Do You Think A Mosque Should Be Built Near Ground Zero?

[Smooth Sexual Chocolate]

If it were actaully ON the site i could understand why people would be upset. I mean, they didn't build over Auschwitz so why should they be allowed to build on Ground Zero? To me personally, it would make no difference what building they plan to construct, if it's not something dedicated specifically to the memory of those that died, then it's spitting in the face of everyone who lost a loved one that day.

However, this isn't the case is it? It's not being built ON Ground Zero, it's being built 600ft away from the site. Now, 600ft isn't a particularly long distance, in fact it's probably only, what, a block and a half? (Not that i truly understand what a 'block' is, being British, but still...) And of course, it just so happens that this particular building they're planning on constructing, will be a place of worship for a religious faith, that was apparently the inspiration for the terrorist attack on that city in the first place.

Personally, if i ask Mr. Fancy Pants 'I've got a Degree in everything but common fuckin' sense' Rauf, if he really didn't expect this sort of retaliation to his proposal, and he said he didn't, i'd have to beat some sense back into him.

Why has he chosen this spot of all places anyway? In all of the United States, what has influenced him to suggest 'i think we should build it 2 blocks away from Ground Zero in New York' in the first place?

"Let's go to the place where they actually have a decent reason to not like our people and try to get them to accept us again, based on the principles of understanding and tolerance, when several thousand people were killed by members of our faith who decided not to practice what we preach......."

And this is a guy with a scientific degree people....

Anyway, i'm starting to ramble as i so often do in the Cigar Lounge.

Should it be allowed? Sure, why the fuck not, as long as you're prepared to have stuff thrown through the window maybe once every 2 hours and spend just about every little penny in your budget clearing up graffitti and repairing damage to the place, then crack on. Note, i'm not saying that i condone such behaviour, but that's what's going to happen. You know it, i know it, apparently the only person who doesn't know it, is Mr. Rauf.

This pretty much sums up my feeling on the situation, personally I could care less, it has no effect on me, I live on the opposite side of the country, and this mosque, built or not, will not hinder me in the slightest.

That being said, I completely understand the feeling of not wanting a mosque built two football fields away from ground zero, it also needs to be taken into account that the mindsets of the people closely affected by 9/11 probably have a slightly different mindset about the situation.

I also have a hard time believing that the mosque will not be a constant hot spot for racial tension; and why do these said Muslims have to build there mosque so close to ground zero? It kind of seems like "Hey, thanks Muslim extremists, thanks for clearing out all this open space, now we finally have room for that super mosque". It most certainly comes off as a hearty cock slap to the face, one that leaves a lingering mark on the face that you must confront everyday when you look in the mirror.

Just like the few Muslim extremists that caused 9/11, it will only take a couple of American extremists to bring down the mosque, and I'm sure there are plenty of them out there willing to make such a sacrifice, especially if they feel they are doing it for there country.

All in all, I could care less, though; I don't see a happy ending in this scenario.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

I need clarification on something here: is a mosque being built near Ground Zero, or is it being built on Ground Zero? A CNN (or maybe it was an MSNBC) report led me to believe that a mosque was being built on Ground Zero, which I think would be a tasteless thing to do. The Twin Towers were destroyed by Islamic fundamentalists, and their religion played no small part in their undertaking.

As twisted as this may sound to some, if Ground Zero was originally a Muslim holding (which it was not), then I could understand why a mosque was being built there, as this would be a symbol of reclamation. But, the 9/11 attacks served no other purpose than to destroy an American landmark and kill a few thousand people.

 

[Vega]

As you can see, those Muslims who flew those plans into the Twin Towers were in no way representative of Islam as it is for...oh, about 700 years. Maybe 800. Depends on when Islam was founded by the Prophet Muhammad. I wanna say 1300s, but I completely forgot.

Just for the protocol, Islam was founded around 600 A.D., the crusades began around 1.100. But I agree with the rest of your post.

It is completely irrelevant if a church, mosque, synagogue or a temple of Pastafarism is built there. It all has nothing to with 9/11. Islam is not equal to terrorism or fundamentalism, neither is christianity even though christians had inquisitions, crusades, burning of proclaimed witches, child molesting priests and so on. Every religion - or better, every ideology - has bad actions done in the name of it.

 

[kingconor]

People seem to enjoy creating controversy. especially in the media as this sells papers/gains tv viewers. Muslims have as much right to worship as anyone else in the so called land of the free. To prevent this mosque being built would send out a bad message as it would seem as if people were blaming all Muslims for what happened. Why should
US Muslims be punished for the acts of some fucking loonatics?

 

[Vanderhook]

I have no issue with this. It's a Mosque, not a shrine dedicated to honoring the men who caused 9/11.

I can understand where the families are coming from, totally. I don't agree with it though. Going through a tragedy is not a free pass to discriminate against a group of people. I know many people grieve different, and oftentimes people want someone or something to blame but that doesn't change the fact that it is wrong to discriminate.

 

[Xemmy]

Why in the world would it not be allowed there? The problem is racial stereotyping. I can't think of a single Muslim that I know either through them being famous or knowing them personally that condoned the New York attacks. The people that blew up the buildings were extremists and do not reflect what Islam is all about. I may not believe what Muslims believe and I think they are wrong about a lot in religion, but I refuse to believe that anything more than a tiny fragment would be pleased with what happened in New York. The problem is the backlash that comes with the idea of Muslims worshipping near there. I have no problem at all with it, but some and likely a lot of people will though. Most of those people would be in New York or have had loved ones die in the attacks. But no, I would have no problem with a mosque being near Ground Zero.

