Do You Believe: Is CM Punk a Lying Cheater?

[Tenta]

Look, guys, we all have a tendency of idolizing our favorite wrestlers. Be it by making them out to be Gods, or not holding them to the same moral standards that we hold our neighbors to, we have some sense of hero idolization. Hulkamania at the time seemed like all the rage, but now as we're older, and we've grown more wise to the business, we see the flaws. One begins to realize how we didn't get the steroids and cocaine that in Hulk's system at the time... Ahem, allegedly, as we look on in hindsight.

Well, now I want to plan a new series of threads, in which I give a story that's said to have happened backstage, and we try to decipher whether it's fact or fiction. Granted, 90% of the wrestling world is nothing more than bull shit and con artists, but this thread looks to pull the veil back on wrestler's oersonal lives, and show that they can, in fact, only human. All of these urban myths can be found in the Prison Section of our forums, so who knows? Maybe this will drive up numbers in the Prison while we're at it, too.

Anyway, let's begin with out first subject, CM Punk. Ironically enough, the man plays a messiah role on television, albeit a heel one, which makes the shadenfreude oh that much better. The man claims to be a pure man on screen... And apparently the ladies love it, because he pulls more wrestling tail than I've ever heard. The names go from Mickie to Tracy Brooks to Lita, and so forth. To say the man is, well, a man ****e, is quite the understatement. Unfortunately, that means at some points, some hearts were broken. Cue the Rumor!

C.M. Punk started banging Tracy Brooks in TNA but Lucy/Daffney didn't know this while she was in OVW during her WWE dev. deal. So when TNA P-P-Vs were over, he'd go over to OVW land and boink Lucy and then back to Brooks at ROH shows on the weekend. This lasted for a while... until Lucy got let go by WWE at which point she asked him about possibly going back to ROH. Realizing his sharade was about up, he told her that Gabe didn't have any room and then broke up with her. Devastated beyond belief by the shock of losing her WWE deal, getting dumped by her boyfriend and then learning about Tracy Brooks, then getting blocked in ROH, she quit the business.

The question is simple; do you believe it?

Personally, I don't see any reason why this can't be true. CM Punk's dalliances are quite notable indeed, and there are many sources to the fact that Tracy and Punk, at some point, were an item. Compunded by Daffney's leaving of the business, and quite frankly, this wouldn't shock me. It's been said by others that Punk has a habit of being an asshole, so quite frankly, this just seems like another asshole move on his part. Meaning, of course, being straight edge can still make you a douchenozzle.

My vote? It goes for yes. But how about you? Do you believe the Big Urban Myth?

 

[Ferbian]

It could very well be true. It is after all a rumor. There's been nowhere that it was verified.

However if we're to fully believe that CM Punk is a 100% follower of the Straight Edge ways. Then I do not believe the rumors. Straight Edge is against promiscuous sex from my understanding. Besides CM Punk could get quite a handful of girls. Hell I mean look at the list. Tracy, Lita and Maria Kanellis. Those 3 are definitely something worth bragging about.

So I would definitely say it could easily lean both ways. CM Punk could've easily been cheating on Tracy Brooks. But he could just as well have been a loyal man.

 

[Serious Jones]

However if we're to fully believe that CM Punk is a 100% follower of the Straight Edge ways. Then I do not believe the rumors. Straight Edge is against promiscuous sex from my understanding.

From my experience it seems like promiscuous sex is only forbidden in certain versions of straight-edge. The core is always no smoking, drugs, or alcohol, but I've heard of variations from celibacy to veganism. So Punk may just follow the core values. I mean, I wouldn't fault him for it, with some of his exes.

Like the OP said, this is the kind of report that should be taken with a grain of salt, so I really don't think it's 100% valid. I feel like there should be a firsthand account of it somewhere.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

As there are various different Christian denominations that have their own various rules and dogmas that other denominations don't follow, not all those that follow the Straight Edge philosophy are against promiscuous sex.

I know a few militant followers of Straight Edge. They're very much against the use of drugs or alcohol but don't see the slithest problem when it comes to being promiscuous as long as you're careful. They've told me in the past that they feel being expected to be with only one person is selfishness. So, according to their version of Straight Edge, they don't mind if you screw anything with two legs that'll have you so long as you don't pop pills and throw back a few while it happens.

As with most philosophies, you can come up with a loophole to fit just about any type of situation you can name. Most philosophical beliefs are little more than your own personal bullshit that other people subscribe to anyhow. It might not be the most endearing or flattering way to put it but, for all intents and purposes, it's accurate.

Could I believe CM Punk screwing around? It's entirely possible. Punk has been involved with another of beautiful women in the wrestling industry and I'm sure that he probably has female fans throwing themselves at him all the time. That can be extremely powerful temptation for just about anyone. I'm sure that there are times Punk has women offering him the goods that probably wouldn't spit in his face if it were on fire if he wasn't one of the biggest stars in pro wrestling today and had a hefty bank account.

 

[jmyers19]

There was actually a Punk interview I watched yesterday I believe it was where, instead of saying tobacco he mentioned promiscous sex. And from what I heard he and Lita never dated, Matt Hardy said the two were just friends. As far as Straightedge goes, I doubt he would go as far as to have it tattooed on his stomach and not follow it but as someone mentioned he may just follow the main core of being considered Straightedge-no alcohol, no drugs, no tobacco, yet still dated some female wrestlers. But I don't know enough of the story to really give an answer for it, alls I know is he dated Maria and Tracy Brooks but don't know about any rumours that have circulate in the past.

 

[El Rev sXe]

I'm actually straight edge, so I don't drink, I don't smoke I don't use any kind of drugs. however when it comes down to sex...lol I do it, so what? I mean after all, being sXe is not like being in a religion..it is YOUR CHOICE. there is alot of discussion on that subject cause some sXe are just christians or catholics with another name. like I said, it's a choice that you make. I don't drink, don't smoke, don't use drugs but I believe in casual sex. so being that said, I think that CM Punk does cheat on women and has casual sex. however, as the OP says, it's only a rumour but I don't see why it can't be true.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

It's a rumour, so unless Punk comes out and confesses, it never will be a fact.
However, Punk does have a thing for the beautiful women of wrestling ( who wouldn't!!)
He did date Maria, did date Brooks ( I think she admitted that in an interview somewhere) and I even heard he had a fling with Kelly Kelly.

