictability. I'd love to see your predictions for Liverpool before last season or Southampton this year.

That seems the popular fall back for EPL fans, the notion of them not trying, rather than admitting that they just aren't able to compete with continental sides.... Weren't Liverpool in the UCL this year also? And they got their asses handed to them in a weak group from which they were expected to progress.


Meanwhile, Spanish teams from that dire league continue to have teams who do well both in UCL and in Europa whilst still fighting for European spots in the league.


At this very moment, both the EPL and La Liga actually have similar league standings in terms of how the points are shared, etc.


At the top(1-2); Chelsea lead ManCity by 5 points with a game in hand, whilst Barcelona lead Real Madrid by a single point.


Further back, the EPL has one more team competing for the final UCL spots 3-7(Arsenal(54), ManU, Lpool, Spurs, Saints(49)), but, it is possible that in a couple of weeks time, all of the clubs in EPL(fighting for European spots) will only have the league to contend with apart from a couple who might have an odd FA Cup fixture here or there.
In La Liga, 3-6(A.Madrid(55), Valencia, Sevilla, Vreal(48)) are all close together and all but one, are still fighting in European Competition.


Also, if you actually look at the respective league tables, you'll also notice that there is also a closer fight for the bottom ten in La Liga than in the EPL:

No.8 in La Liga is 15 points ahead of the last placed team, whilst in the EPL...the difference from no.8 to the end is 24 points....


So much for your competitiveness argument with regards to both sides of the table at this point.



That said;
my argument was with the "Standard of the EPL" schtick that is bandied about and not neccessarily the 'competitiveness of the league'.
And again, the only real gauge is European competition, and it seems that whilst EPL teams only care about the UCL and not the Europa, they seemingly suck at both given the results in the past couple of seasons...and it seems to be getting worse rather than better, as it seems possible that not a single EPL team will make it to the QFs of the UCL this year, whilst only Everton has a chance in the Europa.

 

[L@RISANO]

I don't watch the BuLi much, but checking the League Standings, I just saw that Bayern as usual, is running away with it(61 points), and in 2nd place behind them is Wolfsburg(50 points).

The difference however, between 3rd and Last place in the BundesLiga is a mere 21 points.
How's that for competitiveness??

 

[L@RISANO]

Arsenal and ManCity still have a chance of progression as Schalke showed this week, so there might be still some hope left for the EPL, even though it is sort of an uphill struggle at this point.

 

[Барбоса]

This notion that good EPL teams have to work hard to get a win at 'Stoke' or 'Palace' while the top teams in other leagues have a walkover of their domestic equivalent is pure propaganda from the British media.

How is it "propaganda" when I have seen it with my own eyes? Barcelona and Real winning easily playing at half-pace against the majority of La Liga.

Admittedly, that is me watching on Sky Sports who are part of the anti-European UK media cabal, doctoring live footage and in no way fawn over La Liga in their coverage so much that it becomes sickening, despite how the match they are covering was a walk in the park/complete shite.

 

[Stone Cold Tea]

But, in the EPL, isn't it always Chelsea, Arsenal, ManCity as constants, with Liverpool and post-Fergie ManU fighting also. Ye, you might get your Spurs and this year, Southampton/Newcastle types but there are such clubs in other leagues as well... for instance, Athletic Bilbao were in the UCL this year and neither Sevilla(who won last year's Europa) nor Valencia made it. Villareal is also going to be back in the mix again as well....


Not much difference in either league when you look at it, other than the fact that following the EPL's teams are much easier in this part of the world due to its marketing.

The thing is it is always going right down to the wire in regards to 4-7 positions. Couple that with the fact you can't really predict who will win the PL at the start f the season whereas with Primera its generally Real or Barca (due to unfair distribution of t.v rights) then that sucks the fun out of it.

With Spanish teams winning in Europe lately I just put that down to a cycle. A few years ago England was dominating Europe. If English teams put out a strong eleven in Europa league and not reserves and they would progress.


Waccoe/Wafll/Mot

 

[Tastycles]

Liverpool have been poor in every competition until very recently. The 7th placed team in England lost out to 1st place in Spain and Basel, who aren't as shit as everyone assumes they are. Spurs have repeatedly made 7+ changes for Europa League games and they go out in the same round every year. Like I said, the last English side that tried got to the final whilst finishing 12th in the league. Middlesbrough also made it to the final in the last ten years. It's a pile of shit that English clubs don't take seriously.

You can look at the points but look at the reality of it. In the last three seasons Real Madrid have lost 12 league games in 3 seasons whilst only winning the league once. That's the gulf between the best and rest there. Barcelona and Real Madrid have finished in the top 3 every single season of the last 12, no English side has.

Whatever way you boil it down, Chelsea won the champions league less than three years ago with a team that finished 6th in the Premier League. I'm not a particular Premier League fan, just a realist. Since 2004, 4 different teams have won the league, only two have defended it during that time. You could argue that bundesliga is competitive if Bayern have an off year, but La Liga is shit.

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

Ehhhh.... I don't agree that La Liga is shit. What I will say that it needs to improve. Athletico "is" getting there though. The problem is the fact that nobody really gives a shit about the other teams if they aren't Madrid or Barcelona. That's where the money is unfortunately...

