Did anybody else sense ring rust from Tommy Dreamer?

[hatehabsforever]

Yes, I enjoyed it, and it's "drivel", not "dribble". Dribbling is what you do to a basketball. Drivel is silly nonsense.

Again, under most circumstances is this a main event quality match? Probably not, but considering the circumstances around Hardcore Justice, yes, it made sense to place it where it was.



See above.



I fail to see the difference in your explanation – you don't hate old wrestlers, but you hate old wrestlers who still wrestle? How are they old wrestlers if they don't wrestle?



And Beer Money v. MCMG won't culminate at Hardcore Justice – they have a scheduled "game five" in their best-of-five (in the event it's needed, which means it will happen) at the "special" August 12th episode of iMPACT! which will feature what would have been the card for Hard Justice that became Hardcore Justice when Dreamer requested one more night.

Oh, and I'm a Raven mark. Anytime he shows up, it's gold for me.

You're right, it is "drivel" rather than "dribble," I stand corrected. Maybe after watching the senior citizens wrestle, it put the word dribble in my mind.

While I grant you the correction, it's probably the only time I'll agree with you here in this thread. The idea of putting the Abyss/Dreamer match as the main event is somewhat flawed, because the main event match of the show(s) prior to a PPV are supposed to hype it up and generate interest. As I see it, this match did neither, in fact it probably highlighted the flaws which will keep many people, myself included, away. If they wanted a ECW main event to start the hype machine, they should have had it with guys who could still go in the ring, although this may be somewhat of a challenge considering the guys slated to appear on this show.

With regards to the old wrestlers, it's actually pretty easy to understand. Guys like Dreamer are in their late 30's, other guys may be into their 40's and beyond. These are the guys I have a problem watching in the ring and are the guys who really should limit their time there. On the other hand, you have guys of comparable age, such as Chris Jericho, Triple H, Shawn Michaels (before his retirement, obviously) who can still be very effective in the ring and still have a place there. It's not like "wrestler x is 38 years old, I don't like him and he should retire." It's more like "wrestler x is 38 years old, he's fat, he can barely move because of his knees (and other reasons), I think it's time for him to call it a career." Big and clear difference actually.

My Beer Money versus MCMG main event suggestion would probably not have been relevant on last night's show, I was simply showing an example of the type of guys on the TNA roster who should be main eventing in general. AJ Styles. Desmond Wolfe. MCMG. Pope. Hell, even Angle who is past his prime but still very good obviously. They should be featuring guys like this in their main events, building towards PPV's which also highlight them. But instead we are left with a slow motion out of shape Tommy Dreamer versus the unstoppable monster who was like Forrest Gump a couple of months ago and as such lost all believability in the monster role.

And I used to like Raven myself. Used to. Years ago. I also used to like Larry Bird and Ray Bourque, but I don't want to see them come out of retirement any time soon, that would just be sad.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

While I grant you the correction, it's probably the only time I'll agree with you here in this thread. The idea of putting the Abyss/Dreamer match as the main event is somewhat flawed, because the main event match of the show(s) prior to a PPV are supposed to hype it up and generate interest. As I see it, this match did neither, in fact it probably highlighted the flaws which will keep many people, myself included, away. If they wanted a ECW main event to start the hype machine, they should have had it with guys who could still go in the ring, although this may be somewhat of a challenge considering the guys slated to appear on this show.

So what happens if/when the quarterly breakdowns come back and the main event draws better or as well as say the MCMG/Beer Money match? Would you still contend that it has no places as a main event match despite the fact it was leading up to the Hardcore Justice PPV?

With regards to the old wrestlers, it's actually pretty easy to understand. Guys like Dreamer are in their late 30's, other guys may be into their 40's and beyond. These are the guys I have a problem watching in the ring and are the guys who really should limit their time there. On the other hand, you have guys of comparable age, such as Chris Jericho, Triple H, Shawn Michaels (before his retirement, obviously) who can still be very effective in the ring and still have a place there. It's not like "wrestler x is 38 years old, I don't like him and he should retire." It's more like "wrestler x is 38 years old, he's fat, he can barely move because of his knees (and other reasons), I think it's time for him to call it a career." Big and clear difference actually.

I agree, but not all characters fit that bill, and presuming their roles are retracted enough, I have no issue with seeing Flair wrestle a match, for example. That Lethal bout was one of the best matches on that PPV card – bar none.

Kevin Nash, for example, often gets criticized for being one of those types who needs to retire, but every time I ask what Kevin Nash did then that he can't do now, I'm met by a deafening silence.

My Beer Money versus MCMG main event suggestion would probably not have been relevant on last night's show, I was simply showing an example of the type of guys on the TNA roster who should be main eventing in general. AJ Styles. Desmond Wolfe. MCMG. Pope. Hell, even Angle who is past his prime but still very good obviously. They should be featuring guys like this in their main events, building towards PPV's which also highlight them. But instead we are left with a slow motion out of shape Tommy Dreamer versus the unstoppable monster who was like Forrest Gump a couple of months ago and as such lost all believability in the monster role.

