Championship Region, Fifth Round: (1) John Cena vs. (2) Ric Flair

Discussion in 'Championship Region' started by klunderbunker, Apr 17, 2013.

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Who wins this match?

  1. John Cena

  2. Ric Flair

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. It's...Baylariat!

    It's...Baylariat! Team Finnley Baylor

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    Can't wait!

    I'm aware of Cena's tenacity, but Flair's found every different way to win lots of matches. What Flair's more known for is capitalizing on mistakes. He did that with Steamboat in their blowoff to regain the title, he's done that against Rhodes, Jimmy Garvin, Macho Man, and every other wrestler you can conjure up. The Figure Four won't beat Cena, but it'll damage Cena enough to make a mistake and lose to Flair

    But Cena was aware of the tables right? I know it's just a regular match, but you've got to realize that Flair doesn't make that mistake and when Cena does something that bone-headed, he'll pay for it.

    He's let his guard down numerous times. And the payback came in the form of a second match, which Cena will not get this time. Cena's too cocky for his own good and Flair is the "Dirtiest Player in the Game". He'll find a way to win and come out on top in this bout.

    Yes he will.

    None of those wrestlers are better than Ric Flair. And in most of these bouts, Cena's lost the previous encounter or has been bested in some fashion. Flair's rarely bested when the chips are down.

    Against wrestlers not as good as Flair.

    Yea, when Flair's came against top faces in DIFFERENT TERRITORIES, he's came out on top. :)

    Has not. Cena's only a cog in the wheel. Hogan CREATED that revenue generating ability and Austin resurrected it to bigger status. Cena's barely treading water when it comes to drawing the WWE money. Ric Flair made promotions around the world mega bucks just on his matches alone. That's without t-shirts, social media, and the internet.

    Question? Where will Cena be at 45? I'm predicting he'll be retired and considered a footnote in the grand scheme of the WWE. Flair was still given the reigns at 45 because he could carry the ball and make the title mean something. Cena won't be given that luxury.

    He lost two of those main events and lost one of them to the FUCKING MIZ! The. Miz. And won his first Wrestlemania main event this year. Flair was his own Wrestlemania when he came around. Flair was headlining events in the Orange Bowl, Tokyo Dome, and Texas Stadium when Cena was peeing in his diapers.

    If you space those out, those are losses he had once about every two years. Garvin's win was a fluke that he avenged a month or two later. And Flair's beaten Sting as routinely as Sting beat him. Inoki was a special attraction in South Korea, and it took Steamboat two times to beat Flair, and in their blowoff, who won that bout? FLAIR! To become SEVEN times World Champion.

    Austin says hello. And you know who Hogan and Austin say is the best wrestler they've ever seen? Ric Flair.

    Then I showed you the way he is.

    You watched Cena's promo's right? That match was 'Once in a Lifetime' and he 'had something to prove'. He obsessed over it and what happened to him? He lost because he was a cocky jerk who ended up with egg on his face. And trust me, Flair's a lot dirtier and more calculating than Rocky.

    If anyone can do that to Cena, it'll be Flair. Flair made a living out of making the face look like a billion dollars, then let them make a mistake, then the face tries to make one last effort to win, only for Flair to either get a roll-up, the Figure Four, or a fist full of rolled up quarters or brass knucks.

    After about a half hour with Flair, he'll be ripe for the picking. Cena will be so gassed, he'll take a nap and Flair will just cover him for the pin. I jest, but Flair's on a different level than any other heel Cena's ever faced.

    Whatever helps you rationalize you pick. Cena hasn't been a true face in nearly 4 years.


    The same goes for Cena. He'll make that mistake, end up pinned, and look into the stars and realize he couldn't beat THE MAN.

    So was Luger. And true, Luger was a fad, but when the Lex Express started, he was slated to be the next big thing and even managed to get a win over Yokozuna when Yoko was billed as a killer. Cena's been given more to work with, but their styles are similar and Flair had little trouble with Luger.

    In Flair's prime, NOBODY had that top spot except for Flair. Rhodes, Sting, and others wanted a piece of the pie. When he got around to Savage, Hogan, and others, he was past his prime. In Flair's peak, he was unstoppable and rarely lost his title belt.

    Cena's fought for his spot since he got there. Edge, Batista, HHH, Brock, Angle, and others could have easily took Cena's spot, but they simply couldn't handle the work-load Cena had. And Flair worked a much, MUCH tougher schedule. Flair's motto was "Everyday, and twice on Sunday." No way Cena could possibly do that.

    Not in Flair's prime he didn't. You're combining his days after his NWA Title runs to make your point. My point is a Flair in his prime doesn't lose to Cena. He'd be another territory champion he'd overcome and move to the next town for.

    It's drawing power. People want to see Flair more than Cena. And that's just a fact. Flair right now gets a bigger pop than current Cena does.

    In Bizzaro world maybe.

    [​IMG]
     
    #26
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  2. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    So the ratings drop of today is not all Cena's fault but the ratings drop of the NWA back in the day was all on Flair. Are you fucking kidding me? Also, Cena is a bigger draw then Flair was? Again, you have to be fucking kidding me.

    I voted for Cena because I thought that kayfabe wise he would go over in a one off like this, however, you make me want to take that vote back. You have spat out so much asinine bullshit in this tournament that it's incredible and the sad part is that you actually believe the shit you're spewing.

    I'm sorry I didn't vote for you Flair, please forgive me.

    Vote Flair people.
     
