Championship Region, Fifth Round: (3) Andre the Giant vs. (4) Kurt Angle

Discussion in 'Championship Region' started by klunderbunker, Apr 20, 2017.

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Who Wins This Match?

  1. Andre the Giant

  2. Kurt Angle

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Championship Contender

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    If people paid their money to buy a ticket to see Andre in this one night best of 8 tourney because he's the attraction...

    then it's a rip off to them to job him out right away, and you just killed your town by doing it.


    Yeah beating Rock, Austin and Lesnar for the title are all damn good accomplishments. It doesn't mean he's going to beat Andre though. Because Angle DOES lose a lot too. Andre doesn't.

    History shows that it's far more likely to see Kurt Angle lose a big match than Andre the Giant. Because Kurt Angle lost A LOT more big matches than Andre the Giant ever did.

    Merchandise wasn't really much of a thing in Andre's day except near the end of it. When it did become a thing though... Andre's stuff sold.

    I'm not really getting the argument here. People came to see Andre in his day. In Angle's day, they just come to see WWE. So this is a negative for Andre?

    Question. Do you feel Lesnar spikes ratings? Because I've already argued that the way Lesnar has been booked since his return to the WWE would be the closest thing we've got to the way someone like Andre was booked in his day. To me, Lesnar brings in more viewers on top of those who are already there just to watch the WWE, and that just shows that there are people still capable of drawing over and above the brand itself.


    No Angle winning titles is not a negative, but the point still stands. For Angle to be at his peak, he needed to be champion. Andre didn't.

    Also, if you want to argue that he doesn't need to win to be a special attraction, then I think you're not understanding one of the things that made him such a special attraction.

    Like I said in another post, it actually did take more than just being big to draw in Andre's day.

    No. No. No. No. NO!

    They're both big men. Show was once booked as Andre's son. They wore the same type of gear for a bit.

    THAT'S IT!

    If the only thing Andre had going for him was his size... then you would have no clue who Andre the Giant ever was.

    Andre would not be jobbing out to every little David they wanted to put over Goliath. He wouldn't be switching back and forth from face to heel a couple times every year, and displaying different personality after personality to the point that people stopped caring.

    People cared about Andre. They wanted to see him. They went out of their way to see him.

    People have NEVER felt about the Big Show like they did about Andre the Giant. Show would even agree.
     
    #51
  2. Spidercanrana

    Spidercanrana Should've Reinstated The Fox
    Staff Member Moderator E-Fed Mod

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    "Why is his most memorable moment getting slammed by Hogan?"

    It's arguments like these that made me vote and argue for Andre. If Kurt gave us something that was more memorable, one that was talked about by non-wrestling fans, then I'd stick up for him here. But he hasn't. He doesn't have anything in his career that compares.


    And Andre was doing dropkicks and everything else in his prime. Bit of a disservice to say Big Show was more athletic.
     
    #52
  3. sikkbones

    sikkbones the root of all evil

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    Re merchandise and star power.

    Andre has a meme that predates the internet.

    Andre is an icon.

    And Andre the giant has a posse.

    Obey.
     
    #53
  4. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    You look different, Ech. Cut your hair or something?

    Mojo, this is the final night of a tournament. Andre has been pulling in cash for weeks. Andre would do the job and rightfully so.




    Business calls for more losses now than before from even the best of the best. What is smarter to look at is what guys today accomplish & who they beat. Losing less then was more commonplace. Sure, Andre lost a lot less, but that doesnt mean he trumps others even from that era who took some more 3 counts. Certainly not above those who held the main belts or guys like Cena who lose tons but are still considered god.


    Few are capable of spiking ratings above the norm & yes Lesnar is one of them. In a way though, you are trying to make a point of saying Kurt could have, but didnt draw over the machine. Thats kinda skewed logic considering Andre/Lesnar are special attractions, so clearly they would spike numbers. So are you trying to fault the full time guys/champs in a way? If Angle was booked like Lesnars dates, he would jump the numbers too. Most anyone would.