I don't think there is anything wrong with going around with beautiful women while not drinking, not smoking, not shooting up and being called StraighEdge.

and Fozzyrocks2009, I doubt very much that Punk would break his (forget real) kayfabe character by just going into a bar and drinking in plain view, that would be the equivalent of the Undertaker going to a magician's show in street clothes

 

[jmt225]

Meh, I don't doubt that it's true, but it still doesn't make me respect CM Punk any less.

I mean, seriously... 95% of wrestlers throughout the history of the business cheated on their wives/girlfriends. Literally, that much. It just happens in this business. Even Bret Hart, the poster boy of the "good guy" at one point in time, repeatedly cheated on his wife. Does that make him any less of a role model? No, not in my eyes.

As far as the Straight Edge rules about promiscuous sex, look... Straight Edge is all about living the kind of lifestyle you want. There are no set rules for SxE other than don't drink alcohol and don't do drugs. That's it. Some people throw promiscuous sex in it, some don't. Some even throw eating meat, or drinking caffeine, or even getting tattoos as stuff you should NOT do if you claim Straight Edge... but that doesn't mean every person who's Straight Edge has to follow it. Just stick with the general rule of don't do drugs and drink alcohol, and you're staying true to the meaning of the saying. Period.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Meh, I don't doubt that it's true, but it still doesn't make me respect CM Punk any less.

I mean, seriously... 95% of wrestlers throughout the history of the business cheated on their wives/girlfriends. Literally, that much. It just happens in this business. Even Bret Hart, the poster boy of the "good guy" at one point in time, repeatedly cheated on his wife. Does that make him any less of a role model? No, not in my eyes.

As far as the Straight Edge rules about promiscuous sex, look... Straight Edge is all about living the kind of lifestyle you want. There are no set rules for SxE other than don't drink alcohol and don't do drugs. That's it. Some people throw promiscuous sex in it, some don't. Some even throw eating meat, or drinking caffeine, or even getting tattoos as stuff you should NOT do if you claim Straight Edge... but that doesn't mean every person who's Straight Edge has to follow it. Just stick with the general rule of don't do drugs and drink alcohol, and you're staying true to the meaning of the sayings. Period.

THANK YOU!!
All these Bret Hart marks who preach about how pious he was and how HBK was an utter dickhole (which he was) made me sick.
Look I have always been a fan of Bret and a huge mark for HBK but fact is fact, he cheated on his wife with Sunny.PERIOD.

Look they have all the luxuries of rockstars:
Fans, Women, Clubs, Great paychecks, Sweet rides
So you can see the temptations they have and a lot of them take it up.
CM Punk might as well play pokey pokey with Linda McMahon and he'd still be my favorite.

SxE, for me is about No Alcohol, No Drugs, No Smoke , that's it!
Others are open to their own interpretation.

 

[LigerBomb]

On the topic of CM Punk:
I have no reason to not see it as a possible occurrence as he's been known to be a bit of a dick head. That said, I've no idea if it's true, and am open either way to the speculation. As already said, since I can prove it either way I don't let it affect my opinions of him or his work.

On Promiscuous Sex in SxE:
As a life long edger, I align myself with the golden rule of not being a mindless slave to any addiction/distraction/peer-pressure. With that in mind, I include being a poor slob lead around by his dick as an example of the above. A lot of the original straight edge songs mention the "Don't Fuck" part but I guess people like to follow buffet-style Straight Edge, taking only the parts they like and leaving what they don't. And that's perfectly fine but let's not pretend like the "no casual sex" aspect wasn't part of the origins just as much as the "no substance abuse" parts. The stuff added years later? Vegetarianism, Hardline and the like? Filler that sometimes confuses and obscures the root message. But again, no-harm-no-foul, and to each his own as long as it doesn't hurt someone else I suppose.

 

[Soapguy]

So. . .first I'm going to answer the question at hand. A rumor is a rumor is a rumor is a rumor. Could he have been dating both of them at the same time? Possibly? Would it make me think less of him? A little bit.

Meh, I don't doubt that it's true, but it still doesn't make me respect CM Punk any less.

I mean, seriously... 95% of wrestlers throughout the history of the business cheated on their wives/girlfriends. Literally, that much. It just happens in this business. Even Bret Hart, the poster boy of the "good guy" at one point in time, repeatedly cheated on his wife. Does that make him any less of a role model? No, not in my eyes.

As far as the Straight Edge rules about promiscuous sex, look... Straight Edge is all about living the kind of lifestyle you want. There are no set rules for SxE other than don't drink alcohol and don't do drugs. That's it. Some people throw promiscuous sex in it, some don't. Some even throw eating meat, or drinking caffeine, or even getting tattoos as stuff you should NOT do if you claim Straight Edge... but that doesn't mean every person who's Straight Edge has to follow it. Just stick with the general rule of don't do drugs and drink alcohol, and you're staying true to the meaning of the saying. Period.

So, people are allowed to make mistakes. That's what makes us people, but there has to be a certain amount of accountability for these mistakes and if the rumor is true, the fact that everyone else is doing is the most piss poor excuse I've ever heard in my life. Remember that bridge example that almost everyone's parents have used at one point in time or another? I went to a school were a certain kid was singled out everyday and it was "normal" for people to pick on him. So let's ignore the fact that the kid committed suicide because the students were perfectly justified in chastising and beating him because it was what everyone else was doing. I'm going to call that a logic fail, sir.

If you're going to cheat on your wife/girlfriend (husband/boyfriend) then why not break up with/divorce her (him)? Especially if you're going to do it continuously. So yeah, people who continuously cheat get knocked down a peg or two on my respect meter because a) there's a pretty easy solution to the problem. (end the relationship). and b) people get hurt from it. Some might say that other factors, such as children or family, might have an impact on staying in a relationship while giving in to temptations. Well, if those factors of THAT important, then they should be helping one refrain from cheating. I think that's kind of simple.