    #27
  3. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    To be fair the ratings DID raise steadily when Cena first became face only to plummet after that whole Chris Benoit thing so it's easy to say the double-murder suicide had more to do with business being down than Cena. To be frank I think Cena being as good as he was is the biggest reason why the WWE was still able to make money after that debacle. The Chris Benoit ordeal may have been the worst thing to ever happen to wrestling as after that the business as a whole was painted in the worst possible light, it also made Vince and the WWE look like the devil.

    I will say however the NWA failing had absolutely NOTHING to do with Flair not being a draw, that is the silliest thing I've ever heard. Forget the fact that WCW was run by morons that constantly fucked with shit, forget the fact that they changed direction every 2 months because their back office was like an endless carousel. If you're back office sucks, then your product sucks plain and simple, its like that for everything not just wrestling. A shit football team with great coaching will be at the very least be a playoff contender, a great football team with a shit coach is much more likely to fail.

    Note I voted for Cena, I honestly think it was the right way to go. I don't in any way think Cena is greater than Flair and has the legacy Flair has (who does) but Cena is a great wrestler no question about it. Kayfabe wise Cena is the type that can beat Flair (he's also the type Flair would put over in a heartbeat), he's a great draw (numbers wise better than Flair), and was able to help WWE rise above possibly its worst period in history from June '07 onwards. Couple that with the fact Flair wasn't the most popular guy in the Northeast triangle and Cena is the winner.
     
    #28
  4. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    I also voted for Cena because I thought kayfabe wise Cena would be the type of wrestler to go over Flair. Especially in a one off tournament. However, when I read things like the ratings for NWA were dropping and that's on Flair because he was on top, but the ratings fall of today can't have anything to do with Cena really confuses me.

    I'll agree that the Benoit situation did hurt a lot, however, there are a lot of people that Cena rubs the wrong way. The fact that Cena as the top face is consistently booed and the Punk as the top heel has his name chanted consistently says something. People can talk all they want to about how it's just the smarks that boo Cena, but it happens every night. Hell, he's even been getting boring chants here lately.

    How Cena can be blame free for the ratings drop of today and how Flair can get all the blame for the ratings drop of the NWA is ridiculous.

    Also, I really don't think that Cena is a larger draw then Flair was. He might make more off of merchandise and what not, however, Flair was going to every territory back in the day and selling them all out.

    Kayfabe wise though, I fully believe that Cena would go over.
     
    #29
  5. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    All through the gimmick rounds I've heard how John Cena always overcomes insurmountable odds... you know what the story here is though? If anything, Flair should (kayfabe) be the one facing the odds here as dqs and countouts would mean he loses.

    Here's the problem though, while Flair was never too proud to take cheap wins or losses that don't cause him the belt - when forced into a corner and his opponents had the advantage they still couldn't "be the man" because they could not "beat the man". You want proof? For the 10 years he was the top dog in the NWA, he was World Champion for 8 years.

    If Cena has shown something in his 8 years on top, he is susceptible when he has the advantage. John SHOULD have beaten RVD at ONS, he SHOULD have beaten Kevin Federline, he SHOULD have beaten the Miz at WrestleMania, he SHOULD have beaten CM Punk at MitB, he SHOULD have defeated a ring rusty Rock, he SHOULD have beaten John Laurenitis.

    Now I know what people will try to rebuke this with - there were extenuating circumstances in many of those examples... you know something, the dirtiest player in the game is the king at working extenuating circumstances to his benefit.

    Cena would come into this match fully expecting to win because Naitch is shackled by the standard rules, Naitch would come in with a way to get round them.

    Vote: "the Nature Boy" Ric Flair
     
    #30
  6. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Flair did very well in the Mid Atlantic region but there were area's he wasn't selling out, Northeast being one of them. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying Flair wasn't a draw but he wasn't someone who could go anywhere and draw. He had a large and devout fanbase but there were a lot of places he didn't draw. Hell, a lot of places he would wrestle on the 3rd match as NWA champion because of that fact.

    Also I agree that blaming Flair with the ratings drop in the NWA was ridiculous and I mentioned that in my last post. Good coach (WWE) will always beat the piss out of the Shitty coach (NWA) no matter who is on the team. Flair just had the rotten luck of being the top guy in a company that after '88 didn't know what the fuck they were doing.

    Lastly it's hard to say Flair was a bigger draw when in the last 2 WM's Cena in the main event helped draw over 150,000 paying customers into the stadiums alone not to mention the PPV buys.
     
    #31
  7. IHW

    IHW WZCW's Brent Blaze

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    16 time World Champion. 13 time World Champion. Greatest of his era. Greatest of his era. Number 2 seed. Number 1 seed. The similarities are there. The epic showdown between two great. Sure, nobody wants to see this match now. But, everybody would be chomping at the bit to see John Cena vs. Ric Flair in their primes.

    Flair has many accolades that Cena simply does not. But, that is only due to the fact that Cena's career is far from over. Flair is a two time hall of famer. Two of them which may never be a title Cena gets. But one title Cena should get is WZT Winner.
     
    #32
  8. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    While Cena did definitely help draw the fans into the stadiums, he wasn't the only reason that the fans came in droves to see WrestleMania. I'll give he and the Rock credit for WM 28, however, I think that 'Taker vs Punk was the biggest selling point for the actual stadium this year. Did you hear the crowd reaction for their match and how dead the crowd was for the rest of the night?

    Anyway, I still think that Flair was a bigger draw overall then Cena is.
     
