Can TNA Learn From WCW's Mistakes/History?

[TheHitMark-SirJoseOle]

The thing people seem to forget is that when WCW went after Hall and Nash, it worked because Hall and Nash fitted in WCW.

Hmmm, hate to be a dick but I am just going to ask you point blank and bluntly...how old are you, were you actually old enough to remember what pro wrestling was like in the early-mid 1990s? And I am talking about both sides. I am not intending on singling out WWF or WCW (if we want to stick to the big two)?

They were no non-sense big tough guys, not a bunch of cartoonish clowns.

Oh there is no disputing the amount of rehashed or lame antics that ensued in WCW, but are you going to say the World Wrestling Federation was even better? You want to talk about cartoonish clowns, let us get the WWF's roll call out here, shan't we? These characters that I will show you pre-date the boom periods for both WWF and WCW even though both companies still had some crappy gimmicks even during their best times, however let's stick to pre-July of 1996 (the nWo's inception and Austin 3:16 being born).

​

There can't be anything cartoonish or clownish about this virtual list of who's who or better yet should I say "who cares"?

In the early 90s, WCW had tried to bring in a WWF flavor to their company by bringing Hulkamania and guys like Hacksaw Duggan, Honkey Tonk Man, etc...but WCW fans rejected all of this and the ratings were not that great.

Yes I will admit that many of the gimmicks that game along with Hogan's jump weren't that great but also several that happened before Hogan's jump weren't anything special either but let's not split hairs here, WWF and WCW both offered mediocrity and cheesiness beyond any description during this time frame.

Again take a look at just the top row above none of those characters had been around during Hogan's foray into WCW. The Guardian Angel (a gimmick Ray Traylor took on because "The Boss" was considered too similar to The Big Boss Man and WWF threatened to sue supposedly eventually morphed into Big Bubba Rogers, Traylor's gimmick when he was working in JCP YEARS before even going to the WWF in the first place, can't blame Hogan for that now can ya?) and then of course The Shockmaster....something that guys like Hogan had nothing to do with. Now I will admit the bottom row of characters like The Shark, Zodiac, Yeti and Glacier were all pretty rancid but then again can you say that Garbagemen, Hog Farmers, Plumbers and Hockey Players to name just a few were any better and more inventive of gimmicks? Seriously!!!

Also, I don't know about your concept of time but I think it's best to say that this time frame you speak of with all these former WWF guys jumping ship in exodus was the mid-90s. Hogan's WCW debut did not occur until the middle of 1994 and soon after the others that had WWF fame followed. If you're still not convinced that WCW still did not have ANY success prior to the return of Hall and Nash, please see the following chart.

​

Now there were nice WCW had more viewers than WWF and vice versa but the ratings were also close on several occasions. Basically it's like this wrestling was struggling at that time, it was doing well enough but the world of wrestling wasn't really catching fire again until you had moments like the Austin 3:16 coronation and the nWo formation. So let's not kid ourselves and just single out WCW during this time for being "clownish"...yes the Hogan and Savage vs Alliance To End Hulkamania match at UnCensored 96 blew balls but Triple H and Henry Godwinn in a hog pen match did nothing to revolutionize the business either, let's not kid ourselves.

It's only when WCW got guys that could fit into the WCW feel of toughness and realism that it caught fire.

Fair point there but at the same time WCW didn't hurt in having those first couple years with Hogan in the red and yellow for a bit to build up to the nWo eventually. WCW wasn't in the shitter just because it had some questionable gimmicks prior to the nWo.

Personally speaking I just think wrestling is in a creative doldrum and will be for a while but history has shown that it can escape it, after all the nWo and WWF Attitude births in wrestling brought a new wave of success that had not been seen since the golden age of the 80s. With the fact that cable TV and Pay Per View were bigger and the internet was on the rise the second golden age of wrestling was able to just explode beyond what was seen before.

Who knows what the future holds? Even with WWE not reaching the numbers it was years and years ago they still do well despite what some people panic about these days with PG and lower ratings. Despite TNA's status as distance second they've been around for almost a decade, much better than what attempts like World Wrestling All Stars and Jimmy Hart's XWF were. I can't say I know for sure how long TNA will be around but who knows, none of us can accurately predict this, we can only guess. Period.

 

[Xumer]

I want to start off saying that my memory is SHIT these days so forgive me if I get somethings wrong. I also want to point out that I was always a NWA/WCW mark over WWF(E) and to some lesser extent I want TNA to be a real threat to WWE because Vince only puts out when he is forced too. I am 90% sure that if TNA somehow became a serious threat and the monday night wars began again, Vince and company would snuff out the PG era in a matter of seconds. I also think alot of the TNA heat is simply from WWE marks (watch what happens when the "old washed up" RVD shows up on RAW). With ALL of that said, TNA is putting out a horrible product these days and doing things the WCW way is what got them there. Fact is wcw caught lightening in a bottle with the NWO. It was the right guys at the right time. Everything else sucked. Dungeon of doom sucked, the kiss demon sucked, chucky from child's play sucked, david arquette sucked, even the horsemen sucked (in those days). No one gave a shit about anything other than the NWO, THAT is where the money came in. Fans or the haters either way, they were all there to see what happened this week with the NWO. People can talk about the cruiserweights and other positives that went on but they were all secondary midcard compared to the NWO. If TNA can pull off hiring a few big guys in a matter of weeks between each other, maybe they could pull it off I don't know but just getting one or two big stars won't do it. If they could pull Cena away (not likely) I don't think it would change much. If they could get Cena, Punk, & Orton in a matter of 2 or 3 months apart from debuts, Vince would be in serious trouble but again with contracts, money and loyalty issues, that would never happen. TNA simply cannot do what WCW did to make money but they CAN do what WCW did to LOSE money and that's exactly what they are doing.