There is a huge difference between Race and Religion. Islam is not a race, so don't even compare them. Islam is the religion that was the catalyst for killing those people. And it does reflect what Islam is about. If you've ever read the Koran there are plenty of passages where it says "Kill the infidels". (Ex: Surah 9:5) In the Middle East people are killed on a daily basis for not being Muslim. 50 people died because of a cartoon of Muhammed....in Europe.

I understand there are non-funamentalist Muslims, but they don't stand up against their counterparts. I don't have much beef with them, but they are something of a mafia wife. When those idiots from Westboro got attention other Christians stood up and called them monsters. You never get that with Muslims.

As far as whether or not a mosque should be built, I do have a problem with it, but I wouldn't stop it. We have freedom of religion in this country, so they have every right to build that mosque there, but damn it's like rubbing salt into the wound isn't it?

 

[Ruthless-RKO]

Barack Obama has finally spoken about the plans... here is what he had to say..

We must all recognise and respect the sensitivities surrounding the development of lower Manhattan, Ground Zero is, indeed, hallowed ground. But let me be clear, as a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practise their religion as anyone else in this country.

That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community centre on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country, and will not be treated differently by their government, is essential to who we are.

He also finds it stupid that people are against this!

 

[Soapguy]

I'm really REALLY trying to figure out why people are against this. I read and re-read some of the responses in this thread that were anti and I'm still not getting it. How can ground zero and the surrounding area be sacred, but it be wrong to have a place of worship surrounding it? Is it suggesting that those who died during 9/11 were all Christian and have all Christian mourners? Because I highly doubt that's the case.

Can we really not separate the acts of extremists from the religion itself? Do we also need to stop Christian Churches from being built in the same general area every time some wacko decides to bomb an abortion clinic?

 

[kissfan85]

There's always going to be stereotyping now after 911 happened.
I admit I am one to profile and I wouldn't really be ok with a mosque Near ground zero.

Last yr my husband, my best friend and I were interviewing for jobs at the air port and out comes all these people that didn't know English and they were all wearing turbins and had long beards and they got hired too and we looked at each other like wow that's comforting

No matter how good you think you are stereotyping, profiling and racism will always be around. We have all at one times been victims or the ones doing it.

 

[JuviJuiceIsLoose]

I don't have a problem with this. The people who do have a problem with this obviously don't love this country like they claim to.

They claim to love the Constitution, but they're trying to prohibit people from participating in the freedom of religion.

They claim to love Capitalism and the Free Market, but they're trying to stop people who want to buy land. As long as they have the money and the check clears.

The place was a Burlington Coat Factory, so I wouldn't necessarily call it "Hallowed Grounds".

It's not even really a Mosque. It's more like a YMCA. There's gonna be Basketball Courts, a swimming pool, a horticulture center. Oh yeah, upstairs Muslims will have a place to pray.

I haven't been to many Mosques, but I doubt a lot of them have those features.

 

[Razor]

Alright, so where can we not build churches anymore?

I would really like to know. Christians have bombed abortion clinics, killed through the mistaken belief that God told them to kill the sinners, bombed the Oklahoma City Federal Building, and committed many other questionable acts.

Hell. Take a poll of all prisons in America right now. How many are going to claim Christianity as their religion? I bet you every gang banger in New York is Christian.

Should we not ban churches from any streets that have been wronged by a Christian?

No? Oh. You want me to understand that the actions of a few, misguided Christians do not represent the majority.

Oh. Okay. Then why can we not extend the same right to our Muslim American brothers?

Because a couple of jihadist radicals committed some terrorist attacks? I point you to the numerous other straight up murders and rapings committed every day by someone who claims to be Christian.

Please. And now, with the rumor floating around that the group behind building the mosque is considering pulling out of construction, people are only going to be inspired to show even more blatant Constitution stomping.

Sickening. This is America. Every citizen has the right to practice whatever religion they want, wherever they want. The Constitution can not be lauded as a document that is being crushed by the Federal Government while so many who make that claim turn around and quash the Freedom of Expression for a group of Muslims in New York.

 

[Xemmy]

I'm really REALLY trying to figure out why people are against this. I read and re-read some of the responses in this thread that were anti and I'm still not getting it. How can ground zero and the surrounding area be sacred, but it be wrong to have a place of worship surrounding it? Is it suggesting that those who died during 9/11 were all Christian and have all Christian mourners? Because I highly doubt that's the case.

Can we really not separate the acts of extremists from the religion itself? Do we also need to stop Christian Churches from being built in the same general area every time some wacko decides to bomb an abortion clinic?

Yeah, I don't mind that idea either, considering it should be a kick in the face to those victims as well. Should, but usually isn't, because people are generally stupid.

lol, Ofcourse if I had my way, no place of worship would exist. But I don't rule the world , and I enjoy religious freedom myself, in having freedom from it.

 

[FromTheSouth]

Alright, so where can we not build churches anymore?

This oughtta be fun. How about we start with Ground Zero. The Greek Orthodox church that was crumbled into ruins on 9/11 after a tower fell on it is not being rebuilt on it's original site. But, hey, let's screw the Christians and placate the Muslims. I mean, you and our President think alike on that one.

I would really like to know. Christians have bombed abortion clinics, killed through the mistaken belief that God told them to kill the sinners,

You are comparing apples to flux capacitors here. The people from these churches killed based on their own misguided interpretations of the Bible, not on the advice and council of their preacher. Furthermore, abortion clinic bombers are lone wolves, or they act in small groups.

The cleric in charge of the NYC Mosque is an America hating prelate who blamed us for 9/11 and is seeking funding for a sharia from terrorists. One or two bad Christians is not even close to comparable to the network of Muslim terrorists intent on killing us.

[/quote] bombed the Oklahoma City Federal Building, and committed many other questionable acts.[/QUOTE]

OK, and I would believe that any Christian church would have the decency to not build a church in a victim's family's backyard, but maybe that's just me. Furthermore, McVeigh didn't act out of godliness, he is a right wing extremist who acted out of revenge for America's hatred of survivalists and the like.