    Never said he doesnt need to win to be special. I also get why he didnt need the belts to be huge. We both agree on that. My argument is why would a special attraction who has no need or care for titles be booked over in the finals to crown the #1 champ? If thats not his game, the promoters have made the $ off his bookings and Andre knows its good business, it seems quite simple. The special attraction squashed some fools & went out to the american hero on his quest for gold/glory.


    Nostalgia is a motherfucker.


    Take Show at his peak. Put him in Andre's spot. Shit would be oddly similar. He would have toured around blasting everyone & when he was taken down it would be huge. People now would honor and respect him.

    Andre now? Same. Except he would have wrestled less than Show has. Andre would have done good business, stepped up for the title as needed, monster heel, super face... whatever Vince needed as long as things were done straight up. Thinking otherwise is confusing to me.


    Kurt Angle is one of the best ever & saying he loses a match he can logically win using a few criteria, seems silly to me. Even more when the argument is basically, "Grrr Andre smash because he doesnt need titles". Well 30 plus years of wrestling has told me titles are important & Kurt won tons of them. If win streaks without reward were held in higher regard over those with the main belts, then shit would make no sense. Except for Taker/Mania I guess. Every win streak ends when business calls for it. Its logical to think it ends here for Andre as well.
     
    #54
  5. Lowdown

    Lowdown Ooh baby I like it roooaaaaw!

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    No, I wasn't joking. Angle's gold medal has nothing to do with this match being that this is a pro wrestling match, which you know is worlds apart from amateur or Olympic style wrestling. And even if this were an amateur style wrestling match, this would not be an easy contest for Kurt. You're really selling Andre short. Let me also throw this at you; in regards to weight lifting, it's a hell of a lot easier to dead lift or bench press 500+ pounds as opposed to trying to lift a 500+ pound human being. You think Kurt could do a German suplex to Andre? Maybe lift him on his shoulders to do the Olympic Slam? It's not impossible, but that might be improbable. You can vote for Kurt, and that's no crime at all. But maybe you should go and watch some old matches of Andre before discounting what he's capable of.
     
    #55
  6. Stone Cold Tea

    Stone Cold Tea Getting Noticed By Management

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    It's a pro wrestling match and not an Olympic wrestling match as you say then yeah Kurt can German suplex. Andre is going to shoot and be dead weight. Kurt duplexes Big Show so he could do it to Andre.
     
    #56
  7. Lowdown

    Lowdown Ooh baby I like it roooaaaaw!

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    Yeah, but remember I said it wasn't impossible, but improbable. It's not a knock on Kurt. I'm just pointing out that I don't think Kurt could wrestle circles around Andre as Chief was saying.
     
    #57
  8. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Championship Contender

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    Sorry, I didn't realize you were having a private convo.

    Yeah no shit it's the final night of the tournament. It's also the start of the night (you're ignoring that part).

    Andre's the attraction. You said so yourself. The people who paid for this night want to see him finish the job. They don't want to see him stumble out of the gate like you insist he's perfectly happy doing.

    You can possibly try using your 'he did his part, now he doesn't care' approach later. Not at the start of the last show. You just killed the mood for the entire night, and like I said... killed your town. Congrats you broke ass promoter you.


    OK enlighten me. Who from Andre's era would have beat him? I'm assuming that's where you're going when you say that he doesn't even trump others from his own era.

    I'm making a point that Angle could have what? Been a bigger draw if he was used less?

    Guy, you were arguing that people just come to see WWE today and that there aren't specific draws anymore. I was pointing out how that isn't true. Apparently you agree. Good.


    Again, you really don't seem to get what made him such a special attraction.

    One of the main reasons. He didn't lose. You couldn't beat him. He was incredibly protective of that.

    Part of that was the fact that if you put a singles title on him... eventually he would have had to lose it. He could sell out any show without being champ so he didn't need the title. No care for them? No... there wasn't enough money in it for him to be a champion.

    So going by that logic... why in the hell does Andre believe it's good business sense for him to job out in the opening match of the night? Why does he not care about winning this... when he can get the accolade without ever having to lose it afterwards... like a championship belt?