In conclusion, I'm not saying that I'd judge CM Punk harshly, because I'm not one to do such a thing ,BUT. . .we can't really throw accountability out of the window for the potential pain that may or may not've been caused to both Tracy Brooks and Daffney. It was a douche of a thing to do (if he did it).

 

[jmt225]

On Promiscuous Sex in SxE:
As a life long edger, I align myself with the golden rule of not being a mindless slave to any addiction/distraction/peer-pressure. With that in mind, I include being a poor slob lead around by his dick as an example of the above. A lot of the original straight edge songs mention the "Don't Fuck" part but I guess people like to follow buffet-style Straight Edge, taking only the parts they like and leaving what they don't. And that's perfectly fine but let's not pretend like the "no casual sex" aspect wasn't part of the origins just as much as the "no substance abuse" parts. The stuff added years later? Vegetarianism, Hardline and the like? Filler that sometimes confuses and obscures the root message. But again, no-harm-no-foul, and to each his own as long as it doesn't hurt someone else I suppose.

But see... when it comes to promiscuous sex... that term "promiscuous" can be interpreted in so many ways. Hell, some people think *********ion, fucking before marriage, and stuff like that should go into that category.

The fact of the matter is, there is not clear definition of promiscuity, which is why more than anything that this can be the ultimate exception to the general rules of the SxE lifestyle.

Besides, Minor Threat, who basically created Straight Edge, mentioned NOTHING about fucking in the original "Straight Edge" song. That came from LATER on, just like how people later on decided to throw shit like the stuff I mentioned earlier as apart of the SxE lifestyle.

So, people are allowed to make mistakes. That's what makes us people, but there has to be a certain amount of accountability for these mistakes and if the rumor is true, the fact that everyone else is doing is the most piss poor excuse I've ever heard in my life.

Dude, I totally get the point in your post, and to a certain extent I agree with you (though I still sympathize with pro wrestlers on this one since they're on the road so much); however, the thing is, man.... women in the business are basically glorified rats. That's the bottom line. Had Punk cheated on his high school sweetheart who remained loyal to him for all these years, then yeah... I would sort of snicker at him for fucking over somebody like that, but Punk just basically treated these broads as they deserved to be treated, which is as ring rats, because that's exactly what they are.

 

[Soapguy]

Dude, I totally get the point in your post, and to a certain extent I agree with you (though I still sympathize with pro wrestlers on this one since they're on the road so much); however, the thing is, man.... women in the business are basically glorified rats. That's the bottom line. Had Punk cheated on his high school sweetheart who remained loyal to him for all these years, then yeah... I would sort of snicker at him for fucking over somebody like that, but Punk just basically treated these broads as they deserved to be treated, which is as ring rats, because that's exactly what they are.

I literally read this three times just to make sure I wasn't seeing things. Then I went to your profile. I hoped. . HOPED that you were 15 or 16 so there was an off chance that you'd grow out of it. Sadly, you're older than I am. *breathes*

Did you seriously just say that? Seriously?! Seriously?! And I roll my eyes whenever I hear someone start in on the "all men are dogs" rhetoric and then I come into contact with people like you saying stuff like that making all of us look like complete and total d-bags.

First, let's cut the b.s. You're not in the wrestling business NOR do you know either of these women personally. So I find it kinda strange that you've given yourself the "authority" to actually judge female wrestlers on a personal level like that, let alone make a blanket statement about their level of individual worth and how they "deserve" to be treated is all kinds of sickening. Honestly, it also makes you look like a bit of a tool.

Second, just because you're on the road doesn't mean you have to think with your penis. That's a really piss poor excuse. I'm in a long distance relationship and I WORK at a strip club (in addition to college classes/parties where there's more opportunity). I don't cheat, it's really not that difficult. If you want to sleep around leave the relationship. I don't really think there's anyway to dispute that.

So yeah. . .I don't think CM Punk did the aforementioned deed, but if he did it probably wasn't justifiable. Which happens, but not holding him accountable for his actions because everyone does it or because female wrestlers are "ring rats" is complete and total b.s.

 

[jmt225]

I literally read this three times just to make sure I wasn't seeing things. Then I went to your profile. I hoped. . HOPED that you were 15 or 16 so there was an off chance that you'd grow out of it. Sadly, you're older than I am. *breathes*

Yep, 24 and growing more knowledgable each day.

And you know what's odd? You say I need to grow up, but yet... I bet some of your favorite wrestlers, much older than I am, share the same opinion as I do on this.

Did you seriously just say that? Seriously?! Seriously?! And I roll my eyes whenever I hear someone start in on the "all men are dogs" rhetoric and then I come into contact with people like you saying stuff like that making all of us look like complete and total d-bags.

Yes, I did say it. And I'll even admit that saying ALL of them are like that was an overstatement, but I do firmly believe that the majority of them are.

First, let's cut the b.s. You're not in the wrestling business NOR do you know either of these women personally.

Did I say I was, or that I did? No, so this point is completely irrelevant and has nothing to do with the discussion. Besides, I highly doubt you're in the business yourself and know any of the women personally... so I have every right to bash them as much as you do to defend them.

So I find it kinda strange that you've given yourself the "authority" to actually judge female wrestlers on a personal level like that, let alone make a blanket statement about their level of individual worth and how they "deserve" to be treated is all kinds of sickening.

Dude, you're judging them yourself, so why can't I have the same right? Just because my opinion is negative (even if it's backed up by numerous example of FACTS), that doesn't mean it's more judgmental than what you're saying.

The fact is, man, why shouldn't I believe most women wrestlers aren't glorified rats? I've watched plenty of shoot interviews and that's how most wrestlers look at them. Hell, it's basically a known fact that Mickie James, Kelly, Melina, Maria, Ashley, etc. have slept with a lot of wrestlers on the WWE roster. And I've heard stories about both Daffney and Tracey Brooks... they're not these sweet little angels. I actually like Daffney, too, but the fact is.... she's been around. And all you have to do is take one look at Brooks and you'll know right away she's a fucking disgusting, worthless skank.