    #33
  9. LSN80

    LSN80 King Of The Ring

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    Lord knows I respect you as a poster, but me thinks you couldn't be further off here.

    Why? What submission finisher in the past has damaged Cena to the point where he made a mistake and lost the match? Other then his match with against Rock at Wrestlemania 2012, where has he made a mistake that's cost him a one on one match? If anything, Cena is the one who's capitilized on countless mistakes from over-aggressive competitors, and caught them in the STF. And unlike Cena, Flair has tapped to babyfaces, all less powerful then Cena.

    If anything, Cena's mistake against Rock at Wrestlemania has made him a smarter competitor, and he'll head into this match aware of the mistakes he's made, and not make them again.

    Flair has indeed made that mistake, it was his cockiness that cost him against Steamboat when it was the "Ladies Man" vs the "Family Man." The same goes for his title loss against Garvin. On other occasions, he's needed the Horseman to save him with interference to DQ him and save his title.

    He won't have that luxury here, as a DQ costs him the match. And should the Horseman interfere, Cena's shown the ability to fend off interference and still win matches.

    He's let his guard down when, other then Rock? When he had MITB cashed in on him? When Batista beat him after he won the Elimination Chamber? He was gassed after long matches, and facing fresh competitors. That won't be the case here.

    When, in a standard one on one big match first meeting against a heel has Cena let his guard down and lost? You keep bringing up the arrogance of Cena, which occured in one match in his entire career. I can't think of other instances where Cena's cockiness cost him a match. If anything, it's Flair arrogance that would be his downfall, as he's shown himself to be far more cocky then Cena has ever been.

    And again, Cena, in a standard one on one match, has generally won the first match of his feuds with heels. And when it's been one and done against a top heel, Cena wins. I can't think of an occasion where he hasn't in his prime. Even against the most technical of wrestlers, Kurt Angle, Cena beat him over and over despite interference and Kurt's experience advantage when Cena was just entering his prime.

    A prime of eight years with one major mistake in a single's match says otherwise.

    I didn't say they were, with perhaps the exception of HBK. And again, in big matches, Cena generally wins the first match in feuds, unless it was a gimmick match or a cash-in/screwjob of some point. They weren't the occasion of the chips being down, they were the deck stacked against Cena in insurmountable odds.

    And in the cases of Edge and Batista, when they faced off in their first one on one match(as heels), Cena made Edge tap out at Royal Rumble 2006, and Batista at Wrestlemania 26.

    In Wrestlemania and PPV main events when the odds were stacked against him against the best heels of his generation. Against a variety of competitors. Hell, he beat Kurt Angle when Angle had his own personal referee. You're arguing that Cena loses when the chips are down, or odds are against him, but he was facing a ten time World Champion in HHH in his first WM main event, and he made him tap out. He faced his DX partner in HBK at next year's main event, and made him tap out.

    In each of these cases, Cena adapted during the course of the match. He was out-wrestled at first by veterans, yet adapted, and caught each wrestler in mistakes to make them tap.

    Flair may work Cena over early, and even catch him in a figure four, but Cena will do what he's done to every other prime wrestler he's faced: He'll adapt, catch him in a mistake(likely Flair's trademark arrogance), and make him tap or beat him with the AA.

    Further, Cena's wrestled one Loser Leaves WWE match, and two "If Cena loses, he leaves Raw" matches, and he's won them all. Flair's loser leaves WWF match? He lost it to Mr. Perfect, who's far less of a star then Jericho, Edge or Orton, Cena's foes in his matches.

    Those are as high stake matches as they come.

    Yet this is a neutral territory, which lends to an advantage for neither man. :)

    And Cena's done the same thing in big matches against top heels. The territory days are long gone. But as example, Cena went into Edge's hometown, the top heel at the time, and beat him in Edge's match. One he never lost before or after.

    And that's just one example.

    Cena's the cog that makes the entire damn wheel run. And to suggest that Cena's only "treading water" based on his Wrestlemania gates from the past two years and his incredible merchandise sales, he's far above treading water, he's WWE's biggest draw, by far.

    You're avoiding the point that Cena has been far more successful in terms of title reigns then Flair at his age when compared to Flair.

    That's speculation, and a poor attempt at that. The undeniable face of the company with 13 title reigns(with more likely to come) won't be a "footnote", he'll be a Hall of Famer soon after he retires and remembered as one of, if not the greatest, Superstar of all time.

    And as Cena has shown over his 8 years at the top, he'll be able to carry the ball and make the title relevant. He'll be main eventing PPV's with it and anyone who gets a win over him will be made, like he did for Punk, Orton and Edge.

    And while will Cena be retired at 45, exactly? His passion for the busines is equal to Flair's, and it's not as if wrestlers like HBK or Undertaker were retired around that age, so why would Cena? He's better conditioned then any wrestler in the business, so why is it unconceivable that Cena won't be wrestling still at that point?

    It's far more likely that Cena will have topped Flair's 16 World Title wins record by then rather then retired. And there's nothing in his track record to suggest he'll be a footnote, rather, he'll be an icon that he's already pushed as by WWE.

    My quote was that he's won 3 Wrestlemania main events, he's competed in five. And his loss to the Miz wasn't in a standard one on one match. In was in a No-Dq, No countout match, where he was Rock Bottomed.

    Again, this isn't that match.

    No, he won his first Wrestlemania main event in his first try and Wrestlemania 22, when he made HHH tap out. He then won his 2nd in 2 tries the following year, when he made HBK tap out. Both in their first encounters. His win against the Rock this year was his third Wrestlemania main event win.