    Andre entered A LOT of battle royals. It was one of his things. He didn't lose them either. Why? Because there wasn't some battle royal championship that he would have had to eventually lose and risk tarnishing his mystique. They were an accolade he could get that wasn't a double edged sword.

    So again... why does what you say make good business sense to the man?



    Thinking how you do is confusing to me.

    Again, you do realize that Andre wasn't the only 'giant' of his era right? Because you really seem to think that all it took back then was for someone to be extra large and they could be iconic.

    I've made my case here more than once, and have yet to see anyone give any type of logical explanation why Andre would be just like the Big Show other than 'because'.

    Sorry guy. Not really feeling your 'logic'. Especially when you actually contradict it in the same paragraph you're explaining it.

    There's a time and a place for Andre to lose. This match isn't it.
     
    #58
  9. sikkbones

    sikkbones the root of all evil

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    The score is currently tied.

    Could this be the first one in the tournament to end in a draw?

    There was a reason at wrestlemania iv even in Andre's waning years that he went to draw/double disqualification against wrestling's most popular person ever.

    Andre was the only one at hogans level... Other than hogan, ever.

    Maybe this one should end in a draw and give Bruno a bye in the next round.

    Which exactly what andre would have done... He'd have fought and not lost but neither would he have won.
     
    #59
  10. Stone Cold Tea

    Stone Cold Tea Getting Noticed By Management

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    Kurt has made Austin,Lesnar,'Taker,Hogan,The Rock and Cena tap. I'm pretty sure he'd make Andre tap.
     
    #60
  11. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Every giant is not Andre, I get it. He was a gem. Still doesnt change the fact a guy the same size/build, who can move very well & is well liked/respected would have been just that back then. When comparing decades apart wrestlers, you have to go with the closest copy & yell all you want, but that is Show. Andre's appeal was his look and thus the streaks made sense. Does not mean he is unbeatable by a capable man, or shines brighter than one decorated with gold. Angle is both.

    Sometimes with Andre it seems people dismiss valid challengers by using "Andre smash, no lose" more than Goldberg or Lesnar. I love the guy, but damn even I can see when someone has his number. Especially when the amount of titles seemingly bears no weight against "Nope, cant beat him" or "He didnt need belts". Honestly the main reason the guy didnt hold gold more is most promoters wouldnt have a way to get it off him booking wise & if he didnt want to play ball with the new kid the bosses were not dumb enough to try and screw him. So everyone was just fine with him winning off to the side. He stays strong, they still have their title programs.

    So being a smart promoter, I book the guy in this to monster stomp his way through until he hits the red white and blue babyface on his way to another accolade for the books.


    Andre can beat people up. Angle is more than capable of handling a beating by larger opponents. Angle has beaten multiple legends for championships. Andre has less of a title resume, although impressive wins nonetheless. Booking wise it would be easier for Andre to recover from the loss after putting Angle over, than it would for the American hero to come back from not defeating the bad guy. I mean, what if Hogan never slammed Andre? Kurt would be in the spot to not only slam, but beat Andre & it makes perfect sense.


    There just seems to be more criteria marked in my checklist for an Angle win that isnt negated by just repeating Andre was Andre & how his lack of titles is more important that someone's abundance of them. He has beaten legends, he has beaten giants, he is the American hero on his way to add another accolade while triumphing over evil. Kurt freaking Angle.
     
    #61
  12. OYDK

    OYDK King Of The Ring

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    I can agree with everything else you said in your post, but this just isn't true. This is basically relegating Andre to his size and nothing more. Andre wasn't just a giant who went on a winning streak; while that admittedly was a big part of his attraction, there was much more that went into the legend of Andre the Giant. He had the presence and aura of a superstar, a charisma that made him one of the most beloved wrestlers ever, and a crossover appeal that few have ever accomplished. Even before he began his winning streak, he was raking in a shit ton of money and became the highest paid wrestler in history at one point in the early 70's.