And I agree, in the event that type of match/story is what is leading to the PPV in the coming weeks, but it wasn't, so the suggestion is irrelevant to this discussion.

Dreamer, aside from how you feel about his ability to still go, was leading to the PPV, so it made sense, logically speaking, to promote him.

And I used to like Raven myself. Used to. Years ago. I also used to like Larry Bird and Ray Bourque, but I don't want to see them come out of retirement any time soon, that would just be sad.

Considering Raven, Dreamer, etc. never retired to begin with, your comparison is flawed. You are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[hatehabsforever]

So what happens if/when the quarterly breakdowns come back and the main event draws better or as well as say the MCMG/Beer Money match? Would you still contend that it has no places as a main event match despite the fact it was leading up to the Hardcore Justice PPV?



I agree, but not all characters fit that bill, and presuming their roles are retracted enough, I have no issue with seeing Flair wrestle a match, for example. That Lethal bout was one of the best matches on that PPV card – bar none.

Kevin Nash, for example, often gets criticized for being one of those types who needs to retire, but every time I ask what Kevin Nash did then that he can't do now, I'm met by a deafening silence.



And I agree, in the event that type of match/story is what is leading to the PPV in the coming weeks, but it wasn't, so the suggestion is irrelevant to this discussion.

Dreamer, aside from how you feel about his ability to still go, was leading to the PPV, so it made sense, logically speaking, to promote him.



Considering Raven, Dreamer, etc. never retired to begin with, your comparison is flawed. You are comparing apples to oranges.

If the quarterly breakdown comes out and that particular main event draws better or even as well as BM vs MCMG, I'll be very surprised, shocked in fact. I will gladly retract my comments if that turns out to be the case. But if the TNA audience actually prefers Abyss/Dreamer over BM/MCMG, it does not bode well for the future for TNA. I thought the tag team match was really good last night, too much blood just for blood's sake, but that's typical of TNA trying to separate itself from WWE. I just cannot fathom how anyone, regardless of their preferences or regardless of what PPV is imminent, could prefer Abyss/Dreamer over that tag match.

I actually don't have too much problem with Flair wrestling on occasion, and I realize that's a little bit inconsistnet with my overall views, but he is Ric Flair after all and as such should get cut a little more slack. But I don't thin Flair should be main eventing any time soon. I don't think he should be fron and centre in any upcoming PPV's. And, using your own words, Flair's involvement should be retracted. Which for the most part, it has been.

Same applies to Kevin Nash. He shouldn't be main eventing or highlighting any PPV's at this stage of his career, but a retracted in-ring role is OK. I've always been a big fan of Kevin Nash, and even more so of Scott Hall. But even you must admit their better days are behind them.

And comparing Dreamer or Raven to retired guys is somewhat apples and oranges, I'll grant you that, but not really, because they should have retired from in-ring action in the biggest companies a while ago.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

If the quarterly breakdown comes out and that particular main event draws better or even as well as BM vs MCMG, I'll be very surprised, shocked in fact. I will gladly retract my comments if that turns out to be the case. But if the TNA audience actually prefers Abyss/Dreamer over BM/MCMG, it does not bode well for the future for TNA. I thought the tag team match was really good last night, too much blood just for blood's sake, but that's typical of TNA trying to separate itself from WWE. I just cannot fathom how anyone, regardless of their preferences or regardless of what PPV is imminent, could prefer Abyss/Dreamer over that tag match.

That's not to say that fans want to see Abyss/Dreamer over MCMG/BMI as much as it might be to say that fans enjoyed seeing Abyss/Dreamer as much as they enjoyed seeing MCMG/BMI – the two aren't the same, even if you choose to treat them as such. It's a here and now thing – right now, the EV2.0 thing is something some folks actually like, while others do not, but it's a momentary thing that likely won't carry a future as long as MCMG or BMI, so to insinuate that fans are idiotic for wanting to see something while they still can when MCMG/BMI aren't going anywhere is ridiculous. Both teams signed long-term deals with the company and are being pushed –*what's wrong with the pace at which they're receiving it? If they don't close the show it's not good enough?

I actually don't have too much problem with Flair wrestling on occasion, and I realize that's a little bit inconsistnet with my overall views, but he is Ric Flair after all and as such should get cut a little more slack. But I don't thin Flair should be main eventing any time soon. I don't think he should be fron and centre in any upcoming PPV's. And, using your own words, Flair's involvement should be retracted. Which for the most part, it has been.

Flairs role has dramatically reduced since January, and he's not main eventing anything as a wrestler. At best, he'll be a prominent figure head with Fortune, where the focus will be on the wreslters that compose the group, not the groups iconic leader.