Honestly, it also makes you look like a bit of a tool.

Honestly, you sound like a bit of a crybaby by whining like this over something so silly.

Second, just because you're on the road doesn't mean you have to think with your penis. That's a really piss poor excuse. I'm in a long distance relationship and I WORK at a strip club (in addition to college classes/parties where there's more opportunity). I don't cheat, it's really not that difficult. If you want to sleep around leave the relationship. I don't really think there's anyway to dispute that.

Well that's good for you dude if you're telling the truth, but what in the World gives you this holier than thou attitude? Just because you're able to not cheat does not mean you have the right to look down on those who do.

You can compare your situation all you want, but you still don't come anywhere close to walking in the same shoes as professional wrestlers. Until you're able to do that, you cannot look down at professional wrestlers who've cheated on their girlfriends.

So yeah. . .I don't think CM Punk did the aforementioned deed, but if he did it probably wasn't justifiable. Which happens, but not holding him accountable for his actions because everyone does it or because female wrestlers are "ring rats" is complete and total b.s.

Maybe it's not "justifiable," but my point is that is doesn't make him a bad human being if he did, because at the end of the day.. it's no big deal. He didn't ruin any of these chick's lives. Maybe they cried for a day or two, but before they knew it, they were on to the next wrestler they could leech off of.

 

[Soapguy]

Yep, 24 and growing more knowledgable each day.

And you know what's odd? You say I need to grow up, but yet... I bet some of your favorite wrestlers, much older than I am, share the same opinion as I do on this.

Being the popular opinion in no way makes it the right opinion, but carry on.

Yes, I did say it. And I'll even admit that saying ALL of them are like that was an overstatement, but I do firmly believe that the majority of them are.

Did I say I was, or that I did? No, so this point is completely irrelevant and has nothing to do with the discussion. Besides, I highly doubt you're in the business yourself and know any of the women personally... so I have every right to bash them as much as you do to defend them.

No, not really. You're saying, "this group of women are ****es". I'm saying, "Dude, you don't know this group of women to be judging them like that". Its not really the same thing.

Dude, you're judging them yourself, so why can't I have the same right? Just because my opinion is negative (even if it's backed up by numerous example of FACTS), that doesn't mean it's more judgmental than what you're saying.

I'm really not. You made blanket statement about a group of individuals, none of whom you know personally, that was an extremely negative and degrading one. Did you see me judge them in any negative or positive way? I just think taking it to the extreme that you've taken it to is a little caveman.

The fact is, man, why shouldn't I believe most women wrestlers aren't glorified rats? I've watched plenty of shoot interviews and that's how most wrestlers look at them. Hell, it's basically a known fact that Mickie James, Kelly, Melina, Maria, Ashley, etc. have slept with a lot of wrestlers on the WWE roster. And I've heard stories about both Daffney and Tracey Brooks... they're not these sweet little angels. I actually like Daffney, too, but the fact is.... she's been around. And all you have to do is take one look at Brooks and you'll know right away she's a fucking disgusting, worthless skank.

Rikishi, Jim Ross, Steve Austin, Molly Holly, Val Venis, Ken Kennedy, Ivory, Ric Flair, Maria, John Morrison, and Bob Holly have all had mixed things to say about the women who work in wrestling. That means when they were asked about specific women, they said specific things. Which would lead me to believe that you're "rat" to non-rat ratio really isn't any different than you'd find out there in the "real world". Which may or may not be true. Again, my problem is you're justifying treating an entire group of people like trash without knowing them. I don't think that's cool and have ALWAYS considered that an invitation to get worked up, no matter who the group of people are.

Also, you don't have "facts", you have rumors. We can honestly count the number of those stories that have come from the source on one hand. (by "from the source" I mean the women themselves. I think we both know from personal experience that "locker room talk" is normally 75% false.)

And if these women are as "disgusting" and "loose" as you say they are, then why not just sleep with them? Is it really necessary to get into relationships with THEM and then cheat on them? Even if these women are "rats" how does that justify treating them like trash? I'd really hate to be a member of a group of people that you consider lower than yourself.

Finally, even if these women are "rats". Are they really doing anything differently than "all of the men" that you claim to be sleeping around with everyone? I find it odd that these men are just men who are away from home and need someone to sleep with and these women are "ring rats".

Not to mention the fact, that many of those women work hard and train just like the men do. . . but, yeah. . .let's reduce them to the treatment of a rodent just because of their gender. . .that's perfectly acceptable.

Honestly, you sound like a bit of a crybaby by whining like this over something so silly.

I'll gladly take on the moniker of crybaby. Doesn't really bother me at all. I don't think prejudice is silly. I don't think double standards are silly. Maybe that makes me a crybaby. I happen to be damn proud of being a crybaby.

Well that's good for you dude if you're telling the truth, but what in the World gives you this holier than thou attitude? Just because you're able to not cheat does not mean you have the right to look down on those who do.

Did I say I was looking down on anyone? Did I not say that I WORK in a strip club? How many morally superior people would work where I work, let alone admit it to a group of people who wouldn't have known otherwise if I didn't tell them? I made it clear in my first post that I understand that mistakes happen, but I don't see any way to justify continuous cheating. Which doesn't mean that I'm going to look down on a person for doing so, but I will not make allowances for them. I think that's just as silly. I reckognize they simply made a mistake and I move on. I, however, will keep enjoying his in ring work and not really pay any attention to his personal life.

Maybe it's not "justifiable," but my point is that is doesn't make him a bad human being if he did, because at the end of the day.. it's no big deal. He didn't ruin any of these chick's lives. Maybe they cried for a day or two, but before they knew it, they were on to the next wrestler they could leech off of.

