Dolph Ziggler = HBK?

[Wrestlefan27]

Chris Cash's editorial is pretty thought provoking, regardless of whether you share the opinion that Ziggler has the potential to become another HBK.

It made me think about what similarities the two performers share and it made me question exactly when Shawn Michaels began to change into the legend, the greatest in-ring performer of all time.

Michaels started his singles career as the classic arrogant, vain, pretty boy heel. Ziggler did the same. The thing is, this gimmick is old and played out. It was when HBK was saddled with it.

So what does someone using this gimmick have to do to distinguish himself from all the others that came before? What was it that allowed HBK to become the "show stopper", the "main event", and "Mr. Wrestlemania"?

Is it consistent promo work? Consistent five star matches? Being part of a great stable with excellent foils? All of the above? Does Ziggler have the potential for any or all of these things?

At what point in the career of Shawn Michaels did he cease to be just another cocky heel and start to become the legend we all know and love today? When did he catch fire and take off?

I would argue that his ladder match with Scott Hall (Razor Ramon) was the catalyst. What do you think?

Looking back at the career of HBK, I think that he was involved in so many amazing "firsts" in the industry. I don't know if that kind of thing can be followed, because today's wrestling fan has pretty much seen it all. What kind of match could they possibly come up with that would be fresh and exciting without feeling laughable or overly contrived?

So, bearing all this in mind, is it fair to make the comparison between Ziggler and HBK? Does Ziggler have the potential to cease being just another cocky, pretty boy heel and become something as big as HBK? What do you think it takes?

 

[Detroitsandman]

The thing is you can say Ziggler is just another cocky pretty boy heel but the difference is that he is doing it his way. Everybody in the WWE could use the same gimmick but if they each do it their way then itll be new to us. WWE is bound to do some of the same stuff over again. Just like the Shield is just a smaller Nexus in disguise. Ziggler will be the new "HBK" persay but he will do it the Ziggler way or the Nick Namath way. Ziggler has brought the Art Of Wrestling back to wrestling. What Ziggler does in the ring is ART. Ziggler is his own man, and i dont like compairing wrestlers or sports athletes but yes Ziggler is kinda like the next Shawn Michaels.

 

[Wrestlefan27]

Can you please elaborate on your statement that Dolph is "doing it his way"? That's exactly what I'm looking for everyone to think and talk about. What IS his way? What is it that makes him different? It is exactly as you say, each person is doing it differently than before, and I'm looking for an analysis of what they are doing to distinguish themselves and set themselves apart. Can you be more specific?

 

[Jack-Hammer]

There have been comparisons to Ziggler with wrestlers like HBK and Curt Hennig for a couple of years now. Me personally, I never really put much stock in the so & so is the next Shawn Michaels or the next Bret Hart or the next Brock Lesnar or whatever. From the start, it almost sounds like it's setting the wrestlers up to fail because, and this is especially true among internet fans, NOBODY can equal their wrestling heroes they watched growing up.

I don't personally care who the next HBK is or whatever. I guess that's one reason why I've continued to enjoy pro wrestling over the years. Most of the time, I don't try to compare wrestlers now to wrestlers I liked when I was growing up. Even when I sometimes do, I do my best not to let nostalgia get in the way because, all in all, there are a good number of guys on the WWE roster right now that, in many ways, are light years ahead of where some of my favorites growing up were.

Dolph Ziggler is someone that has a bright future. People have been saying that for a long while now but it's become more and more obvious in the past month or so since his split from Vickie Guerrero. Ziggler has long since demonstrated that he's one of the top guys in the ring in any company and he's been doing quite well on the mic as of late especially. If Ziggler is to become "the next HBK" or whatever, then he's certainly headed in the right direction.

 

[OneLoneSapper]

I don't see it, I really don't. I can see where the comparisons started, but at this point the comparisons are smaller and less legitimate.

Both started as tag teams/stables. HBK with Janetti and Ziggler with the Spirit Squad. Both rose above those humble beginnings to become legitimate singles stars with the help of a female manager. Sherri Martel in the case of Shawn, and Vicki Guerrero with Dolph.

Here is where things start to change in the comparison though. Shawn leaves Sherri because they want to prove that he can do it by himself. The powers that be felt he could get over by himself. In Dolph's case though, they simply replaced Vicki with AJ. It shows a certain lack in faith that Dolph is capable of getting over on his own.

