Could Jeff Hardy's Heel Turn Have Been Better

[Alex]

More specifically could it have been better if Hogan and Bischoff hadn't been at the forfront of Immortal.

Now I know people are going to say Jeff Hardy's heel turn sucked yada yada, but I personally thought it was decent. He had a good heel look and he did some adequate heel promos.

Now could it have been better if he was the leader of Immortal with Bischoff and Hogan as the advisors???

Personally, yes I think so. Hardy's promo ability isn't great and Hogan and Bischoff could help hide that. I think it would've been better if he commanded the others of Immortal rather than Hogan and Bischoff.

I know it's been brought up before but I thought his heel run could've been akin to Raven and his flock to some degree.

 

[DethMetal]

Now could it have been better if he was the leader of Immortal with Bischoff and Hogan as the advisors???

"I have sipped from the fountain of youth, the holy cup of Hulkamania, therefore I am, and forever will be, Immortal."

This may have been the coolest sentence that Jeff Hardy has ever said in a promo. To answer this question, I'm leaning towards yes. It would've been kind of cool to see Hardy be the main kingpin of Immortal, with Hogan and Bischoff as the men behind the scenes. I think that Jeff leading Immortal could've been great and really would've synched his heel turn, rather than him being the main soldier at the front. I think the Victory Road situation really screwed things up for Jeff Hardy, and I wonder what things would be like today if he never went away for a while; would he still be a heel? Would he have beaten Sting at Victory Road? What else could he have done?

Jeff Hardy as a heel was quite interesting to see, and I do believe that his heel turn could have been better. All in all, I feel that Jeff Hardy as a heel was an unfinished chapter in his career. If I could sum up Jeff Hardy's heel phase in one word, it would be "incomplete".

 

[SaveUsCMPunk]

I thought Jeff Hardy's heel turn was fine. A lot of internet wrestling fans just like to hate on TNA/IW for stupid reasons (Yes, TNA makes mistakes, but WWE isn't perfect either.) and hate on the Hardys because of Jeff's past substance problems and Matt's "antics" over the last few years. I've never been a huge fan of either Hardy but I was never one of those people that was like "I hate Meth and Fat Hardy! They suck! Get their asses off of TV!"

Unfortunately, Jeff's heel turn was cut way short because of his (hopefully) past problems. (Five months or so.) When I think of his heel turn, a few things stand out:

1) His great heel theme.

2) His botched chair shot to Mr. Anderson and the promo he gave afterwards to Mr. Anderson about "forgiveness."

3) The World title he introduced and his program with Mr. Anderson. (Anderson's reign was way too short, BTW.)

4) The match with Sting.

Could his heel run have been better? Sure. If Hogan and Bischoff took a backseat to him, he could've gotten more mic time to get his heel persona over. It was what it was.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Hogan & Bischoff at the forefront of Immortal was, at the very least, a major hindurance for Hardy's heel turn. Immortal was primarily filled with guys who were low level scrubs & thugs, and that's exactly what Jeff Hardy came across like in my eyes. Hogan & Bischoff were at the center of things with their sometimes 25-30 minute promo segments in which they said basically the same thing they always did. You know the "We're Immortal, we rule the world, blah blah blah" while Hardy mostly just stood around with the rest of the drones. The only difference was that Hardy happened to be carrying a title draped over his shoulder.

Another thing that affected Hardy is the fact that, among big stars, he might be the worst on the mic I can recall. Hardy's promo work is abysmal, there's just no other way to put it. The first time he called himself "the Anti-Christ of Professional Wrestling", I burst out laughing. I thought it was absolutely ridiculous due in large part because Hardy just didn't have it. When I think of someone who calls themselves an "Anti-Christ", I think of someone that might be some sort of sadistic serial killer/rapist, not some 30+ year old goth/emo kid wearing strange clothes and his face covered with paint.

To me, it wasn't just Hogan & Bischoff being at the forefront of everything. It wasn't just Hardy's lackluster mic skills. It wasn't just that Hardy's heel character was ridiculous. It also had to do with the fact that the guy was probably high as a kite much of the time and that it was fairly obvious. You could see it in the way Hardy looked, the way he moved, his matches were a pale shadow of what they once were. Everything about the heel turn, including all the factors surrounding it both within the company and with Hardy's personal life, was just off.

 

[willross]

2 things needed to be done differently and Jeff Hardys heel turn would of been a success. I had a huge interest in the turn and it was the usual ONE thing that dragged me to watch TNA TV.

1) Jeff Hardys drug addiction. Had Jeff been a more reliable person, he would have been able to sustain his run and they wouldnt have had to call all the audibles they did.