Hell. Take a poll of all prisons in America right now. How many are going to claim Christianity as their religion?

I don't know, but I bet it is less than or equal to the demographic that exists in mainstream society. We also have to ignore the high percentage that find Jesus once they get there.


I bet you every gang banger in New York is Christian.

Should we not ban churches from any streets that have been wronged by a Christian?

I love how you compare local events to national tragedies. They two are not even remotely comparable. The fallacy of your logic amuses me.

No? Oh. You want me to understand that the actions of a few, misguided Christians do not represent the majority.

Not at all. I want you to understand that the Muslim terrorists were directed at the request of prelates who fit the profile of the prelate in charge in NYC, while the Christians act alone. That is, unless you want us to examine the crusades and all the relevancy that they hold here.

Oh. Okay. Then why can we not extend the same right to our Muslim American brothers?

No one is telling them that they can't build a mosque, but don't you think common decency would guide them to build it elsewhere. They don't have to build it there. The fact that someone wants to build it there leads me to believe that he is happy about 9/11 and wants to rub it in. On the other hand, let them build it, and then surround it with gay bars, strip clubs, and pork processing plants. Actually, I like that idea. Since liberals want to offend the sensibilities of real Americans, let's offend the sensibilities of the terrorist training camp that someone wants to build on Ground Zero.

Because a couple of jihadist radicals committed some terrorist attacks? I point you to the numerous other straight up murders and rapings committed every day by someone who claims to be Christian.

Because those are in the name of Jesus? Please, make good arguments. You seem to be unable to separate Christians from Christianity.

Please. And now, with the rumor floating around that the group behind building the mosque is considering pulling out of construction, people are only going to be inspired to show even more blatant Constitution stomping.

No one is arguing their right to build a mosque. No one says they can't practice their religion. Can you give me a reason why the mosque has to be on that spot. This is an area with no discernible Muslim population. The mosque being built there serves no greater purpose than building a memorial to Emporer Hirohito at Pearl Harbor. Sure, the large Asian population has the right ti practice their Shinto emperor worship, but they understand that it is offensive to others.

Sickening. This is America. Every citizen has the right to practice whatever religion they want, wherever they want.

Good. I am now a Mayan and I want to sacrifice people....wait, I can't. So, no, not everyone has the right to practice any religion anywhere. That is another fallacy of logic that other idiots might not catch. The religion being practiced cannot be a hazard to the safety of others, and in this case, this mosque would be a hazard to the safety of the people inside the building. What if the evil Christians decide to fire bomb this mosque too? I wouldn't be too upset, as they'd be disrupting the teachings of America hating prelates, but some softer people might blame religion. The problem is, they'd be blaming the wrong religion.

The Constitution can not be lauded as a document that is being crushed by the Federal Government while so many who make that claim turn around and quash the Freedom of Expression for a group of Muslims in New York.

You should probably learn something about the Constitution before evoking it. The "free exercise thereof" does not refer to any place, any time. I can't hold a bar mitzvah in the middle of the highway, I can't sacrifice anything, and I can't bomb an abortion clinic. These could all be interpreted as the free exercise of religion, however public sensibility always outweighs.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Well, I'm a little torn on the question, to be honest, but that might be because of how you proposed it. You asked, "Should A Mosque Be Constructed So Close to Ground Zero" which in a sense reads as Should We Build (as opposed to should we not build), which doesn't carry the same answer, necessarily, as had you proposed it as "Should a Mosque be Allowed to be Built So Close to Ground Zero?" – see the difference?

As to whether it should be allowed, the answer is unequivocally yes. There's probably no one on this forum who hates religion—especially fundamentalist Islam—as much as I do, but even an anti-theist (not to be confused with atheist) as secular and vehement as I am understand that the articles of the Constitution which this country is founded on are of infinitely more value than the opinions of those it protects, which is why there is no debate here. Congress shall pass no law respecting an establishment of religion, folks – that means in essence that the government would be committing an egregious act were they to disallow the building of a Mosque based on the precepts that the religion it represents is wrong, despite the fact it may very well be.

As to whether or not it should actually be built? Well, a little harder to say, because the secularist in me says fuck off, but the rationalist in me says so long as they've paid for the right to do so the same way a Baby Gap or housing zone would have, there's no law that can say otherwise, so begrudgingly, yes.

 

[KnowYoRole]

Why are you bringing up Mayans and shit? That's completely different, Islam doesn't call for any sort of unfounded violence or killing and that people think it does is just testament to the fact that they are truly ignorant as to what Islam really teaches. So yes, this mosque should be allowed to be built SIX FUCKING BLOCKS AWAY from ground zero because there's just nothing wrong with it and it's completely legal.

 

[FromTheSouth]

Why are you bringing up Mayans and shit?

To show how freedom to exercise religion doesn't mean you can do whatever you want, whenever you want and claim religious freedom. Judging by this post though, you aren't smart enough to get that.

That's completely different, Islam doesn't call for any sort of unfounded violence

No, those 3,000 people weren't killed in a jihad. No one in that faith calls for a holy war. Of course not. I know that Islam is supposed to teach peace, but the fact that sharias continue to be built around the world doesn't exactly match the practice to the message. More and more Muslims are turning to the violent side of the religion. Entire sects are dedicated to destroying Israel. I'm going to go ahead and say that the biggest danger to the world is Islam because it leads people away from the teaching and towards the clerics who advocate jihad.

or killing and that people think it does is just testament to the fact that they are truly ignorant as to what Islam really teaches.

The practice and the teaching are two different things. This mosque is being built by an Al-Quaeda sympathizer. This has nothing to do with religious freedom and everything to do with national security.