You can say that Shawn had Diesel as a bodyguard and maybe that is the direction Dolph is going with Big E, but the way it is being spinned right now it is AJ who is doing all of the thinking. It looks like she brought in Big E, not Dolph.

Shawn went on to form DX with Hunter, Chyna and Rick Rude. The jury is still out on what Dolph will do as far as that goes. Right now though, it doesn't look like Dolph can do it on his own, it's always the woman he is with that does things to get him his opportunities he gets. Is he capable, maybe. But untill he is on his own, who knows.

 

[uvx]

Comparing Dolph to HBK can also be a bad thing.
People will set their expectations far too high if he is compared to someone of the calibre of Shawn Michaels.
Dolph and HBK have similarities such as the pretty boy who make everyone in the ring look amazing. But Ziggler has a long way to go to match up to HBK.

 

[WWEcreatist]

I agree with jack-Hammer he hit the nail on the head there (sorry had to).

Our favorite wrestlers while growing up are what allow us to form an opinion on who is awesome and what type of wrestling style we lean towards.
Undertaker's agility mixed with the fact that he is a Brawler
Ultimate Warrior's size and strength
HBK's speed and stamina

Before JoMo got "Future Endeavored" I thought that he was going to be the next HBK until i realized his mic skills weren't so hot.

But Dolph Ziggler has taken the whole cocky and arrogant heel aspect and worked it in his favor. The only thing is while you can compare wrestlers there will always be someone that may come along that you may feel is more like one past wrestler than
another.

He maybe on to something though because he absolutely has a bright future the business.

 

[kingk12]

Dolph Ziggler is similar to HBK, but two different superstars, two different eras. Dolph is going to surpass Shawn for one reason...The Internet (Twitter). If Twitter were around when Shawn was in his prime who knows, he would have been a bigger name than he already is. I think Ziggler's interaction with the fans is one of the things that distinguishes him from Shawn. Another difference between Shawn and Ziggler is that Ziggler is real, Shawn was a character, Ziggler is a showoff and thats his personality.

Also, I know there are a lot of comparisons that Ziggler is like Billy Gunn. I believe that John Morrison is the new Billy Gunn. He is an excellent tag wrestler, but just doesn't have the mic skills or "it factor" to make it as a superstar.

 

[JGlass]

The thing is you can say Ziggler is just another cocky pretty boy heel but the difference is that he is doing it his way. Everybody in the WWE could use the same gimmick but if they each do it their way then itll be new to us. WWE is bound to do some of the same stuff over again. Just like the Shield is just a smaller Nexus in disguise. Ziggler will be the new "HBK" persay but he will do it the Ziggler way or the Nick Namath way. Ziggler has brought the Art Of Wrestling back to wrestling. What Ziggler does in the ring is ART. Ziggler is his own man, and i dont like compairing wrestlers or sports athletes but yes Ziggler is kinda like the next Shawn Michaels.

This is so crazy, but after my morning coffee I took a dump that looked JUST LIKE this post. That's where the similarities end, though, as my post was only half as malodorous as this piece of shit.

How exactly is Ziggler doing anything "his own way," and how have you reached this conclusion? Isn't his entire gimmick pretty much a ripoff of Mr. Perfect, from his hair to his showing off to his constant bragging about being the best? And even if you could convince me (you never could, so don't try) that Ziggler's character is original from the hundreds of cocky heels that preceded him, how do you know that this character is his design? Do you really think that Ziggler, a guy who has been jerked around by the WWE for his entire career, is the one calling the shots when it comes to the creative direction of his character, a privilege reserved for the John Cenas and Undertakers of the WWE? He's not. Everything he does has been carefully scripted and rehearsed, and much like matches, he still manages to consistently fuck up.

Comparing Dolph Ziggler to HBK is ridiuclous. HBK was a douche that could put on a great show. Dolph Ziggler is a douche.

 

[Loveless]

At the moment I'd say Ziggler is pre Wrestlemania X HBK. He has the attitude, the bodyguard, the in-ring talent. What he's lacking is the classic match on his resume, the credibility as a main-eventer and the influence and inventiveness that allowed Shawn to always book an interesting end to his matches.
Watching him in the last couple of weeks, he's clearly now started to turn the corner but there's a big problem. There's no popular face for him to dethrone and with Wrestlemania season starting at the Rumble, there is a big risk he is about to get lost in the shadow of Rock, Brock, Taker, HHH etc. That would be a real shame if his first legitimate title reign ended up being forgotten.

