Cornette's Latest

[X]

WWE make most of their money off old stuff(Macho Man dvds,and etc.) and international shows(because no other promotion can afford to travel to other countries or have tv shows to compete).

Old stuff? Macho Man DVDs? Are you joking me?

The overwhelming majority of the WWE's income comes from ticket sales and PPV's. Where are you getting your information from?

If other countries was exposed to other wrestling WWE would have a problem.

Mexico and Japan have literally HUNDREDS of wrestling promotions. And yet the WWE stills sells out every time they go to those countries.

WWE convince(buy their way) Televisa to move AAA timeslot, 2 months later AAA was beating WWE so bad in the ratings in Mexico, Televisa move WWE timeslot and gave it back to AAA. And yes, I do believe if AAA was on Univision(or a major cable network) they would beat Raw in the ratings on a weekly basis. The only way TNA even got shows over sea's because they promoting stars from the 90's. ROH don't have the luxury to do that.

Right, I'm officially done caring about what you think, because you have NO IDEA of what you're talking about.

You're trying to tell me that a Spanish wrestling show with little to no stars that an American audience cares about is going to beat out RAW, the most popular wrestling program in the history of the wrestling industry?

Good luck trying to convince people of that, because most of them will laugh at you, and for good reason. That's just absurd. The majority of wrestling fans love guys like John Cena, and don't give a flying fuck about luchadors.

WWE knows in 3-5 years things will get worse that's why they trying everything in the book to see what works like doing a commercial free Raw. That's why the title changing hands more times than Russo booking in WCW.

Just do us all a favor and please stop posting in this thread. Your foolish opinions (which hold absolutely no basis in fact, by the way) are taking away from actual intelligent conversation that could be taking place.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

So do you think wrestling is going in a good direction? Are you content with Cena,Edge,Punk,Morrison,Real World guy, and Orton being on top of the business for the next 10 years with HHH becoming a 30 times World champion by time he retire?

and that stuff will be different if fuckin heels and faces dont go to the same bars? If we dont use the terms we use? What the hell does this even have to do with anything Cornette said? Nothing

Is you happy with the tv product to the point you will buy every(or the majority of) ppvs,every dvd,every magazine? u

yes, and yes I do, and yes I do.

and none of that has fuck to do with wrestlers hanging out together, and me knowing a few buisness terms.

 

[Tastycles]

Dear lord, what an abysmal article. The vast majority of it is just bitching about semantics. "It used to be a gimmick, now it's a character." What does that even mean, Jim? Their gimmick used to about the way they acted? Isn't that what a character is? The words have just changed. It's just what happens in language. As for wrestlers just playing to their legitimate characters, that's bullshit too. Until about 20 years ago, most heels were simply cold war relics? Exactly what part of Minnesota born Nelson Scott Simpson's real life personality was of a communist Russian who hated America? Where are they turning the volume up there? That is without a doubt a wrestling character.

As for wrestlers picking their own characters, it worked sometimes, but it didn't stop us getting shite then did it. The people in creative these days are professional writers, and therefore more likely to come up with better characters. The Undertaker, Mankind and Kane all had given characters, and have all done pretty well for themselves. Would Kane still be around if he had been Big Glenn Jacobs? Would he fuck.

Literally nobody over the age of 12 has believed wrestling to be real at any point in Cornette's career, so I'm not sure how he thinks that use of the term "in the back" or whatever has changed anything. Cornette appears to be missing the point of wrestling. In the 1980s, there was zbout an hour a week of televised wrestling, and the other days were filled with running the exact same show in a new town. Wrestlers could work off the cuff, because there wasn't much to need to say. Nowadays, there is a lot of TV time, and wrestlers can't be expected to think of soething to say, to work out a fresh and original match and to actually wrestle said match, to assume them able to do so is ridiculous.

The fact that he has the audacity to say old school wrestling didn't need fixing is unbelievable. Where is old school wrestling now? AWA was dying on its arse 20 years ago, and WCW was heading the same way till Bischoff came along. Meanwhile, WWE went from strength to strength, and there's no reason for this to be the case except the fact that that way is better.

Does Jim Cornette really think that in an era of satellite television and internet that anybody who isn't a die hard fan would part with money to go to a house show? Of course not. Not to mention the strain on the wrestlerfs if they still had to tour like that.

The idea that heels and faces slept in different hotels etc just makes wrestling look even more fake. In boxing, the combatant don't fight on sight, they are civil, and let their in ring business do the talking. All sports do this, except wrestling. The players of opposing teams fraternise, because it is just a sport. You can't criticise wrestling for appearing phoney and then have a fat bloke in polka dots and a rich man have an argument that leads to organised combat.