Same applies to Kevin Nash. He shouldn't be main eventing or highlighting any PPV's at this stage of his career, but a retracted in-ring role is OK. I've always been a big fan of Kevin Nash, and even more so of Scott Hall. But even you must admit their better days are behind them.

Sure, but that doesn't make these days not good, just because they're not as good as the days of old. Nash isn't in the main event, anyway, and hasn't been since he came to TNA. He's never really been a contender for the WHC, and on numerous occasions has spoken out about the fact he doesn't want to be. He's been and will continue to be one of the most vocal backstage talents behind pushing young guys.

And comparing Dreamer or Raven to retired guys is somewhat apples and oranges, I'll grant you that, but not really, because they should have retired from in-ring action in the biggest companies a while ago.

Matter of personal opinion I simply can't agree with. Raven has always been a cerebral wrestling character, which means his physical condition is rather irrelevant to his ability to sell something. He doesn't even have to wrestle to be effective – see Serotonin.

 

[hatehabsforever]

That's not to say that fans want to see Abyss/Dreamer over MCMG/BMI as much as it might be to say that fans enjoyed seeing Abyss/Dreamer as much as they enjoyed seeing MCMG/BMI – the two aren't the same, even if you choose to treat them as such. It's a here and now thing – right now, the EV2.0 thing is something some folks actually like, while others do not, but it's a momentary thing that likely won't carry a future as long as MCMG or BMI, so to insinuate that fans are idiotic for wanting to see something while they still can when MCMG/BMI aren't going anywhere is ridiculous. Both teams signed long-term deals with the company and are being pushed –*what's wrong with the pace at which they're receiving it? If they don't close the show it's not good enough?



Flairs role has dramatically reduced since January, and he's not main eventing anything as a wrestler. At best, he'll be a prominent figure head with Fortune, where the focus will be on the wreslters that compose the group, not the groups iconic leader.



Sure, but that doesn't make these days not good, just because they're not as good as the days of old. Nash isn't in the main event, anyway, and hasn't been since he came to TNA. He's never really been a contender for the WHC, and on numerous occasions has spoken out about the fact he doesn't want to be. He's been and will continue to be one of the most vocal backstage talents behind pushing young guys.



Matter of personal opinion I simply can't agree with. Raven has always been a cerebral wrestling character, which means his physical condition is rather irrelevant to his ability to sell something. He doesn't even have to wrestle to be effective – see Serotonin.

Surprisingly, I think we are in agreement here more than you may realize. We are in agreement about Flair; his in-ring action has been limited and I have no problem whatsoever with himin a mentoring capacity. Same goes for Nash, he hasn't been in the main event picture nor does he want to be.

I guess we disagree about the whole ECW/EV2.o thing. You like Raven and make reference to Serotonin. I assume you are referencing the Serotonin faction from over a decade ago. I liked Serotonin as well, back in the 90's, that's not to say the faction, or anyone in it, is still relevant today, or should close a wrestling show today. Some would say Raven's gimmick is cerebral, others might suggest it is a gimmick to overcome his shortcomings in the ring. Either way, I don't think if I owned a wrestling company in 2010, I would want a PPV featuring someone as dated and broken down as Raven. Same can be said for Dreamer. Just because he was extreme back in the 90's hardly makes his extreme today. Extremely slow. Extremely ungrateful to his last few years in the WWE. But he days of him being an extreme wrestler are long gone. At least Flair and Nash are content in the background and don't need one last blaze of glory to conclude their careers.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Surprisingly, I think we are in agreement here more than you may realize. We are in agreement about Flair; his in-ring action has been limited and I have no problem whatsoever with himin a mentoring capacity. Same goes for Nash, he hasn't been in the main event picture nor does he want to be.

I guess we disagree about the whole ECW/EV2.o thing. You like Raven and make reference to Serotonin. I assume you are referencing the Serotonin faction from over a decade ago. I liked Serotonin as well, back in the 90's, that's not to say the faction, or anyone in it, is still relevant today, or should close a wrestling show today. Some would say Raven's gimmick is cerebral, others might suggest it is a gimmick to overcome his shortcomings in the ring. Either way, I don't think if I owned a wrestling company in 2010, I would want a PPV featuring someone as dated and broken down as Raven. Same can be said for Dreamer. Just because he was extreme back in the 90's hardly makes his extreme today. Extremely slow. Extremely ungrateful to his last few years in the WWE. But he days of him being an extreme wrestler are long gone. At least Flair and Nash are content in the background and don't need one last blaze of glory to conclude their careers.

No no, Serotonin – Raven's incarnation in TNA from back in 2006. Consisted of Raven (leader), Kaz, Matt Bently (as Martyr) and Johnny Devine (as Havok).