Again, I never said anything about it making him/them a bad person. I just don't think those actions are totally okay. I would address the prejudice and sexism in those closing lines again, but I don't want to beat a dead horse. You get my point and I get yours, we're just going to have to agree to disagree here.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

Of course, he's a heel. Why wouldn't he lie or cheat... or steal?

Seriously, I'm going to pass it off as a rumour as I have not heard of any concrete evidence to support this statement. Innocent until proven guilty, I guess. I may need to go talk to all those involved in the party but by the time I become reputable enough to get there they'd probably give me the old "that's over now." If Punk did do it, while that's not the right thing to do I can't really tell him what to do with his life. He has his own lifestyle he undertakes and doing this may excite him. I don't know because I've never talked to him.

Not much to say on the matter of the SxE lifestyle that others haven't already have mentioned in terms of these sexual actions. They believe that they shouldn't induce poisonous toxins into their bodies that is detrimental to their health, such as alcohol and drugs. Some people believe that having sex quite frequently with different people will cause your body to induce a poison in the form of a STI, which is against their beliefs. Others say that as long as you protect yourself and take precautions, who cares? Then you have the extremists that do it for them to have another vice that's not involving the basics.

People have different beliefs whilst maintaining a foundation a majority of people have in common. We can't tell them what to do, it's there choice. If they fucked up, it's their own fault. CM Punk could be a lying cheater if it's true, but that's not our problems to deal with and quite frankly I wouldn't care. My investment in him is to watch him entertain me on a weekly basis as a wrestler and nothing else.

 

[jmt225]

No, not really. You're saying, "this group of women are ****es". I'm saying, "Dude, you don't know this group of women to be judging them like that". Its not really the same thing.

I don't need to know them to think that, when various sources indicate that they are.

Seriously, any chick at ANY job will be looked at that way if she's slept with multiple co-workers. And the fact is, the majority of women in the business sleep with wrestlers. And if you sleep with a lot of wrestlers, the term for that is called "rat," which is why I call the majority of them glorified rats.

I'm really not. You made blanket statement about a group of individuals, none of whom you know personally, that was an extremely negative and degrading one. Did you see me judge them in any negative or positive way? I just think taking it to the extreme that you've taken it to is a little caveman.

Positive, yes. You're defending up for them after I made one little comment. That's making a judgment about their character.

Rikishi, Jim Ross, Steve Austin, Molly Holly, Val Venis, Ken Kennedy, Ivory, Ric Flair, Maria, John Morrison, and Bob Holly have all had mixed things to say about the women who work in wrestling. That means when they were asked about specific women, they said specific things. Which would lead me to believe that you're "rat" to non-rat ratio really isn't any different than you'd find out there in the "real world". Which may or may not be true.

And there have been way more wrestlers than that to say that I'm right. Way more so than those who say I'm wrong, which is why I share the belief I do and I have the right to share that belief without someone getting pissy over it and thinking I'm a tool just because I call women in the business that the majority of wrestlers also call them.

Again, my problem is you're justifying treating an entire group of people like trash without knowing them. I don't think that's cool and have ALWAYS considered that an invitation to get worked up, no matter who the group of people are.

I'm not treating them like trash; I'm just saying how I feel about them. It's not like if I met Tracy I would call her a fucking rat and bring her down (not that my words would bring her down, but you know what I mean). Whereas here, I'm just stating how I feel about this topic, since that's what a public forum is for.

Also, you don't have "facts", you have rumors. We can honestly count the number of those stories that have come from the source on one hand. (by "from the source" I mean the women themselves. I think we both know from personal experience that "locker room talk" is normally 75% false.)

Well, the "rumors" back up my stance, which is why I can look at them as factual, because you don't have anything to prove me wrong other than that you refuse to judge them.

And if these women are as "disgusting" and "loose" as you say they are, then why not just sleep with them? Is it really necessary to get into relationships with THEM and then cheat on them? Even if these women are "rats" how does that justify treating them like trash? I'd really hate to be a member of a group of people that you consider lower than yourself.

This is the best point you've brought up.

However, they're still glorified rats in my mind, because they still fall for wrestlers and sleep with them. Some are casual, some of false commitments, but still... you would think that eventually they would figure out that getting in relationships with wrestlers isn't the brightest idea, yet they do it anyway and get hurt. Why should I feel sorry for them and look down at the wrestler who was smart enough to realize that it doesn't matter if I stay with her or not, she'll be on to the next guy right after I dump her ass?

Finally, even if these women are "rats". Are they really doing anything differently than "all of the men" that you claim to be sleeping around with everyone? I find it odd that these men are just men who are away from home and need someone to sleep with and these women are "ring rats".

Again, this is also a good point, but you know double standards exist. That's just the way it is. In high school, you're the man if you sleep with the head cheerleader, and the head cheerleader is a **** if she sleeps with you. I'm not saying that it's right, but that's definitely how it is.

Not to mention the fact, that many of those women work hard and train just like the men do. . . but, yeah. . .let's reduce them to the treatment of a rodent just because of their gender. . .that's perfectly acceptable.

No, I respect those who go out there and bust their ass, but regardless... I can still look at them as ****s if they act like one.

I'll gladly take on the moniker of crybaby. Doesn't really bother me at all. I don't think prejudice is silly. I don't think double standards are silly. Maybe that makes me a crybaby. I happen to be damn proud of being a crybaby.

Dude, it's cool you believe so much in feminism, but you have to admit you overreacted to one small off-handed comment.

Did I say I was looking down on anyone?

You don't have to say it; that's how you act by saying shit like "these are the most piss poor excuses I ever heard in my life" as to why someone cheated on their girlfriend, when you're Mr. Perfect because you can work in a strip club and have a successful long distance relationship.

Did I not say that I WORK in a strip club? How many morally superior people would work where I work, let alone admit it to a group of people who wouldn't have known otherwise if I didn't tell them? I made it clear in my first post that I understand that mistakes happen, but I don't see any way to justify continuous cheating. Which doesn't mean that I'm going to look down on a person for doing so, but I will not make allowances for them. I think that's just as silly. I reckognize they simply made a mistake and I move on. I, however, will keep enjoying his in ring work and not really pay any attention to his personal life.