 

[L@RISANO]

The thing is it is always going right down to the wire in regards to 4-7 positions. Couple that with the fact you can't really predict who will win the PL at the start f the season whereas with Primera its generally Real or Barca (due to unfair distribution of t.v rights) then that sucks the fun out of it.

With Spanish teams winning in Europe lately I just put that down to a cycle. A few years ago England was dominating Europe. If English teams put out a strong eleven in Europa league and not reserves and they would progress.


Waccoe/Wafll/Mot

Who can't really predict who wins the prem at the start of the season?

Chelsea/ManCity and no other real contenders given ManU's recent disappearance... so I guess there ain't any fun in Prem either(based on what you claim about La Liga)


As for the part about Europe.... I guess you admit that the "Standards of EPL" schtick is a load of BS... which was my point all along.

And using IF doesn't cut it.... in La Liga, clubs like Sevilla/Atletico/Valencia all compete in Europa with strong teams and still fight on both fronts... I guess that the inability of EPL to 'give a shit' is more along the lines of 'they can't compete on both domestic and european fronts at the same time'...

 

[L@RISANO]

Liverpool have been poor in every competition until very recently. The 7th placed team in England lost out to 1st place in Spain and Basel, who aren't as shit as everyone assumes they are. Spurs have repeatedly made 7+ changes for Europa League games and they go out in the same round every year. Like I said, the last English side that tried got to the final whilst finishing 12th in the league. Middlesbrough also made it to the final in the last ten years. It's a pile of shit that English clubs don't take seriously.

You can look at the points but look at the reality of it. In the last three seasons Real Madrid have lost 12 league games in 3 seasons whilst only winning the league once. That's the gulf between the best and rest there. Barcelona and Real Madrid have finished in the top 3 every single season of the last 12, no English side has.

Whatever way you boil it down, Chelsea won the champions league less than three years ago with a team that finished 6th in the Premier League. I'm not a particular Premier League fan, just a realist. Since 2004, 4 different teams have won the league, only two have defended it during that time. You could argue that bundesliga is competitive if Bayern have an off year, but La Liga is shit.

So basically, you just admitted that EPL teams can't really compete on both domestic and european levels at the same time, then?


Real have also been to the UCL semis for the past 4 seasons also... so I am glad that they have backed that up by doing so well in the league also.
Again, that just shows that the "Top" EPL teams are inferior in comparison to Real and Barca as the other La Liga sides are...


Again, your Chelsea point proves that ManU in 07-08 aside, EPL sides can't fight on both domestic and european fronts without falling way short in one(Chelsea/Lpool, Boro/Fulham).
Since 2004 in La Liga, 4 Teams have won the league and only 2 have defended it in that time.


As for your final sentence...
you can do better than that...

 

[L@RISANO]

Ehhhh.... I don't agree that La Liga is shit. What I will say that it needs to improve. Athletico "is" getting there though. The problem is the fact that nobody really gives a shit about the other teams if they aren't Madrid or Barcelona. That's where the money is unfortunately...

Majority of teams in the world are inferior to both Barca and Real regardless of which league they are in... so not being at their level isn't really some disgrace as you claim...



Here is an interesting piece of info:

Since "2004";
La Liga has provided 12 Different participants in the Champions League Group Stages.
EPL has provided 6 Different participants in the Champions League Group Stages.
BuLi has provided 8 Different participants in the Champions League Group Stages.
Ligue 1 has provided 8 Different participants in the Champions League Group Stages.
Serie A has provided 8 Different participants in the Champions League Group Stages.

 

[Барбоса]

Again, your Chelsea point proves that ManU in 07-08 aside, EPL sides can't fight on both domestic and european fronts without falling way short in one(Chelsea/Lpool, Boro/Fulham).

Or it could be suggesting the strength and depth of Premier League teams when its teams can challenge for and even win the European competitions and yet not finish in the top four or even top 10? Showing off its superior competiveness...

 

[Lee]

You're missing his point. He's saying the likes of Crystal Palace are more likely to beat Chelsea and therefore be competitive than Cordoba beating Barcelona.

 

[Gelgarin]

I vaguely recall Liverpool coming within a couple of points of winning the thing last year despite preseason odds of 33:1. But I think the point people are going for regarding predictability is that yes, I can predict the Premier League winner this season with roughly the same accuracy as La Liga.

The difference is that I can also predict who is going to win La Liga in five and ten years. Real or Barca have taken something like 25 of the last 30 seasons. Not only has the English top flight generated twice as many winners in the same time period, but literally no teams have managed to achieve the same kind of dominance.

The Spanish system is literally designed to keep the same two clubs at the top of the pyramid - which is what people are talking about when they call the league dull and uncompetitive.

 

[L@RISANO]

You're missing his point. He's saying the likes of Crystal Palace are more likely to beat Chelsea and therefore be competitive than Cordoba beating Barcelona.

but... both Barca and Real have lost more than Chelsea have in the EPL this season(double that of Chelsea actually)...


Difference between the two leagues is that Spanish fans prefer attacking styled football based on possession whilst English fans prefer defensive styled football with counter attacking and thus La Liga has less drawn games than in the EPL.