Does Ziggler need to improve his wrestling psychology?

[MartialHorror]

I don't really like Ziggler, although his matches are usually entertaining. I consider him to be bland as a character and personality, but I can't deny that he can move. But I've always felt that his psychology...sucked. He seemed to get better as WWE pushed him during survivor series. In fact, he started selling me as the new Daniel Bryan, but it's as if he has reverted to his old self.

During the last Smackdown, he tried to do that spot where he's mustering the strength from his fans in order to make the tag. But his spastic movements were so phony looking and actually made me laugh. It looked so hilarious. Also, he practically no sold the Big Show's choke slam. I'm fine with someone like Cena or Lesnar doing this, but with Ziggler...just...no. It was much better how in Survivor Series, he wasn't going down, but he seemed to be running on fumes. Watching him recover fast enough to Zig Zag Show just drew attention to how wrestling is fake and the choke slam doesn't hurt that much in real life (when professionals are doing it).

This was even worse during TLC, which is a shame because his match was easily the highlight of the show. It's awesome, intense and violent and suddenly Ziggler ruined it near the ending. He's outside of the ring, looking hurt, but crawling back in. But it's like his timing was off because out of nowhere, he recovers and runs back in. It's almost like...he was faking being hurt in the first place. It made Harper look bad because he was obviously moving slow so Ziggler can make his move. This is why I can't make any connection to Ziggler and I find myself wondering why I feel so alone in my belief that he's not good enough to be 'the guy'.

But he is over with the fans and that is what ultimately matters. Does Ziggler need to improve or are his fast paced, spot monkey-styled matches enough for you? Do you disagree with me on his wrestling psychology? Another thing that should be considered is that better psychology= less reliance on extensive bumps. Ziggler should never be the #1 guy simply because his work ethic looks dangerous, more to himself than anything.

 

[pepentorresHHH]

I disagree to a certain degree with you...

Yes, I agree Ziggler, like anyone and most of the roster currently, could get some help and become better with his in ring psychology. Problem is..... WWE hardly ever gives him a chance to practice. Ziggler for the last few years has supposed to be the guy who gives amazing matches that are very fast paced and has to sell like a champ when facing a midcard guy. When he is facing a main eventer he is the guy who ultimately loses.

Watch matches that take him out of his element and actually give him something new to do. Money in the bank 2013. The double turn with ADR is a great example of how Dolph can really excel when given something to do. He shines whenever he is playing the underdog that will give his heart out to win. You said yourself you saw it at Survivor Series. Ziggler running on fumes was trying to win to save his and other peoples jobs. 3-1 and he won and looked amazing at it. Even further id suggest his match with Ryder for the US Title at TLC 2011 or his match against Mysterio at Summerslam 2009 show that when Ziggler is given a chance he knocks it out of the park or even Cena at TLC 2012.

When was the last time Ziggler was given matches with spots like HHH get or Cena gets or even Bryan recently got? He just needs a chance and he will excel

 

[Soulblazed]

This is where having Ric Flair managing Ziggler would've worked wonders for him...Ziggler's promos would be better and his psychology would be better because of Flair's help. I like Ziggler's matches and his passion but obviously he needs better psychology to go along with the tremendous talent he already has. I see a Ziggler/Rollins feud at some point after Wrestlemania 31. With the way Ziggler's being pushed, it only seems inevitable that he'll be feuding with Rollins.

 

[Da Solo]

Really? Because I always thought the opposite. I like his spastic and jerky motions as the match progresses. It seems more realistic than catching a second wind that makes you look just as energized as when the match started. It would make more sense for a dude to just throw his appendages the way Ziggler does rather than hulk up like Hogan, Cena, etc.

I do agree that he can overdo it, though. The one thing I can't stand is when he kicks out of a pin and then slaps the mat to rally the crowd without immediately getting up or mustering offense afterwards. It's a ridiculous waste of energy and kind of takes away from my suspension of disbelief. He hasn't done it recently as far as I've seen but it is a constant when he works medium length matches.

 

[steve115657]

I am a huge Ziggler fan because the guy can put on one amazing match. I like his ring psychology for the most part. I don't have much issue with him punching the mat after a pin and wasting time because everybody wastes time in the ring. It's part of the showmanship. Nobody actually efficiently manages their energy in the ring that I can think of on the current roster and thats fine.