But that's exactly what it means, man. You're taking away from someone's character just because he cheated on his girlfriend, when you have know idea what said person goes through on a daily basis. That's the "holier than thou" attitude I was talking about.

Again, I never said anything about it making him/them a bad person. I just don't think those actions are totally okay. I would address the prejudice and sexism in those closing lines again, but I don't want to beat a dead horse. You get my point and I get yours, we're just going to have to agree to disagree here.

And as I told you, I don't think they're totally okay either, UNLESS it's done to a rat, lol. Then yeah.. I think it's perfectly fine, because women in the business know what they're getting themselves into if they start a relationship with a professional wrestler.

Seriously, how many success stories are there in the business when it comes to relationships? HBK and the Nitro Girl make one, Dreamer and Beulah make one more... name another.

 

[Soapguy]

I don't need to know them to think that, when various sources indicate that they are.

Seriously, any chick at ANY job will be looked at that way if she's slept with multiple co-workers. And the fact is, the majority of women in the business sleep with wrestlers. And if you sleep with a lot of wrestlers, the term for that is called "rat," which is why I call the majority of them glorified rats.

Again, they're sleeping with each-other. Which makes all of them rats. If you were calling the men rats too then we wouldn't be having this conversation. If Brooks and Daffney are rats then so is CM Punk. In fact, if we're going by
rumors (that you like to treat as facts) he's a much bigger and dirtier rat.

Positive, yes. You're defending up for them after I made one little comment. That's making a judgment about their character.

I'm pointing out that the little comment you made was beyond ridiculous and extremely prejudicial because you don't know them. Find one quote where I say all female wrestlers are wonderful wholesome women. . . what's that you can't? Yeah. . .didn't think so.

I'm not treating them like trash; I'm just saying how I feel about them. It's not like if I met Tracy I would call her a fucking rat and bring her down (not that my words would bring her down, but you know what I mean). Whereas here, I'm just stating how I feel about this topic, since that's what a public forum is for.

You're attempting to justify treating them like trash. Same thing. If you come on a public forum and make sexist comments then someone who's not too fond of people who perpetuate the sexual double standard might call you on it. Our conversation is a perfect example of this.

However, they're still glorified rats in my mind, because they still fall for wrestlers and sleep with them. Some are casual, some of false commitments, but still... you would think that eventually they would figure out that getting in relationships with wrestlers isn't the brightest idea, yet they do it anyway and get hurt. Why should I feel sorry for them and look down at the wrestler who was smart enough to realize that it doesn't matter if I stay with her or not, she'll be on to the next guy right after I dump her ass?

So. . . the wrestlers, in your mind,are taking advantage of stupid loose women (who happened to have all migrated to the wrestling business)? Yet you think it's perfectly acceptable for them to do this on a regular basis because they're going to keep moving on to other guys in hopes that one relationship will work out? Really? The more you try to defend the male wrestlers with your beliefs of what happens behind the scenes the more you make them look like complete total d-bags. . . and showing me that you believe the majority of your favorite wrestlers are doing that and that you think it's perfectly okay. (They've done nothing wrong here? Really?) Which, again, is making me doubt the point of this conversation,. . .alas, I was born with the inability to walk away so I shall keep going.

Again, this is also a good point, but you know double standards exist. That's just the way it is. In high school, you're the man if you sleep with the head cheerleader, and the head cheerleader is a **** if she sleeps with you. I'm not saying that it's right, but that's definitely how it is.

Just because a double standard exists doesn't mean it's right. Based on how you're judging these female wrestlers, I would say that you do agree with the double standard. Because not agreeing with it means not using it to judge individuals. . . or "rats" as you like to call them.

But that's exactly what it means, man. You're taking away from someone's character just because he cheated on his girlfriend, when you have know idea what said person goes through on a daily basis. That's the "holier than thou" attitude I was talking about.

Again, I said (multiple times) that I understand that mistakes happen. If this were confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt, I would not think Punk was a bad person. I would think, however, that he'd made a mistake. Which is kind of what human being were created to do.

If evidence came out that he did this regularly (like you seem to believe about most male wrestlers) then yeah. . . .I'd think he was a bit of a tool.

 

[jmt225]

Again, they're sleeping with each-other. Which makes all of them rats. If you were calling the men rats too then we wouldn't be having this conversation. If Brooks and Daffney are rats then so is CM Punk. In fact, if we're going by rumors (that you like to treat as facts) he's a much bigger and dirtier rat.

No, because as I already explained... the double standard exist. If CM Punk is able to sleep with Kelly Kelly one night and Maryse the next... then he's the fucking man. However, if Kelly fucks Punk one night and then Batista the next.. then she's a fucking ****.

That's just how it is, man. I could get into why it's like that between men and women, but that's for another discussion for another forum.

I'm pointing out that the little comment you made was beyond ridiculous and extremely prejudicial because you don't know them. Find one quote where I say all female wrestlers are wonderful wholesome women. . . what's that you can't? Yeah. . .didn't think so.

It wasn't that ridiculous, though. I don't have to know someone to come to a conclusion about who they are. I don't know OJ Simpson, but I certainly think he's a worthless scumbag, as I'm sure you probably do as well, even though you don't know him personally.

You're attempting to justify treating them like trash. Same thing. If you come on a public forum and make sexist comments then someone who's not too fond of people who perpetuate the sexual double standard might call you on it. Our conversation is a perfect example of this.

If they act like trash, then that's how they deserve to be treated. I firmly believe that. Just like if CM Punk acts like an asshole to everyone, then he deserves to be treated like an asshole right back.

So. . . the wrestlers, in your mind,are taking advantage of stupid loose women (who happened to have all migrated to the wrestling business)? Yet you think it's perfectly acceptable for them to do this on a regular basis because they're going to keep moving on to other guys in hopes that one relationship will work out? Really?

Yep, because men think with their dicks, and if women are stupid enough to fall for it, then they get whatever they deserve in cases like this.