2) His early loss of the title. He needed to be built up for months, probably the full year. Have him drop the belt at Slammiversary or BFG to Roode, Angle, Styles, or Anderson. They needed to latch on to a face they wanted to build, let him run through Immortal to get to Hardy until he eventually took the belt from him

I feel if those 2 circumstances were different than Jeff Hardy would of been a top heel in not only TNA but the business in general. He had a huge potential with the biggest name in history pushing him but too many mistakes were made early by first the Office and then by Jeff (which made it irreparable)

 

[ヒュー　G.　レックション]

It still would've sunk because Hardy would've still messed up with the drugs. However I will say Hardy as a heel I really enjoyed. I didn't like Hardy at all at that point so him turning heel gave me even more reason to dislike him and so he made a great villain haha. His promos were very good with such golden quotes as, "Overrated my ass!" and, "I did not sell out, I SOLD IN!"

Just a shame he was a fatass at this point and was putting on bad matches.

 

[ABMorales787]

The first major flaw to Hardy's heel turn was how unreliable he was. The incidents at Final Resolution, Genesis and finally Victory Road showed that greatly. Secondly, it's JEFF HARDY. He is certainly not the leader type. Even when he was a heel, he was soft-spoken and secluded. Anyone with slight aggression would have been seen as a better leader. Even if Bully Ray would've joined with Hardy around, there's no way that he'd stay under Hardy. Hardy alone would probably work better as a heel.

 

[Alex]

Secondly, it's JEFF HARDY. He is certainly not the leader type. Even when he was a heel, he was soft-spoken and secluded. Anyone with slight aggression would have been seen as a better leader. Even if Bully Ray would've joined with Hardy around, there's no way that he'd stay under Hardy. Hardy alone would probably work better as a heel.

So would you say he would have had a better shot as a heel character doing the Sting from the rafters type thing rather than a Raven style character with group behind him??

 

[JJYanks121]

The run would have been a much bigger success if Jeff Hardy had no creative input in his character.

What I mean is, Jeff was a bad guy but he was still "out there". People were always attracted to that about him, from the facepaint to the weird stuff he likes. To be an effective and great heel, what he should have done is stripped that all away. Imagine a Jeff Hardy with short hair, suits, no makeup, and a boring wrestling style. Tell me people wouldn't hate that! Had he stripped himself of everything people liked about him and justified himself by his success, it could have been great. Corporate Jeff Hardy? Now THAT is a heel.

The problem was, the moment he came out looking weird but "bad", I knew it would fail. He didn't compromise enough of himself to be hated. Had he done that, it would have been great.

 

[MWRedskins]

Jeff Hardy's heel turn could've been better if he did some things
1) stayed out of trouble-- getting in trouble was what really killed the turn and ruined what i thought was a great turn. his promos were better, he was putting on nice matches and he got people to hate him
2) if they didnt have him drop the title too soon. losing to Anderson didnt help, now it's only a small problem i had with it, but it was still a problem. he should've kept it and had a long feud with Anderson where in the end, Anderson would've taken the title, but they didnt as Sting returned and of course, Hardy's addiction came up and had him leave TNA for a while.

 

[dman1373]

i think so. I mean when jeff first started cutting heel promos, i thought they were actually good. I was very surprised. They werent the best, but his image that he was developing was working even better. The problem with his heel turn was the players. It was the same players wcw had in 1996, and other non stars. Just look, it was immortal, and fortune who were just the nwo and four horseman. If you would have had the faction tailor made for him then it could have worked alot better.

 

[Zeven_Zion]

No, Jeff Hardy's heel turn was the epitome of perfection. Never before has something been done in such a flawless manner in human history. Humans' inherit imperfections were rendered obsolete that night and showed perhaps an evolutionary pattern that could herald the coming of a new era in human history - one filled with flawless occasions such as Jeff 'Nero' Hardy's heel turn.


... of course it could've been done better. Everything can be done better. Even the best things ever done can be done better.

For one thing, they could've held up a sign that didn't have typos on it.

 

[SacredMesa]

What I mean is, Jeff was a bad guy but he was still "out there". People were always attracted to that about him, from the facepaint to the weird stuff he likes. To be an effective and great heel, what he should have done is stripped that all away. Imagine a Jeff Hardy with short hair, suits, no makeup, and a boring wrestling style. Tell me people wouldn't hate that! Had he stripped himself of everything people liked about him and justified himself by his success, it could have been great. Corporate Jeff Hardy? Now THAT is a heel.

The problem was, the moment he came out looking weird but "bad", I knew it would fail. He didn't compromise enough of himself to be hated. Had he done that, it would have been great.