 

[Defekt]

Eh man.

TNA already has a great network, and a primetime spot. In fact, they have the same timeslot, on the same network, the WWE had a few years ago.

Secondly, bringing in Cena is likely impossible. Hogan didn't jump ship in the mid 80's when he was on top of the world. He joined WCW in the mid 90's, when steroid allegations, a dwindling fan response, and a new direction for the company, greatly reduced his WWE role.

John Cena is a great talent, but only a huge star because WWE made him one. TNA has the resources to make their own stars.

If anything, trying to recreate the past, and reinvent the NWO angle for the 10,000th time is what killed WCW and drags down TNA.

 

[Xumer]

They don't necessarily need to do the NWO gimmick with any big names they could potentially pull away from WWE. WWE these days only really push the "golden boys" which are mainly Cena, Orton, Punk, and (whenever he feels like it) HHH. If those 3 guys were taken away from the WWE, they would be in trouble because they invested so much in those guys while for the most part ignoring everyone else. The only time they really give monster pushes for other people is to just make it more impressive when they feed them to the top guys.

 

[JAK]

If TNA are to learn from WCW's mistakes then the first thing they'd do is never attempt to sign John Cena. WCW's mistake was running wild with the cheque and giving the newly signed highly paid former WWF talent far to much control over themselves and the direction of WCW. The Hogan/Flair matches and NWO angle were must watch TV when it all started, but eventually the NWO became too big, too controlling and too distorted.

If TNA is to learn from WCW's mistakes it first needs to rid itself of the people who made those mistakes with other peoples money, and then work on delivering a consistant product that pushes fans towards buying PPV's merch and house show tickets.

It's unlikely that Hogan and Bischoff, and maybe even Russo, need to work for TNA - at least two of them must have more money than they know what to do with it, so TNA is nothing more than a vanity project for them, a way to get that buzz from being on TV or having your work on TV. If TNA fails because of their influences they'll just find a way to put the blame on others, after all you don't see Bischoff and Hogan going around admitting they were responsible for the eventual death of WCW.

It's not a case of Can, it's a case of Must - butuntil the person at the top with the cheque book realises there is a serious risk that TNA will fail eventually.

 

[dsotm5150]

When and if TNA ever gets to where WCW was and should have stayed the mistakes that they need to avoid are:

1. Don't worry about what your competitor is doing, worry about what YOUR fans. Should you pay attention to your competition yes, but let them do your thing, and you do yours, don't base your show off of them.

2. Be smart with your money, if you got the cash, by all means spend it, but spend it wisely.

3. Don't let the inmates run the asylum. Should wrestlers be given the time and day to voice their opinions and ideas for the product. By all means yes, after all they are the ones out in front of the fans night in and night out and should have a pretty good idea of what the fans want to see out of the product, but don't put an active wrestler in charge of the booking/writing side of the product, listen to their ideas, take them into account, but TNA does not need to give anybody creative control over the product.

4 Build new talent, As opposed to the 80s, 90s and 2000s where stars that had been in the business anywhere from 10 - 30 years were still big draws and could still go relatively well, most performers are not looking to make a career out of wrestling anymore. Most are sticking around for maybe 10 years if that and building a name for themselves and branching out into other things like acting, modeling, other sports etc. So you have to constantly be building your talent base so that you have a new guy ready to go at any given time. I think even the WWE should be and is starting to somewhat pay attention to the fact that you cant rely on just your veterans to carry the main event.

5. Stay away from/stop recycling old story lines - Now I realize that when it all comes down to it, there is no way to get away from the age old tried and true method of good versus evil, but there is no reason to constantly rehash an old storyline. Be creative, thats what you have a writing team for, use them!

 

[mlp420]

Same shit over and over. Push this guy, stop pushing that guy. Have more of this, have less of that. WCW, Bischoff, Hogan, be wrestling and not sports entertainment, blah blah blah.

The thing is, people look at RAW's 3.0s (dropping to 2s lately by the way) and assume that's where TNA should automatically be because they're both wrestling shows. But if that's the case, why can't Smackdown match RAW's ratings? They've had several live specials featuring RAW stars like Cena, HHH and Punk that failed to even come close to RAW's ratings. They've been heavily featuring Smackdown stars and angles on RAW for a while now, and even that's not working. But for some reason, nobody seems to talk about that.

