Dolph Ziggler: Why is he a face?

It's also a product of PG. If crowds are cheering it means the kids will be confused when the cheers are for a bad guy. By going with Super Cena and aiming the product it means that by definition popular has to mean good. Bryan is another classic of this although his kookiness does make him a lot more likeable than Zig. Part of PG means heels have to lose in the end to satisfy the PTC...so you can't stay heel and prosper..

The other side effect comes from WWE being desperate for that new poster boy, so any heel that has gotten over has to turn face after winning the title, kiss babies etc.... Orton did it, Del Rio did it, Sheamus did it. And so would Barrett, Cody, Sandow or Wyatt... if the product is aimed older its not an issue, a heel can carry the company, Flair proved that, so did Triple H, Kurt and even JBL.
 
I'm thinking sooner rather than later, AJ and Big E are going to turn on Ziggler maybe as soon as Money In The Bank. I can almost see Big E himself aligning with Del Rio in order to serve as his muscle like Brodus Clay once did before to protect his title while Ricardo sits out the next month. There is no way Ziggler can act as a "face" when you have his girlfriend and her "friend" antagonizing Kaitlyn week in and week out and being the epitome of heels.

Either they join with Del Rio or Big E steals the girl from Ziggler causing their imminent feud. Its obviously going to be one of the two scenarios because there is absolutely no way AJ can drop the crazy act just like that in order to stay with Dolph.

Or another possibility would be E knocks out Del Rio at MITB and Ziggler refuses to win that way and walks out. Its the oldest face trick in the book
 
It was a terrible face turn. It would seem as though Del Rio beat the evil out of Ziggler by giving him brain damage. I agree with the OP. At some point Ziggler is going to have to get on the mic and have his Rocky IV ("If I can change and You can change... We all can change!") moment otherwise his face turn won't stick.
 
It's also a product of PG. If crowds are cheering it means the kids will be confused when the cheers are for a bad guy. By going with Super Cena and aiming the product it means that by definition popular has to mean good. Bryan is another classic of this although his kookiness does make him a lot more likeable than Zig. Part of PG means heels have to lose in the end to satisfy the PTC...so you can't stay heel and prosper..

The other side effect comes from WWE being desperate for that new poster boy, so any heel that has gotten over has to turn face after winning the title, kiss babies etc.... Orton did it, Del Rio did it, Sheamus did it. And so would Barrett, Cody, Sandow or Wyatt... if the product is aimed older its not an issue, a heel can carry the company, Flair proved that, so did Triple H, Kurt and even JBL.

Did I really just see the shows' PG rating get blamed for something unrelated AGAIN?

Fine, time for this New Wave Knight to jump on his New Wave High Horse.

Anyone remember in WCW when the nWo laid waste to virtually everybody on the roster and didn't get their due justice about a year and a half after they formed?

Anyone remember a guy in WCW with a goatee, bald head, and black tights who was a face but didn't take time to kiss babies because he was too busy destroying heels?

Yeah, those shows were PG, and they didn't follow the mold you described. While they were keeping their shows PG, they were destroying the WWF in the ratings until 1999 too.

Heels turning babyface because they get cheered for being heels has NOTHING to do with the TV ratings. It has everything to do with one simple fact: heels don't sell merchandise. Why have a guy who the fans obviously like only help ticket/PPV sales and ratings when he can help ticket/PPV sales, ratings, AND sell a few extra t-shirts and hats?
 
He needs to cut some kind face promo. He doesn't have to turn into a full on baby face Dudley Do Right or anything. Just cut a promo on Del Rio and refrain from insulting the fans. Just let people know what your intentions are rather than the random attacks/squash matches that accomplish nothing since the fans that didn't actually see the PPV have no idea that you supposedly turned.

Well would you look at that? He didn't really pander to the fans, his character is still wholly intact, he just did exactly what I said he would do and now, he's a face. Whodathunkit?
 
At least he's somewhat interesting at this point.

I still think he's shit. I think he thinks he's far better than he really is, and that's annoying, but this hasn't been any worse than what he was doing before. I actually enjoyed the way he avoided a beating from 3MB. He still acts like a coward, but fans dig it... at least a little bit.

I think he's peaked, and that's a tough thing to face when you love skinny guys who are constantly moving and hitting moves with zero reason behind it. Still not a fan, but he isn't any worse.
 
At least he's somewhat interesting at this point.