This I disagree agree with. People want to think that in order to change between face and heel you have to completely change your character and that's been disproven by people like Triple H and Kurt Angle. Both of them remained reletively the same between face and heel turns with the changes being their targets, reasons, and treatment of the fans. Triple H was still The Game and the Cerebral Assassin, while Kurt Angle remained the Olympic Hero who flaunted his gold metals. Sure they might of done a few gimik comedy bits here and there as promos allowed but they also had some comedy bits as heels, remember Kurt Angle singing his parody of HBKs theme music with Sherry?

Thats the thing in order to be a successful heel you don't have to change who you are mearly tweak your character to suit. The thing is though some people simply can't be heels for one reason or another. Fans will never boo Sting or the Undertaker they respect, love and appreciate them way to much at this point and trying to turn them heel would make no sense. Jeff Hardy is not there so that wouldn't limit him on being a heel. What DOES limit him on being a heel is currently the only thing people cheer about him is his in ring style, which is the only style he can do, and his look. He has zero promo ability which is a huge nessessity for a heel. A face can get by with a few sound bites while the heels carries a promo, we've seen that several times in wrestling.

Hardy simply doesn't have that promo ability that is needed to be a heel, and no changing of his appearance or in ring style is going to fix that. All that said the only way I see a heel Jeff Hardy working would be with a mouth piece of some kind and he is to far into his career to be able to depend on that. You can't put a mouth piece of an established guy they have to be able to talk and Hardy simply can't.

 

[Spinebreaker]

I agree with Mesa there... Hardy's average (at best) in the ring. He's poor on mic. Heels need to be awesome on the mic, or never speak at all.

Hardy is too over to be a convincing heel. Unless he just changed the look, and part of the look was to never talk, that might enable him to pull it off.

 

[Zeven_Zion]

This I disagree agree with. People want to think that in order to change between face and heel you have to completely change your character and that's been disproven by people like Triple H and Kurt Angle. Both of them remained reletively the same between face and heel turns with the changes being their targets, reasons, and treatment of the fans. Triple H was still The Game and the Cerebral Assassin, while Kurt Angle remained the Olympic Hero who flaunted his gold metals. Sure they might of done a few gimik comedy bits here and there as promos allowed but they also had some comedy bits as heels, remember Kurt Angle singing his parody of HBKs theme music with Sherry?

Thats the thing in order to be a successful heel you don't have to change who you are mearly tweak your character to suit. The thing is though some people simply can't be heels for one reason or another. Fans will never boo Sting or the Undertaker they respect, love and appreciate them way to much at this point and trying to turn them heel would make no sense. Jeff Hardy is not there so that wouldn't limit him on being a heel. What DOES limit him on being a heel is currently the only thing people cheer about him is his in ring style, which is the only style he can do, and his look. He has zero promo ability which is a huge nessessity for a heel. A face can get by with a few sound bites while the heels carries a promo, we've seen that several times in wrestling.

Hardy simply doesn't have that promo ability that is needed to be a heel, and no changing of his appearance or in ring style is going to fix that. All that said the only way I see a heel Jeff Hardy working would be with a mouth piece of some kind and he is to far into his career to be able to depend on that. You can't put a mouth piece of an established guy they have to be able to talk and Hardy simply can't.

I actually agree with JJYanks.

The whole problem with heel Hardy was the fact that instead of us hating him, I think a lot of us actually liked him more. To me - the guy was cool. Came down with a cigarette in his mouth, he looked like Billy Idol and Raven had a fuck session, he was evil and didn't give a shit. I mean, FUCK, Hardy was the boss. Even his gibberish was cool. Don't say his mic skills sucked then if Bane can go a whole movie talking through a plastic crab and bleeding our ears out and STILL remain a badass then Hardy can as well.

The issue here is that THAT Antichrist should've been a face. Why? Because everything we hated about Jeff Hardy (cheesy, goodie two shoes, makin' 13 years old girls wet) was stripped off of him and replaced with cool shit. The problem is that while it WAS different, it was still "cool" different. He was still Jeff Hardy, despite everything else.

To make a Hardy heel turn work you need to strip him off this insane, innate coolness he has. Shave that beard, cut that hair short, wear normal clothes (no suits anymore or Jericho will start suing people) and just be a fucking asshole to your fans and everyone else. That is IT. The rest will be told by the storylines you're in.

And yes, I agree, other people didn't have to alter their personas in order to be heels but we've been exposed to Jeff Hardy long enough to know that the guy is not any "other wrestler". He's a fucking weirdo. That's his thing. That's why kids like him. The colors and how weird he is. Strip those off and he has no likeability factor any longer. It will take time but it'll wash off.

Plus, the fact that this is not how it's "supposed" to be is even better. Here's the fresh thing you've been bitching about.