Wrestling hit the big time in it's life at three points. Firstly when Thesz was around and there weren't storylines, and the matches looked like shoot wrestling. Then you have the next point when you have Hulk Hogan, who acts in such a ridiculous fashion with hulking up etc. that there isn't a chance he isn't faking it, and finally in the attitude era when the fourth wall was broken and you had worked shoots etc. When wrestling knows what it is, that's when it's at its best, not when there are people having pretend fights that require them to be seperate at all times, but make them unwilling to break rules in an organised match. The whole thing's obviously fake, Jim.

The combination of Vince McMahon wanting to reinvent the wheel and fix what wasn't broken, and the corporate world invading wrestling has, over twenty years' time, completely changed the way people look at and talk about wrestling. Now, even people inside the business talk openly of it being a work. The terms used subliminally reflect this. Whereas before, the goal was to make wrestling as logical and realistic as possible, to get fans to believe so they would buy tickets, now the goal is to make it as wild and crazy a show as possible, to get them to watch TV for free. The new generation doesn't even know what's happened. The fans of today don't know it was ever different, and the fans of yesterday all say they "used to watch wrestling before it got all show-bizzy." No one stops to realize that even if you know wrestling is a work and how it's done, performing and presenting it like a shoot makes it a better show and a better-quality product.

This sums it up completely. Wrestling was broken in 1984. As soon as MTV took a hold people aren't going to bother to pay for house show tickets, because there's no boredom in society. Want proof? Look at WCW'a Hogan-less old style product house show attendences in the late 80s, early 90s. They were so bad Bischoff made them stop. That's what would have happened if the status quo remained. Bret Hart talks in his book about how his parents never made any money, yet Vince McMahon is a billionaire, which suggest to me at least, that his product is immensly more appealing.

The goal before wasn't to make wrestling as real as possible at all, if it was, then guys like Thesz would have still been champion in the 1980s, but there wasn't a demand for that. The goal isn't to make it weird, it's to make people watch. What's remotely controversial about John Cena? Show me the shock factor on Raw, Cornette, and I'll show you why the wrestling matters more.

As for wrestling being better when booked as a shoot. The biggest stars of the last 20 years are Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Steve Austin and The Undertaker. Tell me which of them works in a realistic style? Which of them is a believable character. Austin is close, but he's a fantasy. Nobody can really hit their boss with a chair, and nobody believes you can. Next look at who wrestled belieevably over the same period, and you get guys like Dean Malenko. I think that makes it pretty self evident who is the real draw in wrestling.

Wrestling is as fake as it can possibly be, and everyone knows it. Admitting it is Vince's greatest stroke of genius, because the audience is no longer left to feel like an idiot for watching. If the audience is "in on it", then they won't be embarrassed to be a fan, and that means they display their affinity of the product much more.

Wrestling is at its best when it is booked translucently. Too much transparency and you get the WCW clusterfuck of 99-2000, but booked in a way that's obviously fake, but without saying so is what makes sense. The proof is in the fanbase. WWF maintain and maintains this kind of style, and it's owner is a billionaire and it is one of the most recognizable brands in the world. Smokey Mountain Wrestling doesn't exist, and neither does WCW, and if that doesn't prove that the middle way is best, then I don't know what does.

 

[Scott Free]

I agree with your views on the major points, Cornette is hyping nostalgia to a large degree without taking into account reality, I still respect his opinion even if I don't agree. However, this statement needs to be examined further.

As for wrestlers picking their own characters, it worked sometimes, but it didn't stop us getting shite then did it. The people in creative these days are professional writers, and therefore more likely to come up with better characters. The Undertaker, Mankind and Kane all had given characters, and have all done pretty well for themselves. Would Kane still be around if he had been Big Glenn Jacobs? Would he fuck.

Are the people in creative these days professional writers ? I can agree that they get paid to write and thus are "professional writers" technically, but from the looks of their work, I have my doubts about their creativity and talent. None of the angles being done today are unique or in any way groundbreaking, in fact, they seem simply rehashes of old material done by non writers years ago. You'd figure with real creative professional writers you'd get better, but I don't see it, in fact, Chris Jericho adlibs better promos than what the WWE "Creative" would have him do. So, it seems that, while the "Creative Dept." is formed by supposedly professional writers, the wrestlers themselves could do the same job better or at least, at the same low level. This isn't just the WWE either, TNA has tons of problems as well. I say if you're going to hire professional writers, then get REAL professional writers, imagine a storyline for the Undertaker writen by Stephen King, now THAT I'd pay to see. But today's version of "professional writers" leaves a lot to be desired, except for Vince Russo, I can't even name one of these so-called "writers", and as for Russo...well, let's just say if he set the standards, we're in trouble. I think Cornette is right about not needing an entire "Creative Department" and the cost it entails to basically come up with the same stuff they did years ago and better.

