Divas: Those who can and those who can't

[Mustang Sally]

In the olden days, divas were wrestlers; some were horrible to look at (Hi, Moolah!) while others were decent, yet all had technical wrestling skills, in varying degrees. Moving forward, we had the "Torrie Wilson Era" for awhile, in which models were used as lady wrestlers. For the most part, they couldn't wrestle their way out of a paper bag, but were great to look at. If they were paired in the ring with a girl who could wrestle, the model could sometimes be coaxed into a semi-decent match. However, when WWE made the mistake of opposing Torrie Wilson with Stacy Keibler in a supposedly competitive match, the results were......well, it sucked. Still, folks enjoyed watching them as they stumbled around the ring, so it was worth having them around.....I guess. As time passed, the company got rid of the Torries' and Stacys' and no longer employed gals who possessed no athleticism at all.

Along the way, someone got the bright idea of hiring "athletic models" and having experienced wrestlers such as Fit Finlay and Dustin Runnels train them in the fine art of working a match. Although the matches will never be confused with Bret Hart vs Shawn Michaels for technical expertise, these gals could sometimes make stuff happen in the ring. Too often, they didn't because the divas were allotted 45 seconds to work a match....and there ain't gonna be too much story-telling in a contest that brief. This is pretty much where we stand today.

I still say the concept works best when WWE pairs a "wrestler" with the athletic model who's opposing her; the wrestler can guide the model through a contest and sometimes bring about a fairly decent match. Of course, one big problem is that the company seems to get rid of the actual wrestlers and keeps the models, which is one reason the diva division is in such a mess nowadays. I got the idea that there have never actually been many girls we could designate as true technicians, anyway.....so I resolved to make a list of those women I actually saw as trained wrestlers.....and it turned out the modern era contained more of them than I thought.

I'm sure I've forgotten some, and that I'll get disagreement on the status of others, but in no particular order, here's my list:

WOMEN WHO COULD ACTUALLY WRESTLE

Fabulous Moolah
Jacqueline
Wendy Richter
Alundra Blayze (Madusa)
Mickie James
Lita
Sherri Martel
Ivory
Chyna
Jazz
Molly Holly
Victoria
Gail Kim
Melina Perez
Beth Phoenix
Natalya Neidhart
Jillian Hall
Nicole Bass (sort of a woman, anyway)
Bertha Faye
Katie Lea
Luna Vachon
Tori (Kane & X-Pac's Tori)


WRESTLERS WHO WERE STRICTLY MODELS (not athletic models)

Torrie Wilson
Stacy Keibler
Sable
Debra McMichael
Miss Kitty (Lawler's girlfriend)
Carmella DeCesare
Cherry
Christy Hemme
Dawn Marie
Maria Kanellis
Candace Michelle


ATHLETIC MODELS

Everyone else



Now, you might disagree with my omission of Trish Stratus as a true wrestler, but that's the point; I don't think she was ever much of a technical worker, just a very limber athletic model who worked a match better than most other models. Trish did her best work when paired with actual wrestlers like Mickie James or Victoria, but her contests against other athletic models were nothing to write home about. Still, she looked great and could hit spots better than most divas.

CONCLUSION: Look at the list of true wrestlers. I'm surprised there were that many. However, look at how many the company has gotten rid of in recent years. Honestly, I think they've done a disservice by letting them go; the division was better with them than it's been without them. If I'm seeing this trend, surely the company sees it too. I wonder what their thinking is on this? Don't they see that having good wrestlers like Mickie and Gail who also look great is a benefit to the whole division?

 

[Darkshot77]

All in all a pretty well put together list, that is mostly accurate. The only two people I call into question are Melina and Jillian Hall.

I do not disagree with your classification of Trish Stratus. Many people seem to forget that she was a valet long before she was a wrestler. I will say that she out of all of the athletic models, picked up the trade better than anyone else. But having said that, with your description of Trish as a athletic model, Melina and Jillian are pretty much the same. Now I love Melina. But to say her wrestling abilities were on par with Mickie or Beth is a stretch. She was a valet for quite some period of time before becoming a wrestler. Now while she did pick up the craft, she did not have the raw talent of some of the other wrestlers. As far as Jillian goes, I keep hearing rumors that she could do 450 splashes and what not, but I never saw it. It might be because she got stuck with some atrocious gimmicks, but I digress. She was ok and pretty decent enhancement talent, but not on the level of those other girls.

Basically from what i can see you have divided the women in to three groups, those who have it (wrestling ability), those who don't, and those who can learn it. Melina and Trish stratus were able to learn how to sell moves and hit spots. Women like Candice Michelle were able to get a little, but ultimately never really picked up how to wrestle.

The current game plan for the WWE is to, find a good looking woman, and see if she can learn how to wrestle. that's why we have the bellas, Kelly, and Eve. Eve has learned how to wrestle pretty well, we can see that. And while I am not ready to close the book on the bellas, just yet, i will pass judgement on Kelly. She has been in the business for 6 years, and her in ring work while better than in the beginning has failed to reach the level of "good." In my opinion Kelly dose not have it.