I still think he's shit. I think he thinks he's far better than he really is, and that's annoying, but this hasn't been any worse than what he was doing before. I actually enjoyed the way he avoided a beating from 3MB. He still acts like a coward, but fans dig it... at least a little bit.

I think he's peaked, and that's a tough thing to face when you love skinny guys who are constantly moving and hitting moves with zero reason behind it. Still not a fan, but he isn't any worse.

I'm starting to soften on my hatred for him a little bit. He is a decent talker. He's a shit worker but if he just played to his "show off" persona during the matches a little more, he'd at least be interesting in the ring.
 
I'm starting to soften on my hatred for him a little bit. He is a decent talker.

I think he sits in that just below average category.

He's a shit worker but if he just played to his "show off" persona during the matches a little more, he'd at least be interesting in the ring.

See, I think that's the problem. He already plays to that persona, and that's why he's awful to watch. He's all about showing off, but gives me nothing to care about. Yes, Dolph, you deliver a beautiful dropkick. Yes, Dolph, you can jump really high. After you see that two or three times, the novelty wears off. I don't care how athletic you are. Kofi Kingston can do the same shit, and he's unbearable.

Prior to the Del Rio head crushing scene, Dolph was the worst seller in the business. Taking bumps and selling are two different things, children. However, the fantastic beating he took from Del Rio a few weeks back gives me hope. I don't hate him half as much as I did a month ago.
 
I think he sits in that just below average category.



See, I think that's the problem. He already plays to that persona, and that's why he's awful to watch. He's all about showing off, but gives me nothing to care about. Yes, Dolph, you deliver a beautiful dropkick. Yes, Dolph, you can jump really high. After you see that two or three times, the novelty wears off. I don't care how athletic you are. Kofi Kingston can do the same shit, and he's unbearable.

Prior to the Del Rio head crushing scene, Dolph was the worst seller in the business. Taking bumps and selling are two different things, children. However, the fantastic beating he took from Del Rio a few weeks back gives me hope. I don't hate him half as much as I did a month ago.

Well I wasn't really talking about him showing off his athleticism. You remember when he used to do that headstand thing whenever he had a guy down in a side headlock?

k4wOz.gif


Shit like this. It'll get him face pops and get the crowd more into his matches.
 
Did I really just see the shows' PG rating get blamed for something unrelated AGAIN?

Fine, time for this New Wave Knight to jump on his New Wave High Horse.

Anyone remember in WCW when the nWo laid waste to virtually everybody on the roster and didn't get their due justice about a year and a half after they formed?

Anyone remember a guy in WCW with a goatee, bald head, and black tights who was a face but didn't take time to kiss babies because he was too busy destroying heels?

Yeah, those shows were PG, and they didn't follow the mold you described. While they were keeping their shows PG, they were destroying the WWF in the ratings until 1999 too.

Heels turning babyface because they get cheered for being heels has NOTHING to do with the TV ratings. It has everything to do with one simple fact: heels don't sell merchandise. Why have a guy who the fans obviously like only help ticket/PPV sales and ratings when he can help ticket/PPV sales, ratings, AND sell a few extra t-shirts and hats?

Its absolutely relevant as WCW was a PG WRESTLING show... WWE is a PG soap that is based on wrestling. Its core market is children, their merchandising is geared towards it and with that comes inherent pressures from bodies like the PTC and the obligation to show bad guys getting their comeuppance. WCW was geared at late teens onwards, they were the ones buying merch,tickets and PPV's. In the WWE of today, Vince wants parents buy all three, anyone else is a bonus.

Every "cool heel" of the last ten years has had to go face to be the top dog in WWE. Even Cena himself and that will continue to be the case.

There is one scenario people aren't considering though, it might be Big E. Who ends up the face...
 
Its absolutely relevant as WCW was a PG WRESTLING show... WWE is a PG soap that is based on wrestling. Its core market is children, their merchandising is geared towards it and with that comes inherent pressures from bodies like the PTC and the obligation to show bad guys getting their comeuppance.

I've got to COMPLETELY disagree with the statement that WWE's core market is children because, frankly, the numbers dimply don't back it up. Moe than 3/4's of WWE's audience is made up of males 18 years and older. Just because WWE markets various toys doesn't indicate that their core market is children. The UFC also puts out action figures, t-shirts, posters and toy belts just as WWE and TNA do; but I think you can hardly claim UFC's core audience is children. Both Raw and SD! are almost always the overall top rated shows on cable on their respective nights both in terms of overall viewers and the key male demographic.