    Not always, and when Flair came to the Northeast, he was often not the main event of the card, as he simply wasn't the biggest draw. And seeing how this is a one night tournament, the draw is the 8 wrestlers, not Ric Flair himself.

    And what happened to Flair when he came to Jack freaking Venero's territory? How about Antonio Inoki's?

    Yet that can't be said about any heel Cena has faced.

    Cena, by virtue of spending more time on top then Austin, has generated more revenue for the WWE then Austin did. And if this was about being the best wrestler alone, the likes of Hogan and Andre the Giant wouldn't be here in the final 8.

    It's about who would win in a kayfabe match.

    Of course I did. But Rock was a super-face, Flair a mega-heel. And, as I already pointed out, Cena's learned from his mistake against Rock, and hasn't made it again, against Rock or any other competitor. And you're speaking of a competitor in Flair whose entire career was based around him being a 'cocky jerk', and it has cost him in the past, against both Steamboat and Sting, amongst others.

    And the 'cocky heel' is exactly the one Cena has gone over again and again throughout his prime.

    You're depending on Cena to make a mistake like the one he did against Rock, and he won't against Flair.

    But he won't.

    The roll-up(Cena's strength) nor the figure four(he doesn't tap) will beat John Cena, and Cena's kicked out of brass knucks and sledgehammer blows in major matches. What does Flair have left to beat Cena?

    And Cena's 'last effort' to win, time and time again, has lead to his opponent trapped in the STF, tapping out.

    Doubtful, as Cena has gone longer then a half hour numerous times, and has never been ripe for the picking. He may never have faced a heel like Flair, but Flair's never faced a "prime" face like Cena either.

    And history shows that Flair has lost far more to prime faces then Cena has to prime heels.

    If he behaves like a face, wrestles clean like a face, and overcomes the odds like a face, it means he's a face. Mixed crowd reactions don't determine "heels" or "faces", their actions do.


    Cena has a far more diverse repotoire then Luger ever did, is more resilient then Luger ever was, and has stood the test of time for far longer then Luger ever did. And Luger's matches against Yoko were won by countout, and lost by DQ, hardly definitive victories.

    Luger was a mid-carder briefly elevated to main event status only due to a Sting injury. Flair's not facing a mid-carder here, he's taking on the face of the WWE for the past 8 years. The comparisons of Cena to Luger are laughable, as the comparisons to Hogan are far more realistic then you'ld like to admit.

    Except for those losses to Jack Venero(never recognized), to an over-the-hill Harley Race, Sting, Dusty Rhodes, Ricky Steamboat, and Kerry Von Erich in one on one matches. And none of those men are on the same level as John Cena.

    Cena has been the unquestionaly top face except for the first 3-4 months of his prime, and he quickly and easily overcame Batista for that spot. And if those men could have taken Cena's spot, they would have, because the Edge's, Batista's Angle's and HHH's were working the same schedule Cena did,yet they didn't overcome Cena for the spot.

    Why? Because Cena was unquestionably the man. And with the demanding schedule Cena already keeps combined with his work ethic and passion for the business, there's no question he could work the schedule Flair did if needed.

    I'm combining the body of his work in his prime to make my point. Part of his time with the NWA title belt took place in WCW, did it not? He was in his prime then, and many of his high profile losses took place then, still in his prime.

    And even before the NWA was consolidated with WCW, he lost the title to Von Erich, Race, Rhodes and Venero, in territory matches. None of those men with near the star power as Cena.

    In Charlotte, perhaps. Flair's last few appearances on Raw have been met with surprisingly mediocre response, as compared to Cena, who always elicits a reaction from every fan in the arena. Fans pay to see Cena, whether it be to see him win or lose, they pay to see him.

    It's not a fact. It's speculation, and based on Flair's recent appearances and Cena's reaction everytime he appears, you're wrong.

    In reality, actually.
     
    #34
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  10. It's...Baylariat!

    It's...Baylariat! Team Finnley Baylor

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    And as a good poster, I'm here to show you why I'm not off at all.

    Cena's made more than one mistake in big matches. And that match with The Rock is a glaring mistake. It was the biggest match of his career up to that point and he let Rock get into his head so badly that he thought he had to hit the People's Elbow on Rock just to prove a point. And it ended up costing him the match. And Flair > Rock when it comes to head games, too. So what that match with Rock does is make Flair's case even better.

    Or Flair gets into his head, stalls, makes Cena become the aggressor and works him over like he's done to every babyface he's ever fought in his prime.

    Flair didn't let his cockiness get him beat, he was beaten in a hard fought match against a great worker. And to Flair, not a lot was at stake. In this match, there won't be any looking over Cena. Flair will put over Cena like a million dollars, tell him he has to walk that aisle... and to BE THE MAN... he has to BEAT ... THE MAN! Cena will be a nervous wreck going against the greatest in-ring performer in my lifetime. Flair will strut, get in Cena's head, and make Cena work his ass off.

    Flair's beaten plenty of folks without the Horsemen. And who's to say they won't get him before the match starts? Either way, Flair didn't need the Horsemen to beat Dusty, Harley Race, and all of his other opponents.

    Against Sheamus, Dolph Ziggler. MIZ! You keep leaving the Miz out of this, and as bad as Miz is, he beat Cena at Wrestlemania. And I know Rock helped Miz, but Cena should overcome that right? Exactly.

    Once the match starts, Flair is all business. And he's always found a way to walk out with the belt. Or in this case, the title of G.O.A.T.