 

[dtroppe]

No Ziggler marks no. HBKs career was like a snowball running down a mountain- it kept gaining momentum and getting bigger and bigger. Ziggler isnt even the top guy in WWE at a time when the ratings are very low and the there is no great competition. If he was truly the next HBK he would shine amongst all the mid-card type talent at the top of the card- like Shemus, CM Punk, and Big Show. HBK was innovative and helped put wrestling on a course to its most profitable days. Is Ziggler doing anything like that? I don't know cause I can barely watch 10 mins of the current product.

 

[WWEvsJosh]

I dont dislike Ziggler like i used to BUT he is not HBK. If he was he would be in the main event of many ppv's by now. He will win the world title but he will never be the guy.

 

[xavyer]

Dolph Ziggler is a phenomenal athlete, and he's getting better every day, but he's a long way from Shawn Michaels' level, Shawn Michaels was a guy who was allways innovating himself, he was a first ever in a lot of things, he's the reason why DX was succesfull, he put Diesel on the map, he basicly made Triple H and Chyna, he helped Ahmed Johnson get noticed, he was part of many historic moments in wrestling history, and he did a lot of those things in the same amount of time that Ziggler has been in the WWE, and Zigglers greatest acomplisments so far: WHC for a few minutes, and winning a money in the bank latter match, don't get me wrong, i like Dolph Ziggler as much as the next guy, and he can be a big time player some day, but he will never be a Shawn Michaels, he may become something different, but not like Shawn......

 

[Pedigree1]

You know there something i hate more than anything that this person is the next so and so! Yes comparison wise Ziggler does remind us of HBK! The cocky Demeanor the attitude. But i think Ziggler is a bit more athletic than HBK! Ziggler has all the tools. The man is gonna be a world champion very soon and a multiple one at that.

The only thing holding this man back is a feud with someone that he can have a classic match with. Ziggler to me is hot right now! The next HBK (No theres only one of him). His split from Vickie its time for Ziggler to shine now. And shine he will

 

[obamartins]

I am sick of hearing this god damn comparison. I don't see the similarities. I am not impressed by Dolph Ziggler at all, he still has not won me over. I could give two flying f***s if he can bump well & has good work rate. I bet the same people who bash Jeff Jarrett are the same people who praise this guy...the mind boggles. I could go on a rant but it would be pointless. Why the IWC has latched onto this guy I just cannot comprehend, I guess the standard people accept now are just much lower then it was in the past. Have fun with your Dolph Ziggler & The Miz while the business continues to decline...I'll be watching classics with Macho Man Randy Savage & Ric Flair.

 

[Brewski]

I hate "the next" comparisons. It's the dumbest dumbest dumbest way to talk about any athletes including wrestlers. All it does it cut down anyones ability to create their own legacy because of expectations of being identical to a past star. Think about all the "next" Michael Jordans there have been. Penny Hardaway was the first, then grant hill, Tracy Mcgrady, Vince Carter, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, and on and on. Yet at the end of the day nobody plays like MJ and you you have players that ended up with disappointing careers as they couldn't achieve impossible goals.

The fact is I can only really recall 2 wrestlers in history that I would consider "the next" anyone and they were both direct and acknowledged take aways from past gimmicks. Nature Boy Rick Flair is the next Nature Boy Buddy Rodgers. Flair took his nick name and gimmick directly, hell it even benefits Rodgers since the only reason I know any damn thing about him is because of Flair. The other wrestler that comes to mind is Jay Lethal becoming Randy savage. This started as a joke really since Jay was a macho man fan and turned into his actual character. I wouldn't even really count this one but the gimmick lasted freaking forever. I think because obviousness of their parodies the similarities were more forgivable and it was easier for fans to accept them and allow their success.

Other wrestlers have performed very similar past stars but not were able to differentiate themselves enough to have legacies beyond comparison. Triple H pretty much was Harley Race. Chris Benoit pretty much was Dynamite Kid. Yet both of these guys managed to stand out from the pack.

To have the kind of success HBK has takes a real perfect storm to achieve. It takes the right combination of gimmick, matches, push from your bosses, and most importantly, memorable moments. It's impossible to just replicate these qualities for anyone to succeed. It's not like the WWE hasn't tried either. The combination of star, Girlfriend/manager, and bodyguard? Done hundreds of times. Cocky guy? You mean every heel ever in the history of heels?