So yes, this mosque should be allowed to be built SIX FUCKING BLOCKS AWAY from ground zero because there's just nothing wrong with it and it's completely legal.

How is completely legal? It's a terrorist training camp masquerading as a mosque. If a peaceful cleric who called for peace was building it, it wouldn't be a big deal, but the fact is that it is being built by a dangerous man.

Read the news, learn the constitution, and try to learn some grammar and sentence structure before you bring your garbage posts in here.

 

[KnowYoRole]

You are blowing shit out of proportion, my good sir. More and more muslims are becoming violent? Where's your proof of that? Oh, do you shape your view of muslims based on the minority, radical muslims? I am a muslim myself, don't try and teach me my own religion, because I know you haven't got the first clue on what Islam is. What, do you think I'm a bloodthirsty terrorist too?

It's not even a mosque, it's a muslim community center where everyone, muslim or non muslim is free to enter. It has basketball courts and a culinary arts school and has a place of worship.

The guy is an al-qaeda sympathizer? Cite your sources. What's the name of this "dangerous man"? What does he preach? Oh and by the way, I go to a mosque regularly, and I have never seen anyone discussing plans to blow shit up. Just face it, you know absolutely nothing about islam, so you shouldn't have a say in the matter, you ignorant fuck.

 

[FromTheSouth]

You are blowing shit out of proportion, my good sir. More and more muslims are becoming violent? Where's your proof of that?

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/news/337677,terrorist-training-feature.html

you can also look at

http://www.globalecurity.org

Oh, do you shape your view of muslims based on the minority, radical muslims?

I shape it based on the actions of the minority and the refusal of the majority to condemn the actions of this minority. The rest of them are complicit by ignorance.

I am a muslim myself, don't try and teach me my own religion, because I know you haven't got the first clue on what Islam is.

I'm not trying to teach you the principles or your religion. I'm trying to show how the practice of your religion has strayed from the principles. Please, tell me what principles inspire bin Laden to lead an organization such as Al-Quaeda. Unfortunately, your religion is so vague, that it's easy to twist into the garbage version of that is practiced world wide.

What, do you think I'm a bloodthirsty terrorist too?

Nope, just an idiot who can't read for context.

It's not even a mosque, it's a muslim community center where everyone, muslim or non muslim is free to enter.

And I bet every door will remain unlocked and open to the public at all times.

It has basketball courts and a culinary arts school and has a place of worship.

So it's not a mosque, it's a community center with a mosque? That's splitting hairs and does nothing to advance your weak arguments.

The guy is an al-qaeda sympathizer? Cite your sources.

60 Minutes interview with Ed Bradley. It came out of his own mouth.

What's the name of this "dangerous man"?

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf - Seattle Times

What does he preach?

He preaches that America is responsible for the 9/11 attacks, and that we deserved it. - 60 Minutes

Oh and by the way, I go to a mosque regularly, and I have never seen anyone discussing plans to blow shit up.

Of course not. You aren't viewed as trustworthy, smart, or important enough to be part of it.

In all seriousness, no one thinks all Muslims are terrorists, no one thinks that they don't have the right to build their mosque there. What I want to know is why it has to be there? Why can't you put it somewhere where there's a Muslim population? Why do you need to slap the victims of 9/11 in the face? Why do your people need to be constant antagonists? It just seems like American Muslims want to celebrate 9/11, especially since there hasn't been much condemnation.

Just face it, you know absolutely nothing about islam,

I know that it inspires more violence than other religions. I also know that the principles of the religion are not what is followed anymore. I also know that it was Islamists who flew planes into our buildings.

so you shouldn't have a say in the matter, you ignorant fuck.

So, by your logic, only Muslims should have a say? That's pure idiocy. You have proved nothing in your arguments. You ask me to cite sources, yet you cite none. You provide no arguments for why it is OK to build that facility near Ground Zero. All you do is what your clerics do - blame America for the fact that your people don't know how to act.

 

[Serious Mozzarella]

This oughtta be fun. How about we start with Ground Zero. The Greek Orthodox church that was crumbled into ruins on 9/11 after a tower fell on it is not being rebuilt on it's original site. But, hey, let's screw the Christians and placate the Muslims. I mean, you and our President think alike on that one.

Where did you hear that the President is keeping the church from being put up near Ground Zero? Honestly, citation needed.

You are comparing apples to flux capacitors here. The people from these churches killed based on their own misguided interpretations of the Bible, not on the advice and council of their preacher. Furthermore, abortion clinic bombers are lone wolves, or they act in small groups.

Okay? I don't see what the difference is here, seeing as a terrorist group doesn't encompass the entire religion, because, you know, it's a terrorist group. Just because they're more organized and larger and numbers than your typical abortion bombing club doesn't mean it's not just a terrorist group.

The cleric in charge of the NYC Mosque is an America hating prelate who blamed us for 9/11 and is seeking funding for a sharia from terrorists. One or two bad Christians is not even close to comparable to the network of Muslim terrorists intent on killing us.

Citation needed.

OK, and I would believe that any Christian church would have the decency to not build a church in a victim's family's backyard, but maybe that's just me. Furthermore, McVeigh didn't act out of godliness, he is a right wing extremist who acted out of revenge for America's hatred of survivalists and the like.

You're forgetting the fact that the people who are building the Muslim recreation center aren't the people who carried out 9/11.

I love how you compare local events to national tragedies. They two are not even remotely comparable. The fallacy of your logic amuses me.

The same way you compared terrorist groups to entire religions.

No one is telling them that they can't build a mosque, but don't you think common decency would guide them to build it elsewhere. They don't have to build it there. The fact that someone wants to build it there leads me to believe that he is happy about 9/11 and wants to rub it in. On the other hand, let them build it, and then surround it with gay bars, strip clubs, and pork processing plants. Actually, I like that idea. Since liberals want to offend the sensibilities of real Americans, let's offend the sensibilities of the terrorist training camp that someone wants to build on Ground Zero.