    To give a modern day comparison, it's like saying "take Ryback, give him Paul Heyman, and he could do what Brock Lesnar does today." We all know that's not true... hell it's been proven. Andre the Giant was more than his size and it's incredibly unlikely that the Big Show would have had anywhere near the success of Andre the Giant had he been around back then.

    It's not that Andre didn't need titles, it's that he was bigger than titles. At his peak, Andre could have said "I want WWWF title" and he would have held the damn thing for as long as he wanted to. It's not an over-exaggeration to say that Andre was one of the very, very few who could have been described as bigger than the business at one time.

    Plus, why is it logical for this to end here for Andre but not Angle? Angle could beat Andre, but at this point, it makes more sense for Andre to move on because he offers the bigger payoff in the semis or the finals.
     
    #62
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  13. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Championship Contender

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    Well if all another guy needed back then was the same size/build, can move and is well liked/respected... then every giant might as well be Andre.

    Again, Andre actually wasn't the only giant in his day. There were actually bigger guys than him too (Haystacks Calhoun for one, was 600+ pounds - and could move). Don Leo Jonathan was pretty close in size to Andre... and VERY well regarded back in his day. I can guarantee even if you know who those guys are, half the people reading here don't. And do you know why? Because they weren't Andre. They didn't have what Andre had that made him special.

    I think I see where your problem here is. You don't see anything past Andre's size.

    Big Show is not the closest copy. Not at all. You put Show back in Andre's day, and he's probably another Jonathan. And there's nothing wrong with that because Don Leo Jonathan was pretty great. He just wasn't on Andre's level.

    Let me ask you this. When was the last time that people really cared about what the Big Show was going to do next, and really got into it? I mean really got into what the Big Show was doing?

    Because people really got into what Andre was doing all the time. For basically his entire career.

    So now you're saying that no one would make him a champ because they were all afraid that he'd never give the title back?

    Sorry guy, but that just wasn't a thing.

    Any promoter would have jumped at the chance to keep him in town longer than a few weeks by making him their champ, because believe it or not... but these guys all liked to make money.

    And the thought that Andre wasn't a professional and would go into business for himself? No one worried about that, because Andre was a professional.

    As the smart promoter, are you also booking Angle to win the entire tournament? Because otherwise, why did you waste someone like Andre on him? And why, as the smart promoter, are you throwing Andre away at the start of the night? The monster babyface (?!?) hasn't even stomped his way through the tournament yet. The night is still very young, and you have a house full of people who just got their to see Andre (the attraction).

    Sorry smart promoter. You're skipping town in the middle of the night after your next show because you just killed your town, and you didn't make enough to cover your expenses.

    Angle's come back from many a loss, and believe it or not, but there actually wasn't any shame in losing to Andre. Angle would have nothing to come back from.

    Also who says Andre's the bad guy? He worked 20 years as a babyface. He worked a couple as a heel.

    And who says Angle's the good guy? He worked heel more than he worked face.

    You really seem to struggle with the title thing don't you? Let's try going a little more modern to see if it helps.

    Austin hit a point where he didn't need to be champ to be the top guy. So did the Rock. So did Cena. So did Hogan before them.

    Certain guys reach heights where they don't need to be the champion anymore to be viewed as the top guy by everyone. Andre was one of those guys. Angle wasn't.
     
    #63
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  14. The Gribbler

    The Gribbler Gribble me this, Gribble me that...

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    Jesus Christ this is a tough call. Angle is one of the few people whose technical prowess could best a giant. We have seen it before vs the Big Show so it isn't like he can't do it. But Andre is the gold standard of big men and didn't lose often.

    I think it would be a great match, but Andre powers through.
     
    #64
  15. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    I am not the only person to hear about that reason for Andre not having more belts. Was it the only reason? Not likely, but a reason nonetheless. Either way, as criteria in this tournament, championship titles carry weight. Point Angle.

    I am not the only one who agrees with the Big Show/Andre time swich comparisons. Pointing out Andre was more charismatic does not negate the similarities. Angle has proven to overcome in a match featuring two much larger men, including one oddly close to his opponent here. Whether heel or face, Angle has enough to put Andre down.