I was worried when I clicked the link for Cash's article because I thought it would be another stupid "next" comparison, but was ok with learning he meant more about how his push could work. While I agree that Dolph is in a similar place to where HBK was not long after he left The Rockers, the formula isn't a one size fits all application for success. Dolph needs to be paired up with interesting feuds and be able to not be the punching bag for the stars. It's far too often Dolph comes off a big win just to be pinned by a higher up guy on TV, IMO thats the single most detrimental flaw to him becoming a believable champion. Once he starts winning once a week instead of once a month then it'll be his time.

EDIT: I think it's important to note that (at least im my opinion) Shawn did not really transition to being other-worldly legend until he returned after his first retirement to wrestle. It's then where he was able to really play a nostalgia role after his prime had passed. Not saying he didn't put on great matches, but it's really easy for a past star to come back and become more popular than ever, Suddenly all you think about is the great times of the past and forget any bad memories. It's like the past is made better by present accomplishments.

 

[Brewski]

To add on I'm a huge Ziggler fan and and have just been waiting and waiting for his main event jump. I think the wait has been reasonable to build him up but i've been disappointed with the actual building part. I'm happy they finally gave him some traction to work with. What bugs me the most is the constant comparisons that just don't make any God damn sense. They're always based on a few weak similarities and do nothing to help the wrestler themselves. Oh so he sells moves really well and uses a superkick? HE'S THE NEXT SHAW MICHAELS! He has bleach blonde hair and struts? Make Flair his manager, they're obviously the same guy! Uses the fame-asser, blonde hair and is currently under achieving? Clearly he's Billy Gunn. Enough is enough with these dumb comparisons. Dolph Ziggler is a skilled amateur wrestler that has transitioned excellently into the pro world. He has an excellent work ethic and makes matches exciting.

Let Dolph be Dolph.

 

[Antichrist]

Dolph Ziggler is like Mr Perfect in 1989/1990. He's seen as a real threat to Hogan/Cena despite the size difference and the IWC love him. Mr Perfect was on a winning streak at the time, where as Dolph has had the MITB Briefcase for 7 months rather than he's been undefeated for the same amount of time. HBK became an icon when he formed "two dudes with attitude", the wwe is not like it was in 1996. HBK was hated, ziggler gets cheers. Ziggler has a better technique than hbk, but Ziggler does not have any signature or finishing moves. When HBK Superkicked Bret Hart outside the ring at Survivor Series 1992, that was the moment he became a legend. That was the first time i marked out for him. Ziggler will probably never get over like HBK because Shawn asked Vince "what do i have to do to impress you?" where as Ziggler wants to do things his own way. Ziggler is not HBK, he is Mr Perfect. He doesn't have HBK's charisma. He's probably had several Wrestlemania Ten ladder matches by now, Ziggler is a spot monkey, he relies on getting bashed and selling the pain, he's like Spike Dudley, he doesn't have Mick Foleys move set.

 

[SacredMesa]

While I like his article and comparison I really think Dolph isn't Mr. Perfect or HBK, Dolph is Dolph and AJ isn't Sherry she's AJ and the relationship the two of them have played out so far really has spoken to both their individuality as characters but also in their ability to work together to make it work. Be it Dolph's "ear muffs" comment toward AJ, which personally I couldn't help but laugh as I thought it was just a brilliant little extra he added to his promo, or it being how AJ pulls off the whole dreamy eyed adornment of Ziggler when he shows off, or her skipping around crazy girl act.

At one point I would of bought Ziggler as HBK/Mr Perfect and I would of bought the combination of Ziggler/AJ/Langston as a direct HBK "path to success" but at least for this first week of them being together they have seperated themselves from those and really made it their own. I hope it continues as such because so far to me this whole thing has been gold.

 

[Slowdude]

I really hate when people say "Ziggler is HBK", "Punk is Austin/Rock", "Daniel Bryan is Benoit" etc (using other comparisons for comparison). I get that people want to see their favourites of the past wrestling but stop trying to group people into the same identity as someone else. We should be expecting Dolph Ziggler to be the best Dolph Ziggler he can be, not to be the next HBK.

 

[ztwhite]

I find it interesting that in the past week, or so, the WWE hired Monty Sopp, aka Billy Gunn, Kip James, Mr. Ass, etc...

I'm a huge Dolph Ziggler fan, first and foremost. We even went to the same college (Kent State), although I was a few years ahead of him, and it really has no relation to the posting.

But as I watch the evolution of Nick Nemeth, he's starting to remind me more of Billy Gunn then HBK. Everyone keeps referencing that his Ziggler's path to greatness is going to mimic HBK's rise to stardom. But to me, he is eerily similar to Billy Gunn, at this point.