It was basically another inception of Raven's Flock a la WCW, and was a failed attempt as they weren't booked properly, but the concept behind the group was fantastic, and the psychology of Raven beating the losers with a kendo stick in the middle of the ring while wearing all those crazy outfits was amazing, and it's partially responsible for the (marginal) success of Kaz thereafter – success that eventually lead to him defeating Angle in a one-on-one match, which is something not a lot of wrestlers can write on their resume without outright lying.

I don't really think Raven needs that blaze of glory, as you put it, either – he's been more than content working smaller angles over the last few years, and this is a man who was main eventing TNA PPV's back in 2005 over the NWA World Heavyweight Championship.

 

[hatehabsforever]

No no, Serotonin – Raven's incarnation in TNA from back in 2006. Consisted of Raven (leader), Kaz, Matt Bently (as Martyr) and Johnny Devine (as Havok).

It was basically another inception of Raven's Flock a la WCW, and was a failed attempt as they weren't booked properly, but the concept behind the group was fantastic, and the psychology of Raven beating the losers with a kendo stick in the middle of the ring while wearing all those crazy outfits was amazing, and it's partially responsible for the (marginal) success of Kaz thereafter – success that eventually lead to him defeating Angle in a one-on-one match, which is something not a lot of wrestlers can write on their resume without outright lying.

I don't really think Raven needs that blaze of glory, as you put it, either – he's been more than content working smaller angles over the last few years, and this is a man who was main eventing TNA PPV's back in 2005 over the NWA World Heavyweight Championship.

I stand corrected, again. Twice in the same day, IDR, I must be slipping! I was thinking of the Flock from back in the WCW days. I was not watching TNA at all back in 2006 and as such have no opinion of any merit regarding Serotonin.

I really liked Raven back in the days of WCW, and for that matter, I liked him in WWE as well. I guess I'm just not ready for him being a prominent piece of a PPV in 2010, which is really my beef with this whole angle. I just don't think it serves TNA well to pay tribute to Dreamer and others in this manner. Not to say they don't deserve such a send-off, I just don't know why it's incumbent upon TNA to be the ones paying homage to them in this manner at this time. When they should be building for the future and trying to lure a new audience away from WWE and elsewhere, this whole retro movement hurts them in the end. Especially when the guys are physically unable to back it up like they could (arguably) back in the day. Because when this one night tribute is over, then what?

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I stand corrected, again. Twice in the same day, IDR, I must be slipping! I was thinking of the Flock from back in the WCW days. I was not watching TNA at all back in 2006 and as such have no opinion of any merit regarding Serotonin.

I really liked Raven back in the days of WCW, and for that matter, I liked him in WWE as well. I guess I'm just not ready for him being a prominent piece of a PPV in 2010, which is really my beef with this whole angle. I just don't think it serves TNA well to pay tribute to Dreamer and others in this manner. Not to say they don't deserve such a send-off, I just don't know why it's incumbent upon TNA to be the ones paying homage to them in this manner at this time. When they should be building for the future and trying to lure a new audience away from WWE and elsewhere, this whole retro movement hurts them in the end. Especially when the guys are physically unable to back it up like they could (arguably) back in the day. Because when this one night tribute is over, then what?

This all depends on what perspective you look at it from.

If you look at it from the angle of TNA wanting to garner more interest in their product by capitalizing on the success of a former product they have access to for a momentary injection of some of those older fans who might stick around, this type of thing can be viewed as a potential success (barring the outcome, of course), but if you look at it as yet another in a long line of failed attempts to do just that (as they've been accused of doing a number of times), I can see how that might turn off current TNA fans, or fringe fans such as yourself from even wanting to watch at all. It's sort of a double-edged sword, to be honest.

By the way, here's some of the Serotonin work:

[YOUTUBE]BRDdhAI0rig[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]C4rxlIyIHDo[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]kaafrBBMIw8[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]tLY29qm56K4[/YOUTUBE]

 

[jccool420]

Damn, it felt good as hell to see Impact go off the air with Raven in the spotlight...

Granted, I'm a huge Raven mark, but I thought he was in great shape and I really hope he is involved in the "They" storyline... Wouldn't it be great if he had been in Abyss' ear along with James Mitchell and they were against Tommy's idea for a One Last Stand... Raven could have wanted the guys to invade and try to take over TNA and his group could be pissed that Tommy got the okay from Dixie and got it TNA approved...

Anyway, I think Dreamer had a good match with Abyss considering his injury... It was one of the better Abyss matches that I've seen in a long time... I just hate that damn board he has, we know he will neer hit anyone with it... the damn thing is deadly...

I can't wait for the PPV...

 

[The Best At What I Do]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahhhahaha ring rust!? I think the term you're looking for is 'absolutely shit in the ring... rust.' He had ring rust back when he started WWECW and could barely get his round ass through a 5 minute match. Now he's just a shell of the man he once was. So of course TNA decides to put him in the main event in a match that was completely indistinguishable from a bum fight. Just two slow fat slobs beating the piss out of each other with trash cans. The only thing missing was a sandwich being on the line.