Fact is, the heel turn did sort of work. People booed him. However for me personally - this is what Hardy should've been as a face. This is what TNA Jeff Hardy should be right now. He was cool, he felt contemporary and modern.

That seems to be a trend these days. Take the cheesy things of old (Superman, Batman, Spider-man for example) and make them realistic, gritty, darker and cool. That's what Antichrist Hardy was. What TNA did, essentially, was take Heath Ledger's Joker and turn him into Cesar Romero's joker.

Plain and simple, I liked the character, I liked the twist, I liked the new guy I saw on my screen. Just didn't like his alignment. Had he dumped Immortal eventually under the premise that they showed him a side of himself he's never been aware of, thus decided to dump them but keep this new rougher side (which makes him even more badass), resulting in a new face Hardy I'd be thrilled with it.

 

[JJYanks121]

I actually agree with JJYanks.

The whole problem with heel Hardy was the fact that instead of us hating him, I think a lot of us actually liked him more. To me - the guy was cool. Came down with a cigarette in his mouth, he looked like Billy Idol and Raven had a fuck session, he was evil and didn't give a shit. I mean, FUCK, Hardy was the boss. Even his gibberish was cool. Don't say his mic skills sucked then if Bane can go a whole movie talking through a plastic crab and bleeding our ears out and STILL remain a badass then Hardy can as well.

The issue here is that THAT Antichrist should've been a face. Why? Because everything we hated about Jeff Hardy (cheesy, goodie two shoes, makin' 13 years old girls wet) was stripped off of him and replaced with cool shit. The problem is that while it WAS different, it was still "cool" different. He was still Jeff Hardy, despite everything else.

To make a Hardy heel turn work you need to strip him off this insane, innate coolness he has. Shave that beard, cut that hair short, wear normal clothes (no suits anymore or Jericho will start suing people) and just be a fucking asshole to your fans and everyone else. That is IT. The rest will be told by the storylines you're in.

And yes, I agree, other people didn't have to alter their personas in order to be heels but we've been exposed to Jeff Hardy long enough to know that the guy is not any "other wrestler". He's a fucking weirdo. That's his thing. That's why kids like him. The colors and how weird he is. Strip those off and he has no likeability factor any longer. It will take time but it'll wash off.

Plus, the fact that this is not how it's "supposed" to be is even better. Here's the fresh thing you've been bitching about.

Fact is, the heel turn did sort of work. People booed him. However for me personally - this is what Hardy should've been as a face. This is what TNA Jeff Hardy should be right now. He was cool, he felt contemporary and modern.

That seems to be a trend these days. Take the cheesy things of old (Superman, Batman, Spider-man for example) and make them realistic, gritty, darker and cool. That's what Antichrist Hardy was. What TNA did, essentially, was take Heath Ledger's Joker and turn him into Cesar Romero's joker.

Plain and simple, I liked the character, I liked the twist, I liked the new guy I saw on my screen. Just didn't like his alignment. Had he dumped Immortal eventually under the premise that they showed him a side of himself he's never been aware of, thus decided to dump them but keep this new rougher side (which makes him even more badass), resulting in a new face Hardy I'd be thrilled with it.

Holy crap we agreed! Man, the world must actually be ending!

But seriously, what that other poster didn't seem to get is that I wasn't suggesting that ALL heels need to do the same thing to be heels. I was suggesting that Jeff Hardy was weird and when he became bad became weirder. People like Jeff's weirdness. To be a better heel, he needed to strip himself of......well, himself. Be something he's not and have a good explanation as to why (going corporate due to being screwed over too many times). This would get people to hate him because people just love Jeff for who he is. That's why I think it would work for him.

I must also correct this other poster. When Triple H turned face in 1998, he had altered his snob persona to the DX persona. That fun, rule-breaking jokester character lasted until the following Wrestlemania when he turned heel. From there, he became a man completely self involved and obsessed with success. His character completely changed as he probably didn't make any jokes for a year or more. To say he stayed the same is crazy. Now, did people grow to love "Evolution" Triple H to the point where he sort of just evolved into a veteran babyface? Sure. Jeff Hardy isn't at that status yet plus we're talking about his 1st heel turn ever (well, 2nd if you count 2 weeks in WWE in like 2002).

Think of this like the Right to Censor. Everyone loved Val Venis and the Godfather for their womanizing ways right? Well, put them in ties and have them forget about women and they are hated. Jeff Hardy is that time 100. People love him unequivocally for who he is. Take that away and make him proud of taking that away and becoming a "changed man" and you have a guy to hate.

 

[Spinebreaker]

One thing that could work, Drop the high spots.

Hardy comes out in normal clothes, ignores the fans and then proceesto wrestle technical matches. No TOF, no Swanton. Actively avoiding matches with tables and ladders...