The more you try to defend the male wrestlers with your beliefs of what happens behind the scenes the more you make them look like complete total d-bags. . . and showing me that you believe the majority of your favorite wrestlers are doing that and that you think it's perfectly okay. (They've done nothing wrong here? Really?) Which, again, is making me doubt the point of this conversation,. . .alas, I was born with the inability to walk away so I shall keep going.

But I don't think it's douchebaggery for a guy to sleep around, especially if it's a wrestler doing it with divas. If he knocks them up and then leaves them, then THAT'S a douchebag move and I would REALLY look down at that. However, if he just uses them for sex, and they allow it, then that's the woman's fault, not the guy's.

Just because a double standard exists doesn't mean it's right. Based on how you're judging these female wrestlers, I would say that you do agree with the double standard. Because not agreeing with it means not using it to judge individuals. . . or "rats" as you like to call them.

I'm not saying it's right, but that's how it is and always will be.

Just be happy we live in a country where we allow women to act as they want, rather than FORCING them to be "ladies" as a lot of other countries do.

Again, I said (multiple times) that I understand that mistakes happen. If this were confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt, I would not think Punk was a bad person. I would think, however, that he'd made a mistake. Which is kind of what human being were created to do.

Fair enough.

If evidence came out that he did this regularly (like you seem to believe about most male wrestlers) then yeah. . . .I'd think he was a bit of a tool.

Well, I wouldn't. If he did it regularly (which of course he doesn't), then the girls who fell for it would be that much more ******ed, because they know his past before sleeping with him.

 

[Soapguy]

No, because as I already explained... the double standard exist. If CM Punk is able to sleep with Kelly Kelly one night and Maryse the next... then he's the fucking man. However, if Kelly fucks Punk one night and then Batista the next.. then she's a fucking ****.

That's just how it is, man. I could get into why it's like that between men and women, but that's for another discussion for another forum.

Again, just saying "that's the way it is" doesn't justify it being that way. If people went around thinking "that's just the way it is" is an acceptable answer to ANY question then there would still be slaves and segregation and women not voting and women not being active in the workforce and people getting lynched for dating someone of a different race and all other kinds of screwed up ways of thinking. Because that's the way it was. . .so that clearly means all the things I mentioned are perfectly acceptable because there was a point in time where they were prevalent. . .at least using your "logic".

Yep, because men think with their dicks, and if women are stupid enough to fall for it, then they get whatever they deserve in cases like this.

Seriously? You do realize that I have a penis, right? That's another thing that pisses me off about the sexual double standard. It not only devalues women, but it paints men as these unevolved tools who can't help but run around screwing everything. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't really consider myself an unevolved tool. I'm a little sad that you look at your gender (and yourself) that way in addition to looking a women in the way.

I'm not saying it's right, but that's how it is and always will be.

Just be happy we live in a country where we allow women to act as they want, rather than FORCING them to be "ladies" as a lot of other countries do.

That doesn't make me happy because that's something that SHOULD be happening. Women should be allowed to do what they want. I'm also not going to be complacent because it could be worse. Our economy could be much worse. I mean, look at Mexico right now. So. . .by your logic we, as Americans, should be completely happy with the economy because it's not as bad as some places with less resources than we have? Really?

In conclusion, (that's a lie, I'll be back) CM Punk is a great wrestler and his lifestyle choice leads me to believe that he's a decent human being, but if he indeed did do what Tenta's original post says he did then he clearly made a mistake. If he couldn't handle the long distance thing with Daffney then he could've easily broken up with her in stead of sleeping around. I don't think that's that difficult of a concept. Would I hate him for it? Nope, but I'd give both Daffney and Brooks every right in the world to hate him. Would I think he was an awful person? Not really, because he made a MISTAKE. I'm quite positive I make a few of those every day, if not every hour. (the typos that are certain to be in this post are a good example of that.)

 

[LigerBomb]

But see... when it comes to promiscuous sex... that term "promiscuous" can be interpreted in so many ways.

Anything can be "interpreted" in almost anyway to justify practically anything. But look up the word promiscuous in a diction etc. and you can see that there is a very specific and exacting understanding of the concept with only slight variations and "wiggle room". Prescriptive vs. Descriptive and all that. Again, people will do what they want to do and will do/say whatever they need to to justify it.

Hell, some people think *********ion, fucking before marriage, and stuff like that should go into that category.

And based on what the word's actual defined meaning is they'd be very wrong.

The fact of the matter is, there is not clear definition of promiscuity, which is why more than anything that this can be the ultimate exception to the general rules of the SxE lifestyle.

Not a fact at all. There is a very straight forward and clear definition of promiscuity as it pertains to our modern Western/American culture both now and in the late 70s/early 80s. Here's one for example:
–adjective
1. characterized by or involving indiscriminate mingling or association, esp. having sexual relations with a number of partners on a casual basis.
And another:
pro·mis·cu·ous
-adj.

1. Having casual sexual relations frequently with different partners; indiscriminate in the choice of sexual partners.

Besides, Minor Threat, who basically created Straight Edge, mentioned NOTHING about fucking in the original "Straight Edge" song.

First, that song isn't like The Constitution of Straight Edge, or a bill that declares the be all end all of lifestyle.

That came from LATER on, just like how people later on decided to throw shit like the stuff I mentioned earlier as apart of the SxE lifestyle.

Second, by "LATER on" do mean a few songs (In My Eyes, Out of Step (With the World)) down the line on the In My Eyes EP which released mere months later?

Don't Smoke/Don't Drink/Don't Fuck/At least I can fucking think

Can't be any more clear than that. But I say again:
"... no-harm-no-foul, and to each his own as long as it doesn't hurt someone else I suppose."
"...It's perfectly fine but let's not pretend like the "no casual sex" aspect wasn't part of the origins just as much as the "no substance abuse" parts."

People wanna fuck and round (literally) and they want to still claim 'edge. I get it. I don't agree with it, but I get it.