 

[Wade's Public Transit Bomb]

I don't think Tommy was ever good? This is a guy known for his Kendo stickin' and some other stupid hardcore stuff. It was clearly waaaayy slower in his last years as part of the ECW brand. Feel good stories are only good if you can get something out of it, so it isn't much a surprise they didn't use him as much.

If nothing else, him tearing his ACL during that first brawl should've been taken as a warning from the wrestling gods.. But everyone thinks Ric Flair is crazy. haha

 

[Schizophrenic]

The match was never guaranteed to be a classic. Anyone who saw his match with Jon Moxley at Dragon Gate USA's PPV know that what caused Dreamer's performance to suffer was two things...1) his injury. If anyone has ever fucked the MCL up they know walking is a chore so I give it to Tommy for even taking bumps and 2) his opponet. Abyss has never been teh most graceful of people so to expect ballet from those two (Tommy isn't as cordinated as some may think) is just ridiculous.

 

[Reddannihilation]

I liked it. I'd give the match a 2.5/5. Match was entertaining enough, taking into consideration Tommy's injury and the fact that it was Abyss, I found it adequate. It did what it was meant to do, developed interest in the next weeks show and the ECW PPV. I want to know why Raven attacked and it was fun to watch a Hardcore wrestler from the 90's compete against a modern hardcore wrestler to help give Abyss a small rub. But most of all it made me ask the question "Why did Raven attack Tommy?" and for that I believe the match did what it was meant to do. Tommy's not rusty, he was just working with an injury, it's all good in my book.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

If the quarterly breakdown comes out and that particular main event draws better or even as well as BM vs MCMG, I'll be very surprised, shocked in fact. I will gladly retract my comments if that turns out to be the case. But if the TNA audience actually prefers Abyss/Dreamer over BM/MCMG, it does not bode well for the future for TNA. I thought the tag team match was really good last night, too much blood just for blood's sake, but that's typical of TNA trying to separate itself from WWE. I just cannot fathom how anyone, regardless of their preferences or regardless of what PPV is imminent, could prefer Abyss/Dreamer over that tag match.

Q4: 1.21 rating - A.J. Styles renames the Global Title, Kurt Angle out, Motor City Machine Guns vs. Beer Money cage match,

Q8: 1.28 rating - Tommy Dreamer out for main event, Abyss vs. Dreamer, Raven turns on Dreamer

Well, fancy that, eh Habs? Guess the old timers and the ECW "nonsense" ain't so bad for ratings afterall, yeah?

Just FYI, the show itself drew a 1.2, but the highest rated segment came in at 1.33 – Q7: Hardy and Anderson vs. Morgan, Gunner, and Murphy, Christy Hemme talks with Hulk Hogan backstage, Eric Bischoff and Miss Tessmacher with Abyss and Rob Van Dam out

 

[The Best At What I Do]

Q4: 1.21 rating - A.J. Styles renames the Global Title, Kurt Angle out, Motor City Machine Guns vs. Beer Money cage match,

Q8: 1.28 rating - Tommy Dreamer out for main event, Abyss vs. Dreamer, Raven turns on Dreamer

This is a sad sad day in the wrestling world. A bum fight outdrew what was without a shadow of a doubt the best match on iMPACT! that night. Well at least TNA gets that sweet ratings increase they were looking for. Hopefully they can maintain it after this little One Night Stand Episode III is done.

 

[hatehabsforever]

Q4: 1.21 rating - A.J. Styles renames the Global Title, Kurt Angle out, Motor City Machine Guns vs. Beer Money cage match,

Q8: 1.28 rating - Tommy Dreamer out for main event, Abyss vs. Dreamer, Raven turns on Dreamer

Well, fancy that, eh Habs? Guess the old timers and the ECW "nonsense" ain't so bad for ratings afterall, yeah?

Just FYI, the show itself drew a 1.2, but the highest rated segment came in at 1.33 – Q7: Hardy and Anderson vs. Morgan, Gunner, and Murphy, Christy Hemme talks with Hulk Hogan backstage, Eric Bischoff and Miss Tessmacher with Abyss and Rob Van Dam out

And as promised, I guess I have to retract my comments. Totally shocked that a match as good as the Beer Money versus MCMG was not rated as highly as the old fogies trip down memory lane.

But I stand by the second half of what I said, as the other guy who apparently is the best at what he does said, it is a sad commentary upon the current status of TNA wrestling when the unstoppable monster Abyss, who had been demeaned to a Forrest Gump clone, and a one-legged out of shape has been (or never was) turns out to be the main event of the show and actually outdraws the miniscule amount of quality displayed on the show. If TNA needs nostalgia of this type to draw an audience, I don't see a bright future for them. Because I don't see how they will sustain this "momentum" and move forward into the future when your focal point of your show has a shelf life of about two weeks.