From his ring entrance to his use of "The Famouser" in the ring. He even sells all of his bumps in an extremely great fashion like Billy Gunn used to do. In the beginning, Ziggler's mic work was questionable and Billy Gunn was never very good on the mic either.

Ziggler even physically resembles Billy Gunn in a lot of ways. From his body build to his bleach blonde locks.

I'm quite certain Ziggler's going to blow the roof off of any success Billy Gunn ever had, and it's arguable whether Gunn was "great", but I can't help but see a little Mr. Ass in Ziggler each time he makes his way to the ring.

 

[TheYoungEra]

Similarities between Ziggler and HBK? I guess I never made the connections in my head. I tend not to put a whole lot of stock in Ziggler because I don't like him. I never have and I never will. My biggest reason is that he is the biggest wrestling rip-off in recent memory. There is absolutely nothing original about the guy. Now, I say that bearing in mind that most wrestlers carry elements of one another and that true originality is hard to come by these days. I mean, look at how often the Spear, the Superkick, and the Ankle Lock have gotten around the industry. So I understand when a wrestler here or there exhibits behavior and tendencies that are not entirely his/her own.

A good example is Jack Swagger. If Kurt Angle could have sued for likeness rights, I'm sure he would've - but Swagger brought something of his own to the table: power. Swagger's kind of a beast in the ring (kinda miss watching him doing his thing, not gonna lie), and while he wore the All-American Singlets and used the Ankle Lock, he was still his own guy in the grand scheme of things.

Ziggler, however, abuses the privilege. He hasn't got an original leg to stand on. For the most part, I always make sure I address him in these forums as "Bad Ass Billy Ziggler" at least once, and that's because for the most part, he's Billy Gunn with a few more wins under his belt and a blue briefcase that's about to start growing mold here in a little bit. From his hair, to his entrance, to most of his mannerisms, to his attire, to his moveset. Billy Gunn up one side and down the other. Even the super-selling is a Billy Gunn signature (HBK did it too, but so did Billy Gunn). Even their character select screen portraits in WWE 13 are just about the same.

The "Show-Off" gimmick is the Curt Hennig sprinkles on top of this rip-off flavored cupcake that I watch folks just eat up night after night. I admire his zeal in the ring and I'll even admit the guy can spit on a microphone with the best of 'em, but this character just can't be taken seriously. In the end, the company likes him a lot (and he does have his fans) and it will propel him to new heights in his career. Somewhere deep down in places he doesn't talk about at parties, there's a little dude in a green jumpsuit and pompoms - who went as "The Perfect Ass, Billy Hennig" for what has become an incredibly long Halloween - that is enjoying every second of the ride. All kidding aside, I know his character was a company decision and truly I respect all he has accomplished, and I say that without sarcasm - the guy is a former World Champion, after all, and he can put on a show. More power to 'em as he continues his marvelous ride...

...The thing is, though...he'll never be HBK. No one will. Not that it shouldn't or wouldn't happen...it's just that it can't happen. As someone else on here posted...let Dolph be Dolph.

 

[fenderjapan]

Dolph is one of the only WWE guys who sparks my interest at the moment. I don't really think a comparison to HBK is quite as accurate as some sort of hybrid of Mr. Perfect, Rick Rude, Billy Gunn.

He's fun as hell to watch.

 

[Down_Where?Down_Here.]

Since I first saw Ziggler, I always thought of a Billy Gunn / HBK hybrid. BG seems bigger than Ziggler, he's more HBK size, with similar features of Gunn. And his use of the FameASSer and the superkick, obviously stick out. He's basically the best of both guys, combined. Except his wrestling name, haha. I'm not a fan of the Dolph Ziggler name, or the Zig-Zag as finisher. A signature yea, but a finisher, not to me.

 

[Mebzone]

Um ive been saying Dolph was the best wrestler in the wwe for awhile now...I see the comparisons to HBK but dont agree with them and I dont see how he's anything like Billy Gunn besides the fact that they kinda look alike... He is Dolph and anybody that cant see that this guy is a future Hall of Famer doesnt know wrestling. He has it all. If he can remain healthy and continue to grown i think he can be a 6 or 7 time wwe champion. The guy doesnt have bad matches. Can you name a match he has been in thats been boring. He puts on fantastic matches with Cena and the only other guy I know that does that is Punk and we all know how good Punk is.