 

[jmt225]

Anything can be "interpreted" in almost anyway to justify practically anything. But look up the word promiscuous in a diction etc. and you can see that there is a very specific and exacting understanding of the concept with only slight variations and "wiggle room". Prescriptive vs. Descriptive and all that. Again, people will do what they want to do and will do/say whatever they need to to justify it.

And based on what the word's actual defined meaning is they'd be very wrong.
Not a fact at all. There is a very straight forward and clear definition of promiscuity as it pertains to our modern Western/American culture both now and in the late 70s/early 80s. Here's one for example:
–adjective
1. characterized by or involving indiscriminate mingling or association, esp. having sexual relations with a number of partners on a casual basis.
And another:
pro·mis·cu·ous
-adj.

1. Having casual sexual relations frequently with different partners; indiscriminate in the choice of sexual partners.

I get your point, but regardless of the definition, it's still not clear, cut, and dry as you make it out to be. First of all, the definition I've been told over time (the Straight Edge definition of it, basically) is that you cannot have sex outside of a committed relationship (not saying you have to be married, but you do have to be in a relationship). That's what I've been told by people deep into the lifestyle. Now, what if you've been single for a year, and you end up having sex with a friend or whatever... would that be an Edge break, since by the SxE definition I've been lead to believe that that's "promiscuous"?

And let's say your definition is the right way to go about things... basically you can't be sleeping with multiple partners at once. Let's say you're single and have two friends who you casually sleep with... that's promiscuous according to that definition. Don't you see there's something wrong with that? Like, if a person lives the Straight Edge lifestyle to a T, by going to hardcore shows and he doesn't smoke, drink alcohol, or do drugs... but because he has two friends who he has sex with every now and then because he doesn't want to be in a committed relationship... he can't claim to be Straight Edge?

See, that's why I don't buy into the promiscuous sex thing, man. It's nowhere near as clear cut as not doing drugs and drinking alcohol. There are too many ways around it, and too many excuses a person could make.

First, that song isn't like The Constitution of Straight Edge, or a bill that declares the be all end all of lifestyle.

Without that song Straight Edge wouldn't exist though.

Second, by "LATER on" do mean a few songs (In My Eyes, Out of Step (With the World)) down the line on the In My Eyes EP which released mere months later?

Don't Smoke/Don't Drink/Don't Fuck/At least I can fucking think

Can't be any more clear than that. But I say again:

Well if we're supposed to take that as literal Liger, then to be Straight Edge you also must be celibate, right? Because there's nothing about promiscuity in those lyrics... just not to fuck.

 

[LigerBomb]

I get your point, but regardless of the definition, it's still not clear, cut, and dry as you make it out to be. First of all, the definition I've been told over time (the Straight Edge definition of it, basically) is that you cannot have sex outside of a committed relationship (not saying you have to be married, but you do have to be in a relationship). That's what I've been told by people deep into the lifestyle.

I think there's a bit more to it than that but if you were forced to sum it up in a sentence that would be decently understandable and digestible I think that would do nicely.

Now, what if you've been single for a year, and you end up having sex with a friend or whatever... would that be an Edge break, since by the SxE definition I've been lead to believe that that's "promiscuous"?

The "or whatever" covers a lot of ground so I won't comment on that. What I will say is that that example sounds pretty casual as does the whole idea of "fuck buddies" and "friends with benefits" (but I digress).

And let's say your definition is the right way to go about things... basically you can't be sleeping with multiple partners at once. Let's say you're single and have two friends who you casually sleep with... that's promiscuous according to that definition. Don't you see there's something wrong with that?

No I don't. Again I don't go in for the casually fucking people (even if they're good friends) thing. I think as the generations have come and gone and these concepts (FwB, fuck buddies, etc.) have entered into the culture and become somewhat acceptable behavior people just want to have their cake and eat it too.

Like, if a person lives the Straight Edge lifestyle to a T, by going to hardcore shows and he doesn't smoke, drink alcohol, or do drugs... but because he has two friends who he has sex with every now and then because he doesn't want to be in a committed relationship... he can't claim to be Straight Edge?

1.Going to hardcore shows has nothing to do with being straightedge. 2. Much like a vegan decides to make it harder on themselves to get proper nutrition yet follow the vegan lifestyle, choosing to not have committed relationships and trying to be straight edge just makes it harder to do by self-imposed choice. It's not like a "get out of jail free" card. 3.This is like a Catholic who does all "the right stuff" but really wants to be able to eat meat on Fridays during Lent. Or a Muslim who does everything "to a T" but wants to drink alcohol. They justify it by saying I follow all the "big rules", I'm still a good person, I go to service, it's just this one aspect I choose not to accept or follow etc. because I want to do what I want to do yet I still want to call myself a follower of ____.

See, that's why I don't buy into the promiscuous sex thing, man. It's nowhere near as clear cut as not doing drugs and drinking alcohol. There are too many ways around it, and too many excuses a person could make.

If you making excuses you know your doing what you shouldn't or else what are you excusing. Likewise if you're trying to find a "way around it" you trying to cheat the system. Again you know it's wrong you just want to do it anyway and hopefully not get caught and have a "good excuse" if/when you do. People can make the same deals and find round-about ways to drink and do drugs and smoke too.

Without that song Straight Edge wouldn't exist though.

That's debatable at best. Would it be called straight edge? Would they release their other clean living songs? What about other bands release songs about being 'straight'. Etc. etc., etc. So many questions. I won't speculate on what could have been. Especially when it has no bearing on my original point (which is that one song is not the be-all-end-all of a lifestyle or movement).

Well if we're supposed to take that as literal Liger, then to be Straight Edge you also must be celibate, right? Because there's nothing about promiscuity in those lyrics... just not to fuck.

By displaying those lyrics I was showing that it was clear that there was always a sexual component to straight edge as much as the other aspects. You used the word literal, not I. Don't misrepresent what ''I'' said.
Again, the sXe lifestyle is so much more than a scant few songs (or a single song) made by a bunch of DC teens in the early 80s. Nor should someone need everything explicitly dissected and laid out for them in a minute and half hardcore punk song to understand straight edge.