And then people talk about stagnant ratings. "Well TNA gets the same 1.0 they've always gotten and they brought in Hogan, Sting, Flair, ect." Okay, but in that same time period WWE Raw went from averaging a 3.81 in 2005 to a 3.21 in 2011. Smackdown averaged 3.04 in 2005 and averaged a 1.95 last year. That's a HUGE decline. Yes, TNA hasn't been able to increase their viewership, but WWE is worse, they're losing loads of viewers.

To stay on topic, this whole "TNA should learn from WCW's mistake" mantra doesn't make sense to me. It usually comes up when the "Originals" aren't being pushed to someone's liking. It's funny when people complain about who's getting pushed and who isn't, try to tie it in with the ratings, and then they're mystified when the people they like finally get pushed (CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Zach Ryder ) and ratings go down. I believe the concept of top stars in pro wrestling is overrated anyway. Remember, the Attitude Era thrived with (98-99) and without (2000) Steve Austin.

 

[New Hot Fed]

Hmmm, hate to be a dick but I am just going to ask you point blank and bluntly...how old are you, were you actually old enough to remember what pro wrestling was like in the early-mid 1990s? And I am talking about both sides. I am not intending on singling out WWF or WCW (if we want to stick to the big two)?



Oh there is no disputing the amount of rehashed or lame antics that ensued in WCW, but are you going to say the World Wrestling Federation was even better? You want to talk about cartoonish clowns, let us get the WWF's roll call out here, shan't we? These characters that I will show you pre-date the boom periods for both WWF and WCW even though both companies still had some crappy gimmicks even during their best times, however let's stick to pre-July of 1996 (the nWo's inception and Austin 3:16 being born).

​

There can't be anything cartoonish or clownish about this virtual list of who's who or better yet should I say "who cares"?



Yes I will admit that many of the gimmicks that game along with Hogan's jump weren't that great but also several that happened before Hogan's jump weren't anything special either but let's not split hairs here, WWF and WCW both offered mediocrity and cheesiness beyond any description during this time frame.

Again take a look at just the top row above none of those characters had been around during Hogan's foray into WCW. The Guardian Angel (a gimmick Ray Traylor took on because "The Boss" was considered too similar to The Big Boss Man and WWF threatened to sue supposedly eventually morphed into Big Bubba Rogers, Traylor's gimmick when he was working in JCP YEARS before even going to the WWF in the first place, can't blame Hogan for that now can ya?) and then of course The Shockmaster....something that guys like Hogan had nothing to do with. Now I will admit the bottom row of characters like The Shark, Zodiac, Yeti and Glacier were all pretty rancid but then again can you say that Garbagemen, Hog Farmers, Plumbers and Hockey Players to name just a few were any better and more inventive of gimmicks? Seriously!!!

Also, I don't know about your concept of time but I think it's best to say that this time frame you speak of with all these former WWF guys jumping ship in exodus was the mid-90s. Hogan's WCW debut did not occur until the middle of 1994 and soon after the others that had WWF fame followed. If you're still not convinced that WCW still did not have ANY success prior to the return of Hall and Nash, please see the following chart.

​

Now there were nice WCW had more viewers than WWF and vice versa but the ratings were also close on several occasions. Basically it's like this wrestling was struggling at that time, it was doing well enough but the world of wrestling wasn't really catching fire again until you had moments like the Austin 3:16 coronation and the nWo formation. So let's not kid ourselves and just single out WCW during this time for being "clownish"...yes the Hogan and Savage vs Alliance To End Hulkamania match at UnCensored 96 blew balls but Triple H and Henry Godwinn in a hog pen match did nothing to revolutionize the business either, let's not kid ourselves.




Fair point there but at the same time WCW didn't hurt in having those first couple years with Hogan in the red and yellow for a bit to build up to the nWo eventually. WCW wasn't in the shitter just because it had some questionable gimmicks prior to the nWo.

Personally speaking I just think wrestling is in a creative doldrum and will be for a while but history has shown that it can escape it, after all the nWo and WWF Attitude births in wrestling brought a new wave of success that had not been seen since the golden age of the 80s. With the fact that cable TV and Pay Per View were bigger and the internet was on the rise the second golden age of wrestling was able to just explode beyond what was seen before.

Who knows what the future holds? Even with WWE not reaching the numbers it was years and years ago they still do well despite what some people panic about these days with PG and lower ratings. Despite TNA's status as distance second they've been around for almost a decade, much better than what attempts like World Wrestling All Stars and Jimmy Hart's XWF were. I can't say I know for sure how long TNA will be around but who knows, none of us can accurately predict this, we can only guess. Period.

I'm just saying the idea of bringing stars just for the sake of it, doesn't automatically work. People say "oh bring in Cena and everything will magically take care of itself". But when WCW brough Hogan and his Circus it was rejected by WCW fans, people were booing Hogan, the houseshow attendances were average. It caught fire when Nash and Hall joined because they were the right guys to crossover. They had a no non-sense attitude. The nWo was like a revised more interesting Four Horsemen, WCW fans were used to having top heel groups on top and they liked it.