 

[harrythem]

Tommy Dreamer must've suffered ring-rust his entire career because, to me, he's always been shit. He's had a great feud (with Raven) but that was the outside the ring stuff (and Raven's input) that pushed that along. Dreamer's a great guy, but he's a crap wrestler that fans just can't take as a top level talent. His gimmick has always reminded me of a hardcore Brooklin Brawler, just with a few more career breaks and better storylines.

Although I love to see a bit of hardcore craziness in wrestling I don't think it often makes for a good match (in the classic sense of the word) and, sadly, I can see Dreamer and Raven busting out the blades within 30 seconds of their hardcore justice match, and going even crazier from there

 

[It's Damn Real!]

And as promised, I guess I have to retract my comments. Totally shocked that a match as good as the Beer Money versus MCMG was not rated as highly as the old fogies trip down memory lane.

But I stand by the second half of what I said, as the other guy who apparently is the best at what he does said, it is a sad commentary upon the current status of TNA wrestling when the unstoppable monster Abyss, who had been demeaned to a Forrest Gump clone, and a one-legged out of shape has been (or never was) turns out to be the main event of the show and actually outdraws the miniscule amount of quality displayed on the show. If TNA needs nostalgia of this type to draw an audience, I don't see a bright future for them. Because I don't see how they will sustain this "momentum" and move forward into the future when your focal point of your show has a shelf life of about two weeks.

I'm not, because TNA is capitalizing on something worth capitalizing. This makes all the sense in the world if you actually think about it.

TNA invokes ECW's name to bring back hardcore/ECW fans to the wrestling world for a reunion show. Hardcore/ECW fans then watch a number of TNA programs (potentially including the PPV) and give TNA another chance (or a first one). Even if they only take a small percentage of those folks, it's still more than they had had they not done it in the first place.

 

[hatehabsforever]

I'm not, because TNA is capitalizing on something worth capitalizing. This makes all the sense in the world if you actually think about it.

TNA invokes ECW's name to bring back hardcore/ECW fans to the wrestling world for a reunion show. Hardcore/ECW fans then watch a number of TNA programs (potentially including the PPV) and give TNA another chance (or a first one). Even if they only take a small percentage of those folks, it's still more than they had had they not done it in the first place.

You really are a "glass is half full" kind of guy, IDR, and that's admirable, it really is. But you're also a little delusional (no offence).

It's more like this. TNA invokes ECW's name to bring back the hardcore wrestling fans for yet another walk (or limp) down memory lane. The hardcore fans watch the current TNA product and see that it's nothing, absolutely nothing, like the 90's version of hardcore being teased by Hardcore Justice. Over the following weeks/months, they tune it back out and the gain in audience is minimal, at best.

Meanwhile, the current TNA fans (as few as they are) get a little pissed off by the change in direction of their beloved brand. Again. Tired of unfulfilled promises by Dixie Carter. Again. They actually lose a little of their current fan base, which offsets the minimal gains made by HJ. Bottom line? A best case scenario of break even, and that's assuming it's a good PPV, which I'm not totally convinced of. Because I think even some of the hardcore wrestling fans you reference will be disappointed when they see their beloved ECW guys coming in in slow motion or using walkers. It's just not a formula for success or progress, in my opinion.

But again, I could be wrong (although I'm not ).

 

[It's Damn Real!]

You really are a "glass is half full" kind of guy, IDR, and that's admirable, it really is. But you're also a little delusional (no offence).

It's more like this. TNA invokes ECW's name to bring back the hardcore wrestling fans for yet another walk (or limp) down memory lane. The hardcore fans watch the current TNA product and see that it's nothing, absolutely nothing, like the 90's version of hardcore being teased by Hardcore Justice. Over the following weeks/months, they tune it back out and the gain in audience is minimal, at best.

Meanwhile, the current TNA fans (as few as they are) get a little pissed off by the change in direction of their beloved brand. Again. Tired of unfulfilled promises by Dixie Carter. Again. They actually lose a little of their current fan base, which offsets the minimal gains made by HJ. Bottom line? A best case scenario of break even, and that's assuming it's a good PPV, which I'm not totally convinced of. Because I think even some of the hardcore wrestling fans you reference will be disappointed when they see their beloved ECW guys coming in in slow motion or using walkers. It's just not a formula for success or progress, in my opinion.

But again, I could be wrong (although I'm not ).

Just like you weren't wrong about people wanting to see Dreamer/Abyss, right?

If I'm glass half full, you're most certainly glass half empty – hell, in TNA's case, I'd say you're actually glass is empty and has been empty for weeks and all that's left of any discernible liquid residue is the now dried and very thin layer of whatever said liquid was crusted at the bottom of said glass.