    Among the wrestlers that have had Cena's number overall include Edge, Batista, Miz, and CM Punk. Each of those wrestlers dominated Cena until they had a blowoff match where Cena went over. In a one time, one off opportunity, Cena blew it... against the Rock. He only received a rematch because he won the Royal Rumble. Otherwise, he would have never had another shot at Rocky.


    Flair's had 8 plus years of his prime and wrestling much more than Cena ever thought about. And in Flair's matches, the other guy makes the mistake.


    I keep deferring to the Rock. The one man besides Stone Cold that Cena hasn't overcome and he lost. And the deck was in favor of Cena if anything, because he thought he was in Rock's head and thought that he would have the match in the bag. He was proven wrong.

    But he was pinned by Miz and Rock, too. Flair's better than them both, and when the match is as huge as it is, Flair's going to come out on top one way or another.


    Those matches weren't as big as Miz and Rock's matches, where he lost.

    Flair's the same way and much better at it.

    It'll be more like Cena gets the upper hand, then Flair works him over, then Cena hulks up and tries to put Flair away, Flair attempts to use brass knuckles, ends up dropping them, Cena becomes desperate and nails Flair, pins him, and thinks he's won. Only for referees to come down, say Cena used the knucks on Flair, and Flair wins.

    Cena's lost a couple of those matches and ended up 'fired' for a spell. Flair was on his way back to WCW. Cena wasn't going anywhere, yet still lost the match.

    And Cena lost.

    So the territory where the WWE's ran matches for 70 years isn't an advantage? C'mon man!

    I could continue to pick the post apart piece by piece, but I've made my points. Flair's been the best wrestler in my generation and every single wrestler that's meant anything to this industry puts Flair over as the greatest of all time. Cena's booked to be Superman, but so were the Von Erich's, Jerry Lawler, Harley Race, Dusty Rhodes, Jumbo Tsuruta, and tons of others. And Flair beat them all. Flair's beaten men PAST his prime that are better than Cena. And I know that Cena's lost a handful of meaningful matches in his career, but those are glaring statistics in a G.O.A.T. showdown. Miz pinned Cena at Wrestlemania. Rock's pinned Cena at Wrestlemania after a bone-head mistake. JBL has pinned Cena in a huge rivalry match. Batista's pinned Cena on PPV in title matches, and Kurt Angle HAS SUBMITTED Cena with the Angle Lock. Orton's also pinned Cena.

    So you're arguments about Cena not making many mistakes just isn't true. He's lost a lot of major matches, and more than Flair has over his career.

    Vote for Flair.
     
    #35
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  11. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    The first person I would point to in this match is Lex Luger from 1988.

    I know he isn't that revered today, but back in the late 80s, Luger was a BEAST. This guy flat out did not lose and was a freak of nature, throwing everyone in the Rack and making them scream for mercy. The 1988 Great American Bash and Starrcade were supposed to be Flair walking to the gallows and being destroyed by Luger once and for all in matches that Flair had no business winning.

    Flair walked out with the title both times.

    Also in 1988, Flair met with the future of the business in Sting. Again, Flair was seen as dead to rites but he walked out as champion again. The same thing happened in 1993 at Starrcade against Vader.

    In short, Ric Flair is the one man that can find a way to pull off a huge upset here against John Cena.

    That brings us to the one major problem for Flair: this isn't Luger, this isn't Vader, this isn't even Sting. This is JOHN CENA, one of the greatest of all times. The only chance Flair has here is to either make Cena make a mistake (which is where Sting kept failing) or to get a fluke pin (like he did with Vader). Flair has nothing that is going to stop Cena one on one and Cena is way smarter than most faces. Also, what is usually Flair's greatest advantage, his cardio, is completely neutralized here as Cena seems incapable of getting tired in a match. Look at his match with Shawn from London. He had gone through about 40 minutes and looked like he had just stepped outside to get his paper.

    I'm not sure who I'm voting for here, but Flair is in BIG trouble. However, that could be said about almost every major match he's ever walked into and he's won A LOT of them.
     
    #36
  12. It's...Baylariat!

    It's...Baylariat! Team Finnley Baylor

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    THIS x10000

    I know Cena's the face of wrestling right now and he's been billed as a Superman, but Ric Flair's faced 10 times the adversity and came out on top. He's pinned Hogan, Savage, Race, Rhodes... we're talking about HOF'ers. How many HOF'ers has Cena pinned? Two maybe? Flair's pinned Race, Rhodes, Hogan, Steamboat, Terry Funk, Jack Brisco, and Eddie Guerrero. And Savage should be in the HOF, too.

    Ric Flair's the greatest wrestler in my generation and some make the argument that he's the greatest of all time. I'd say Hogan and Austin could make an argument, but both of them give way to Flair in their own words.

    Vote Flair.
     
    #37
  13. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    So let me get this straight, your argument here is that because Cena hasn't wrestled/beaten as many Hall of Famers as Flair that he shoulds lose. Right so the mid-30's John Cena who is still in the midst of his career with the majority of his rivals still competing themselves hasn't got as many opponents in the Hall of Fame as the 60 year old plus Ric Flair who has been around since the 70's...shocking.

    Also, you know how everyone voting for Flair just seems to love listing names of people he's faced/beaten, well; The Undertaker, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, Batista, Chris Jericho, Randy Orton, The Big Show, The Rock, CM Punk, Triple H (Both of whom are as close to being booked like Ric Flair was as anyone is ever going to get) and I could go on. You're trying to tell me these guys would never be in the Hall of Fame let alone the like of Booker T, Shawn Michaels and Edge who already have spots in the Hall of Fame?
     