Just wondering, do you have a problem with Japanese recreation centers near Pearl Harbor, or churches in Hiroshima or Iraq? This is a serious question.

Because those are in the name of Jesus? Please, make good arguments. You seem to be unable to separate Christians from Christianity.

I understand that this is probably going to be the response to my question, but it doesn't matter. I mean, just because these guys are crazy Islamic fundamentalists doesn't mean that Islam is somehow claiming a victory over Christianity by building a recreation center near Ground Zero. My question still applies.

No one is arguing their right to build a mosque. No one says they can't practice their religion. Can you give me a reason why the mosque has to be on that spot. This is an area with no discernible Muslim population. The mosque being built there serves no greater purpose than building a memorial to Emporer Hirohito at Pearl Harbor. Sure, the large Asian population has the right ti practice their Shinto emperor worship, but they understand that it is offensive to others.

Because it's their land and no one has a right to tell them what to build and what not to build.

Good. I am now a Mayan and I want to sacrifice people....wait, I can't. So, no, not everyone has the right to practice any religion anywhere. That is another fallacy of logic that other idiots might not catch. The religion being practiced cannot be a hazard to the safety of others, and in this case, this mosque would be a hazard to the safety of the people inside the building. What if the evil Christians decide to fire bomb this mosque too? I wouldn't be too upset, as they'd be disrupting the teachings of America hating prelates, but some softer people might blame religion. The problem is, they'd be blaming the wrong religion.

Really, dude, the only "fallacy of logic" (you really don't know what that means) is you comparing building a Mosque to sacrifice. You seem to be targeting your hate against a religion because of what your fellow Christian MIGHT to to harm their building and people. Doesn't that seem dangerously sketchy to you?

You should probably learn something about the Constitution before evoking it. The "free exercise thereof" does not refer to any place, any time. I can't hold a bar mitzvah in the middle of the highway, I can't sacrifice anything, and I can't bomb an abortion clinic. These could all be interpreted as the free exercise of religion, however public sensibility always outweighs.

Except they're building a Mosque on their own land, not in the middle of a highway, and the Constitution applies here.

 

[FromTheSouth]

Where did you hear that the President is keeping the church from being put up near Ground Zero? Honestly, citation needed.

It's not the President. It's the same zoning commission that is compelled, in the interest of fairness, to deny the permit to the mosque.

Okay? I don't see what the difference is here, seeing as a terrorist group doesn't encompass the entire religion, because, you know, it's a terrorist group. Just because they're more organized and larger and numbers than your typical abortion bombing club doesn't mean it's not just a terrorist group.

The fact that that is your argument proves how out of touch you are. There are not preachers preaching hate, beyond Jermiah Wright. These groups are acting independently of the Christian Church whereas terrorists are acting on behalf of clerics of their religion. I am smart enough to separate the two groups. You are not smart enough to make a good argument.

Citation needed.

Fuck you. If you can't debate me, leave this section out. Furthermore, there are plenty of citiations in my second post. Do some reading before you try to be arrogant and fail.

You're forgetting the fact that the people who are building the Muslim recreation center aren't the people who carried out 9/11.

They're just people who condone the act. Same thing.

The same way you compared terrorist groups to entire religions.

All I said is that the practice of Islam is moving further and further away from the principles. You can see that in how enrollment in terror training camps is up.

Just wondering, do you have a problem with Japanese recreation centers near Pearl Harbor, or churches in Hiroshima or Iraq? This is a serious question.

Well, being that we aren't a nation with a national religion, this argument is pure and utter shit.

I understand that this is probably going to be the response to my question, but it doesn't matter. I mean, just because these guys are crazy Islamic fundamentalists doesn't mean that Islam is somehow claiming a victory over Christianity by building a recreation center near Ground Zero. My question still applies.

No, it does. Planting a bronze nuke on Hiroshima would be the same thing. Fortunately, Americans have sensibility while Muslims just want to antagonize.

Because it's their land and no one has a right to tell them what to build and what not to build.

Actually, moron, the city zoning committee does. Look at the fucking law before making some idealistic crap argument. Basically, that means don't post.

Really, dude, the only "fallacy of logic" (you really don't know what that means) is you comparing building a Mosque to sacrifice.

I used that as an example to show how you can't freely practice all religions in the US. You weren't smart enough to figure that out.

You seem to be targeting your hate against a religion because of what your fellow Christian MIGHT

My fellow Christian? I am a fucking Jew and that's pretty well known on here. But then again, you can't fucking read, so you're excused.

to to harm their building and people. Doesn't that seem dangerously sketchy to you?

All I said is that if they think we got what we deserve, they have no reason to bitch when they get what they deserve.

Except they're building a Mosque on their own land, not in the middle of a highway, and the Constitution applies here.

The Constitution does apply, especially the part about regulating property rights. Freedom of religion isn't the issue, public safety and zoning are.

 

[RockFan89]

Do the Muslims have the right to build the mosque/community center there? Of course, and the government has no right getting involved in the matter and anyone calling for the government to do so is wrong.

Is it in good taste? That's a fair question and you don't have to be islamaphobic to be opposed to it.

Remember right after Columbine, the NRA had one of its annual meetings like 10 days later in Denver. People were rightfully turned off because of how recent the event was. (Note: They did cancel all of the other surrounding events, but they couldn't move the "annual members' voting meeting -- that could not be cancelled because the state law governing nonprofits required that it be held" source: http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html) Now I know its been nearly 10 years since 9/11, but the physical proximity to ground zero is comparable to the proximity in time to Columbine.