I'm curious though, how are current TNA fans (as few as they are – all 1.6 million of them) get pissed about the direction of their beloved brand when the ratings and the number of fans watching are rising?

 

[TheAnimal]

With Dreamer, although i never rated his ring work much, that kind of match can easily become disjointed because it can end up moving from weapon spot to weapon spot with no real psychology to it. So i guess in that sense, yeah we might have sensed that.

I have posted on the ECW issue before. I think TNA will end up shooting themselves in the foot with this. For the moment it is good for them to have the short term increase, but watching Dreamers promo why the fuck did Hogan come out? I know he was thanking them but it could have easily been done with a go to the locker room 'thanks for choosing TNA brother'. Then Abyss came out. It won't be allowed to occur without Hogan being a main part of it, and with him having never been in ECW, why? Abyss has his hardcore monster gimmick so it seems inevitable he will be involved but why Hogan.

What TNA should do is give their younger guys the rub from this - have a young tag team beat Team 3D in their own type of match. Have Desmond Wolfe get on the road to recovery by beating an original in their own type of match. Hell have Rhyno and someone else tear the house down all over the arena. This has to be more than the nostalgia ride or, and i reiterate, come September TNA will be right back where they were before.

I think as well, when WWE bought it back, it was successful because it was unique. Nobody had ever revived a promotion like that with that exposure. Then in 2006 they did it again. Then we had the brand, started off very well i think but then declined. Now TNA are doing it but we dont really have the same buzz. When push comes to shove, how many people actually will buy the PPV? How many people would instead be thinking i'll try to track down the original ONS DVD? The wrestlers comprising EV 2.0 would not have any relevance really or any business in this kind of spot in 2010 singularly. Together they just pull it off. But Raven looks past it now, Dreamer is still the WWE jobber to me, Team 3D are obese, Foley is desperately seeking that Indian Summer to his career now i think, Rhyno is stale and Steven Richards hasn't been relevant since RTC. Together though they mean something. The ideal of EV 2.0 is what people are buying/watching. Not the superstars comprising it.

It seems to me they couldn't get Heyman so they steal his original idea.

 

[hatehabsforever]

Just like you weren't wrong about people wanting to see Dreamer/Abyss, right?

If I'm glass half full, you're most certainly glass half empty – hell, in TNA's case, I'd say you're actually glass is empty and has been empty for weeks and all that's left of any discernible liquid residue is the now dried and very thin layer of whatever said liquid was crusted at the bottom of said glass.

I'm curious though, how are current TNA fans (as few as they are – all 1.6 million of them) get pissed about the direction of their beloved brand when the ratings and the number of fans watching are rising?

With regards to TNA, I may be a little "glass is half empty," but it's more like "I'm really sorry that my glass is half empty. If only I had gone more slowly and been more patient, rather than gulping it all down all at once (like Jan 04 and the new Monday Night Wars), maybe I could have added a little alcohol to it and made myself a really nice drink which I could have enjoyed over a period of time, but now it's too late." Because I really want(ed) TNA to succeed and am tremendoulsy disappointed with their freefall, that's why my skepticism and cynicism creeps into my TNA posts. I am critical of TNA because they had so much promise to develop into a great second choice to the WWE, rather than trying to be a replacement of them or competitor for them, but they're pissing it away with poorly thought out ideas like EV2.0.

And aren't their ratings rising simply because they plummeted so far over the course of 2010, and now are rising just to get themselves back to where they were before Jan. 04? Didn't you just tell me that last week they drew a 1.2 rating? Weren't they dointg that, or at least close to it, in the pre-Hogan and early Hogan days? I really don't see the numbers of people watching the TNA product rising. Sure 1.6 milloin seems like a big number, but in relevant terms, it really is not.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

With regards to TNA, I may be a little "glass is half empty," but it's more like "I'm really sorry that my glass is half empty. If only I had gone more slowly and been more patient, rather than gulping it all down all at once (like Jan 04 and the new Monday Night Wars), maybe I could have added a little alcohol to it and made myself a really nice drink which I could have enjoyed over a period of time, but now it's too late." Because I really want(ed) TNA to succeed and am tremendoulsy disappointed with their freefall, that's why my skepticism and cynicism creeps into my TNA posts. I am critical of TNA because they had so much promise to develop into a great second choice to the WWE, rather than trying to be a replacement of them or competitor for them, but they're pissing it away with poorly thought out ideas like EV2.0.

And aren't their ratings rising simply because they plummeted so far over the course of 2010, and now are rising just to get themselves back to where they were before Jan. 04? Didn't you just tell me that last week they drew a 1.2 rating? Weren't they dointg that, or at least close to it, in the pre-Hogan and early Hogan days? I really don't see the numbers of people watching the TNA product rising. Sure 1.6 milloin seems like a big number, but in relevant terms, it really is not.