Peace out.

 

[Tastycles]

Are the people in creative these days professional writers ? I can agree that they get paid to write and thus are "professional writers" technically, but from the looks of their work, I have my doubts about their creativity and talent.

Well yes, the vast majority of them used to write for TV shows before, making them professional writers. You may think that it isnt very creative, but think of this. WWE Wrestling has given us 6 hours of programming a week since 1999, I challenge anybody to write anything without repeating itself. There's no other entertainment that gives this muh programming, butcompare it to soap operas. Soap opera storylines are beyond the ridiculous, because they're out of ideas for their two hours a week of episodes. It's even more challenging and restrictive when you realise that every storyline has to end in a fight somewhere down the line.

None of the angles being done today are unique or in any way groundbreaking, in fact, they seem simply rehashes of old material done by non writers years ago.

In all honesty, where could they go? They've basically got incest as a taboo, and they've done everything else. The story of wrest ling is, and will always be, two guysd fall out over something and have a fight, with that restriction, you are limited into what you can do. I will say this though, I have been suprised by the outcomes of wrestling more this year than I was shocked by the "groundbreaking" necrophilia and Mae Young angles.

You'd figure with real creative professional writers you'd get better, but I don't see it, in fact, Chris Jericho adlibs better promos than what the WWE "Creative" would have him do. So, it seems that, while the "Creative Dept." is formed by supposedly professional writers, the wrestlers themselves could do the same job better or at least, at the same low level.

Because, fundamentally, a wrestler knows their own limits. For every guy like Jericho, there is 10 like Baista, who struggles with what he is given, let alone writing his own. You know who's definitely made more money for the company? Batista. Wrestlers who write their own are in short supply, and it is of vital importance that people do the right thing. The days of feuds being about wrestling are gone, and spouting crap at Mean Gene just wouldn't ork today.

This isn't just the WWE either, TNA has tons of problems as well. I say if you're going to hire professional writers, then get REAL professional writers, imagine a storyline for the Undertaker writen by Stephen King, now THAT I'd pay to see.

Your living on a cloud if you think this is viable. If someone is a top writer, they aren't going to work in wrestling, a fact of life. The fact that they persuaded Freddy Prinze jr is frankly unbelievable.

But today's version of "professional writers" leaves a lot to be desired, except for Vince Russo, I can't even name one of these so-called "writers", and as for Russo...well, let's just say if he set the standards, we're in trouble. I think Cornette is right about not needing an entire "Creative Department" and the cost it entails to basically come up with the same stuff they did years ago and better.

The storylines from years ago are simplistic and couldn't be done now. There are too many shows for a slow build, today we'd be lucky if the megapowers reached Summerslam, let alne the next WrestleMania. It isn't the quality of the product that the creavtive team is there to affect, it is the quantity.

That being said, I think you are holding them in a bad light. After all, it was a creative department that came up with the Austin v McMahon feud, and another that came up with the nWo. Those are some pretty gripping storylines, and far better than anything at all from the 1980s.

Peace out.[/QUOTE]

 

[Real Lucha Guy]

I think the business(mainstream US,Japan and independent) is all screwed up and you don't have to agree with Cornette to come up with that conclusion.

I haven't watch a full WWE and TNA show in a very long time. Usually I watch in bits and parts but it's painful to watch current wrestling. I used to watch the so called "Dark Period" in 93-95 with no problems and never gotten to the point where I skip shows.

I just think there too much going on and nobody is bringing the goods. WWE got too many shows in primetime(3 of those shows ratings are on WWE LIVEWIRE level btw). Superstars/ECW/Smackdown ratings combined=Raw rating and Raw ratings is not that great either. Raw is the HHH and Orton show(how many times we seen that, Rock vs. Austin didn't last that long). TNA Impact is so BUSH LEAGUE. ROH is on a channel I don't have. People always praising ECW,Superstars and Smackdown but I found those shows to be extremely boring.

 

[X]

I think the business(mainstream US,Japan and independent) is all screwed up and you don't have to agree with Cornette to come up with that conclusion.

That's another load of bullshit from you. How exactly is the business screwed up? Is it the record profits that the WWE is pulling in? Is it the fact that even TNA is pulling in a profit now? Japanese wrestling has, and will always be huge in Japan, and nothing will ever deter that.