On the other hand, lets be honest, if a mosque were to be built in most anywhere in this country, 20-30% of the local community would oppose it. Partly out of anti-Muslim sentiment, partly out of the fact that it makes people uncomfortable because Islam is a foreign religion.

Now, the local community board overwhelming supported the building of the mosque, so I see no reason for the rest of the country to get so upset. Yes 9/11 affected all of us, but the people who live/work in that area should have the most important say in the matter. It drives me crazy when people in California tell people in Alaska what to do with their environment, or when people in Illinois tell people in Arizona how to protect their citizens, and I don't see why people in the rest of the country should be telling this community what to do. Also there are already like a hundred mosques all over New York, including Manhattan, so adding one more really shouldn't bother people.

So personally, I'm kind of apathetic to the issue. Build one, don't build one, I'm not going to care either way.

Now on to another issue brought up in this thread that really drives me crazy. Stop comparing radical actions of a handful of Christians to the organized terrorism of Muslims. Abortion clinic bombings and other such acts are often carried out by extremely small groups of people or mentally unstable individuals. In Islam we have Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. All organized groups with thousands of supporters. These groups kill people without a second look. There is nothing near the level of any of these groups in Christianity today, or for the past century.

Also, Christianity is constantly bashed in the mainstream today with no violent responses, but if just one person dares to insult Islam, he/she is going to need private security for the rest of their life.

The reason why so many of you guys think that the extremist element in Islam is so small is because in Europe, and especially America, the Muslim population has been fairly moderate. In fact, I would say Muslims in the United States are the most integrated and peaceful in the world. But if you look to the middle east, the Sunnis fight with the Shias, the Jews fight with Muslims, in India the Muslims fight with the Hindus, in Africa the Muslims fight with Christians, and in parts of Europe, the secular culture is greatly clashing with those who want to institute parts of sharia law. It is a fact that Islam has been part of a lot of the violence and destruction in the world over the last 20 years. The murder of abortion doctor George Tiller is nothing compared to 9/11, the 7/7 bombing in London, the Mumbai bombings etc.

Yes, the Christians went through their own dark period with the crusades, but those days are so irrelevant to today. Islam is going through it's own dark age (although the history of violence in Islam stretches back a far way) and it is not bigoted to recognize that an especially large number of Muslims wish to cause death and destruction to those who would oppose them.

 

[Serious Mozzarella]

It's not the President. It's the same zoning commission that is compelled, in the interest of fairness, to deny the permit to the mosque.

So then why did you mention the President? He has nothing to do with this.

The fact that that is your argument proves how out of touch you are. There are not preachers preaching hate, beyond Jermiah Wright. These groups are acting independently of the Christian Church whereas terrorists are acting on behalf of clerics of their religion. I am smart enough to separate the two groups. You are not smart enough to make a good argument.

Haha, at least I'm making an argument. The hatred you're spewing comes from un-cited speculation and smear tactics from extremist Christians. I've only asked you twice to cite the shit you're saying, and you've resorted to, "I'm smart, you're not, therefore I'm right."

Fuck you. If you can't debate me, leave this section out. Furthermore, there are plenty of citiations in my second post. Do some reading before you try to be arrogant and fail.

Er, asking for a citation is a perfectly legitimate debate tactic. I don't know if you're simply making shit up to support the foundation of your argument, so I want to see some facts. You have nothing to prove that it's the entire Islam religion that is working to bring America down. If you can't back up your argument, don't bring it up.

They're just people who condone the act. Same thing.

Citation needed. Not that you'll find one, because it's not true.

All I said is that the practice of Islam is moving further and further away from the principles. You can see that in how enrollment in terror training camps is up.

You can say the same thing about ANY religion. What about that Christian group that held meetings in the middle of the woods a few months ago, gathering guns and shit for a religious militia? (Click

Can you use those guys as proof that Christianity is moving away from the principles. No, you can't, and it would be idiotic to think so. The same way it's idiotic to say that some Muslim Extremist group is proof that Islam as a religion is moving away from principles.

Well, being that we aren't a nation with a national religion, this argument is pure and utter shit.

The fact that a vast, VAST majority of our politicians as well as the same vast, vast majority of our population identify as Christian, my argument holds more water than any of your un-cited arguments.

No, it does. Planting a bronze nuke on Hiroshima would be the same thing. Fortunately, Americans have sensibility while Muslims just want to antagonize.

Er, no, a bronze nuke on Hiroshima is NOT the same thing as a Muslim recreation center NEAR ground zero. Building a bronze statue of an airplane destroying the towers might be the same thing, but a recreation center is not.

Actually, moron, the city zoning committee does. Look at the fucking law before making some idealistic crap argument. Basically, that means don't post.

Nice personal attacks. It's like you have some personal problem with me.

Actually, it was already green-lit (click). Basically, that means, A) you're ill-informed, and B) you don't have a right to tell me where I can and can not post.

I used that as an example to show how you can't freely practice all religions in the US. You weren't smart enough to figure that out.

What is with your "I'm smart, you're not, so I'm right," argument? It's like, funny watching you throw your little temper tantrum, almost forcing me to break the rules of this forum in order to point it out and even address it.

Anyway, it was a bad example. A stupid example. An example with someone of your self-described intelligence would never make, right? They are not doing anything unconstitutionally criminal, so using human sacrifice or fire-bombing abortion clinics (which isn't even part of practicing a religion, wtf is the matter with you?) as a comparison to building a Muslim recreation center was stupid. On your part. I know, it's almost unthinkable. You? Being stupid?

My fellow Christian? I am a fucking Jew and that's pretty well known on here. But then again, you can't fucking read, so you're excused.

Oh shit, I forgot. Everyone is supposed to know you, because you're so intelligent and famous 'round these parts. It doesn't take anything away from my point, which you missed. Seriously, my point went so far over your head, you failed to address it.