    #38
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  14. LSN80

    LSN80 King Of The Ring

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    I see this as being the biggest point in KB's post. I've never in this thread tried to downplay Flair, and his greatness. But all the points KB made, I made previous. There's nothing in Flair's arsenal, be it the figure four to the brass nucks, that will keep Cena down. No submission maneuver or knucks have in the past. He kicked out of a sledgehammer shot from HHH just as he was entering his prime, and he's ot nearly the accomplished or intelligent wrestler he is today. Cena's cardio, as he's shown not only in the match with HBK in London, but his more brutal Ironman match vs Orton attest to that. in the latter match, he had enough stamina and strength to make Orton tap out to end the match. Cena can match Flair's cardio.

    Further, despite insistence to the contrary, Cena is a smart wrestler. Name me a wrestler in his prime at the top who hasn't gotten arrogant? But contrary to others, Cena learned from that mistake. In his larger stakes match with Rock, he faked doing the same as the year prior, and outsmarted Rock. Flair made countless mistakes in his career that cost him championship matches due to....arrogance. So who really is the smarter competitor?

    I understand how people can let Ric Flair's greatness, his ability, like Cena's to overcome to odds and win, and vote for him. But where are al the greats Flair has beaten left in this tourney? Gone. Yet a man who Cena defeated multiple occasions and made tap out twice is still here in HHH. I know that's not the ultimate measuring stick, but it shows a trend of informed posters and who they favor. Not Flair's opponents, one of Cena's biggest wins in a championship match with both in their primes.

    Flair's arsenal and strengths aren't areas of strength against Cena. Either Cena could match that strength, or short-circuit the arsenal. Taking nothing away from Flair, logic booking says this goes to John Cena.
     
    #39
  15. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    I wrote a long post that seems to have disappeared into the aether, so I'll keep this short and sweet. While Flair was at his peak, millions of people were tuning into another station to watch Hulk Hogan. When Cena was at his peak, children in villages in Romania were writing his name on people's cars on Top Gear.

    Flair was fine, but he was the B product champion. He won the title in WWF, but after its popularity waned and he didn't stand out from the competition, something Cena has always done. Probably the most straightforward match of the round for me, Cena wins.
     
    #40
  16. FitFinlay4Life

    FitFinlay4Life What's the craic?

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    First off, he lost that match to Shawn. Secondly, it's a 60 minute time limit, not a 60 minute Iron Man match. Thirdly, going 60 minutes against another guy not renowned for doing it regularly isn't the same as doing it against a guy famous for it. Plus, since when does HBK spend the most of his time targeting a body part and working it over?

    Flair!

    In the last year alone Cena lost to Dolph Ziggler because he didn't foresee a known schizophrenic woman turning on him and this came after he lost to John Laurenitis because he didn't foresee the Big Show turning on him (the only man on the planet not to see it) and just weeks ago he didn't see Ryback turning on him... tell me again how he learns by his mistakes?

    If you want an example of someone learning from his mistakes, Flair is most definitely the man - all you have to do is realize that Flair held the NWA/ WCW belt for 8 out of 10 years to recognize how quickly he rectified mistakes.

    Erm... he has one on one victories over Hulk Hogan, Triple H and the Undertaker all when he was way past his prime.

    Beating Triple H is very good; Flair beat him AND his idol Harley Race.

    No, logic might say that Cena should win (big powerful monster face against cowardly heel with the rules in the face's favor) and this has nearly always meant that the heel wins. Wrestling 101 states that a face should never have the advantage going into a match and, when he does, watch out because he's going to lose! This has even happened on the biggest stage of all with Cena in this role - WM27 and he lost to the Miz... or what about Punk's win at MitB - Cena had always beaten Punk, this was a standard match, no way would John lose... (I can continue)

    Flair, on the other hand, made his career of overcoming this exact scenario. He'd enter into a feud with a guy that he'd make it look like he was incapable of handling and do everything to dodge him until he was forced into a corner were the valiant hero would get exact his wrath and Naitch was guaranteed to lose... and then he'd win!
     
    #41
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  17. It's...Baylariat!

    It's...Baylariat! Team Finnley Baylor

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    So now we're saying Cena can hang with Flair for 60 minutes if needed. I mean if we're going to grasp at straws, why not say that if necessary, Flair could hit the Attitude Adjustment and beat him? Ric Flair's wrestled more 60 minute matches than Cena's wrestled ACTUAL matches!

    Now to be clear, as a person I think Cena's a bastard, but as a wrestler, he's the best in the business right now. And right now is the weakest the business has been since the pre-Attitude era. Flair thrived because of who he is. Cena thrives because the WWE WANTS him to thrive. He's part of a machine. Flair WAS the machine.

    Flair's wrestled in Romania, something Cena's probably never done. And Tasty, I respect you very much as a poster and all, but what's highlighted in bold is downright laughable. B product champion. The NWA had a better product and was traveling worldwide before the WWE. And Flair defended his belt against anyone and everyone. And Cena stands out because you can't fucking miss him in his stupid ass t-shirts. Flair stood out because of his ring performances and his promos. Cena's known for t-shirts and charity work, and while I commend his work for Make-A-Wish (even if I'm under the opinion that he's obligated to do it because of his status with the WWE), that doesn't make him better than Flair.

    So if you want to piss on the foundation of pro wrestling, go ahead and do it, but at least make arguments that have some merit.
     