Seriously, why do you seem to think that your opinion is the gospel? The business is doing perfectly fine.

I haven't watch a full WWE and TNA show in a very long time. Usually I watch in bits and parts but it's painful to watch current wrestling. I used to watch the so called "Dark Period" in 93-95 with no problems and never gotten to the point where I skip shows.

You're trying to tell me that shit like the The Minotaur is better then the current wrestling product?

 

[Scott Free]

Well yes, the vast majority of them used to write for TV shows before, making them professional writers. You may think that it isnt very creative, but think of this. WWE Wrestling has given us 6 hours of programming a week since 1999, I challenge anybody to write anything without repeating itself. There's no other entertainment that gives this muh programming, butcompare it to soap operas. Soap opera storylines are beyond the ridiculous, because they're out of ideas for their two hours a week of episodes. It's even more challenging and restrictive when you realise that every storyline has to end in a fight somewhere down the line.

That's what Cornette seems to be most vocal about, it's all about filling the time, not building up the fight. True, they manage to put the main events over somewhat, but after all is said and done, the time spent on fillers is disproportionate compared to the actual fight. I suppose I'm of the old timer belief that the story should be told DURING the match and not before and after with badly acted and hack written vignettes, which aren't all that far away from soap opera quality, but I suppose that's why I seem to agree with most of Cornette's views, although I find him hypocritical when the company he works for is just as guilty as the one he criticises.

In all honesty, where could they go? They've basically got incest as a taboo, and they've done everything else. The story of wrest ling is, and will always be, two guysd fall out over something and have a fight, with that restriction, you are limited into what you can do. I will say this though, I have been suprised by the outcomes of wrestling more this year than I was shocked by the "groundbreaking" necrophilia and Mae Young angles.

Please let me explain that by groundbreaking, I didn't mean shock value or controversial. What would represent groundbreaking is a new direction or angle that's presented in a fresh new way that makes it different. One example would be the Austin/McMahon feud, where Vince came out as the owner of the company rather than just an announcer, broke kayfabe and was a groundbreaker.

Because, fundamentally, a wrestler knows their own limits. For every guy like Jericho, there is 10 like Baista, who struggles with what he is given, let alone writing his own. You know who's definitely made more money for the company? Batista. Wrestlers who write their own are in short supply, and it is of vital importance that people do the right thing. The days of feuds being about wrestling are gone, and spouting crap at Mean Gene just wouldn't ork today.

Agree. You have to help those that need it, but stay out of the way of those that don't. I found the whole Jericho/Mysterio feud very good, and I'm betting it was all due to Jericho and Rey's input, because most of the story was told IN the ring with wrestling.

Your living on a cloud if you think this is viable. If someone is a top writer, they aren't going to work in wrestling, a fact of life. The fact that they persuaded Freddy Prinze jr is frankly unbelievable.

Maybe, then again, if they got Freddy, they could get King, not as a permanent staff writer , but as a writer for one storyline that leads to Wrestlemania as a payoff. Mind you, if the WWE is entertainment, what's to stop them from having name writers come up with storyline as they do in movies and TV ? Stephen King isn't going to write RAW, he's might write segments for RAW concerning one linear storyline though.

The storylines from years ago are simplistic and couldn't be done now. There are too many shows for a slow build, today we'd be lucky if the megapowers reached Summerslam, let alne the next WrestleMania. It isn't the quality of the product that the creavtive team is there to affect, it is the quantity.

Exactly, and it shows. Quantity doesn't mean quality of course.

That being said, I think you are holding them in a bad light. After all, it was a creative department that came up with the Austin v McMahon feud, and another that came up with the nWo. Those are some pretty gripping storylines, and far better than anything at all from the1980s.

Actually, Vince himself came up with the Austin angle, and it was based on the Montreal Screwjob , the NWO I'm not sure about, but the 4 Horsemen were doing that same act for years before that, in the 1980's I believe.

Peace out.

 

[LOLChrisHansen]

I think Cornette makes some great points. People go on about how wrestlers need to separate themselves from their character blah blah..and they miss the point entirely. When you look back at the really super over wrestlers, their gimmicks weren't gimmicks at all. Stone Cold Steve Austin was basically himself turned up a bit. The Rock was pretty much the way the Rock is. You don't need an outlandish gimmick. You don't need to be a cowboy..you need to be yourself.