My main isissue with Ziggler is actually kind of the opposite of yours. I think he oversells. In any match that goes more than 8 minutes it's like he forgets how to use his legs. He spends half of the match tryin to stand up by holding the ropes. Like I said, I really like Dolph, but it's a running joke between my girlfriend and I that Ziggler is the legless man because he always forgets how to use them.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

The thing with him is that his "ring psychology" is all based around "stealing the show" which gives him that one trick pony vibe. Shawn, Ric Flair, Taker even "lesser" guys like Matt Hardy were always good at putting on an exciting match that stole the show, but that still allowed the fans to believe there was true danger, excitement and a compelling story being told. They started only to do this with him at Survivor Series, then regular as clockwork it's back to stealing the show with Harper.

Getting bent out of shape after a 2 count or overselling a bump should be part of the arsenal... Shawn had all kinds of tricks from skinning the cat to the nip up to tuning up the band and begging off, they were all part of the story... Zig often seems more pissed off the count wasn't made from his flashy move rather than it being genuine frustration/feeding the tension.

It's the part of his game that just doesn't work to that next level. Realistically, I can see a scenario where he literally hot potatoes the IC title another five times before Mania 32 so they can put him v Jericho in a "first to 10 IC Titles" match before he genuinely improves his psychology.

It's a shame, but the time to intervene was 3 years ago when he got the case when it should have been Barrett's... someone like Shawn or Flair should have been with him, even if it was only backstage. Right now he's HBK in 1994/95 still... when they want him to be Shawn of 1997/98... and he feels he's Shawn of 2002 level... he isn't.

 

[PeterSellersSTL]

he starts doing the theatrical spastic shit 2 minutes into every match and it doesn't stop until the match is over.

 

[87wcw87]

Only thing I don't like about ziggler is his 2 finishers fameasser and zig zag. I think he should use a superkick or his ddt

 

[Uncle Sam]

Absolutely, yes. Being self-important, I'll quote myself from the Ziggler versus Harper thread. Before that, to offset the self-importance, I'll quote the guy two posts above me:

he starts doing the theatrical spastic shit 2 minutes into every match and it doesn't stop until the match is over.

Too concise for you? Don't really like the word "spastic"? Good thing I already said the same thing over a number of paragraphs:

This is the match that finally cemented my dislike for Dolph Ziggler - and, fittingly, will help me explain why he's so bad.

You know how in bad indie wrestling, somebody will take, like, a powerbomb from the turnbuckle to the outside and then be back up, screaming and throwing roundhouse kicks within about thirty seconds? Ziggler doesn't do that. Ziggler does the opposite of that. Ziggler sells the shit out of the mundane.

Right at the start of the match last night: Luke Harper kicks Ziggler in the stomach and throws Ziggler at a small ladder, which Ziggler blocks entirely with his hands. Either Ziggler has deceptively awful cardio and was near exhaustion sixty seconds into the match or he hit his hands so hard that he had a stroke. Motherfucker can't stand up! His legs are rubber, his eyes are glazed over, he can hardly breathe, he's wriggling around like a worm in frying pan.

Hit Dolph Ziggler with a clothesline and he'll sell it like you just crushed his head with a hydraulic press. Powerbomb him off a ladder and, fair enough, he'll sell it like you just crushed his head with a hydraulic press. Dropkick? He's a salmon and you're the guy that just pulled him out of the water. Shoulder block? Likewise. Russian leg sweep? Call the police - he just got murdered. Ziggler sells everything like he's just been hit by a truck. In fact, he sells like a referee - the slightest bump and he's due to be stretchered out.

It makes everything lose its impact. What's more, when you have one competitor who's adamant to lie on the floor, fidgeting like he's running out of oxygen for the entire match, it ruins the pacing. It's also dumb as shit when he suddenly jumps to his feet, sprints in circles and starts hitting sequences of moves, which he does in every match. It doesn't make sense. It ruins the story.

Actually, it doesn't always ruin the story. Once, when wrestling Alberto Del Rio, Dolph had to play a man suffering from a potentially career-ending concussion who was possibly going to endure fatal brain damage by the end of the match. I totally bought that.

Add to that his insistence on claiming he always steals the show when he's had the best match on the card maybe once in his entire WWE career (versus Daniel Bryan at an absolute nothing pay-per-view in 2010) and he's pretty much unbearable. He's The Young Bucks without the self-awareness.