(Though you being Jewish does explain a lot)

All I said is that if they think we got what we deserve, they have no reason to bitch when they get what they deserve.

Actually, yes, they do. Because they're not doing anything criminal.

The Constitution does apply, especially the part about regulating property rights. Freedom of religion isn't the issue, public safety and zoning are.

And it's been approved, 9-0 You lose. End of story.

 

[FromTheSouth]

So then why did you mention the President? He has nothing to do with this.

Because he's a douche and I enjoy taking potshots at him.

Haha, at least I'm making an argument. The hatred you're spewing comes from un-cited speculation and smear tactics from extremist Christians. I've only asked you twice to cite the shit you're saying, and you've resorted to, "I'm smart, you're not, therefore I'm right."

I cited sources. Globalsecurity.org, The Seattle Times, 60 Minutes, etc. Read my second post. Plenty of citations. You're failure to realize that makes you a moron, not me.

Er, asking for a citation is a perfectly legitimate debate tactic. I don't know if you're simply making shit up to support the foundation of your argument, so I want to see some facts. You have nothing to prove that it's the entire Islam religion that is working to bring America down. If you can't back up your argument, don't bring it up.

See above. And, I will bash the entire religion because when 9/11 happened there was no condemnation from the Arab world. Not all of the religion are terrorists, but most of them are sympathizers.

Citation needed. Not that you'll find one, because it's not true.

60 Minutes, douche. Learn to read.

You can say the same thing about ANY religion. What about that Christian group that held meetings in the middle of the woods a few months ago, gathering guns and shit for a religious militia? (Click

What's your problem with them? It's awfully hypocritical of you to bash them for exercising their Constitutional rights while defending the rights of terrorist....sorry, Muslims.

Can you use those guys as proof that Christianity is moving away from the principles. No, you can't, and it would be idiotic to think so. The same way it's idiotic to say that some Muslim Extremist group is proof that Islam as a religion is moving away from principles.

In the 90's, when militia enrollment was up, sure you could. Now that terrorist enrollment is up, I can do the same. Do you see what I did there? I applied the same logic to both sides. You should try that. So, go ahead and defend the Greek Orthodox people who don't get their church rebuilt even though the Muslim....sorry, terrorists, destroyed it.

The fact that a vast, VAST majority of our politicians as well as the same vast, vast majority of our population identify as Christian, my argument holds more water than any of your un-cited arguments.

I cited them. You're just illiterate.

Er, no, a bronze nuke on Hiroshima is NOT the same thing as a Muslim recreation center NEAR ground zero. Building a bronze statue of an airplane destroying the towers might be the same thing, but a recreation center is not.

Sure it is. Sharias are where young Muslims learn how to fly planes into buildings. And checkers. They learn checkers too. But, like I said, fine build it. Just let me build a gay bar, a strip club, and a pork processing plants adjacent to it. It is purely tasteless to put a mosque there. If you don't understand that, then you are truly as classless as I think you are.

Nice personal attacks. It's like you have some personal problem with me.

Just that I think you're an idiot.

Actually, it was already green-lit (click). Basically, that means, A) you're ill-informed, and B) you don't have a right to tell me where I can and can not post.

And you don't have the right to tell me what I can tell you. Stop pitching a bitch fit and debate. All you're doing is critiquing my style because you can't argue my points.

What is with your "I'm smart, you're not, so I'm right," argument? It's like, funny watching you throw your little temper tantrum, almost forcing me to break the rules of this forum in order to point it out and even address it.

Hey look, it's you not debating the point again. This is why I think Zero is a moron. Both of you pitch a fit when you're outdebated.

Anyway, it was a bad example. A stupid example. An example with someone of your self-described intelligence would never make, right? They are not doing anything unconstitutionally criminal, so using human sacrifice or fire-bombing abortion clinics (which isn't even part of practicing a religion, wtf is the matter with you?) as a comparison to building a Muslim recreation center was stupid. On your part. I know, it's almost unthinkable. You? Being stupid?

The only difference is that flying planes into buildings is a part of the religion, as it was funded and organized by holy men and the Koran was used to justify it.

Oh shit, I forgot. Everyone is supposed to know you, because you're so intelligent and famous 'round these parts.

I think if you ask around, you'll find that that statement is the closest thing to correct that you've said.

It doesn't take anything away from my point, which you missed. Seriously, my point went so far over your head, you failed to address it.

But instead of explaining it, you just throw out another personal attack. Hey, isn't that what you keep attacking me for instead of debating me? Yeah! It is. Hypocrite. I wouldn't expect anything better from you. You seem like a typical liberal. Instead of addressing problems (see Obama, economy) you throw out some bullshit diversion (see Obama, healthcare.)

(Though you being Jewish does explain a lot)

All it explains is why it is likely I'll be able to fire you from your janitorial job some day.

Actually, yes, they do. Because they're not doing anything criminal.

No, they did that nine years ago. Rauf claimed we created bin Laden. He has been rationalizing the attacks ever since (60 Minutes). To assume that he is just another Muslim cleric is like assuming Hugo Chavez is just another South American leader. They are dangers to America. The fact that you can't understand that sickens me.

And it's been approved, 9-0 You lose. End of story.

Where the fuck are your citations? You forget to mention that it's going to the courts.

You also fail to mention that Rauf denies that Hamas is a terrorist organization. You don't have to fire the bomb to be or support terrorists. You just have to provide the defensive rhetoric.

 

[Serious Mozzarella]

I cited sources. Globalsecurity.org, The Seattle Times, 60 Minutes, etc. Read my second post. Plenty of citations. You're failure to realize that makes you a moron, not me.

You haven't cited shit, captain. You cited the name of one man, and a link that literally has nothing to do with this conversation. Also, just name-dropping a major publication isn't a credible way of citing your information. That's like you asking me where I got my information, and me saying, "The news."