I don't understand why people interpret "family friendly" as automatically meaning "geared towards children". I'm no going to say that WWE doesn't appeal to kids, so many businesses do in fact, because kids grow up and continue to be fans just as we did. WWE would be foolish to ignore younger viewers altogether in this sense, but children only make up a small percentage of WWE's audience.

As for why Ziggler is a face, why not? If anything, he looks to be walking more along the lines of a tweener than anything else. His promo on SD! last night was very much a tweener promo in which he confirmed and stated that he's "cocky" and "arrogant" and that he was proud of it. He's definitely a tweener leaning more towards he babyface side of the fence, but it's not a traditional "good guy" by any stretch. With the cocky, show off heel character he's been for a while, Ziggler had gone pretty far but it was staring to get a little stale. Since WWE hasn't been ramming Ziggler down people's throats since his return, I'm guessing they're taking I slowly to ultimately gauge the reactions he gets to see if they want to keep him on his current course. Thus far, Ziggler's been getting good reactions, and I think WWE will get a real sense of his acceptance as a face a MITB, as Philly is a hot wrestling town.
 
Why is Dolph a face?....Because he needed a change after all this time as a heel..... one who has been featured like no mid-carder I've ever seen. Honestly, it was kind of interesting watching him using his elusiveness for good rather than evil. His wrestling routine is the same as it always was, and that's okay, too.

Frankly, I thought his match with Drew McIntyre was fine last night .....because of Drew. Yeah, I sound like a broken record, but Drew did some amazing strength moves, hoisting Dolph off the ground and maneuvering him in the air. The guy can really deliver the goods in a match. Naturally, that plays well with Dolph's forte of getting thrown around the ring.

Obviously, we knew Drew was going to lose (at this point, I don't think any member of 3MB could win a bubble gum popping contest in WWE) but I sure hope Drew Mac's turn is going to come soon. If it can happen to Curtis Axel, maybe there's hope for other guys who wait patiently (or impatiently).

Meanwhile, seeing Dolph operate on his own (no Spirit Squad, no Vickie, no AJ & Big E) is fine with me. He needed something new......and now he's got it. He'll be champion again soon; the company has spent way too much time and effort on Dolph to keep him away from the title.
 
The point is simple, Vince has ALWAYS been a child marketeer first and foremost. He saw the potential in making his father's product a vehicle for toys, merchandise and even a cartoon.

That the TV ratings are driven by young males is immaterial, the TV is one facet of the WWE, the characters interchangable but always geared to marketing in a child friendly way... Even adult gimmicks are softened to the point they can go in a stickerbook or a lunchbox.

Young males watch RAW and have arguments on the internet, some may buy the toys to "collect" or a shirt but the IWC don't monetize their interest in the same way kids do. Nothing has changed in nearly thirty years.

Attitude was not the masterstroke those adult fans make it out to be, it was a last gasp attempt to stop the WWF being wiped out that worked better than expected.

Triple H may see things differently but I have long said that I am certain Vince would love to sell to Disney before he actually let's it become a wrestling company again.
 
The point is simple, Vince has ALWAYS been a child marketeer first and foremost.

Bro, do you even Attitude Era?

Seriously, the AE was getting to be so vulgar that many parents, mine included (which didn't make much difference, since at age 11 I still enjoyed the great in-ring action and intricate plot twists of WCW far more than the over-the-top sex and profanity of the AE simply because I had a brain and didn't HAVE to have TV-MA shit to substitute for actual creative content), wouldn't let their kids watch the show.

To say that Vince has ALWAYS marketed to children is a gross overstatement.
 
Ziggler was cheered a lot but that's because people liked him for his COCKY and smart ass attitude that he displayed toward his opponents and his over confidence, they did the wrong thing by turning him face.. he was already over and selling merch in the role he was in, he could of eventually become a tweener to break away from AJ and Big E but that needed to happen naturally, they had better let him keep his cocky attitude and his im better than you attitude as a face or he will slowly dwindle down. Which none of us want to see happen.
 
Ziggler was cheered a lot but that's because people liked him for his COCKY and smart ass attitude that he displayed toward his opponents and his over confidence, they did the wrong thing by turning him face.. he was already over and selling merch in the role he was in, he could of eventually become a tweener to break away from AJ and Big E but that needed to happen naturally, they had better let him keep his cocky attitude and his im better than you attitude as a face or he will slowly dwindle down. Which none of us want to see happen.

Watch his recent Smackdown promo, he actually owned up to being Cocky but said he never pretended to be anything he wasn't.
 