This strategy is very hit and miss with the WWE. Some times you get Trish Stratus, some times you get Jackie Gayda. The problem with today is when Trish was being developed, there were may established female wrestlers on the roster, so the WWE could afford their grow, so to say, their own talent. They could sift out the chaff, while still keeping people interested in the division. The WWE is trying to grow another Trish Stratus, unfortunately because of "downsizing", they do not have the depth they once had. Sure having fit finlay and Dustin Runnels train them is good, but, with out enough strong female wrestlers on the roster you have drastically lowered the bar of excellence. And giving them 2 min to wrestle, does not help either.

At the end of the day there is no reason that the WWE should not be offering large contracts to women like Cheerleader Millissa, MsCheif, and Sara Del Ray. They just do not want to. Unlike TNA they do not see the woman's division as an asset. Honestly if the divas division just went away, Would it really even matter? On the other hand if the KO's division vanished from impact wrestling, that would be a huge hit to the company. Because they have invested effort into the division. The WWE will keep the wrestlers, when they care about the division again. Plain and simple.

 

[Bernkastel]

While I appreciate the effort Sally, you seem to be slightly misinformed.The ability to perform moves is but one aspect of a professional wrestler. You've also got to look at charisma [personality], and psychology [the ability to make a match believable.] The WWE has had quite a few good women's wrestlers over the years, but they've had just as many bad one's as well. Women's wrestling is, and foremost niche; they have never been, and will probably never be able to draw money and attention like the men do. Realizing this, the women that do become super successful wind up transending the division as a whole for various reasons. I don't look at women wrestlers as being either "wrestlers" or "models" because it's stupid, and really makes little sense. I'll do three lists; women whom I believe have trascended the division, good performers, and average performers. [These lists will only include women from the late 90's and up.]

List of women whom I believe have transcended the division.

These are the women that are the HOFamer's and soon to be HOFamer's; their accolades are impressive and many, and their legacies are just as memorable as their male counterparts.

Fabulous Moolah - For hype purposes surrounding her title reign and HOFamer
Mae Young - HOFamer
Sherri Martel - HOFamer
Wendi Richter - HOFamer
Trish Stratus - Future HOFamer
Lita - Future HOFamer
Sunny - Future HOFamer
Sable - Future HoFamer
Alundra Blayze - Future HOFamer

List of women whom I believe were good performers.

These women could put on exceptional matches on a regular basis that actually excited the crowds and didn't put them to sleep. These women could put on believable, emotionally charged matches that told great stories. Short but sweet in many cases, and surprisingly 'that wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be' in others.

Awesome Kong/Kharma - this woman can mask nearly anyone's weaknesses
Mickie James
Michelle McCool
Beth Phoenix
Candice Michelle
Layla El
Melina Perez
Ivory

List of women whom I believe to be average performers.

These were the women who were capable of having good matches, but only with the right kinds of opponents. When not matched up with a superior opponent to lead them, their in ring work is lullful and laborious.

Chyna
Luna Vachon
Victoria
Gail Kim
Jazz
Tori
Jacquline
Natayla
Molly Holly
Katie Lea

*Anyone else not mentioned is either average or below.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

List of women whom I believe were good performers.

Michelle McCool
Candice Michelle
Layla El
Melina Perez


List of women whom I believe to be average performers.

Victoria
Gail Kim
Jazz
Tori
Jacquline
Natayla
Molly Holly
Katie Lea

Wait....wait....

You are actually saying that you believe Candice Michelle, Melina, Michelle McCool and Layla are BETTER PERFORMERS than Gail Kim, Victoria/Tara, Molly, Natalya and Jazz?

And that McCool, Melina, Candice can put on exceptional matches with most women while Gail, Victoria, Molly and Natalya need a "more accomplished performer" like a Candice or their ring work is poor? Are you even watching the same human beings wrestle as the rest of us?

Those 4 women are 4 of the best in-ring performers of the last decade, while Candice Michelle and the others you mentioned are average at best. I'm very surprised at your thoughts on this.

 

[Suibon]

Triple Naitch:

Given that in the post you quoted, Echelon said

The ability to perform moves is but one aspect of a professional wrestler. You've also got to look at charisma [personality], and psychology [the ability to make a match believable.]

And having noted that at least three of the four women listed by him under the list of 'good performers' parlayed what skills they had and became popular beyond the confines of the Divas division (but please, Candace, Echelon? really), and the other four you exalt weren't as popular during their respective tenures (I'd really like to add Beth Phoenix to this, I really, but then Glamarella was real nice), well, I'd say he was watching the same human beings as you do.
​

 

[Bernkastel]

Wait....wait....

You are actually saying that you believe Candice Michelle, Melina, Michelle McCool and Layla are BETTER PERFORMERS than Gail Kim, Victoria/Tara, Molly, Natalya and Jazz?

And that McCool, Melina, Candice can put on exceptional matches with most women while Gail, Victoria, Molly and Natalya need a "more accomplished performer" like a Candice or their ring work is poor? Are you even watching the same human beings wrestle as the rest of us?