    #42
  18. shattered dreams

    shattered dreams Hexagonal Hedonist

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    Here is what pisses me off about Cena clockslobbing. Who is the best wrestler that Cena has defeated when they were in their prime? Go ahead pick a few even.
     
    #43
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  19. LSN80

    LSN80 King Of The Ring

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    I understand what you're saying: Shawn won the longer form match. But in the match that counted, for the WWE Championship, Cena put HBK away in less time then HBK needed to beat Cena, the former being the more important match.


    I know, I've been arguing standard one on one, "championship-like" match
    since my first post. So many have wanted to point to Flair's cardio as a strength, my entire point here is that Cena has shown he can match it.

    That says more about Flair's inability to put away competitors then it does anything else.

    That's what he spent their WrestleMania 23 encounter doing: Working over Cena's leg. And what happened? He still tapped out.

    I'd say she was more vindictive towards Cena then anything, but look at my first post. It was a gimmick match. This was not.

    1. Another gimmick match.
    2. Just because the fans could see it, doesn't mean the Superstars were. We live in this bubble where we believe we're truly part of what's telling the story. We're not.

    And did I mention this was another gimmick match?
    That wasn't a match.

    Because in 8 years as a main event wrestler, Cena has lost exactly once by making a mistake himself. The examples you provided are fine and dandy, but they were others turning on Cena, not Cena making a mistake in a one on one match.

    If you want an example of someone learning from his mistakes, Flair is most definitely the man - all you have to do is realize that Flair held the NWA/ WCW belt for 8 out of 10 years to recognize how quickly he rectified mistakes.

    Hogan was past his prime as well, HHH destroyed him in a one on one match while Flair won "his match" inside a steel cage, and when did he beat Undertaker? He lost to him by DQ once, and lost clean to him at WrestleMania.

    In a standard one on one match like this one, which is what Cena did.

    Inside a steel cage, which this is not.

    And who in his generation, past or present, has Cena not beaten?


    beaten.
    Except Cena's an iconic powerful face combined with agility and strength. What does Flair have in his arsenal to combat that? chops? The figure four? Cena doesn't tap.

    Which is irrelevant in this tournament. It's the better man, who would win in kayfabe. And Flair has nothing in his arsenal that Cena hasn't seen and overcome. He's overcome brass knucks to beat Jericho. He's never tapped in his prime. He's not going to get rolled up here. Horseman interference costs Flair the match, and a chop block or knee drop is going to keep Cena down? It never has in the past.

    Question? What kind of match did Cena lose to Miz in? Was it a one on one match? Or was it a no-DQ, no Countout match. Let me save you the trouble, it was the latter.

    Correct. I never said Cena didn't lose one on one matches, I said he didn't lose them cleanly to heels. Punk was a face after his promo a few weeks before MITB. This was a face vs. face matchup.

    Except none of his opponents were a prime John Cena. DO you know why Cena doesn't routinely wrestle 60 minute matches? It's not because he can't he's shown that he can. It's because he hasn't had to, as he's put his opponents away long before that.

    There would be no escaping that corner, or in this case, the STF, for Flair.
     
    #44
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  20. deem

    deem Getting Noticed By Management

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    So I just had to check how long the poll had left, as I'm NOWHERE near a decision yet after thinking for the last three days already. This is sooo close.

    Logical booking - super close. Flair has been relevant for wayy longer and has gained unparalleled admiration from his peers. Cena on the other hand has been THE undisputed star of the sport for at least 8 years now, a peak that Flair never reached despite all his accolades and ability. Super face Vs super heel, it's a classic battle and both would be equally useful moving forward in the tournament.

    Kayfabe - Both have really, really great win/loss records, with numerous wins on the big stage when it matters. Sure Cena is booked more dominantly, that doesn't matter much. A win's a win is a win, and Flair found them despite having like 20% of the control segments. I really love the "Cena would be expected to win here, which is exactly where Flair excels" arguments. I also concur that for all the names Flair has done great against, Cena is better than them.

    Ok the key here is establishing which talent the level of Cena Flair has ever feuded with. I think a lot of people are quick to dismiss the Flair of the early 90s as being out of his prime btw - possibly, but he was still booked near the top until Hogan entered the WCW. Like, I consider Undertaker's prime to be fairly recent, around WM24? Whichever one he mained with Edge, I can't remember. Obviously he was ageing, but he was as dominant kayfabe as ever. Same for Flair earlys 90s - he entered the WWF and was the #1 heel for the first two years. Hopped back to WCW, instantly won the world title again. So I think his records in this time hold up just fine.

    Right so, biggest names in kayfabe Flair ever feuded with. Sting, Hogan, Bret, Savage I'm happy to include (despite Cena being the second best on that list imo). I'll add Luger due to the similarity in stature and style, despite him being drastically inferior. Race/Andre are too different to include despite being legitimate main event talents. Steamboat/Windham/Rhodes aren't on the same level as Cena imo, never getting close to the #1 in North America like the Flair/Cena managed, despite all being great.

    So let's look at PPV results vs our shortlist of Cena-level opponents Flair feuded with.

    Vs Sting on PPV - 1 win for Flair, 4 losses.
    Vs Hogan on PPV - 3 for Flair with 4 losses.
    Vs Bret Hart on PPV - No wins for Flair, 2 for Bret Hart.
    Vs Randy Savage on PPV - 4 wins for Flair, 2 for Savage.
    Vs Lex Luger on PPV - 3 wins for Flair, 2 for Luger.