Give me something tangible, not "60 Minutes."

See above. And, I will bash the entire religion because when 9/11 happened there was no condemnation from the Arab world. Not all of the religion are terrorists, but most of them are sympathizers.

Er, okay, sure. I'm not going to even say that you don't have a right to say that most people are anything, because you do, but it doesn't make it any less stupid and mis-informed. No, most Muslims are not terrorist sympathizers. There is nothing you can say that would make that true.

60 Minutes, douche. Learn to read.

Show me where in 60 Minutes that says all Muslims condone terrorism.

What's your problem with them? It's awfully hypocritical of you to bash them for exercising their Constitutional rights while defending the rights of terrorist....sorry, Muslims.

Er, did you not already know what their issue was with their criminal investigation? They were planning on killing a bunch of cops. Sorry, there's nothing in the Constitution that says it's cool to kill cops.

In the 90's, when militia enrollment was up, sure you could. Now that terrorist enrollment is up, I can do the same. Do you see what I did there? I applied the same logic to both sides. You should try that. So, go ahead and defend the Greek Orthodox people who don't get their church rebuilt even though the Muslim....sorry, terrorists, destroyed it.

Yeah, I showed you how that argument was idiotic and holds no water, so no, you can't really use that logic. I mean, this isn't rocket science here. It makes no sense to deny someone Constitutional rights because of something some extremists who happen to be of the same religion (which also happens to be the second largest religion in the world) committed some crime.

I'm beginning to think you're just a racist.

I cited them. You're just illiterate.

Cool responding to my point, bro.

Sure it is. Sharias are where young Muslims learn how to fly planes into buildings. And checkers. They learn checkers too. But, like I said, fine build it. Just let me build a gay bar, a strip club, and a pork processing plants adjacent to it. It is purely tasteless to put a mosque there. If you don't understand that, then you are truly as classless as I think you are.

Firstly, I never opposed putting a gay bar or any of that shit you mentioned near the MUSLIM RECREATION CENTER (is it really hard to grasp the fact that it's not a Mosque?). If they are approved by the city's commission to open a gay bar right next to it, then that's fine too. That being said, no one has a right to deny them their ability to put a Mosque wherever the fuck they want, despite whatever personal issues you seem to have with it.

Don't like the Mosque? Don't go there.

And you don't have the right to tell me what I can tell you. Stop pitching a bitch fit and debate. All you're doing is critiquing my style because you can't argue my points.

Pitching a fit for telling you you're pitching a fit? What are you, 5?

Hey look, it's you not debating the point again. This is why I think Zero is a moron. Both of you pitch a fit when you're outdebated.

I individually debated every single one of your points.

The only difference is that flying planes into buildings is a part of the religion, as it was funded and organized by holy men and the Koran was used to justify it.

Yeah, the Koran has stories of fucking airplanes flying into buildings.

I think if you ask around, you'll find that that statement is the closest thing to correct that you've said.

Except it's not. You're not showing any kind of intelligence, just racism and intolerance. Also, way to miss the point. I was trying to say that I couldn't give a shit how popular you are around here, or how intelligent other people think you are. It doesn't matter to me in the slightest bit, and your popularity isn't going to change my opinion. Especially if you're just some random racist on the internet bitching about shit that's not going to affect you in the slightest bit.

But instead of explaining it, you just throw out another personal attack. Hey, isn't that what you keep attacking me for instead of debating me? Yeah! It is. Hypocrite. I wouldn't expect anything better from you. You seem like a typical liberal. Instead of addressing problems (see Obama, economy) you throw out some bullshit diversion (see Obama, healthcare.)

Again, I've debated every single point you've made. You're the one with the personal attacks (MORON, DOUCHE, IDIOT, TYPICAL LIBERAL). I haven't called you one single name in this argument. You're deluded. (That's number 1.) I insulted you in the cage, but leave that shit in there.

That being said, who the fuck said anything about Obama, the economy, or health care? I hope you don't edit this shit, because this is proof that you've lost this argument. You have nothing more to bring up except for shit that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Health care? Give me a break.

All it explains is why it is likely I'll be able to fire you from your janitorial job some day.

I'm working on a dual in Astronomy and Aerospace Engineering. Cool assumptions, bro.

No, they did that nine years ago. Rauf claimed we created bin Laden. He has been rationalizing the attacks ever since (60 Minutes). To assume that he is just another Muslim cleric is like assuming Hugo Chavez is just another South American leader. They are dangers to America. The fact that you can't understand that sickens me.

Oh shit, you were able to point out one Muslim extremist in the world! THAT MEANS ALL MUSLIMS ARE EXTREMISTS THAT WANT TO KILL ME. Get real, dude.

Where the fuck are your citations? You forget to mention that it's going to the courts.

You also fail to mention that Rauf denies that Hamas is a terrorist organization. You don't have to fire the bomb to be or support terrorists. You just have to provide the defensive rhetoric.

You know, generally, when I have the word "click" in parenthesis, it means I've provided a link. But since that was so difficult for you to grasp, I'll put the entire link here:

http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-gaggle/2010/08/03/mosque-near-ground-zero-gets-green-light.html

The courts are going to decide that it's unconstitutional to prevent the recreation center from being built due to religious discrimination.

You mad?

 

[Spaceman Spif]

My argument is going to be simple and short.

It should be quite obvious that is the majority of the people is this country do not want a mosque built near ground zero, then out of respect for the majority of this country, you don't do it. I could care less if it is a mosque, a monastery, a church, a brothel or whatever, if we as a majority don't want it there, don't build it there, build it somewhere else. This piece of shit who wants to build it, is only doing it so close to ground zero as a slap in the face to this country. Most other decent people would have stopped fighting about it and found another place to build. It's not about religious freedom, it's about pouring salt in the wound.