As for why Ziggler is a face, why not?
More then anything, what I was asking is "What qualities is he attributing that make him a face?", more then the decision to turn him into one in the first place.

If anything, he looks to be walking more along the lines of a tweener than anything else. His promo on SD! last night was very much a tweener promo in which he confirmed and stated that he's "cocky" and "arrogant" and that he was proud of it. He's definitely a tweener leaning more towards he babyface side of the fence, but it's not a traditional "good guy" by any stretch.
Agreed, and this was the promo I was referring to in my opening post. He didn't downplay his cockiness or arrogance, rather, he made the point of accentuating the fact that he's both of those things. But he did it with a nod to the audience, one that acknowledged them as important without pandering. He then did something I think was necessary: He pointed out the differences between himself and Del Rio, and he nailed it.

With the cocky, show off heel character he's been for a while, Ziggler had gone pretty far but it was staring to get a little stale.
That may be so, but he hasn't shown an inkling towards changing that persona. In fact, those were the very traits that he accentuated last night, that he was honest about, and even demonstrated in the aftermath of his matches with both Mahal and McIntyre of 3MB. The difference, and one that's been subtle yet appreciated, is that he's toned it down. He's not going as over the top as he did before, which is a small, subtle difference, but an important one nonetheless.

Since WWE hasn't been ramming Ziggler down people's throats since his return, I'm guessing they're taking I slowly to ultimately gauge the reactions he gets to see if they want to keep him on his current course.
It reminds me of the return Edge made in 2010, to be honest. An injury, made sympathetic because of the opponent. However, as soon as Edge was done with Jericho, he once again turned heel.

And that's the challenge they'll face with Ziggler. He's sympathetic now, because of the actions of Alberto Del Rio. He's involved in a personal feud, one in which he's easy to side with. Following that is the challenge, as they've got to either find a reason to make it stick, or turn him back.

I'm leaning, based on his scolding of AJ backstage and his promo last night, of them making it stick. One would think that the payoff to this feud has to be Ziggler eventually regaining the title from Del Rio, but I'm guessing not until Summerslam. That gives them more time to not only gauge his reactions as a babyface, but to build him as a solid one who can go into the fall as one of the top ones in the company.

Last night was an excellent start as to what needs to be done with Ziggler. I don't mind a slow turn, as long as they plausibly explain it.
 
I'm actually happy Dolph is face. However, He should have turned face back when Vickie was his manager. I am happy I finally got my wish and hopefully he stays face for a long time and works his way up to be the top face of the company, knocking Cena of the park.
 
Is he really a face, all he's done since he's been back is wrestle 3mb twice, cut one promo about being cocky and such, and do another promo about telling AJ to chill out. How does this make him a face? Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see him as one but from what he's done so far I don't think he's a face yet, he may be going that way eventually but he's not there at this point.
 
Ziggler showed how great of promos he could do on Ryders show let him cut that kind of promo against a heel on tv he'd be even more over
 
The honest truth? Because he is this generation's Jeff Hardy who uses his body like a rag doll and put his body through unnecessary bumps. Fans dig that kind of stuff even if you suck on the mic or can't make a decent match without a ring general as your opponent.

As to how WWE can make full face turn for Ziggler, I say go full on the Eddie approach. Be that guy that wins with heelish moves against 'stronger' opponents but with a twinkle in the eye. A nudge nudge wink wink approach with the fans. Let them be part of the charade to fool the ref to win by DQ or maybe some other funny method like playing possum to the arrogant heel.
 
The honest truth? Because he is this generation's Jeff Hardy who uses his body like a rag doll and put his body through unnecessary bumps. Fans dig that kind of stuff even if you suck on the mic or can't make a decent match without a ring general as your opponent.

As to how WWE can make full face turn for Ziggler, I say go full on the Eddie approach. Be that guy that wins with heelish moves against 'stronger' opponents but with a twinkle in the eye. A nudge nudge wink wink approach with the fans. Let them be part of the charade to fool the ref to win by DQ or maybe some other funny method like playing possum to the arrogant heel.

That could work, but whoever the heel is needs to be pretty damn heelish. Booking 101: If you want to turn a heel into a face without doing it TOO abruptly, set him up in a feud with someone who is even more of a heel than him. That way he doesn't have to turn face so suddenly but he still looks like a nicer guy by comparison.
 
Watched WWE Main Event and it seems like Ziggler is using more of his amateur wrestling in his matches if his match against Cesaro is anything to go by. BOTH did great in this match and luckily Ziggler wasn't booked like a chicken shit.
 

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