A problem I have today in wrestling is the fact that wrestling gives me no reason to care. Look at Kofi Kingston. Look at Evan Bourne. Why should I give a shit about these guys? Kofi Kingston's entire WWE career has been filler and nothing more. Every damn match he is in means nothing. I don't care if he's athletic. He has no direction and no character. Back then, everyone on the damn show had a reason to be on there. Everyone was doing something, they all had directions and personas. Evan Bourne is just a guy they throw out there to fly for 7 minutes a week..and I'm supposed to care about him?

Draw me in, please. Give me a reason to get behind Kofi or Evan. Give me a reason to care about their matches or what they do. Oh and get a competent writing staff while you're at it. Stop recruiting people who just wrote Date my Mom on MTV last week to write Raw.

 

[mr.davidson]

Yes Cornette is still living in the old days...

However thanks to TNA still haveing guys like cornette it is producing a better show then the WWE.....

Just like when WCW was around in the 90's when the attitude era took place.. thanks to WCW producing a product much like the 80's in WWE they produced long story lines that people got into it and enjoyed it .... which made them a good challenger to WWE.. just like TNA is doing now

as it stands right now the WWE's storylines are wicked boring... I mean how many times are they going 2 have triple thread matches for the WWE Tittle??

But I think TNA produces a way better show thanks to older guys like Cornette and his experience in the bussiness..... U may not like him talking about the old days but lets face facts.... the guy knows the bussiness... and I agree with him in the fact that wrestling needs to maintain and get back to the basic storylines it use to have...

But I do get tired of him talking 2 much about the old days.....

 

[PEP3]

Tried posting this twice before. Maybe the third time will be the charm? Sadly, it's not as well written as the second time, but I'm f*cking exhausted after having to try to re-type this crap after it was deleted the first two times.

***

Generally speaking, I have to say that I agree with Cornette’s opinion here. Since WWF declared pro wrestling to be “Sports Entertainment” many years ago, bringing the predetermined endings and storylines into the open, the ‘sport’ has lost a great deal of its mystique. As a result, it’s been in a state of general decline and has shown decreases in live attendance.

For the most part, what I am hearing Cornette say in this post is that people within the industry need to act and think in a way that doesn’t further perpetuate certain perceptions of pro wrestling, even within the pro wrestling community. He’s suggesting that talking about the industry in a way causes subtle subconscious attitudes among pro wrestlers themselves, which can then be transferred on to the customers. Why on earth would anyone think this is not true?

It reminds me of the saying, “The man who thinks he’s beaten is.” Mental attitudes can easily become self-fulfilling prophecies. Acting and treating the pro wrestling industry as a sham can only increase the outward perception that it is exactly that. It seems to me that Cornette is simply calling for those within the industry to do everything within their power to act in a manner that makes the product as believable as humanly possible.

Just as a wrestler should “sell” a move inside the ring, he should take equal care to “sell” the sport outside the ring. As a result, to me it seems a no-brainer that heels/faces should not be seen together publicly. Yes, we are aware that this is not a legitimate sport, but that fact shouldn’t be rubbed in our faces either. Great effort should be given to selling the illusion.

In fact, one would think this could be related to a magic act. No magician who is worth anything is going to be forthcoming with how his routine is done, whether that’s a simple card trick, pulling a rabbit out of a hat, or sawing his assistant in half. Of course rationally we know that the woman isn’t really being cut in two, but we’re simply not sure how it’s done. And, to protect the sanctity of that illusion, most performers who have any modicum of respect for the magic industry would take every precaution to keep those details sacred and secret.

The same should be said for those within the wrestling industry. If you want to be a part of that community, you should care enough about it to take those extra steps to protect it and keep the illusion that what happens within the ring is based in truth. Do your best to allow your audiences to willingly suspend their disbelief.

Ultimately, I think it’s extremely ironic that a group of people who so frequently spend their time in a rather passionate plea for WWE to bring elements of the “Attitude Era” back to its current product crucify Cornette for his opinions on this matter. After all, by bitching that WWF would be much better if only they returned to those days of Austin and The Rock and discarded their PG format implies that most of you feel elements of those days would not only make today’s product better but still work in the current era if only someone would try them!

How, then, is it so wrong for Cornette to make a similar plea for workers to return to certain elements of a time he views as wrestling’s “golden era”? The reality is, many of the things he points out are deficient in today’s industry and could benefit the overall product if reinstated. He’s not suggesting that by taking these actions, we’ll turn back the clock, and it’ll be 1984 all over again. He’s simply saying that if even a few of these changes were made, the pro wrestling industry would be better for it.

Personally, I respect the guy’s opinion enough to give it more than a little credibility. And, to be honest, most of what he’s suggesting doesn’t seem too much to ask. The worst that could happen is we might give it a whirl and find that it actually works.