Relative terms, I think is what you meant to say, and relative to what – the WWE? Obviously TNA pales in comparison to the WWE, as the WWE's had 20+ years to build a legacy and lineage that's become a household name – they also grew during one of the biggest industry booming eras in pro-wrestling history. You'd be comparing apples to oranges again in that case.

If you're talking about relative to TNA, or TNA's own history, 1.6 million is actually an increase in their viewership.

 

[MisterRob]

Relative terms, I think is what you meant to say, and relative to what – the WWE? Obviously TNA pales in comparison to the WWE, as the WWE's had 20+ years to build a legacy and lineage that's become a household name – they also grew during one of the biggest industry booming eras in pro-wrestling history. You'd be comparing apples to oranges again in that case.

If you're talking about relative to TNA, or TNA's own history, 1.6 million is actually an increase in their viewership.

TNA was doing 1.2s and 1.3s consistently years ago. Don't start claiming TNA is increasing their viewership as if it's something ground breaking or some great success for them. They lost TNA loyalists and lost portions of their audience after Hogan/Bischoff joined the company and the direction forced many TNA fans to stop watching.

The thing you and others seem to be missing is the fact that the audience TNA is trying to grab hold of and draw in is actually the wrong audience they want. There's a reason ECW segregated itself because of the product they were putting out. There's a reason ECW could never break out and go beyond the point they reached. There's a reason ECW couldn't compete with WWE and WCW, and a lot of it was because they only appealed to a small segment of the overall audience and any other fans were in fact turned off by the product they were offering because it wasn't a product that offered something to everyone's tastes.

Now, TNA may not be as bad as ECW was in that way, but the product they're offering and the new direction they're endorsing right now does not have mass appeal. The days of hardcore and 'attitude' being edgy and unique, therefore drawing in a larger audience, is over. TNA can't do anything now that everyone hasn't seen a thousand times before and the hardcore style is old and outdated.

And you're also closed minded by dismissing hatehabsforever's argument before. TNA could be gaining an influx of viewership from old ECW fans and fans looking to see one last glimpse of nostalgia. That influx of those fans could actually cover up the fact TNA, as weeks go by, could actually be turning off parts of their previous fan base with what they're focusing on now every Impact (just as TNA did following January 4th). Therefore, when the whole ECW thing is over and if (and I suspect when) those short term fans all leave again because they aren't interested in what TNA's going back to, that drop in audience might be even more because it'll then uncover the former TNA audience that they may have lost part of, too.

TNA is incredibly short sighted, that's always been their problem.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

TNA was doing 1.2s and 1.3s consistently years ago. Don't start claiming TNA is increasing their viewership as if it's something ground breaking or some great success for them. They lost TNA loyalists and lost portions of their audience after Hogan/Bischoff joined the company and the direction forced many TNA fans to stop watching.

Uh, no –*TNA was doing .8's and .9's on SpikeTV, and rose to just about a 1.1 around the latter half of 2009. The 1.2/1.3 range they're at right now is actually an increase in their viewership since the dip they had in the early 2nd quarter of 2010.

The thing you and others seem to be missing is the fact that the audience TNA is trying to grab hold of and draw in is actually the wrong audience they want. There's a reason ECW segregated itself because of the product they were putting out. There's a reason ECW could never break out and go beyond the point they reached. There's a reason ECW couldn't compete with WWE and WCW, and a lot of it was because they only appealed to a small segment of the overall audience and any other fans were in fact turned off by the product they were offering because it wasn't a product that offered something to everyone's tastes.

Yeah, and? I'm not opting for a Hardcore division, or that TNA go "extreme" – just that they invoke the ECW name momentarily to try and bring some of those old school fans back.

Now, TNA may not be as bad as ECW was in that way, but the product they're offering and the new direction they're endorsing right now does not have mass appeal. The days of hardcore and 'attitude' being edgy and unique, therefore drawing in a larger audience, is over. TNA can't do anything now that everyone hasn't seen a thousand times before and the hardcore style is old and outdated.

1.6 million disagree with you, and please don't rebut that with some type of comparison to the WWE. I've already explained why the WWE has the fanbase it has, and it has nothing to do with the product it puts out right now. They could open up a circus division and they'll still pull 3's, because their name sells, not their product.

And you're also closed minded by dismissing hatehabsforever's argument before. TNA could be gaining an influx of viewership from old ECW fans and fans looking to see one last glimpse of nostalgia. That influx of those fans could actually cover up the fact TNA, as weeks go by, could actually be turning off parts of their previous fan base with what they're focusing on now every Impact (just as TNA did following January 4th). Therefore, when the whole ECW thing is over and if (and I suspect when) those short term fans all leave again because they aren't interested in what TNA's going back to, that drop in audience might be even more because it'll then uncover the former TNA audience that they may have lost part of, too.

TNA is incredibly short sighted, that's always been their problem.

Time will tell.