    Overall records if you wanted them, including everything;

    Vs Sting, 45 wins 88 defeats
    Vs Hogan, 20 wins 101 defeats
    Vs Bret, 6 wins 53 defeats
    Vs Savage, 25 wins 113 defeats.
    Vs Luger 69 wins 166 defeats.

    Combined PPV results of Flair Vs the "Cena-level" - 11 wins, 14 losses.
    Combined total results of Flair Vs the "Cena-level" - 165 wins, 521 losses.


    That's more onesided than I expected to be honest. Of course it's subjective whether these guys are better than Cena or not - for me, I think you'd struggle to make an argument that any of Savage/Luger/Bret/Sting are better than Cena in kayfabe.

    So EVEN on PPV, Flair has a negative record against similar, mostly inferior opponents to this one.


    This is why I'm finding it tough. I can see a scenario with Cena being over confident and Flair stealing it, but I don't think there are enough facts to back it up without just picking someone based on how you imagine the match unfolding.
     
    #45
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  21. shattered dreams

    shattered dreams Hexagonal Hedonist

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    I would love to know when Cena beat someone on Hogan's level 20 times. No *********ing isn't a loophole because Cena is not on Hogan's level. Hogan didn't ride the top, he made the top. Are you going to complete the analysis for Flair level opponents? Sting, Hart and Luger are all about a decade younger than Flair.
     
    #46
  22. CleverName51

    CleverName51 Little Jimmy

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    I'm voting for Cena because I can't see a scenario where, in a tournament, Flair would beat Cena.

    If this was a title match being booked, and Flair was the Champ, yeah, he'd cheat his way to a win.

    But in a 1 on 1, no titles on the line type of match...Flair would toss out all his tricks before Cena would hit the 5 moves of doom to end it.

    Basically, Cena takes Flairs entire arsenal of dirty tricks...then...while in the figure four, gets the ropes, as Flair begs the ref for a tap out call or something, Cena snaps up, hits the shoulder tackles, the Proto-bomb, the 5 knuckle shuffle...and AA...

    Cena gets a 2 count off the AA, Flair pokes Cena in the eyes before going for a figure 4, only for Cena to counter it to the STF, once in the STF, Cena chokes out the already bleeding Flair...only to let it go, AA Flair one last time and get the pinfall.
     
    #47
  23. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    Hogan was wrestling against legends, Flair was wrestling against anyone and everyone, because he was on a lesser product. Speak for historical prestige all you want, but the fact is, the 1980s, when Flair was on top, he was drawing crowds of less than 10,000 to Starrcade.

    Every single Starrcade that Flair headlined in the 1980s put together drew the almost the same number of fans that Cena did to WrestleMania 29 alone.

    So no, it is not ridiculous to call a product drawing 6,000 to its biggest annual show while Hogan was drawing ten times that to WrestleMania the B product.
     
    #48
  24. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    I'm tired of people saying that Cena drew all of those numbers for WrestleMania 28 and 29 all by his lonesome. Like there was no Lesnar, HHH, Rock, CM Punk, or Undertaker.

    In this day and age it's not the same as it was in the 80's. Someone like Flair as the NWA World Champion went all over the world and drew sell out crowds because HE was the star. Today, however, there are several stars. So you can't say that Cena out draws Flair because of these stadium WrestleManias because the fact is if there was no Rock, 'Taker, Punk, HHH, or Lesnar and Cena was the only worth while attraction, I guarantee that 80,000 people would turn into less than 10,000 really damn quickly.

    Back in Flair's day though, people came out in droves to see their home town guy wrestle who? Ric Flair! Cena is not a larger draw then Ric Flair. Not at all. So if you want to argue legacies, influence, and drawing power in this match, then Cena should lose and lose easily.

    Kayfabe wise, however, Cena would probably go over because he's the type of performer that Flair put over all of the time.
     
    #49
  25. It's...Baylariat!

    It's...Baylariat! Team Finnley Baylor

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    Phenom already made a great point, but you mention one instance of Starrcade not drawing a capacity crowd. In 1987, on Thanksgiving night. Not the fault of Flair, but of Vince McMahon and Jim Crockett for not pushing the event as much as he could have.

    And you forget about the Great American Bash, where he drew nearly 50 thousand fans to watch him wrestle RICKY MORTON! That's one half of a tag team. Imagine Cena headlining Summerslam against - let's say Titus O'Neal or Jey Uso. Think he's drawing that number? No. Flair drew tons of money for Jim Crockett promotions and was easily the most successful draw in his era. Hogan gets the nod because he had a machine behind him with merchandise, cartoons, and wrestling dolls. Flair was a wresting draw that drew fans because of his matches, not his t-shirt sales.

    And Flair would not do the job to Cena in this scenario. To prove who's the greatest of all time, this goes to Flair, because Flair doesn't buckle under Winner Takes All scenarios like Cena does. Cena was 'fired' because of a high stakes loss, he also lost a 'Once in a Lifetime' match with The Rock, a chance at MITB and to face Rock again, and numerous times to CM Punk.

    Flair came through when it counted. He beat Vader for the WCW title when Vader was as dominant as he'd ever been, pinned Hogan and Savage clean in WCW, and submitted a dude named Carlito for an IC title win in his MID 50's. Carlito beat Cena in his debut match, by the way.

    So you fan boys keep voting Cena, but know that you're voting with no merit to your argument whatsoever, and that you've managed to make being wrestling fans even more shameful than it already is to society.
     
    #50
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