Those 4 women are 4 of the best in-ring performers of the last decade, while Candice Michelle and the others you mentioned are average at best. I'm very surprised at your thoughts on this.

Years ago my opinion would have been the same as yours until I realised how piss poor the latter 4 really were. I may be underrating Jazz a bit, but the others I am sure were average at best. Gail Kim is just all around awful; trying to justify her as a good performer is like trying to justify John Morrison as anything more than a spot monkey.

The WM match between Victoria and Molly hardly garnered any reaction at all aside from when Molly was getting her head shaved. That's pretty terrible considering that the match actually had decent build.

I've noticed how those three women have had their best matches with either Trish or Lita, but their matches together were forgetable. McCool, Candice, and Melina have all had a series of outstanding matches or programs in which they weren't made to look better than they really were.

 

[Beastmode 24]

I have to disagree with what was said about Trish. Just because she started out as a valet and transitioned into a wrestler doesn't mean she wasn't one of, if not the, most talented women's wrestlers in history. Her work ethic and determination to transform herself from eye candy to wrestler is something I really respect.

 

[Mustang Sally]

While I appreciate the effort Sally, you seem to be slightly misinformed.The ability to perform moves is but one aspect of a professional wrestler.

Agreed, Ech, but for the purposes of this topic, I was looking to spur discussion on that one factor alone. Undoubtedly, there's more to building a persona than just ability to wrestle. Look at John Cena; he lacks technical expertise in the ring, yet he's one of the most compelling performers pro wrestling ever saw (that he inspires love and hate only proves the point). So you're right; one has to look at more than just exchanges of holds and body slams in determining the worth of a WWE performer.

The point made earlier about Trish Stratus pertains, too. We can debate whether or not she's a competent ring technician, but there's no doubt she developed herself into a fine performer despite her lack of technical wrestling knowledge.

What I was after with this topic was to determine who the "true" wrestlers are in the women's division......and once I started compiling, I was surprised to find as many as I did. Plus, I stick to my contention that a divas' match goes smoother when a true wrestler is in there; she can lead the model through the process of a match, making the model's offense look good by selling it while, hopefully, coaching the model to do the same for her. Hitting spots is also made more effective when there's an experienced wrestler to guide the process.

Some of the "athletic models" have advanced farther than others in terms of working a match when there is no wrestler involved, but I still believe WWE is spiting the division by losing so many true wrestlers without having replaced them.

 

[Bernkastel]

Agreed, Ech, but for the purposes of this topic, I was looking to spur discussion on that one factor alone. Undoubtedly, there's more to building a persona than just ability to wrestle. Look at John Cena; he lacks technical expertise in the ring, yet he's one of the most compelling performers pro wrestling ever saw (that he inspires love and hate only proves the point). So you're right; one has to look at more than just exchanges of holds and body slams in determining the worth of a WWE performer.

The point made earlier about Trish Stratus pertains, too. We can debate whether or not she's a competent ring technician, but there's no doubt she developed herself into a fine performer despite her lack of technical wrestling knowledge.

What I was after with this topic was to determine who the "true" wrestlers are in the women's division......and once I started compiling, I was surprised to find as many as I did. Plus, I stick to my contention that a divas' match goes smoother when a true wrestler is in there; she can lead the model through the process of a match, making the model's offense look good by selling it while, hopefully, coaching the model to do the same for her. Hitting spots is also made more effective when there's an experienced wrestler to guide the process.

Some of the "athletic models" have advanced farther than others in terms of working a match when there is no wrestler involved, but I still believe WWE is spiting the division by losing so many true wrestlers without having replaced them.

By that definition though nearly all women performers can be labeled as "true" wrestlers. It doesn't take much effort for even the greenest of performers to learn how to execute the right moves and spots. Even selling and psychology can be learned simply by observation [case in point Trish.]

The women that I listed under "average" did a pretty piss poor job of making either themselves or their opponets look good, while the women I listed under "good" were competent and consistent at doing just that. For example, one of the big reasons as to why Beth came out looking like such a monster in 2007 and 2008 was that women like Candice, Melina, and Mickie were so good at selling her offense. They made those matches and spots look believeable. Other women like Kelly and maria pretty much just bumped without adding any realism.

 

[jacdnwarrior]

I don't blame the women for the decline, I blame the promoters. The wome who came before had to be trained extensively and the quality of performers they had to work with and help them was far greater than today.The other problem is it's a difficult transition from novice to competent wrestler for women and men. Some get it easy, many don't.

We're not in an era of good workers who are women, we're in the era of good looking female wrestlers. Kelly Kelly gets the belt not because she's the best, (she has improved) but because she can sell magazine covers and get the WWE more hits on their website or mainstream coverage than some one who doesn't have her look. Add to that the women don't get the tv time to help their character (very few do anyways) or to develop their craft before hitting tv.

As far as Trish is concerned, while she started as a valet she worked really hard to become a solid worker and I think she was a more than competent performer capable of doing great work in the ring.