    Moving merch, house draw, etc is too hard to call with such a gap in time. Both were top level & beat top level stars.

    If you were to create a pro wrestler in a lab, Kurt would be the blueprint. His job is to win titles and add accolades & he does it damn well. I am well aware of who Andre is, unlike others voting, yet can also understand when he is at a loss. He gets my vote plenty, but there are a few guys I cant vote him over & Angle is one. He is much more than just a glorified mid card guy as some people are stating & its amazing anyone could be so ignorant.
     
    #65
  16. Dragon Chief

    Dragon Chief Exodus 3:14

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    Just want to clarify one point from a physical stand point Andre the Giant and Big Show have a similar build, one can argue that Show is more athletic of the two. Just because Andre was able to do a drop kick doesn't mean he's this extremely agile big man. He was a lot lighter when he was able to perform that move, which further shows that Angle would have no issue taking Andre down if this really was "prime" Andre.

    From a logical standpoint if Angle was able to man handle the Big Show who has a VERY similar build to Andre than he would have no issue taking Andre to the ground and making his giant ass tap. Not like there was any doubt in the first place. Just want to point out how stupid a lot of you sound.

    Lastly, Inoki was able to make Andre tap out so I doubt he would have an issue putting over an Olympic gold medalist the same way.

    The logical choice here is Angle who more is decorated than Andre and better in the ring.
     
    #66
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  17. Big Nick Dudley

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    Very few guys (in their prime) would have a chance against Andre in his. The guys who come to mind (modern wrestling) are Hogan, Austin, Goldberg, Undertaker, Warrior, Cena and Lesnar (current run). I could be missing someone, but my point is Angle isn't in there, nor should he be. Angle is fantastic, but he was never quite that dominant. Andre should win.
     
    #67
  18. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    I can see that this has become quite heated with Andre being massively under and over estimated by various people. The fact is, he was a bigger name in the history of wrestling than Kurt Angle, and in reality he'd be going out of this tournament by double count out at some point. That's not an option, so until he meets someone who made a habit out of doing the impossible, then I think we have to assume he'd win, as he did so often. Not a particularly nuanced argument, I know, but Andre wins.
     
    #68
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  19. Pay Per Ghost

    Pay Per Ghost What they f*ck happened in the thread section here

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    Andre deserves this, sheerly because the only way to compare these two is in a matchup is track record and draw.

    Andre didn't lose to the Angles of this world, NOT IN BIG STAKES MATCHES. He lost to the top draw and IF you are thinking about bringing in the 'oh Angle beat Austin and Rock, hence by logic'...No! Stop! Please!

    Let's not devolve into how many times and how Angle won those matches in which part of his tenure.

    Andre was a way bigger deal in his era than Angle was in his. And their win/loss record shows that.
     
    #69
  20. Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.

    Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D. Kamehamehaaaaa!!

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    Kurt Angle is considered to be some kind of a god online, simply because he's such a good wrestler and has skillz and an olympic gold medal. KAYFABE people! It's freakin' wrasslin. Angle would be a former US special forces, having fought all kinds of people and done all kinds of stuff, BUT WHO CARES. Keep it kayfabe.

    Angle has beaten everyone he has ever faced. Rock, Austin, Hogan, Guerrero, Benoit, HBK, Undertaker, Orton, Cena, HHH, Lesnar. Every top star from 1996 till the present day has lost to Kurt Angle, at least once in their career. But what Angle lacks, is consistency. He just shows sparkles.

    Andre the Giant is the definition of consistency. Don't forget that WWF Andre was 40+ years old. What has Angle done after his 40s? What has any wrestler done after their 40s, similar to what Andre did from 1986 till 1988/89? Being in the biggest match in wrestling history that is.

    Take that and add it to who Andre was and what he was cabaple of, all those years before the WWF and you can see who is one of the greatest of all time. That is Andre. Kurt is barealy touching top 20 while Andre is in a position for the top 5 ever.

    Vote Andre.
     
    #70
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